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Sarmatians and Goths in Poland

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  • Xoxana@webtv.net
                I learned today of a new indigenist distortion of history I had never heard of before. During the 18th and 19th centuries, many Polish
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 5, 2001
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                  I learned today of a new indigenist
      distortion of history I had never heard of before. During the 18th and
      19th centuries, many Polish nobles entered a romantic cult called
      "Sarmatism." They thought they were the descendents of ancient warriors
      from the steppes called Sarmatians.
                  I knew that the nobility of Poland
      were descended from Goths or vikings, so what about the myth? It turned
      out that some Poles in the 16th century studying the classics at the
      University of Cracow read about the Sarmatians. Herodotus wrote about
      them. They were the closet thing to ancestors of the Poles in his works.
      Some Polish nobles had adopted coats of arms that seemed to be of steppe
      origin.
                  Sarmatians had invaded Poland nearly
      2,000 years ago. But then they were conquered by the Goths. The Goths
      adopted some of the customs of the Sarmatians, and foreigners often had
      difficulty telling them apart.
      The Sarmatians, also known as Alans, were very blond and warlike, just
      like the Goths. So the Polish nobililty were descended from blond
      warriors without any doubt.

                This article describes how the blond Goths
      conquered the blond Sarmatians:
      Blond Alans
      Goths, Sarmatians, and Huns
      Address:
      http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leguin/165/barbarian.html

                      This aritcle tells about
      the develpment of the Sarmatian myth in the 18th and 19th centuries:
      Sarmatian Review XVII.2: Wasko
      Address:
      http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/497/wasko.html Changed:7:41 AM on
      Thursday, July 3, 1997
                    This article is more of the
      same:
      Myth
      Newsletter -- Fall, AS XXXII (1997)
      Address:
      http://slavic.freeservers.com/slovo/news08.html Changed:10:48 PM on
      Saturday, March 4, 2000
                  For hundreds of years, Poland was
      joined with Lithuania. The Lithuanian nobles had a myth of their own,
      that they were actually Romans who emigrated from the Roman Empire. They
      believed that the Romans actually spoke Lithuanian. They also believed
      in the Sarmatian myth.

      Lithuanian Roman myth
      Artium Unitio
      Address:
      http://www.artium.lt/8/cons.html
                It seems that everybody (except northwest
      Europeans) wants to invent a glorious history for themselves.
      http://www.delphi.com/ancientnordics
      http://www.delphi.com/nordichistory1
      http://www.delphi.com/truthseekers8

      http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/AMAZINGNEW
      http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/RamesesTheGreata
    • dirk@smra.co.uk
      ... and ... warriors ... Hi, I am quite sure that also the proposition that the Polish nobility is decended from Goths or Vikings is unfounded. These kind of
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 6, 2001
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        --- In gothic-l@y..., Xoxana@w... wrote:
        >
        >             I learned today of a new indigenist
        > distortion of history I had never heard of before. During the 18th
        and
        > 19th centuries, many Polish nobles entered a romantic cult called
        > "Sarmatism." They thought they were the descendents of ancient
        warriors
        > from the steppes called Sarmatians.
        >             I knew that the nobility of Poland
        > were descended from Goths or vikings, so what about the myth?




        Hi,

        I am quite sure that also the proposition that the Polish nobility is
        decended from Goths or Vikings is unfounded. These kind of myths have
        been invented in the past to give themselves a higher status through
        greater antiquitiy of their origins. Especially in Poland, where at
        times up to one third of the population claimed noble decend including
        many very poor peasants, the emergence of such myths is quite
        understandable as a way to make up for inferior self-esteem.


        (snip)

            Sarmatians had invaded Poland nearly
        > 2,000 years ago. But then they were conquered by the Goths. The
        Goths
        > adopted some of the customs of the Sarmatians, and foreigners often
        had
        > difficulty telling them apart.
        > The Sarmatians, also known as Alans, were very blond and warlike,
        just
        > like the Goths. So the Polish nobililty were descended from blond
        > warriors without any doubt.




        This obsession with blond and warlike ancestors has of course other
        much more sinister parallels as well. Also, I know that the Alans were
        reportedly fair haired and tall - on the other hand as an Iranian
        people I find this somewhat difficult to believe.


        >It seems that everybody (except northwest
        > Europeans) wants to invent a glorious history for
        >themselves.


        Well the British higher nobility once claimed to be decendents of the
        lost tribe of Israel!


        cheers
        Dirk
      • czobor@cantacuzino.ro
        ... were ... ... This is not so difficult to believe. It seems that the primitive Indo-EuropeanS were predominantly fair haired and tall. So were for instance
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 6, 2001
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          --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:

          ...
          >
          > This obsession with blond and warlike ancestors has of course other
          > much more sinister parallels as well. Also, I know that the Alans
          were
          > reportedly fair haired and tall - on the other hand as an Iranian
          > people I find this somewhat difficult to believe.
          >
          ...

          This is not so difficult to believe. It seems that the primitive
          Indo-EuropeanS were predominantly fair haired and tall. So were for
          instance the "Ariyas" who invaded India approx. 1400 BC, or the Old
          Hittites when they invaded Anatolia approx. 1500 BC (?). Fair haired
          and tall were also the Tocharians of today's Chinese Turkestan (at
          least they were described this way by the Chinese). And also fair
          haired and tall were, according to antic authors (not only
          Greco-Roman, but also Chinese), the so called "outer Iranic peoples":
          Scythians (including the Eastern Scythians or Saka of today's Chinese
          Turkestan), Sarmatians, and Alans (and, if I'm not wrong, the
          Ossetians, descendants of an Alanic tribe, are even today in part fair
          haired and tall).

          Francisc

          GUTANI WIHAILAG
        • Xoxana@webtv.net
          It is easy to look at the modern people of Iran and Afghanistan and assume that the ancient Iranians were a swarthy people. This is not true. It is a little
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 6, 2001
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            It is easy to look at the modern people of Iran and Afghanistan and
            assume that the ancient Iranians were a swarthy people. This is not
            true. It is a little known fact that at one time Iranians occupied huge
            tracts of Central Asia, southern Russia, and the Ukraine. The Iranians
            who invaded Iran set up a caste system based on color, just as the
            Aryans did in India. Only the one in Persia didn't last long. The
            Iranians did not originate in Iran. The legends of the ancient Persians
            said that they originated in a land where winters lasted 10 months and
            where darkness lasted for months in the winter. Archaeologists have
            traced the Indo-Aryans to the Andronovo Culture of Kazakhstan and
            Russia. Their physical type was northern European. The Chinese came into
            contact with an Iranian people they called the Yueh-Jï and described
            them as being white with green eyes and red hair. Later, they invaded
            India, where they were known as the Kushans, Ephthalites, or White Huns.
            Ancient sources describe the Alans, or Sarmatians, as being
            yellow-haired.
            The Ossetes of the Caucausus are descendants of the Alans, although most
            of them look like other people of the region today.
            Stalin is believed to have been an Ossete. I read a strange book once
            that claimed that the name Allen comes from Alans who came to Britain.
            I don't know about that.
            http://www.delphi.com/ancientnordics

            http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/AMAZINGNEW
            http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/RamesesTheGreata
          • andreas.schwarcz@univie.ac.at
            Already in the fourth century Alans were settled in Pannonia together with Goths and Huns under the leadership of Alatheus and Saphrac. They served as
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 6, 2001
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              Already in the fourth century Alans were settled in Pannonia
              together with Goths and Huns under the leadership of Alatheus and
              Saphrac. They served as federates and regular soldiers and officers
              f.i. in the armies of Gratianus, Theodosius I and Stilicho. Groups of
              Alans were also settled in Italy and Gaul. The French name Alain
              has its roots in Alanus und Allen is the English form of it.
              Cf. Bernard S. Bachrach, A History of the Alans in the West.
              Minneapolis 1973.
              Regards
              Andreas Schwarcz
              Ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
              Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
              Universität Wien
              Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
              A-1010 Wien
              Österreich
              Tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
              Fax 0043/142-77/92-72
            • hakan36@spray.se
              ... 18th ... is ... have ... through ... including ... often ... were ... the ... Hi! Once I read a book, a novel, in Poland a well-known book from
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 6, 2001
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                --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                > --- In gothic-l@y..., Xoxana@w... wrote:
                > >
                > >             I learned today of a new indigenist
                > > distortion of history I had never heard of before. During the
                18th
                > and
                > > 19th centuries, many Polish nobles entered a romantic cult called
                > > "Sarmatism." They thought they were the descendents of ancient
                > warriors
                > > from the steppes called Sarmatians.
                > >             I knew that the nobility of Poland
                > > were descended from Goths or vikings, so what about the myth?
                >
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > I am quite sure that also the proposition that the Polish nobility
                is
                > decended from Goths or Vikings is unfounded. These kind of myths
                have
                > been invented in the past to give themselves a higher status
                through
                > greater antiquitiy of their origins. Especially in Poland, where at
                > times up to one third of the population claimed noble decend
                including
                > many very poor peasants, the emergence of such myths is quite
                > understandable as a way to make up for inferior self-esteem.
                >
                >
                > (snip)
                >
                >     Sarmatians had invaded Poland nearly
                > > 2,000 years ago. But then they were conquered by the Goths. The
                > Goths
                > > adopted some of the customs of the Sarmatians, and foreigners
                often
                > had
                > > difficulty telling them apart.
                > > The Sarmatians, also known as Alans, were very blond and warlike,
                > just
                > > like the Goths. So the Polish nobililty were descended from blond
                > > warriors without any doubt.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > This obsession with blond and warlike ancestors has of course other
                > much more sinister parallels as well. Also, I know that the Alans
                were
                > reportedly fair haired and tall - on the other hand as an Iranian
                > people I find this somewhat difficult to believe.
                >
                >
                > >It seems that everybody (except northwest
                > > Europeans) wants to invent a glorious history for
                > >themselves.
                >
                >
                > Well the British higher nobility once claimed to be decendents of
                the
                > lost tribe of Israel!
                >

                Hi!
                Once I read a book, a novel, in Poland a well-known book from
                nationalromantic period in the beginning of the 20th c, by Henryk
                Sienkiewicz. It´s called "Potop" or the "flood" in english. It´s
                about the 1650ies in Poland and the nationalistic nobelmens effort to
                push out a invading army from a well-known nordic country. There in a
                bysentence you are allowed to follow the swordfencing nobelman
                Michael Volodjovsky´s thoughts. And the story goes approximately like
                this:"and as a nobelman from the slachta(nobility-class), he not only
                had to learn the art of sword-fencing, but must also learn latin and
                gothic. But he wasn´t very interested in books". In books and films,
                especially the nobility is often depicted as being blond.

                I wonder if it was a myth during the nationalromantic period or did
                the polish noblemen in general, until the 17th c also speak gothic.
                And if they did that, why did they do that?


                Håkan Liljeberg
              • dirk@smra.co.uk
                ... and ... huge ... Iranians ... Persians ... and ... into ... invaded ... Huns. ... most ... Hello, well, it is no secret that Stalin was a Georgian, his
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 7, 2001
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                  --- In gothic-l@y..., Xoxana@w... wrote:
                  > It is easy to look at the modern people of Iran and Afghanistan
                  and
                  > assume that the ancient Iranians were a swarthy people. This is not
                  > true. It is a little known fact that at one time Iranians occupied
                  huge
                  > tracts of Central Asia, southern Russia, and the Ukraine. The
                  Iranians
                  > who invaded Iran set up a caste system based on color, just as the
                  > Aryans did in India. Only the one in Persia didn't last long. The
                  > Iranians did not originate in Iran. The legends of the ancient
                  Persians
                  > said that they originated in a land where winters lasted 10 months
                  and
                  > where darkness lasted for months in the winter. Archaeologists have
                  > traced the Indo-Aryans to the Andronovo Culture of Kazakhstan and
                  > Russia. Their physical type was northern European. The Chinese came
                  into
                  > contact with an Iranian people they called the Yueh-Jï and described
                  > them as being white with green eyes and red hair. Later, they
                  invaded
                  > India, where they were known as the Kushans, Ephthalites, or White
                  Huns.
                  > Ancient sources describe the Alans, or Sarmatians, as being
                  > yellow-haired.
                  > The Ossetes of the Caucausus are descendants of the Alans, although
                  most
                  > of them look like other people of the region today.
                  > Stalin is believed to have been an Ossete.


                  Hello,

                  well, it is no secret that Stalin was a Georgian, his real name was
                  Iosef Wissarionovitch Shchugashvilli, which is - if you ask the people
                  of the area - a far cry from being an Ossete.

                  Also, I spend some time in the Caucasus and did not encounter any fair
                  haired and tall people, except for Russians of course who make up a
                  large part of the population.

                  I guess that is all relative. For a black-haired Greek a
                  dark-brown-haired Sarmatian was perhaps already fair-haired. Overall,
                  it doesn't really matter what hair colour who had. The obsession with
                  blond warriors apparently emerged in the late 19th century Europe and
                  formed a basis for nazism. It apparently goes back to Tacitus'
                  description of the old Germans. Interestingly, before this
                  Germanic-revival, fair-haired men were thought of as 'little sissies'.


                  cheers
                  Dirk
                • dirk@smra.co.uk
                  ... to ... a ... like ... only ... Hi Hakan, there is no chance in the world that the 17th century (or earlier/later) Polish nobility spoke Gothic. I remember
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 7, 2001
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                    >
                    > Hi!
                    > Once I read a book, a novel, in Poland a well-known book from
                    > nationalromantic period in the beginning of the 20th c, by Henryk
                    > Sienkiewicz. It´s called "Potop" or the "flood" in english. It´s
                    > about the 1650ies in Poland and the nationalistic nobelmens effort
                    to
                    > push out a invading army from a well-known nordic country. There in
                    a
                    > bysentence you are allowed to follow the swordfencing nobelman
                    > Michael Volodjovsky´s thoughts. And the story goes approximately
                    like
                    > this:"and as a nobelman from the slachta(nobility-class), he not
                    only
                    > had to learn the art of sword-fencing, but must also learn latin and
                    > gothic. But he wasn´t very interested in books". In books and films,
                    > especially the nobility is often depicted as being blond.
                    >
                    > I wonder if it was a myth during the nationalromantic period or did
                    > the polish noblemen in general, until the 17th c also speak gothic.
                    > And if they did that, why did they do that?
                    >
                    >
                    > Håkan Liljeberg


                    Hi Hakan,

                    there is no chance in the world that the 17th century (or
                    earlier/later) Polish nobility spoke Gothic. I remember that when in
                    the 13th and 14th century the German order knights conquered the land
                    of the Prussians and Masovia, a Polish chronicler spoke of the threat
                    of the Goths, thus equating Germans with Goths. Also, a German
                    printing script widely used at this time is still called Gothic
                    (Gotische Frakturschrift), maybe he was refering to that. At any rate
                    no Gothic was spoken in 17th century Poland!

                    cheers
                    Dirk
                  • Anthony Appleyard
                    dirk@smra.co.uk wrote:- ... Perhaps accurately sometimes. When there was a famine year, the higher up the social scale, the more they could hog what food there
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 7, 2001
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                      dirk@... wrote:-
                      > ... in Poland, where at times up to one third of the population claimed noble
                      > descent including many very poor peasants ...

                      Perhaps accurately sometimes. When there was a famine year, the higher up the
                      social scale, the more they could hog what food there was and so leave more
                      surviving descendants than those below them. That would mean steadily more
                      nobility and less peasants as time passed. But the land can only support a
                      given percentage of nobility, so the surplus would have to go down the social
                      scale, as in the type of traditional fairy story centered on a younger son of
                      a noble having to go out into the world to seek his fortune.
                    • dirk@smra.co.uk
                      ... claimed noble ... higher up the ... leave more ... steadily more ... support a ... the social ... younger son of ... Hi Anthony, very briefly because this
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 7, 2001
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                        --- In gothic-l@y..., "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2@f...> wrote:
                        > dirk@s... wrote:-
                        > > ... in Poland, where at times up to one third of the population
                        claimed noble
                        > > descent including many very poor peasants ...
                        >
                        > Perhaps accurately sometimes. When there was a famine year, the
                        higher up the
                        > social scale, the more they could hog what food there was and so
                        leave more
                        > surviving descendants than those below them. That would mean
                        steadily more
                        > nobility and less peasants as time passed. But the land can only
                        support a
                        > given percentage of nobility, so the surplus would have to go down
                        the social
                        > scale, as in the type of traditional fairy story centered on a
                        younger son of
                        > a noble having to go out into the world to seek his fortune.


                        Hi Anthony,

                        very briefly because this is going off-list material. Your description
                        sounds convincing at first glance, but I don't think that this really
                        works, i.e. the share of nobility in the population is not rising
                        because the lower classes have a higher death rate, thus forcing
                        noblemen down the social ladder to become peasants as well. In fact
                        noble families had often a higher death rate because of their
                        involvement with military affairs. Often Polish noble families
                        petitioned the king to allow one son to stay behind in the case of war
                        in order to ensure the continuation of the family.

                        Polish nobility was organised according to a very loose Gerp/herp
                        system (literally meaning coat of arms), by which anyone who had the
                        same name would bear the same coat of arms and -for lack of
                        organisation- claim the same social status. As people naturally tend
                        to claim the higher status the number of 'noblemen' rose and we get
                        what in German was often called the Polish 'Ruebenadel' and
                        'Pflasteradel' describing poor Polish peasants and minor town dwellers
                        who claimed noble decent. But I think there was a big difference
                        between those and the 'real' slachtniki'.

                        cheers
                        Dirk
                      • Xoxana@webtv.net
                        Stalin came from the South Ossetian Autonomous Republic of Georgia. Some people say he was an ethnic Ossetian. The name Djugashvili is Georgian, though, at
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 7, 2001
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                          Stalin came from the South Ossetian Autonomous Republic of
                          Georgia. Some people say he was an ethnic Ossetian. The name Djugashvili
                          is Georgian, though, at least the -vili part.
                          You can't distinguish language from race. The ancient Alans were
                          yellow-haired and spoke an Iranian dialect. The Ossetian language is
                          descended from the Alan language.
                          The racial type of the ancient Alans has largely been destroyed by
                          mixture with other types such as Turks and Mongols.
                          It is irrational to use a political or ad hominem argument to make
                          a scholarly point.
                          I have presented evidence that the ancient Iranians were of the northern
                          European type. You don't have any evidence at all on the subject.
                          Name-calling is not evidence. Political diatribes are not logical.
                          I have more evidence of studies of the skulls of ancient Iranians,
                          but I don't think you are interested in facts.
                          http://www.delphi.com/indoeuropean


                          http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/AMAZINGNEW
                          http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/RamesesTheGreata
                        • dirk@smra.co.uk
                          ... Djugashvili ... were ... is ... make ... northern ... Iranians,
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 7, 2001
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                            --- In gothic-l@y..., Xoxana@w... wrote:
                            > Stalin came from the South Ossetian Autonomous Republic of
                            > Georgia. Some people say he was an ethnic Ossetian. The name
                            Djugashvili
                            > is Georgian, though, at least the -vili part.
                            > You can't distinguish language from race. The ancient Alans
                            were
                            > yellow-haired and spoke an Iranian dialect. The Ossetian language
                            is
                            > descended from the Alan language.
                            > The racial type of the ancient Alans has largely been destroyed by
                            > mixture with other types such as Turks and Mongols.
                            > It is irrational to use a political or ad hominem argument to
                            make
                            > a scholarly point.
                            > I have presented evidence that the ancient Iranians were of the
                            northern
                            > European type. You don't have any evidence at all on the subject.
                            > Name-calling is not evidence. Political diatribes are not logical.
                            > I have more evidence of studies of the skulls of ancient
                            Iranians,
                            > but I don't think you are interested in facts.
                            > http://www.delphi.com/indoeuropean
                            >
                            >
                            > http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/AMAZINGNEW
                            > http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/RamesesTheGreata
                          • dirk@smra.co.uk
                            ... Hi again, I am not sure why this is important but we had a South Ossetian Autonomous Region (not republic) within Georgia in Stalin s time, just as a North
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 7, 2001
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                              --- In gothic-l@y..., Xoxana@w... wrote:
                              > Stalin came from the South Ossetian Autonomous Republic of
                              > Georgia.


                              Hi again,

                              I am not sure why this is important but we had a South Ossetian
                              Autonomous Region (not republic) within Georgia in Stalin's time, just
                              as a North Ossetian Autonomous Region (not republic). Only after the
                              fall of the Soviet Union they declared republican status (if I am not
                              mistaken). But this is way off-list.


                              Some people say he was an ethnic Ossetian. The name
                              Djugashvili
                              > is Georgian, though, at least the -vili part.


                              Well, he himself considered himself a Georgian, so did Lenin as he
                              frequently called him the 'Splendid Georgian'. But who knows, much is
                              obscure about his early life.



                              > You can't distinguish language from race.


                              And why not? There are many examples of language shifts in history,
                              when one ethnic group adopted a new language.



                              The ancient Alans
                              were
                              > yellow-haired and spoke an Iranian dialect. The Ossetian language
                              is
                              > descended from the Alan language.
                              > The racial type of the ancient Alans has largely been destroyed by
                              > mixture with other types such as Turks and Mongols.




                              ok, that is certainly possible.



                              > It is irrational to use a political or ad hominem argument to
                              make
                              > a scholarly point.
                              > I have presented evidence that the ancient Iranians were of the
                              northern
                              > European type. You don't have any evidence at all on the subject.



                              I never claimed to have evidence on the subject. I just suggested that
                              the description of 'fair-haired' may depend on the eye of the
                              beholder. Is there any evidence apart from ancient authors
                              describtion? i.e. archaeological finds?




                              > Name-calling is not evidence. Political diatribes are not logical.
                              > I have more evidence of studies of the skulls of ancient
                              Iranians,
                              > but I don't think you are interested in facts.


                              I am always interested in facts


                              cheers
                              Dirk
                            • czobor@cantacuzino.ro
                              ... just ... not ... Indeed, it is way off-list, but I want to make a little correction: There was indeed a South Ossetian Autonomous REGION within the
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 7, 2001
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                                --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                                ...
                                > I am not sure why this is important but we had a South Ossetian
                                > Autonomous Region (not republic) within Georgia in Stalin's time,
                                just
                                > as a North Ossetian Autonomous Region (not republic). Only after the
                                > fall of the Soviet Union they declared republican status (if I am
                                not
                                > mistaken). But this is way off-list.

                                Indeed, it is way off-list, but I want to make a little correction:
                                There was indeed a South Ossetian Autonomous REGION within the
                                Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, but it was a North Ossetian
                                Autonomous REPUBLIC in the frame of the Russian Socialist Federative
                                Soviet Republic. I know this very exactly, because I visited the zone
                                in the time of the USSR. And it was then when I saw in the capital of
                                Northern Ossetia (at that time it was called Ordjonikidze) a lot of
                                fair haired children playing in the streets, that I assumed at that
                                moment that they were Ossetian. But maybe is right the list-member who
                                said that the fair haired people of Ossetia are in fact Russian
                                colonists.

                                > Some people say he was an ethnic Ossetian. The name
                                > Djugashvili
                                > > is Georgian, though, at least the -vili part.
                                >
                                >
                                > Well, he himself considered himself a Georgian, so did Lenin as he
                                > frequently called him the 'Splendid Georgian'. But who knows, much
                                is
                                > obscure about his early life.
                                >

                                Stalin was Orthodox Christian (in his youth he was a student of a
                                Orthodox Priest's School). Georgians are Orthodox Christians, while
                                Ossetians are Muslims. Thus, Stalin was Georgian, he could not be an
                                Ossetian.

                                Francisc
                              • Xoxana@webtv.net
                                What Dirk is basically saying is I don t know anything about the ancient Iranians or about physical anthropology, and I am too lazy to do any research, but I
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 7, 2001
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                                  What Dirk is basically saying is "I don't know anything about the
                                  ancient Iranians or about physical anthropology, and I am too lazy to do
                                  any research, but I still insist that the Alans were dark; and I don't
                                  know anything about the ancient authors who described the Alans, but if
                                  their observations disagree with me, they must have been faulty. I
                                  wasn't there, but if they thought they saw fair hair, I know they were
                                  wrong. They saw dark hair and subjectively thought it was fair."
                                  I only have one bit of information about the modern Ossetes. I am
                                  going to answer Dirk's objections before he even has a chance to make
                                  them. Yes, brain weights are not perfect measurements, but this is all
                                  the evidence I could find. In THE RACES OF MAN, Deniker quotes a study
                                  of brain weights in the Caucasus from "Gilchenko, Congr. Intern. Arch.
                                  préhis., vol. i., p. 183, Moscow, 1892."
                                  Ossetes 1465 grams
                                  Ingush-Chechen 1454 grams
                                  Georgians 1350 grams
                                  Armenians 1369 grams
                                  Elsewhere he gives the European average as 1361 grams, Frenchman as 1359
                                  grams
                                  Scotch 1417 grams "the largest in Europe"
                                  Italians 1308 grams
                                  From this I would conclude that the Ossetes have large brains.
                                  Coon's THE RACES OF EUROPE has some data.
                                  Page 197: "The Alans were the only branch of the Sarmatians to retain
                                  their integrity in face of this Germanic onslaught."
                                  Page 198: "There can be little doubt, even before examining the
                                  skeletal evidence, that the Scythians and Sarmatians were basically if
                                  not entirely white men and in no sense mongoloid. The only definite
                                  description of them which we have from classical literature is that of
                                  Hippocrates, who called them white-skinned and obese, but this
                                  designation was employed by the father of medicine to prove one of his
                                  environmental theories. In later times, the Alans are described as
                                  having golden hair."
                                  Page 199: Speaking of Scythian art: "These faces are strikingly
                                  reminiscent of types common among northwest Europeans today, in strong
                                  contrast to those shown in the art of the Sumerians, Babylonians, and
                                  Hittites, which are definitely Near Eastern. The face, therefore, is
                                  definitely Nordic....Persian representatives of Saka show exactly the
                                  same type, depicted by the followers of an entirely different school of
                                  art, and hence this type cannot have been an unfounded convention.
                                  "There is, in the anthropometric literature, sufficient data to
                                  permit the reconstruction of the Scytho-Sarmatian cranial type or types.
                                  The most extensive group, and that which may be used as a basic series,
                                  is Donici's collection of seventy-seven Scythian crania from kurgans of
                                  Bessarabia, which was one of the favored Scythian pasture lands during
                                  the height of their domination."
                                  "The means of these Scythian skulls show them to be low mesocephals
                                  of moderate cranial dimensions, but with a low vault height. the
                                  cranial means are, in fact, almost identical with those of the Keltic
                                  series from France and the British Isles."
                                  "When the brachycephalic element is eliminated, therefore,one
                                  finds these skulls to be narrower faced, and narrower nosed, and to fit
                                  more nearly into a central European Nordic category. Other series of
                                  Scythian crania from southern Russia and from the Caucasus show the same
                                  general characteristics as that of Donici's type series, but are in most
                                  cases purely dolichocephalic, which leads one to suppose that the
                                  brachycephalic element in the Rumanian skulls may ave been at least
                                  partly of local origin."
                                  Page 200:
                                  "Other collections of Scythian crania vary in their mean cranial
                                  indices from 72 to 77. those from the Kiev government, a Scythian
                                  center, have a mean of 73. A series of eighteen Sarmatian crania from
                                  the Volga, although otherwise the same as the others, has a cranial
                                  index of 80.3. However, one hesitates to consider this typical of the
                                  Sarmatians as a whole, since both the Alans and the early Ossetes were
                                  long headed. The former preserved the original Scythian Nordic type
                                  until the ninth century A.D."
                                  "We know very little of the stature of the Scythians. Nine male
                                  skeletons from the Polish Ukraine, associated with crania of standard
                                  Scythian type, have a mean of over 170 cm."
                                  Page 201:
                                  "We have seen that the Scythians and Sarmatians, although they
                                  undoubtedly included in their ranks many individuals of different
                                  political affiliations, formed nevertheless a quite constant principal
                                  racial type, which was essentially Iranian and a form of Nordic. In its
                                  characteristic low vault, as in other dimensions, it specifically
                                  resembled the earlier eastern European and central Asiatic Nordic form.
                                  It was essentially a member of the racial cluster associated with the
                                  spread of Satem Indo-European speech in both Europe and Asia."
                                  I have already mentioned that Chinese sources described the
                                  Iranian Yüeh Jï as being white with red hair and green eyes. Nordic
                                  skulls are always associated with a high percentage of blond hair and
                                  blue eyes.

                                  And now, to return to the subject of this list, the Goths, I will
                                  add a little article about the physical type of the Goths and early
                                  Germanics.


                                   THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF INDO-EUROPEAN CULTURE, on page 127, says
                                  "...the Corded Ware culture is still commonly seen as ancestral to those
                                  IE peoples whose immediate origins are south across northern, central
                                  and parts of eastern Europe, i.e., the Celts, Germans, Balts and Slavs."
                                  In PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY OF EUROPEAN POPULATIONS, edited by Schwidetzky
                                  et al., there is a chapter called "The Genesis and Evolution of the
                                  Neolithic Population of the Eastern Baltic Lands" by R. Denisova. On
                                  pages 275-6 we read
                                  "At the turn of the second century B.C., new tribes penetrated into the
                                  eastern Baltic lands. These tribes are known in archaeological
                                  literature as the tribes of Cord-pottery Ware and Battle-axe culture. An
                                  idea of their anthropological type is given by a small craniological
                                  series from Estonia (Fürst 1914; Aul 1933; Mark 1956a). This type is
                                  very massive and markedly dolichocranial, due to great longitudinal and
                                  medium transverse diameters, with very high basion-bregma and a
                                  moderately broad, long face profiled in the horizontal direction."
                                  "In archaeological literature, the tribes of the Battle-axe culture in
                                  the eastern Baltic lands are identified with the first ancient Balts in
                                  this territory."
                                  Page 277:
                                  "All these considerations point to the probability of a genetic kinship
                                  between tribes of the Battle-axe culture of the eastern Baltic lands and
                                  the markedly dolichocranial early Neolithic population of this area.
                                  This kinship, however, is not to be regarded as direct continuity.
                                  Judging from materials of the Mesolithic age, the area of distribution
                                  of the markedly dolichocranial anthropological type was initially
                                  north-central Europe and the neighboring territories of eastern Europe.
                                  It is precisely from this area that the hyperdolichocranial Europoid
                                  population moved to the eastern Baltic lands where traces of its
                                  habitation can already be observed in the Mesolithic age. It seems that
                                  in the periods that followed there were repeated migrations of
                                  hyperdolichocranial tribes from north-central Europe to the eastern
                                  Baltic lands. This is shown by craniological material of the early
                                  (Zveinieki site) and late Neolithic periods (the tribes of the
                                  Battle-axe culture)."
                                  Now let us examine Harvard Professor Carleton Coon's THE RACES OF
                                  EUROPE.
                                  On page 85 he describes the Corded type.
                                  "Corded: Tall stature, mean 167-174 cm.; build linear but muscular,
                                  perhaps heavier than the Megalithic; extremely long-headed, 194 mm.mean.
                                  Vault of great height, means over 140 mm. exceeding breadth; browridges
                                  and muscular markings medium to strong; face very long, and of slight to
                                  moderate breadth; mandible deep and chin marked, but narrow through
                                  gonial angles. Nose leptorrhine, often prominent. This type, in western
                                  and northern Europe, approaches in some respects the Upper Paleolithic
                                  type with which it mixed."
                                  In Plate 27 he shows "A Nordic Dane of Jutish parentage who also shows
                                  Corded predominance. His face is of extreme length, a trait common among
                                  ancient Corded crania."
                                  On page 107:
                                  "THE CORDED OR BATTLE-AXE PEOPLE....The limits of the country overrun by
                                  the Corded people are the Vosges on the west, the Urals on the east, the
                                  Baltic on the north, and the Dinaric Alps on the south."
                                  "The most typical aggregation of Corded skulls comes from Silesia and
                                  Bohemia, whence a series of twenty-nine males may be assembled. These
                                  belong to a very definite, very distinct physical type. The length of
                                  the vault is great, well over 190 mm. in most instances; its breadth is
                                  slight, yielding a low mean cranial index of 71; and the height is
                                  great, considerably exceeding the breadth."
                                  What was the physical type of the Goths?
                                  On page 206 we read "A series of Goths from the Chersonese north of the
                                  Black Sea, dated between 100 B.C. and 100 A.D., includes three male and
                                  eight female skeletons. All of these are long headed, and they belong to
                                  a large, powerful Nordic type which reflects their Swedish origin, for
                                  they are no different from the Swedish Iron Age crania which we have
                                  already studied."
                                  "A later group of Gepidae dated from the fifth or sixth centuries in
                                  Hungary shows the persistence of this same type; despite historical
                                  blending with the Huns....One is forced to the conclusion from this
                                  series, as from that of the Goths in the Chersonese, that the East
                                  Germanic peoples who took part in these wanderings preserve their
                                  original racial characteristics so long as they retained their poitical
                                  and linguistic identity.
                                  "The same conclusion results when one examines the Visigothic skulls
                                  from northern Spain which date from the sixth century A.D. Here a series
                                  combined from several cemeteries shows us exactly the same Nordic type,
                                  with tall stature and a high-vaulted skull, a long face, and a broad
                                  jaw..."
                                  Page 207: "The type represented by these three groups and by the
                                  Visigoths seems to be a variant of the Nordic type to which the early
                                  Indo-European speakers belonged."
                                  Page 215: "The summary of our information concerning the racial origins
                                  and dispersion of the early Germanic peoples may be stated briefly and
                                  simply. At the beginning of the local Iron Age, a new people, bearing a
                                  Hallstatt type of culture, entered northwestern Germany and Scandinavia.
                                  These invaders were of the usual central European Nordic type associated
                                  in earlier centuries with the Illyrians. Through mixture with the local
                                  blend of Megalithic, Corded, and Borreby elements, these newcomers gave
                                  rise to a special sub-type of Nordic which was characterized by a larger
                                  vault and face, a heavier body build, and a skull form on the borderline
                                  between dolicho- and mesocephaly.
                                  "The Germanic tribes that wandered Europe during the period of
                                  migrations belonged essentially to this type."
                                  Page 202:
                                  "The home of the Germans before their expansion was only in a restricted
                                  sense the modern Germany. The tribes of which this people was composed
                                  occupied Denmark, southern and central Sweden, Norway, and the northern
                                  coastal strip of Germany, from the mouth of the Elbe to the Baltic
                                  shore. The islands of the Baltic near Sweden, namely Gotland and
                                  Bornholm were densely populated.
                                  "One must not suppose that these early Germans were the unaltered
                                  descendants of their Bronze Age predecessors, for there is strong
                                  archaeological evidence that new people entered Scandinavia at the
                                  beginning of the retarded Iron Age of this region....The Norse pantheon,
                                  with its family of gods and its Valhalla, is closely related to the
                                  systems of Greece and Rome, of India, and of the other Indo-European
                                  divisions."
                                  http://www.delphi.com/physanthro
                                  http://www.delphi.com/indoeuropean
                                  http://www.delphi.com/prehistory
                                  http://www.delphi.com/biohistory
                                  http://www.delphi.com/nordichistory1

                                  http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/AMAZINGNEW
                                  http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/RamesesTheGreata
                                • andreas.schwarcz@univie.ac.at
                                  ... What nonsens. Firstly, according to modern genetics there is only a single human race (and the genetic difference between men and mice is rather small). In
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 7, 2001
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                                    On 7 Mar 2001, at 9:39, Xoxana@... wrote:

                                    > You can't distinguish language from race.

                                    What nonsens. Firstly, according to modern genetics there is only a
                                    single human race (and the genetic difference between men and
                                    mice is rather small). In modern anthropology typology of humans
                                    according to skull-measuring is considered outdated. Secondly, the
                                    history of the European languages, especially the global proliferation
                                    of English, Spanish and French, clearly shows the absurdity of the
                                    argument. To return to the theme of this discussion list, Gothic was
                                    the common language in the Hunnic empire of Attila, but the
                                    Visigoths in Spain took over the Latin language of the indigenous
                                    population. I suggest we return to the Goths and leave Stalin and the
                                    Ossetians to modern politics and contemporary history.

                                    Andreas Schwarcz
                                    ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
                                    Institut fuer oesterreichische Geschichtsforschung
                                    Universitaet Wien
                                    Dr.Karl-Lueger-Ring 1
                                    A 1010 Wien
                                    Oesterreich
                                    tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
                                    fax 0043/1/42-77/92-72
                                    email andreas.schwarcz@...
                                  • Xoxana@webtv.net
                                    Schwarz: You misspelled nonsense. It is a myth that there is no such thing as race according to genetics. See http://www.delphi.com/paleogenetics1 And even
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 7, 2001
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                                      Schwarz:
                                      You misspelled "nonsense." It is a myth that there is no such thing
                                      as race according to genetics. See http://www.delphi.com/paleogenetics1

                                      And even if it were true, that still wouldn't change the fact that
                                      different ethnic groups and populations have different physical
                                      characteristics. Even Cavalli-Sforza, who lies and says race doesn't
                                      exist, wrote a long book about the different physical traits and genes
                                      of different "populations". He does the same thing as Coon but just
                                      phrases it in politically correct doublespeak. He too traces the genes
                                      of the Indo-Europeans from the steppes of Ukraine into Europe and other
                                      places. He too writes about the Nordic Race and where it has existed in
                                      history. He just uses politically correct doublespeak. He would say
                                      that the Iranian "population" had gene polymorphisms similar to those
                                      of modern Scandinavians, which means exactly the same thing.

                                      And even if both of these propositions were true, that still
                                      wouldn't change the fact that ancient Iranians were often blond. You
                                      may believe that vikings and Australian Aborigines are the same race,
                                      but that still doesn't change the fact that they look different.

                                      Now, let's go back to the subject of the Gothic language, a subject
                                      that I hope you know something about.

                                      http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/AMAZINGNEW
                                      http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/RamesesTheGreata
                                    • andreas.schwarcz@univie.ac.at
                                      Xoxana, you misspelled Schwarcz. Sorry for the error in nonsense , but my mother tongue is German and in German it is spelled that way and it means the same.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 7, 2001
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                                        Xoxana,
                                        you misspelled Schwarcz. Sorry for the error in "nonsense", but my
                                        mother tongue is German and in German it is spelled that way and it
                                        means the same. I suppose you know that the human genome was
                                        deciphered lately. Although we are not yet able to read it and to give
                                        meaning to all parts of it, we know that the genetic variants between
                                        all members of the species homo sapiens sapiens (what
                                        presumptous and erraneous name!) are smaller than those of a herd
                                        of fifty shimpanzees. I have no quarrel, however, with the physical
                                        descriptions of ancient peoples in our sources. If Procopius coins
                                        the term "xantha ethne" for Goths, Heruls and Vandals, I suppose he
                                        knew what he was writing about. But your concept of ethnicity based
                                        on race is outdated. You should read some of the modern literature
                                        on it, f.i. the books of Wenskus, Wolfram and Pohl. As you may
                                        have noticed in my contributions, I am a professional historian and a
                                        specialist in early medieval history. That is why I am interested in
                                        the Goths and my knowledge about them may be checked in my
                                        publications and not in anonymous email contributions.
                                        Andreas Schwarcz
                                        ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
                                        Institut fuer oesterreichische Geschichtsforschung
                                        Universitaet Wien
                                        Dr.Karl-Lueger-Ring 1
                                        A 1010 Wien
                                        Oesterreich
                                        tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
                                        fax 0043/1/42-77/92-72
                                        email andreas.schwarcz@...
                                      • dirk@smra.co.uk
                                        ... the ... to do ... don t ... if ... were ... Hello, true, I know next to nothing about physical anthropology, but I did not insist on the Alans been dark
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Mar 8, 2001
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                                          --- In gothic-l@y..., Xoxana@w... wrote:
                                          > What Dirk is basically saying is "I don't know anything about
                                          the
                                          > ancient Iranians or about physical anthropology, and I am too lazy
                                          to do
                                          > any research, but I still insist that the Alans were dark; and I
                                          don't
                                          > know anything about the ancient authors who described the Alans, but
                                          if
                                          > their observations disagree with me, they must have been faulty. I
                                          > wasn't there, but if they thought they saw fair hair, I know they
                                          were
                                          > wrong. They saw dark hair and subjectively thought it was fair."



                                          Hello,

                                          true, I know next to nothing about physical anthropology, but I did
                                          not insist on the Alans been dark haired either. All I said is that we
                                          should assess the Greek sources that provide these discriptions from
                                          their point of view. Overall, I have no problem at all with the
                                          proposition that Alans were blond.


                                          > What was the physical type of the Goths?
                                          > On page 206 we read "A series of Goths from the Chersonese north of
                                          the
                                          > Black Sea, dated between 100 B.C. and 100 A.D., includes three male
                                          and
                                          > eight female skeletons. All of these are long headed, and they
                                          belong to
                                          > a large, powerful Nordic type which reflects their Swedish origin,
                                          for
                                          > they are no different from the Swedish Iron Age crania which we have
                                          > already studied."


                                          The above statement that you provided seems to demonstrate some of
                                          the problems with these anthropological comparisons. These supposedly
                                          Nordic Gothic skeletons found at the Black sea can hardly have been
                                          Goths at all if the dating range of between 100BC to 100AD is correct.
                                          The Goths reached this area only in the late 2nd century. So you have
                                          those supposedly Germanic/Gothic characteristics in a time frame where
                                          their should not have been any Germanic/Gothic people in that area.


                                          In general, I believe that conclusions about different ethnical groups
                                          can be drawn from these kind of bone measurements to some extent and
                                          if the sample and the variations are sufficiently large. But I also
                                          believe that these kinds of techniques have to be used very carefully
                                          in combination with other evidence.


                                          cheers
                                          Dirk






                                          Dr. Dirk Faltin




                                          > "A later group of Gepidae dated from the fifth or sixth centuries in
                                          > Hungary shows the persistence of this same type; despite historical
                                          > blending with the Huns....One is forced to the conclusion from this
                                          > series, as from that of the Goths in the Chersonese, that the East
                                          > Germanic peoples who took part in these wanderings preserve their
                                          > original racial characteristics so long as they retained their
                                          poitical
                                          > and linguistic identity.
                                          > "The same conclusion results when one examines the Visigothic skulls
                                          > from northern Spain which date from the sixth century A.D. Here a
                                          series
                                          > combined from several cemeteries shows us exactly the same Nordic
                                          type,
                                          > with tall stature and a high-vaulted skull, a long face, and a broad
                                          > jaw..."
                                          > Page 207: "The type represented by these three groups and by the
                                          > Visigoths seems to be a variant of the Nordic type to which the
                                          early
                                          > Indo-European speakers belonged."
                                          > Page 215: "The summary of our information concerning the racial
                                          origins
                                          > and dispersion of the early Germanic peoples may be stated briefly
                                          and
                                          > simply. At the beginning of the local Iron Age, a new people,
                                          bearing a
                                          > Hallstatt type of culture, entered northwestern Germany and
                                          Scandinavia.
                                          > These invaders were of the usual central European Nordic type
                                          associated
                                          > in earlier centuries with the Illyrians. Through mixture with the
                                          local
                                          > blend of Megalithic, Corded, and Borreby elements, these newcomers
                                          gave
                                          > rise to a special sub-type of Nordic which was characterized by a
                                          larger
                                          > vault and face, a heavier body build, and a skull form on the
                                          borderline
                                          > between dolicho- and mesocephaly.
                                          > "The Germanic tribes that wandered Europe during the period of
                                          > migrations belonged essentially to this type."
                                          > Page 202:
                                          > "The home of the Germans before their expansion was only in a
                                          restricted
                                          > sense the modern Germany. The tribes of which this people was
                                          composed
                                          > occupied Denmark, southern and central Sweden, Norway, and the
                                          northern
                                          > coastal strip of Germany, from the mouth of the Elbe to the Baltic
                                          > shore. The islands of the Baltic near Sweden, namely Gotland and
                                          > Bornholm were densely populated.
                                          > "One must not suppose that these early Germans were the unaltered
                                          > descendants of their Bronze Age predecessors, for there is strong
                                          > archaeological evidence that new people entered Scandinavia at the
                                          > beginning of the retarded Iron Age of this region....The Norse
                                          pantheon,
                                          > with its family of gods and its Valhalla, is closely related to the
                                          > systems of Greece and Rome, of India, and of the other Indo-European
                                          > divisions."
                                          > http://www.delphi.com/physanthro
                                          > http://www.delphi.com/indoeuropean
                                          > http://www.delphi.com/prehistory
                                          > http://www.delphi.com/biohistory
                                          > http://www.delphi.com/nordichistory1
                                          >
                                          > http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/AMAZINGNEW
                                          > http://community.webtv.net/Xoxana/RamesesTheGreata
                                        • babeck@alphalink.com.au
                                          ... correct. ... have ... where ... Hi, Weren t the Bastarnae in this region around these dates? Cheers, Brian Beck
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Mar 8, 2001
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                                            --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                                            > Nordic Gothic skeletons found at the Black sea can hardly have been
                                            > Goths at all if the dating range of between 100BC to 100AD is
                                            correct.
                                            > The Goths reached this area only in the late 2nd century. So you
                                            have
                                            > those supposedly Germanic/Gothic characteristics in a time frame
                                            where
                                            > their should not have been any Germanic/Gothic people in that area.
                                            >
                                            Hi,
                                            Weren't the Bastarnae in this region around these dates?

                                            Cheers,
                                            Brian Beck
                                          • dirk@smra.co.uk
                                            ... been ... area. ... Hi Brian, I think the Bastarnae were situated somewhere at the Danube, but not exactly the Chersonnes. Also, it is not really clear who
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Mar 8, 2001
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                                              --- In gothic-l@y..., babeck@a... wrote:
                                              > --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                                              > > Nordic Gothic skeletons found at the Black sea can hardly have
                                              been
                                              > > Goths at all if the dating range of between 100BC to 100AD is
                                              > correct.
                                              > > The Goths reached this area only in the late 2nd century. So you
                                              > have
                                              > > those supposedly Germanic/Gothic characteristics in a time frame
                                              > where
                                              > > their should not have been any Germanic/Gothic people in that
                                              area.
                                              > >
                                              > Hi,
                                              > Weren't the Bastarnae in this region around these dates?
                                              >
                                              > Cheers,
                                              > Brian Beck


                                              Hi Brian,

                                              I think the Bastarnae were situated somewhere at the Danube, but not
                                              exactly the Chersonnes. Also, it is not really clear who or what these
                                              Bastarnae were. Celts? a Celtic-Germanic mixed people? How does that
                                              work with language beeing the main distinguishing factor, some
                                              Bastarnae speaking Celtic some Germanic or all Celto-Germanic mixed
                                              language.

                                              The main point here is that these skeletons were apparently identified
                                              as the remains of Goths, because of their alledged nordic
                                              cahracteristics, although Goths had not reached that area by the
                                              given timeframe, which casts some doubts on this method. Also, I doubt
                                              that bone measurements could be used to distinguish between a Celt
                                              and a German.

                                              cheers
                                              Dirk
                                            • sig
                                              A bon mot. ... [...] ... Amen, amen. Sig [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Mar 8, 2001
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                                                A bon mot.

                                                > Xoxana@... wrote:
                                                > > You can't distinguish language from race.

                                                Andreas Schwarcz responded:
                                                > What nonsens. Firstly, according to modern genetics there is > only a single human race
                                                [...]
                                                > I suggest we return to the Goths and leave Stalin and the
                                                > Ossetians to modern politics and contemporary history.

                                                Amen, amen.


                                                Sig

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • hakan36@spray.se
                                                ... effort ... in ... and ... films, ... did ... gothic. ... in ... land ... threat ... rate ... Hi Dirk, As I thought, the idea about a large amount being
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Mar 11, 2001
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                                                  --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Hi!
                                                  > > Once I read a book, a novel, in Poland a well-known book from
                                                  > > nationalromantic period in the beginning of the 20th c, by Henryk
                                                  > > Sienkiewicz. It´s called "Potop" or the "flood" in english. It´s
                                                  > > about the 1650ies in Poland and the nationalistic nobelmens
                                                  effort
                                                  > to
                                                  > > push out a invading army from a well-known nordic country. There
                                                  in
                                                  > a
                                                  > > bysentence you are allowed to follow the swordfencing nobelman
                                                  > > Michael Volodjovsky´s thoughts. And the story goes approximately
                                                  > like
                                                  > > this:"and as a nobelman from the slachta(nobility-class), he not
                                                  > only
                                                  > > had to learn the art of sword-fencing, but must also learn latin
                                                  and
                                                  > > gothic. But he wasn´t very interested in books". In books and
                                                  films,
                                                  > > especially the nobility is often depicted as being blond.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I wonder if it was a myth during the nationalromantic period or
                                                  did
                                                  > > the polish noblemen in general, until the 17th c also speak
                                                  gothic.
                                                  > > And if they did that, why did they do that?
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Håkan Liljeberg
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi Hakan,
                                                  >
                                                  > there is no chance in the world that the 17th century (or
                                                  > earlier/later) Polish nobility spoke Gothic. I remember that when
                                                  in
                                                  > the 13th and 14th century the German order knights conquered the
                                                  land
                                                  > of the Prussians and Masovia, a Polish chronicler spoke of the
                                                  threat
                                                  > of the Goths, thus equating Germans with Goths. Also, a German
                                                  > printing script widely used at this time is still called Gothic
                                                  > (Gotische Frakturschrift), maybe he was refering to that. At any
                                                  rate
                                                  > no Gothic was spoken in 17th century Poland!

                                                  Hi Dirk,

                                                  As I thought, the idea about a large amount being able to speak
                                                  gothic in Poland in the 17th was a hoax. But such ideas and bettering
                                                  history into fantastic legends and stories was normal in the 19th c.
                                                  Free interpretation was a regular way of telling the history. The
                                                  history allover the western world was told the way you wanted it to
                                                  be, rather the way it really was. Probably because the science of
                                                  archeology was still in it´s infancy.


                                                  Greetings from




                                                  Håkan Liljeberg
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