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[gothic-l] Crimean Gothic

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  • Ben Van Poppel
    Hi all. Does anyone know much about Crimean Gothic, the last descendant of Gothic to die out. I know it was still spoken in some communities in Bulgaria until
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 17, 1999
      Hi all.

      Does anyone know much about Crimean Gothic, the last descendant of Gothic
      to die out. I know it was still spoken in some communities in Bulgaria
      until the 17th century, but that's really all I know.

      Regards.



      Ben

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    • Magnus Hreinn Snaedal
      Try the following: Stearns, MacDonald Crimean gothic: analysis and etymology of the corpus; Saratoga, Calif : Anma Libri, 1978 [Studia linguistica et
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 18, 1999
        Try the following:

        Stearns, MacDonald
        Crimean gothic: analysis and etymology of the corpus;
        Saratoga, Calif : Anma Libri, 1978
        [Studia linguistica et philologica; v. 6]

        M.Sn.

        At 17:24 18.3.1999 +1100, you wrote:
        >Hi all.
        >
        >Does anyone know much about Crimean Gothic, the last descendant of Gothic
        >to die out. I know it was still spoken in some communities in Bulgaria
        >until the 17th century, but that's really all I know.
        >
        >Regards.
        >
        >
        >
        >Ben
        >
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        >
        >


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      • Ben Van Poppel
        Any web-resources on Crimean? I only ask because I m totally blind and can t access print materials. The only braille transcription service at my disposal
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 18, 1999
          Any web-resources on Crimean? I only ask because I'm totally blind and
          can't access print materials. The only braille transcription service at
          my disposal can't even cope with getting my school texts brailled in time.

          Regards.
          Ben

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        • Tomas.Kindahl@saab.se
          ... I have searched the net with a lot of search engines, but the sites i found either were references to litterature about Crimean Gothic or directories of
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 19, 1999
            Ben Van Poppel wrote:

            > Any web-resources on Crimean? I only ask because I'm totally blind and
            > can't access print materials. The only braille transcription service at
            > my disposal can't even cope with getting my school texts brailled in time.

            I have searched the net with a lot of search engines, but the
            sites i found either were references to litterature about Crimean
            Gothic or directories of languages, so: none known by me.

            --
            med vänliga hälsningar (greetings)

            Tomas Kindahl
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          • Francisc Czobor
            Hails everybody! I am interested in the subject of the Crimean Goths, but my sources for information are rather poor. Can anybody give me some information on
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 2, 1999
              Hails everybody!

              I am interested in the subject of the Crimean Goths, but my sources for
              information are rather poor. Can anybody give me some information on this
              matter, or indicate me appropriate sources (some web page, if there is one
              on this subject)? Is there available somewhere the whole word list of
              Busbecq? I know only a dozen of Crimean Gothic words. And is there some
              information available on the culture or the religion of the Crimean Goths?

              I give below all I know about this subject [and in square brackets, my
              comments]:

              At the middle of the 3rd century (in 258), Gothic tribes were already
              settled in Crimea; "Gothi" are here mentioned in writings of the Middle
              Age [which are these?]. A Gothic principality survived in Crimea until the
              capture of Mankup by the Turks in 1475 [Are known the names of some
              princes? Where was their capital?].

              Attestations of the existence of the Gothic language in Crimea persist
              until late. A Venetian named Joseph Barbaro, who lived in Tana (an
              Italian commercial settlement at the mouth of the Don river) between 1436
              and 1462, wrote that his German servant could talk with a Crimean Goth as
              easy as a Florentine with a Genovese. A German chronicle mentions the
              fact that, in the 16th century, merchants from N�rnberg, thrown by a storm
              on the Crimean coast, have found a young native who could answer to their
              questions asked in German. The Goths of Crimea are mentioned for the last
              time by a Fleming, Ogier Ghiselin (or Ghislain?) van Busbecq (or van
              Busbeck, or de Busbecq, or de Busbeck? I have found all the four
              variants!), Charles V's imperial envoy to Constantinople, who encountered
              there some Goths originating from Crimea. He collected from them a number
              of about 60 (or 80?) words and phrases in use among the Crimean Goths, and
              published the list in 1589. (This Busbecq had to be a remarkable man,
              because it's him who brought the lilac and the tulips from the Levant into
              Europe!) The Crimean Gothic, located in south-western Crimea, became
              extinguished about the middle of the 18th century [what is attesting this,
              since it was mentioned for the last time by Busbecq in the middle of the
              16th century??]. Another descendant of Gothic that also survived for a
              longer time was Tetraxites, spoken on the Taman peninsula (in Caucasia,
              but close to Crimea), which became extinguished in the 18th century also
              [what is the evidence? Is there some certificate?] and of which we have
              no remains.

              The words of Busbecq's list show clearly that the Crimean Gothic, though
              not unaffected by Iranian influence, was still a form of Gothic.

              Below I list all the Crimean Gothic words that I found in several sources:

              ada = egg (probably < Go. *addja- < Gmc. *ajja-)
              ano = hen (Go. *han�, fem. of hana "cock")
              apel = apple (Gmc.)
              bars = beard (Gmc.)
              bruder = brother (Go. br��ar)
              fyder = four (Go. fidw�r)
              geen = to go (Gmc.)
              hazer = thousand (Iranic, cf. Pers. haz�r)
              mine = moon (Go. m�na)
              myche = sword (go. m�keis)
              schieten = to shoot (Gmc. *skiutan)
              stap = he-goat (probably Iranic, cf. Pers. chabish)

              Does anybody know also other words? It's very interesting to see how did
              evolve this language from Wulfila (4th century) to Busbecq (16th century).

              Francisc
            • Tomas Mac an Chrosain
              ... Dear Francisc: I was very interested in this subject as well. I was trying to find out what happen to the descendents of the Goths of Crimea, but some
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 2, 1999
                Francisc Czobor wrote:
                >
                > Hails everybody!
                >
                > I am interested in the subject of the Crimean Goths, but my sources for
                > information are rather poor. Can anybody give me some information on this
                > matter, or indicate me appropriate sources (some web page, if there is one
                > on this subject)? Is there available somewhere the whole word list of
                > Busbecq? I know only a dozen of Crimean Gothic words. And is there some
                > information available on the culture or the religion of the Crimean Goths?
                >
                > I give below all I know about this subject [and in square brackets, my
                > comments]:
                >
                > At the middle of the 3rd century (in 258), Gothic tribes were already
                > settled in Crimea; "Gothi" are here mentioned in writings of the Middle
                > Age [which are these?]. A Gothic principality survived in Crimea until the
                > capture of Mankup by the Turks in 1475 [Are known the names of some
                > princes? Where was their capital?].
                >
                > Attestations of the existence of the Gothic language in Crimea persist
                > until late. A Venetian named Joseph Barbaro, who lived in Tana (an
                > Italian commercial settlement at the mouth of the Don river) between 1436
                > and 1462, wrote that his German servant could talk with a Crimean Goth as
                > easy as a Florentine with a Genovese. A German chronicle mentions the
                > fact that, in the 16th century, merchants from Nürnberg, thrown by a storm
                > on the Crimean coast, have found a young native who could answer to their
                > questions asked in German. The Goths of Crimea are mentioned for the last
                > time by a Fleming, Ogier Ghiselin (or Ghislain?) van Busbecq (or van
                > Busbeck, or de Busbecq, or de Busbeck? I have found all the four
                > variants!), Charles V's imperial envoy to Constantinople, who encountered
                > there some Goths originating from Crimea. He collected from them a number
                > of about 60 (or 80?) words and phrases in use among the Crimean Goths, and
                > published the list in 1589. (This Busbecq had to be a remarkable man,
                > because it's him who brought the lilac and the tulips from the Levant into
                > Europe!) The Crimean Gothic, located in south-western Crimea, became
                > extinguished about the middle of the 18th century [what is attesting this,
                > since it was mentioned for the last time by Busbecq in the middle of the
                > 16th century??]. Another descendant of Gothic that also survived for a
                > longer time was Tetraxites, spoken on the Taman peninsula (in Caucasia,
                > but close to Crimea), which became extinguished in the 18th century also
                > [what is the evidence? Is there some certificate?] and of which we have
                > no remains.
                >
                > The words of Busbecq's list show clearly that the Crimean Gothic, though
                > not unaffected by Iranian influence, was still a form of Gothic.
                >
                > Below I list all the Crimean Gothic words that I found in several sources:
                >
                > ada = egg (probably < Go. *addja- < Gmc. *ajja-)
                > ano = hen (Go. *hanó, fem. of hana "cock")
                > apel = apple (Gmc.)
                > bars = beard (Gmc.)
                > bruder = brother (Go. bróþar)
                > fyder = four (Go. fidwór)
                > geen = to go (Gmc.)
                > hazer = thousand (Iranic, cf. Pers. hazár)
                > mine = moon (Go. ména)
                > myche = sword (go. mékeis)
                > schieten = to shoot (Gmc. *skiutan)
                > stap = he-goat (probably Iranic, cf. Pers. chabish)
                >
                > Does anybody know also other words? It's very interesting to see how did
                > evolve this language from Wulfila (4th century) to Busbecq (16th century).
                >
                > Francisc
                >
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                Dear Francisc:
                I was very interested in this subject as well. I was trying to find out
                what happen to the descendents of the Goths of Crimea, but some people
                posted some messages months ago indicating the only conclusion I could
                come to is that they may have been killed off or assimilated. Perhaps
                someone could provide us with some references. Goths belonged to the
                church which was Arian in Christology, but later surely become Orthodox
                or Catholic (as in Western Europe). I'm sure the Crimean Goths were
                probably Orthodox Christians under the Patriarch of Kiev.
                Tomas
              • got@yesbox.net
                The Crimean Gothic, located in south-western Crimea, became ... this, ... the ... a ... Caucasia, ... also ... have ... though ... did ... century). ... Hails
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 2, 1999
                  The Crimean Gothic, located in south-western Crimea, became
                  > extinguished about the middle of the 18th century [what is attesting
                  this,
                  > since it was mentioned for the last time by Busbecq in the middle of
                  the
                  > 16th century??]. Another descendant of Gothic that also survived for
                  a
                  > longer time was Tetraxites, spoken on the Taman peninsula (in
                  Caucasia,
                  > but close to Crimea), which became extinguished in the 18th century
                  also
                  > [what is the evidence? Is there some certificate?] and of which we
                  have
                  > no remains.
                  >
                  > The words of Busbecq's list show clearly that the Crimean Gothic,
                  though
                  > not unaffected by Iranian influence, was still a form of Gothic.
                  >
                  > Below I list all the Crimean Gothic words that I found in several
                  sources:
                  >
                  > ada = egg (probably < Go. *addja- < Gmc. *ajja-)
                  > ano = hen (Go. *hanó, fem. of hana "cock")
                  > apel = apple (Gmc.)
                  > bars = beard (Gmc.)
                  > bruder = brother (Go. bróþar)
                  > fyder = four (Go. fidwór)
                  > geen = to go (Gmc.)
                  > hazer = thousand (Iranic, cf. Pers. hazár)
                  > mine = moon (Go. ména)
                  > myche = sword (go. mékeis)
                  > schieten = to shoot (Gmc. *skiutan)
                  > stap = he-goat (probably Iranic, cf. Pers. chabish)
                  >
                  > Does anybody know also other words? It's very interesting to see how
                  did
                  > evolve this language from Wulfila (4th century) to Busbecq (16th
                  century).
                  >
                  > Francisc

                  Hails allaim!
                  As far as I know they had their own bishopric, Gothia, dissolved in
                  1779.
                  In the book "Gutarnas Historia" by Tore Gannholm, he writes a
                  comparison between Crimean gothic and Gutamål. I quote in the same
                  order:

                  Stein "stone" Stein
                  Stega "twenty" Stäjg
                  Salt "salt" Salt
                  Broe "bread" Broe
                  Hus "house" Hus
                  Lamb "sheep" Lamb
                  Wasti "disguise, cover" vast"fieldcover, fence"
                  Ga-runs "market" Garn"trading-place"

                  Gutwulfs
                • Tim O'Neill
                  ... It seems the Crimean Goths became Catholic quite early on. Many of the Gothic viking expeditions of the 250s originated from the Crimea and large
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 2, 1999
                    Tomas Mac an Chrosain wrote:

                    > I was very interested in this subject as well. I was trying to find out
                    > what happen to the descendents of the Goths of Crimea, but some people
                    > posted some messages months ago indicating the only conclusion I could
                    > come to is that they may have been killed off or assimilated. Perhaps
                    > someone could provide us with some references. Goths belonged to the
                    > church which was Arian in Christology, but later surely become Orthodox
                    > or Catholic (as in Western Europe). I'm sure the Crimean Goths were
                    > probably Orthodox Christians under the Patriarch of Kiev.

                    It seems the Crimean Goths became Catholic quite early on. Many of the
                    Gothic 'viking' expeditions of the 250s originated from the Crimea and
                    large numbers of orthodox Roman captives brought to the area probably
                    set the scene. In 404 AD the Crimean Goths asked the Patriarch John
                    Chrysostom for a Catholic bishop to replace Unila, who Chrysostom had
                    appointed earlier and who had since died. In 548 they made a
                    similar request to Constantinople and also for military aid against
                    their Hunnic neighbours.

                    Three other snippets about the Crimean Goths: Procopius describes
                    one of the encounters between the Crimean Goths and the Huns and
                    says they repelled Hunnic cavalry by forming a 'fence' of shields
                    bristling with spears.

                    Theodoric the Great also formally asked the Crimean Goths to join
                    his expedition to Italy, but they declined with thanks (out of respect
                    for an Amal but due to religious reservations perhaps?)

                    In about 1750 a Jesuit from Vienna named Mondorf ransomed a prisoner
                    from the Turkish galleys who turned out to be from the Crimea and
                    whose native language bore a resemblance to German. If this was
                    a corrupted form of Gothic, this means that there were still
                    people speaking (something like) Gothic as recently as 250 years ago.

                    I, like Francisc, would also like to know if there is a full list
                    of Crimean Gothic on the web. Here are a few more words which I've
                    pieced together from various sources:
                    goltz = gold (Go. gulths)
                    schlipen = sleep (Go. slepan)
                    statz = earth, ground (Go. staths 'place')
                    baar = boy (Go. barn 'child')
                    wichtgata = white (Go. hweitata)
                    tzo = thou (Go. thu)
                    ies = he (Go. is)

                    Apparently Busbecq's list also included the Crimean Gothic numerals
                    up to ninety, which are all recognisably Gothic, though the numbers
                    for 100 and 1000 are apparently Iranian.

                    Hopefully others can add to this list and to the information about
                    this fascinating last pocket of Gothia.
                    Hails,

                    Tim O'Neill
                    Tasmanian Devil
                  • llama_nom
                    This might be of interest to some people here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Germanic-L/message/13590 The article contains a detailed discussion of Crimean
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 4, 2005
                      This might be of interest to some people here:

                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Germanic-L/message/13590

                      The article contains a detailed discussion of Crimean Gothic sounds
                      and an interpretation of the song Busbecq recorded.
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.