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Lundina Gothorum- Cathedral

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  • Bertil Häggman
    F.X., Thank you for bringing up the Lund Cathedral, one of the best preserved church constructions in Northern Europe. Lund is situated in the Province of
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 31 3:21 AM
      F.X.,

      Thank you for bringing up the Lund Cathedral,
      one of the best preserved church constructions
      in Northern Europe. Lund is situated in the Province
      of Scania in southern Sweden.

      There was probably an older church where the
      present cathedral stands. This was
      constructed under King Svend Estridsen (1047-74)
      and was a stone church of English type.
      There were at this time close connection between
      Denmark and England (Scania was a that time a
      Danish province, the main part of what was called
      East Denmark).

      In 1060 Lund became the seat of a bishop. Around
      1085 the present cathedral was started. In 1103 after
      a decision in Rome Lund became the seat of an
      archbishop over Denmark, Scania, Halland,
      Blekinge, Schleswig-Holstein, Ruegen and Estonia.
      The altar was dedicated in 1123. I must however
      as you do, that the basilica is of typical Roman style,
      not Gothic style.

      More later. Do you have any specific questions?

      The giant figure is supposed to be a heathen giant,
      Finn. The woman is Finn's wife, with whom he had
      two children, Gerda and Soelve.

      Gothically

      Bertil

      > I am researching the relationship of Visigothic architecture with
      > architecture in the rest of Europe and I have run into a wall of
      > inconsistency as concerns the date for the (start of construction) of
      > the Cathedral of Lund in (of course) - ["Lundina Gothorum"(per- Great
      > Larousse)]. In general, I have not been able to find much on this very
      > early treasure of the Romanesque. The dates that I have been able to
      > find are not in agreement between sources.
      >
      > Also, do you or anyone else have any facts/information concerning a
      > purported colossal carving of a giant figure on one of the pilars of the
      > Cathedral of Lund which is flanked by another pillar of a woman holding
      > an infant? Supposedly there is an official story behind it and I am
      > wondering if anyone might know of it.
      >
      > It is too early to reveal how all these items may be linked, and it may
      > prove to be more conclussive to my thesis if nothing is said at this
      > time but I will be more than grateful for any information.
    • hakan36@spray.se
      ... Hails Fridhunandhs! It´s funny when you say this because I am sitting in that very city right now. Looking to the south I can see the two towers of the
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 3, 2001
        --- In gothic-l@y..., Bertil Häggman <mvk575b@t...> wrote:

        Hails Fridhunandhs!

        It´s funny when you say this because I am sitting in that very city
        right now. Looking to the south I can see the two towers of the dome
        showing themselves all over the Lunda-plain tens of kilometers in all
        directions. Lund was founded by Canute the great in the end of the
        1000 c. It replaced an even older marketplace and village at Uppåkra
        or Uppakra as it may have been called at this time. Recently, the
        latest five years, the ten meter high and 80 x 200 m ridge has been
        excavated. The finds date all the way back to around the year 0.
        Roman coins and artefacts have been found from the 100, 200 and the
        300 c. The earliest finds dates back from a hundred years before
        B.C.

        The cathedral or dome in Lund was probably built on a church by Sven
        and a smaller cathedral built by Canute the saint(Knut den helige)
        around 1080. Then Lund became archbishopcenter for all the nordic
        countries in 1103, a grand rebuilding began to construct a entire new
        cathedral. The apse and the crypt are thought to have been construct-
        ed first. The work was led by northitalian masters. The most famous
        by the name of Donatus. The western part with its two towers in nor-
        mandic style was probably constructed in the late 12th c.

        In the crypt you can also find the figure of a man embracing a stone-
        pillar. In folk-tales known as the giant Finn. A old folk-tale from
        Lund says that the man pictured in stone in the crypt, is the giant
        Finn. Ackording to the poet and bishop in Lund, Esaias Tegnèr, this
        happened to him because of his quarrel with the saint Laurentius
        (sankt Laurents). His poem is probably built on older myths he has
        heard in Lund and goes something like this. At the helgona-hill
        (helgonabacken)in northern Lund, there lived a giant in a cave
        underneath that was called Finn. Saint Laurentius came here from
        Saxony(Saxland). He had a great problem, he had no church to preach
        in. The giant heard his mourning and said that he would build the
        church if the saint could say hi´s name when the cathedral was
        finished. But if the saint wasn´t able to say hi´s name then he would
        like to have hi´s two eyes so he had to decline from both the moon
        and the sun. The building progressed quickly as the giant took stone
        from the nearby Romeleklint. The saint now became ancious for both
        his eyes and that he wouldn´t be able to see either the sun or the
        moon. The day the cathedral would be finished, he was striding
        around the slope where the giant had his nest. Then he hears a song,
        a rare one that came from the earth:"Sleep little Sölve, sleep my
        son! Your father Finn lays bricks above. Sleep little Gerda, my
        pretty girl! Your father comes in the evening with the gift." The
        saint Laurentius or Lars, in Scandinavia, immediately runs to the
        churchbuilding and says:"Hey Finn, Finn, Finn, come down from the
        high tower. In the tower there is missing one stone only, it can be
        put in later but god has preserved my eyes!" The giant admits that
        his is Finn and he is of a giant-family. He swears that the last
        stone will not be easily laid and an eternal ruin outside and inside,
        it never will be finished. The giant runs down into the crypt to tear
        down the foundation-pillar beginning in the crypt. The cathedral
        starts to shake and it´s fall seems imminent then the giant is
        suddenly transformed into stone. And ever after there is always
        something missing on the dome and to this Finn can be blamed and not
        the church-council..Another version say that it is Samson.

        On a supporting pillar that used to be outside the cathedral until
        1870ies Adam van Duren, wrote a inscription. He was the building
        master 1513-27. On it you can read his chocked impression of the
        danish civil-war, raging around 1524-25. It´s biggest final was the
        clash just outside the southern gates of Lund between the forces of
        the dethroned King Christian II:s Sören Norby and Hvide with 900
        soldiers, cavalrymen and 3000 badly armed peasants, and 1400
        cavalrymen, 900 soldiers and artillerypieces of Fredrik I:s commander
        Krabbe and General Rantzau. The artillery soon made people flee in
        crowds. The fleeing soldiers and peasants were cut down on a large
        scale. Adam van Duren wrote about the aftermath, maybe a little
        influenced by platt-german, but in danish: "Då man skrev år 1525
        fredagen efter S:t Marcus dag skete ved Lund stor jammer. Der blev
        over 1500 skudt ihjel och slagne. Det monne de skånske kvinder vel
        klage over. Gud hjelpe Adams börn. Begyndelsen er let gjort, men
        avslutningen besverlig." Then you wrote the year 1525 the friday
        after saint Mark´s day(28th of april)happened at Lund a big misery.
        There became over 1500 shot to death and beatened. That may the
        skånish women well mourn about. God help Adam´s children. The
        begining is easily done, but the finish is troublesome.


        Greetings from



        Håkan Liljeberg


        > Thank you for bringing up the Lund Cathedral,
        > one of the best preserved church constructions
        > in Northern Europe. Lund is situated in the Province
        > of Scania in southern Sweden.
        >
        > There was probably an older church where the
        > present cathedral stands. This was
        > constructed under King Svend Estridsen (1047-74)
        > and was a stone church of English type.
        > There were at this time close connection between
        > Denmark and England (Scania was a that time a
        > Danish province, the main part of what was called
        > East Denmark).
        >
        > In 1060 Lund became the seat of a bishop. Around
        > 1085 the present cathedral was started. In 1103 after
        > a decision in Rome Lund became the seat of an
        > archbishop over Denmark, Scania, Halland,
        > Blekinge, Schleswig-Holstein, Ruegen and Estonia.
        > The altar was dedicated in 1123. I must however
        > as you do, that the basilica is of typical Roman style,
        > not Gothic style.
        >
        > More later. Do you have any specific questions?
        >
        > The giant figure is supposed to be a heathen giant,
        > Finn. The woman is Finn's wife, with whom he had
        > two children, Gerda and Soelve.
        >
        > Gothically
        >
        > Bertil
        >
        > > I am researching the relationship of Visigothic architecture with
        > > architecture in the rest of Europe and I have run into a wall of
        > > inconsistency as concerns the date for the (start of
        construction) of
        > > the Cathedral of Lund in (of course) - ["Lundina Gothorum"(per-
        Great
        > > Larousse)]. In general, I have not been able to find much on this
        very
        > > early treasure of the Romanesque. The dates that I have been able
        to
        > > find are not in agreement between sources.
        > >
        > > Also, do you or anyone else have any facts/information concerning
        a
        > > purported colossal carving of a giant figure on one of the pilars
        of the
        > > Cathedral of Lund which is flanked by another pillar of a woman
        holding
        > > an infant? Supposedly there is an official story behind it and I
        am
        > > wondering if anyone might know of it.
        > >
        > > It is too early to reveal how all these items may be linked, and
        it may
        > > prove to be more conclussive to my thesis if nothing is said at
        this
        > > time but I will be more than grateful for any information.
      • Friþunanþs Ximeneiks - Fernando E. Xi
        Bertil and Hakan, Thank you for your response as concerns the cathedral of Lundina Gothorum. Excellent observations and descriptions. The Finn story is superb.
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 3, 2001
          Bertil and Hakan,

          Thank you for your response as concerns the cathedral of Lundina
          Gothorum.
          Excellent observations and descriptions. The Finn story is superb.

          If I understand the posts correctly- you both state that the present
          cathedral seems to be built over an earlier building dating to about the
          reign of (Knut der Helige- per Hakan) and/or (Svend Estridsen -1047-74
          an English-type church- per Bertil). There seems to be a discrepancy in
          possibly dates/reigns here- any thoughts?

          What is of interest in my opinion, is to which of the building programs
          belongs the Finn columns. The latter is something I have not been able
          to discern from what items are available to me at present. Perhaps one
          of you (or some of the other list members) has something to add
          concerning the latter.

          (IMO) - The story of Finn is of extreme interest since it seems to be a
          statement of how the builders identify themselves. (A great and powerful
          giant) defeated somewhat by chance but whose memory has been kept alive
          in the new "Christian" space. - The fact that it references the heathen
          origins of that Christian space is significant.

          Chapels in the Pyrenees Mountains of Spain and France preserve in their
          'capitals' (columns) many carvings which do not seem to be Christian
          religious allegories, in fact, the latter seemingly show some aspects of
          Nordic Mythology. I am presently involved in researching the latter.
          Thus, my interest in the Lund Cathedral.

          There are many items which are certainly of great interest as concerns
          Lund. One such may be the (partitioning of spaces). As I have already
          stated in a prior post the partitioning of spaces is generally agreed
          (by scholars) to be a distinctive characteristic of Visigothic
          construction (esp. chapels) in Spain. Interestingly, according to Gerard
          de Sede there is a consistent relationship of the spaces, number of
          columns in the nave, number of columns in the transept and crypt in
          which he believes is evident an underlying connection to the numbers of
          gods and numerology of the old Nordic pantheon. I know this seems far
          fetched, there have been a plethora of individuals that have implicated
          all kinds of connections to all sorts of ridiculous things, but then
          again, the Greeks were heavily influenced by the Golden Section << 1.813
          >> which can be seen in most of their architectural programs, e.g.. the
          Parthenon etc.... If De Sede's proposition bears out it may have
          interesting implications.

          Of interest also is Adam van Düren's inscription, which, from what
          information I have seems to be runic like; Am I to understand Van
          Düren's inscription was made during the period of (1513-27). I have
          taken the liberty of sending a graphic of same. There are supposedly
          many other masons marks some apparently thought to be exclusively runic.
          Supposedly, a double othal can be seen on one of the altar's lintels.
          Obviously, it is well known that mason's marks often appear to have
          runic like elements. I think that the latter is, (most times), accounted
          for by the fact that the nature of the material being incised, (stone)
          lends itself to those types of incisions; I wonder though how far one
          can take such explanations when technology was available to make curved
          lines as is evident here. Perhaps a matter of conserving "time"?

          [Image]
          Adam van Düren's purported inscription (De Sede)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bertil Häggman
          Fernando, Have been busy preparing for a seminar in Malmoe on the 7th (not far from Lund). and found your mail on my list of mails to be answered. Am referring
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 8, 2001
            Fernando,

            Have been busy preparing for a seminar
            in Malmoe on the 7th (not far from Lund).
            and found your mail on my list of mails to
            be answered.

            Am referring to archaeological excavations
            during the 1940s and 1950s concerning the
            dating 1047-1074 but there might well have
            been later evidence in modern digs, so if Haakan would
            like to elaborate, I think that would be interesting.

            The crypt, with Finn, is as far as I understand created
            by the first architect Donatus and is from 1123 and it
            has been in uses since that. The Lund archbishops are
            buried here with magnificent grave monuments. The
            foremost is said to be that of Archbishop Birger
            Gunnersen created by Adam von Dueren in 1512.

            More to come.

            Gothically

            Bertil

            > Thank you for your response as concerns the cathedral of Lundina
            > Gothorum.
            > Excellent observations and descriptions. The Finn story is superb.
            >
            > If I understand the posts correctly- you both state that the present
            > cathedral seems to be built over an earlier building dating to about the
            > reign of (Knut der Helige- per Hakan) and/or (Svend Estridsen -1047-74
            > an English-type church- per Bertil). There seems to be a discrepancy in
            > possibly dates/reigns here- any thoughts?
            >
            > What is of interest in my opinion, is to which of the building programs
            > belongs the Finn columns. The latter is something I have not been able
            > to discern from what items are available to me at present. Perhaps one
            > of you (or some of the other list members) has something to add
            > concerning the latter.
            >
            > (IMO) - The story of Finn is of extreme interest since it seems to be a
            > statement of how the builders identify themselves. (A great and powerful
            > giant) defeated somewhat by chance but whose memory has been kept alive
            > in the new "Christian" space. - The fact that it references the heathen
            > origins of that Christian space is significant.
            >
            > Chapels in the Pyrenees Mountains of Spain and France preserve in their
            > 'capitals' (columns) many carvings which do not seem to be Christian
            > religious allegories, in fact, the latter seemingly show some aspects of
            > Nordic Mythology. I am presently involved in researching the latter.
            > Thus, my interest in the Lund Cathedral.
            >
            > There are many items which are certainly of great interest as concerns
            > Lund. One such may be the (partitioning of spaces). As I have already
            > stated in a prior post the partitioning of spaces is generally agreed
            > (by scholars) to be a distinctive characteristic of Visigothic
            > construction (esp. chapels) in Spain. Interestingly, according to Gerard
            > de Sede there is a consistent relationship of the spaces, number of
            > columns in the nave, number of columns in the transept and crypt in
            > which he believes is evident an underlying connection to the numbers of
            > gods and numerology of the old Nordic pantheon. I know this seems far
            > fetched, there have been a plethora of individuals that have implicated
            > all kinds of connections to all sorts of ridiculous things, but then
            > again, the Greeks were heavily influenced by the Golden Section << 1.813
            > >> which can be seen in most of their architectural programs, e.g.. the
            > Parthenon etc.... If De Sede's proposition bears out it may have
            > interesting implications.
            >
            > Of interest also is Adam van Düren's inscription, which, from what
            > information I have seems to be runic like; Am I to understand Van
            > Düren's inscription was made during the period of (1513-27). I have
            > taken the liberty of sending a graphic of same. There are supposedly
            > many other masons marks some apparently thought to be exclusively runic.
            > Supposedly, a double othal can be seen on one of the altar's lintels.
            > Obviously, it is well known that mason's marks often appear to have
            > runic like elements. I think that the latter is, (most times), accounted
            > for by the fact that the nature of the material being incised, (stone)
            > lends itself to those types of incisions; I wonder though how far one
            > can take such explanations when technology was available to make curved
            > lines as is evident here. Perhaps a matter of conserving "time"?
          • hakan36@spray.se
            ... Bertil, Refering to the dome of Lund, I saw the references about it in an encyclopedia. It´s from 1987 by Bra böcker. You might very well be right
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 9, 2001
              --- In gothic-l@y..., Bertil Häggman <mvk575b@t...> wrote:

              Bertil,

              Refering to the dome of Lund, I saw the references about it in an
              encyclopedia. It´s from 1987 by Bra böcker. You might very well be
              right Bertil, but I only had this to look up things in. It says that
              a grand rebuilding and reconstructionwork by the considerably smaller
              cathedral that Canute the saint had built around 1080, started in
              1103. You might be right about the church Bertil, because it´s
              unlikely that Sven didn´t build any church in Lund.



              Håkan Liljeberg


              > Fernando,
              >
              > Have been busy preparing for a seminar
              > in Malmoe on the 7th (not far from Lund).
              > and found your mail on my list of mails to
              > be answered.
              >
              > Am referring to archaeological excavations
              > during the 1940s and 1950s concerning the
              > dating 1047-1074 but there might well have
              > been later evidence in modern digs, so if Haakan would
              > like to elaborate, I think that would be interesting.
              >
              > The crypt, with Finn, is as far as I understand created
              > by the first architect Donatus and is from 1123 and it
              > has been in uses since that. The Lund archbishops are
              > buried here with magnificent grave monuments. The
              > foremost is said to be that of Archbishop Birger
              > Gunnersen created by Adam von Dueren in 1512.
              >
              > More to come.
              >
              > Gothically
              >
              > Bertil
              >
              > > Thank you for your response as concerns the cathedral of Lundina
              > > Gothorum.
              > > Excellent observations and descriptions. The Finn story is superb.
              > >
              > > If I understand the posts correctly- you both state that the
              present
              > > cathedral seems to be built over an earlier building dating to
              about the
              > > reign of (Knut der Helige- per Hakan) and/or (Svend Estridsen -
              1047-74
              > > an English-type church- per Bertil). There seems to be a
              discrepancy in
              > > possibly dates/reigns here- any thoughts?
              > >
              > > What is of interest in my opinion, is to which of the building
              programs
              > > belongs the Finn columns. The latter is something I have not been
              able
              > > to discern from what items are available to me at present.
              Perhaps one
              > > of you (or some of the other list members) has something to add
              > > concerning the latter.
              > >
              > > (IMO) - The story of Finn is of extreme interest since it seems
              to be a
              > > statement of how the builders identify themselves. (A great and
              powerful
              > > giant) defeated somewhat by chance but whose memory has been kept
              alive
              > > in the new "Christian" space. - The fact that it references the
              heathen
              > > origins of that Christian space is significant.
              > >
              > > Chapels in the Pyrenees Mountains of Spain and France preserve in
              their
              > > 'capitals' (columns) many carvings which do not seem to be
              Christian
              > > religious allegories, in fact, the latter seemingly show some
              aspects of
              > > Nordic Mythology. I am presently involved in researching the
              latter.
              > > Thus, my interest in the Lund Cathedral.
              > >
              > > There are many items which are certainly of great interest as
              concerns
              > > Lund. One such may be the (partitioning of spaces). As I have
              already
              > > stated in a prior post the partitioning of spaces is generally
              agreed
              > > (by scholars) to be a distinctive characteristic of Visigothic
              > > construction (esp. chapels) in Spain. Interestingly, according to
              Gerard
              > > de Sede there is a consistent relationship of the spaces, number
              of
              > > columns in the nave, number of columns in the transept and crypt
              in
              > > which he believes is evident an underlying connection to the
              numbers of
              > > gods and numerology of the old Nordic pantheon. I know this seems
              far
              > > fetched, there have been a plethora of individuals that have
              implicated
              > > all kinds of connections to all sorts of ridiculous things, but
              then
              > > again, the Greeks were heavily influenced by the Golden Section
              << 1.813
              > > >> which can be seen in most of their architectural programs,
              e.g.. the
              > > Parthenon etc.... If De Sede's proposition bears out it may have
              > > interesting implications.
              > >
              > > Of interest also is Adam van Düren's inscription, which, from what
              > > information I have seems to be runic like; Am I to understand Van
              > > Düren's inscription was made during the period of (1513-27). I
              have
              > > taken the liberty of sending a graphic of same. There are
              supposedly
              > > many other masons marks some apparently thought to be exclusively
              runic.
              > > Supposedly, a double othal can be seen on one of the altar's
              lintels.
              > > Obviously, it is well known that mason's marks often appear to
              have
              > > runic like elements. I think that the latter is, (most times),
              accounted
              > > for by the fact that the nature of the material being incised,
              (stone)
              > > lends itself to those types of incisions; I wonder though how far
              one
              > > can take such explanations when technology was available to make
              curved
              > > lines as is evident here. Perhaps a matter of conserving "time"?
            • bertil
              Haakan, No problem. I thought maybe my info was dated as there may have been later digs with new info possibly moving back the dating a couple centuries. Maybe
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 10, 2001
                Haakan,

                No problem. I thought maybe my info was dated as
                there may have been later digs with new info possibly
                moving back the dating a couple centuries. Maybe somebody
                else will provide additional info.

                With Lundensian greetings

                Bertil

                > Refering to the dome of Lund, I saw the references about it in an
                > encyclopedia. It´s from 1987 by Bra böcker. You might very well be
                > right Bertil, but I only had this to look up things in. It says that
                > a grand rebuilding and reconstructionwork by the considerably smaller
                > cathedral that Canute the saint had built around 1080, started in
                > 1103. You might be right about the church Bertil, because it´s
                > unlikely that Sven didn´t build any church in Lund.
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