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gothic traces in the east?

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  • Tiefi
    Hi all, I m no lingusitic expert, so this question might sound unscientific , i hope you don t mind: As Germanic nations were settled as a whole in Moesia
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 23, 2001
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      Hi all,

      I'm no lingusitic expert, so this question might
      sound "unscientific", i hope you don't mind:

      As Germanic nations were settled as a whole in Moesia inf. and sup.,
      Thracia, Dacia and Asia Minor etc. throughout the 3rd/4th/5th
      century and later only (?)the warriors left for the west (Visigoths,
      Ostrogoths, Eruli....), big parts of the Balkans had rural
      Germanic/Gothic settlements around 500/600/700 AD. (Gothi Minores....)

      Lateron they mainly got slavicised (proto-serb, proto-bulgar),
      hellenized or might have joined the Romano-Vlach-Albanian semi-nomads
      in "Macedonia" and Valachia or the Avars and Magyars.

      And here my question:

      Might there be any traces in this languages, too?
      I think so!

      But this hasn't been subject of research up to now, as far as i know.

      But if there are, they should be easier to find than in Germanic
      languages with big similarities (like Swedish, Norge etc.)?!?

      Maybe this could help to reconstruct the Gothic language more easyly.

      Yours Gothically.

      Tiefi
    • Francisc Czobor
      Dear Tiefi, Regarding the Romanian language, there are some words for which an East-Germanic origin is considered more probable than other explanations. They
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 25, 2001
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        Dear Tiefi,

        Regarding the Romanian language, there are some words for which
        an East-Germanic origin is considered more probable than other
        explanations. They are regarded as Gepidic rather than Gothic, having
        in view the fact that the Gepids stayed longer in Dacia than the
        Goths.
        These words are to be separated from the Germanic words that came into
        Romanian through Vulgar Latin, from the Gothic and other Old Germanic
        words that came through Slavic, and also from the larger amount of
        German words that were borrowed from the Transylvanian Saxons
        (directly or through Hungarian).

        These Romanian words of presumably Gothic/Gepidic origin are:

        ba^lca~ "jug, mug" < Gep. *bollika, cf. O.Eng. bolla "vessel, cup",
        OHG bolla "round vessel"
        bulz "clod" < Gep. *bultja or *bulti, cf. MHG bulte "clod, boulder,
        heap", Low German Buelte "heap, knoll"
        nasture "button" < Got. nestilo "cord, string" or OHG nestila "bow,
        ribbon"
        rapa~n "itch" < Got.-Gep. rappo (Gen. rappons), cf. MHG rapfe "itch"
        sta~rnut "with white-spotted forehead (about horses)" < Got. stairno
        or Gep. *sterno or OHG sterno "star", cf. Swed. stjerna
        "star; white spot on horse's forehead"
        strugure "grape" < Got. *thrubilo or Gep. *struwilo (cf. MHG trubel
        < OHG triuba "grape")
        targa~ "stretcher" < Got./Gep. *targa, cf. OHG zarga "enclosure"
        tureci "trousers, pants" < Got. *theuhbrok or Gep. *theubreki, cf.
        OHG theohproch, diohpruoch "trousers"
        zgudui "to shake" < Gep. *skudojan, cf. O.Sax. skuddian "tremble,
        shake", O.Fris. skedda "push, shake", OHG scutten, scuien
        "shake, stir, pour"

        And one remark, Tiefi, if you don't mind:

        There are no "Romano-Vlach-Albanian semi-nomads". "Vlach" is an old,
        mediaeval Slavic name for Romanians - both North-Danubian Romanians
        (Daco-Romanians) and South-Danubian Romanians (Macedo-Romanians,
        Megleno-Romanians, Istro-Romanians and the extinct Maurovlachoi).
        The Slavs used this name initially for Romans generally, later it was
        restricted to the Romance speaking neighbors of the Slavs - Romanians
        or Italians. The Albanians are different from the Romanians (Vlachs),
        although their languages share a common Thracian substratum.

        Francisc

        GUTANI WIHAILAG
      • Francisc Czobor
        Sorry, I forgot to indicate in my previous message the source for those Romanian words of presumably Gothic-Gepidic origin. The source is: Istoria Limbii
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 25, 2001
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          Sorry, I forgot to indicate in my previous message the source for
          those Romanian words of presumably Gothic-Gepidic origin.
          The source is:
          Istoria Limbii Romane ("The History of the Romanian Language"),
          Vol. II, Romanian Academy's Publishing House, Bucharest, 1969,
          pages 368-370.

          Francisc

          GUATNI WIHAILAG
        • Anthony Appleyard
          Francisc Czobor wrote:- ... I thought that:- Albanian was descended from Illyrian rather than Thracian. The Vlachs are descended from
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 25, 2001
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            "Francisc Czobor" <czobor@...> wrote:-
            > ... The Albanians are different from the Romanians (Vlachs),
            > although their languages share a common Thracian substratum.

            I thought that:-
            Albanian was descended from Illyrian rather than Thracian.
            The Vlachs are descended from Illyrians who were Latinized in language but
            kept some Illyrian words in such areas as mountain shepherding.
            What is now Rumania was almost completely depopulated by invading tribes of
            steppe nomads from the east after the Roman Empire broke up, and it was
            gradually repopulated later by Vlachs, and those became the modern Rumanians.
          • dirk@smra.co.uk
            ... language but ... tribes of ... was ... Rumanians. Hi Anthony, this scenario would have made it rather difficult for Gothic/Gepidic words to enter the
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 25, 2001
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              --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2@f...>
              wrote:
              > "Francisc Czobor" <czobor@c...> wrote:-
              > > ... The Albanians are different from the Romanians (Vlachs),
              > > although their languages share a common Thracian substratum.
              >
              > I thought that:-
              > Albanian was descended from Illyrian rather than Thracian.
              > The Vlachs are descended from Illyrians who were Latinized in
              language but
              > kept some Illyrian words in such areas as mountain shepherding.
              > What is now Rumania was almost completely depopulated by invading
              tribes of
              > steppe nomads from the east after the Roman Empire broke up, and it
              was
              > gradually repopulated later by Vlachs, and those became the modern
              Rumanians.

              Hi Anthony,

              this scenario would have made it rather difficult for Gothic/Gepidic
              words to enter the Romanian language. Is it possbile that those words
              of Germanic origin have been adopted at a much later time, following
              the inmigration of the so called 'Siebenbuerger Sachsen' (i.e.
              Transylvanian Saxons from Germany) to Transylvania from the 11th
              century?

              cheers
              Dirk
            • Francisc Czobor
              ... There are different opinions on this issue. The current opinion is that Albanian is descended both from Illyrian (the kentum-type words) and from Thracian
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 25, 2001
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                --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2@f...>
                wrote:

                > I thought that:-
                > Albanian was descended from Illyrian rather than Thracian.

                There are different opinions on this issue.
                The current opinion is that Albanian is descended both from Illyrian
                (the kentum-type words) and from Thracian (the satem-type words).
                Anyway, it seems to be more Thracian than Illyrian.

                > The Vlachs are descended from Illyrians who were Latinized in
                language but
                > kept some Illyrian words in such areas as mountain shepherding.

                The Vlachs/Romanians are descended from Latinized Thracians
                (Dacians and South-Danubian Thracians), not from Illyrans.
                The words shared by Romanian and Albanian in such fields as
                mountain shepherding are currently considered Thracian, not Illyrian.

                > What is now Rumania was almost completely depopulated by invading
                tribes of
                > steppe nomads from the east after the Roman Empire broke up, and it
                was
                > gradually repopulated later by Vlachs, and those became the modern
                Rumanians.

                The official theory in Romania is that Dacia was not completely
                depopulated during the migrations period and that the Romanians
                are the descendants of Romanized Dacians. This is the theory of
                the so-called "continuity of the Romanians in Dacia", and I repeat
                that this is the official point of view in Romania.
                But, honestly speaking, there is not much evidence of such a
                continuity of a Daco-Roman population in Dacia (today's Romania)during
                the migration period.

                Francisc

                GUTANI WIHAILAG
              • Francisc Czobor
                ... words ... Dear Dirk, as I mentioned in my message on Gothic/Gepidic words in Romanian (no. 3271,) those words that I enumerated are the only words that are
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 25, 2001
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                  --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, dirk@s... wrote:

                  >
                  > Hi Anthony,
                  >
                  > this scenario would have made it rather difficult for Gothic/Gepidic
                  > words to enter the Romanian language. Is it possbile that those
                  words
                  > of Germanic origin have been adopted at a much later time, following
                  > the inmigration of the so called 'Siebenbuerger Sachsen' (i.e.
                  > Transylvanian Saxons from Germany) to Transylvania from the 11th
                  > century?
                  >
                  > cheers
                  > Dirk

                  Dear Dirk,

                  as I mentioned in my message on Gothic/Gepidic words in Romanian
                  (no. 3271,) those words that I enumerated are the only words that are
                  rather Gothic or Gepidic than from the dialect of the Transylvanian
                  Saxons, which are more numerous.
                  Indeed, the acceptance of these words as Gothic/Gepidic would be an
                  evidence for the "continuity theory" in Dacia, but they could been
                  borrowed also south of Danube, from the Gothi Minores for instance.

                  Francisc

                  GUTANI WIHAILAG
                • keth@online.no
                  ... I am totally unfamiliar with these languages. But it occurred to me that the word VLACH is similar in some ways to the German word Welsch . Could there be
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 25, 2001
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                    Francisc Czobor wrote:

                    >There are no "Romano-Vlach-Albanian semi-nomads". "Vlach" is an old,
                    >mediaeval Slavic name for Romanians - both North-Danubian Romanians
                    >(Daco-Romanians) and South-Danubian Romanians (Macedo-Romanians,
                    >Megleno-Romanians, Istro-Romanians and the extinct Maurovlachoi).
                    >The Slavs used this name initially for Romans generally, later it was
                    >restricted to the Romance speaking neighbors of the Slavs - Romanians
                    >or Italians. The Albanians are different from the Romanians (Vlachs),
                    >although their languages share a common Thracian substratum.
                    >

                    I am totally unfamiliar with these languages.
                    But it occurred to me that the word VLACH is similar in some ways
                    to the German word "Welsch". Could there be a connection?
                    (like in Kauder-Welsch = incomprehensible gibberish)
                    Also, in Switzerland there is Kanton Wallis.

                    Hope you can elucidate some of this.

                    Best regards
                    Keth
                  • Fritscher
                    There is a connection between the Slavic Vlach and the English Welch . It is related to the Germanic word for foreign or foreigner. For example: Wealh is
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 25, 2001
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                      There is a connection between the Slavic 'Vlach' and the English
                      'Welch'.
                      It is related to the Germanic word for foreign or foreigner.

                      For example:

                      'Wealh' is the Old English word meaning foreigner.

                      The Slavs probably referred to the Romanians as 'foreigners' since they
                      spoke a non-Slavic language.

                      -Carl


                      On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 keth@... wrote:

                      > Francisc Czobor wrote:
                      >
                      > >There are no "Romano-Vlach-Albanian semi-nomads". "Vlach" is an old,
                      > >mediaeval Slavic name for Romanians - both North-Danubian Romanians
                      > >(Daco-Romanians) and South-Danubian Romanians (Macedo-Romanians,
                      > >Megleno-Romanians, Istro-Romanians and the extinct Maurovlachoi).
                      > >The Slavs used this name initially for Romans generally, later it was
                      > >restricted to the Romance speaking neighbors of the Slavs - Romanians
                      > >or Italians. The Albanians are different from the Romanians (Vlachs),
                      > >although their languages share a common Thracian substratum.
                      > >
                      >
                      > I am totally unfamiliar with these languages.
                      > But it occurred to me that the word VLACH is similar in some ways
                      > to the German word "Welsch". Could there be a connection?
                      > (like in Kauder-Welsch = incomprehensible gibberish)
                      > Also, in Switzerland there is Kanton Wallis.
                      >
                      > Hope you can elucidate some of this.
                      >
                      > Best regards
                      > Keth
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                      > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                      >
                    • bertil
                      F., Think I have to agree with Keth here. We are looking forward to some more details on this fascinating story. Please continue. Gothically Bertil
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 26, 2001
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                        F.,

                        Think I have to agree with Keth here.
                        We are looking forward to some more
                        details on this fascinating story.

                        Please continue.

                        Gothically

                        Bertil

                        > I am totally unfamiliar with these languages.
                        > But it occurred to me that the word VLACH is similar in some ways
                        > to the German word "Welsch". Could there be a connection?
                        > (like in Kauder-Welsch = incomprehensible gibberish)
                        > Also, in Switzerland there is Kanton Wallis.
                        >
                        > Hope you can elucidate some of this.
                      • sig
                        From Sweden a me too : There is a Swedish adjective välsk meaning the same thing, having the same etymology. Seigmundr ... [Non-text portions of this
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 26, 2001
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                          From Sweden a "me too":

                          There is a Swedish adjective "välsk" meaning the same thing,
                          having the same etymology.

                          Seigmundr

                          Fritscher wrote:
                          >
                          > There is a connection between the Slavic 'Vlach' and the English
                          > 'Welch'.
                          > It is related to the Germanic word for foreign or foreigner.
                          >
                          > For example:
                          >
                          > 'Wealh' is the Old English word meaning foreigner.
                          >
                          > The Slavs probably referred to the Romanians as 'foreigners' since they
                          > spoke a non-Slavic language.
                          >
                          > -Carl
                          >
                          > On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 keth@... wrote:
                          >
                          > > Francisc Czobor wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >There are no "Romano-Vlach-Albanian semi-nomads". "Vlach" is an old,
                          > > >mediaeval Slavic name for Romanians - both North-Danubian Romanians
                          > > >(Daco-Romanians) and South-Danubian Romanians (Macedo-Romanians,
                          > > >Megleno-Romanians, Istro-Romanians and the extinct Maurovlachoi).
                          > > >The Slavs used this name initially for Romans generally, later it was
                          > > >restricted to the Romance speaking neighbors of the Slavs - Romanians
                          > > >or Italians. The Albanians are different from the Romanians (Vlachs),
                          > > >although their languages share a common Thracian substratum.
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > I am totally unfamiliar with these languages.
                          > > But it occurred to me that the word VLACH is similar in some ways
                          > > to the German word "Welsch". Could there be a connection?
                          > > (like in Kauder-Welsch = incomprehensible gibberish)
                          > > Also, in Switzerland there is Kanton Wallis.
                          > >
                          > > Hope you can elucidate some of this.
                          > >
                          > > Best regards
                          > > Keth
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                          > > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                          > >
                          >
                          > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                          > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • czobor@cantacuzino.ro
                          Hi, Keth The Slavic term is of Germanic origin. The old Germanic term, *walha-, was applied initially to the Celts (it was the Germanic variant of Volcae, a
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 26, 2001
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                            Hi, Keth

                            The Slavic term is of Germanic origin.
                            The old Germanic term, *walha-, was applied initially to the Celts (it
                            was the Germanic variant of Volcae, a Celtic tribe name, that was
                            generalised later to all the Celts). Then, when the Celtic territories
                            became parts of the Roman Empire, that term was used by the old
                            Germans also for Romans. Later, it was applied by different Germanic
                            peoples to their direct Celtic or Romanic neighbors.
                            Examples:
                            OHG walh(a) "Roman", derived adjective walhisc "Romanic, Romance"
                            OHG walhisc became in modern German Welsch, meaning Italian or French
                            (derogatory), and also an incoprehensible language, as in
                            "Kauderwelsch"
                            Dutch-Flemish: Waals "Walon" (the direct Romanic neighbors of the
                            Flemish)
                            O. English wealh-, derived adjective wealhisc, that became in Modern
                            English Wales, Welsh, referring to the direct Celtic neighbors of the
                            English.
                            Old Norse Valir "Celtic, Roman"
                            The old Germanic word was borrowed in old Slavic: *walha- > *volhu
                            In the Slavic languages, the term was referring initially to the
                            Romans, later to the direct Romanic neighbors of different Slavic
                            peoples, namely to Romanians or Italians:
                            Serb, Bulgarian: vlach or vlah "Romanian" (Plural: vlasi)
                            Slovenian: lah "Italian"
                            Polish: wloch "Italian", Wlochy "Italy"
                            Russish & Ukrainian (now obsolete): voloh "Romanian"
                            The name of the Romanian province of Valahia (or Walahia) is a
                            combination of the South-Slavic term (vlah) and the East-Slavic term
                            (voloh).
                            From a South-Slavic language, the word was borrowed in Hungarian.
                            The singular form, vlah, became olah "Romanian" (now derogatory)
                            The plural form, vlasi, became olasz "Italian" (the only term for
                            "Italian" in Hungarian, whence also Olaszorszag "Italy", literally
                            "Italian land")
                            From Slavic, the word entered also some oriental languages:
                            Arabic walak "Romanian" (obsolete)
                            Turkish iflak "Romanian" (obsolete)
                            The South-Slavic variant "vlach" is used today by the Greeks and by
                            the Slavic-speaking Macedonians to denominate the South-Danubian
                            Romanians (Macedo-Romanians and Megleno-Romanians).

                            I hope that you will be content with this information.
                            Anyway, it's all I know.

                            Francisc

                            --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                            >
                            > I am totally unfamiliar with these languages.
                            > But it occurred to me that the word VLACH is similar in some ways
                            > to the German word "Welsch". Could there be a connection?
                            > (like in Kauder-Welsch = incomprehensible gibberish)
                            > Also, in Switzerland there is Kanton Wallis.
                            >
                            > Hope you can elucidate some of this.
                            >
                            > Best regards
                            > Keth
                          • bertil
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 26, 2001
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                              Den 26 Jan 2001 skrev sig:

                              > From Sweden a "me too":
                              >
                              > There is a Swedish adjective "välsk" meaning the same thing,
                              > having the same etymology.
                              >
                              > Seigmundr
                              >
                              > Fritscher wrote:
                              > >
                              > > There is a connection between the Slavic 'Vlach' and the English
                              > > 'Welch'.
                              > > It is related to the Germanic word for foreign or foreigner.
                              > >
                              > > For example:
                              > >
                              > > 'Wealh' is the Old English word meaning foreigner.
                              > >
                              > > The Slavs probably referred to the Romanians as 'foreigners' since they
                              > > spoke a non-Slavic language.
                              > >
                              > > -Carl
                              > >
                              > > On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 keth@... wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Francisc Czobor wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > >There are no "Romano-Vlach-Albanian semi-nomads". "Vlach" is an old,
                              > > > >mediaeval Slavic name for Romanians - both North-Danubian Romanians
                              > > > >(Daco-Romanians) and South-Danubian Romanians (Macedo-Romanians,
                              > > > >Megleno-Romanians, Istro-Romanians and the extinct Maurovlachoi).
                              > > > >The Slavs used this name initially for Romans generally, later it was
                              > > > >restricted to the Romance speaking neighbors of the Slavs - Romanians
                              > > > >or Italians. The Albanians are different from the Romanians (Vlachs),
                              > > > >although their languages share a common Thracian substratum.
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > I am totally unfamiliar with these languages.
                              > > > But it occurred to me that the word VLACH is similar in some ways
                              > > > to the German word "Welsch". Could there be a connection?
                              > > > (like in Kauder-Welsch = incomprehensible gibberish)
                              > > > Also, in Switzerland there is Kanton Wallis.
                              > > >
                              > > > Hope you can elucidate some of this.
                              > > >
                              > > > Best regards
                              > > > Keth
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                              > > > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                              > > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                              > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                              >
                            • keth@online.no
                              Dear Francisc, thank you very very much for all the information! I am especially struck by the wide geographic range of the word. It leads one to think that
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 27, 2001
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                                Dear Francisc,
                                thank you very very much for all the information!

                                I am especially struck by the wide geographic range of the word.
                                It leads one to think that people must have travelled quite a lot
                                during these centuries. I have also seen the word used in an old
                                (15th century) German text. But I do not remember in what volume
                                it was, and what I remember is only something like "Ich bin kein
                                welscher" or some such expression of mistrust. I also have the
                                impression that attitudes that were linked to the use of this word
                                can explain some of the traditional difficulties for example
                                in the German/French border regions.

                                German: Welsch =adjective ="aus Welschland".
                                Dutch: Waals (adj), for example Waals Vlaanderen = the French
                                speaking part of Flanders. Wallonië = the southern part of
                                Belgium (the French part).
                                Old Norse: Valir m.pl. =inhabitant of Northern France.
                                Valland n. =Northwestern France.
                                velska f.=the language of Northern France ( velsk mål).
                                valskr adj. ="which is from Northern France".

                                I find it especially interesting to see that there are so many
                                forms of this word documented in Old Norse (4 forms):
                                valskr maðr, valskt mál (=völskumál), völsk tunga, völsk míla,
                                valskr hjalmr, völsk mús (= a rat).
                                Þar við Furzuborg koma leiðir saman þeirra manna er fara of
                                Mundiofjall suðr, Frakkar, Flæmingjar, Valir, Englar, Saxar,
                                Norðmenn. -- Hin fegrstu hljóð er syngja Valir ok Bretar.
                                Is it possible from these forms to *reconstruct older
                                Norse forms, or perhaps to give an estimate of the period
                                in which the term first became used in Norse?
                                A reasonable guess would be that it has something to do
                                with early contacts with the Franks. (or Flanders/Friesland)
                                The fact that the word "wielisc" was also applied to people from
                                Wales in Old English, may indicate that the word came with
                                the Saxons to England.

                                But the word is absent from Gothic, or what do you say?

                                Best regards,
                                Keth


                                Hi, Keth
                                >
                                >The Slavic term is of Germanic origin.
                                >The old Germanic term, *walha-, was applied initially to the Celts (it
                                >was the Germanic variant of Volcae, a Celtic tribe name, that was
                                >generalised later to all the Celts). Then, when the Celtic territories
                                >became parts of the Roman Empire, that term was used by the old
                                >Germans also for Romans. Later, it was applied by different Germanic
                                >peoples to their direct Celtic or Romanic neighbors.
                                >Examples:
                                >OHG walh(a) "Roman", derived adjective walhisc "Romanic, Romance"
                                >OHG walhisc became in modern German Welsch, meaning Italian or French
                                >(derogatory), and also an incoprehensible language, as in
                                >"Kauderwelsch"
                                >Dutch-Flemish: Waals "Walon" (the direct Romanic neighbors of the
                                >Flemish)
                                >O. English wealh-, derived adjective wealhisc, that became in Modern
                                >English Wales, Welsh, referring to the direct Celtic neighbors of the
                                >English.
                                >Old Norse Valir "Celtic, Roman"
                                >The old Germanic word was borrowed in old Slavic: *walha- > *volhu
                                >In the Slavic languages, the term was referring initially to the
                                >Romans, later to the direct Romanic neighbors of different Slavic
                                >peoples, namely to Romanians or Italians:
                                >Serb, Bulgarian: vlach or vlah "Romanian" (Plural: vlasi)
                                >Slovenian: lah "Italian"
                                >Polish: wloch "Italian", Wlochy "Italy"
                                >Russish & Ukrainian (now obsolete): voloh "Romanian"
                                >The name of the Romanian province of Valahia (or Walahia) is a
                                >combination of the South-Slavic term (vlah) and the East-Slavic term
                                >(voloh).
                                >From a South-Slavic language, the word was borrowed in Hungarian.
                                >The singular form, vlah, became olah "Romanian" (now derogatory)
                                >The plural form, vlasi, became olasz "Italian" (the only term for
                                >"Italian" in Hungarian, whence also Olaszorszag "Italy", literally
                                >"Italian land")
                                >From Slavic, the word entered also some oriental languages:
                                >Arabic walak "Romanian" (obsolete)
                                >Turkish iflak "Romanian" (obsolete)
                                >The South-Slavic variant "vlach" is used today by the Greeks and by
                                >the Slavic-speaking Macedonians to denominate the South-Danubian
                                >Romanians (Macedo-Romanians and Megleno-Romanians).
                                >
                                >I hope that you will be content with this information.
                                >Anyway, it's all I know.
                                >
                                >Francisc
                                >
                                >--- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                                >>
                                >> I am totally unfamiliar with these languages.
                                >> But it occurred to me that the word VLACH is similar in some ways
                                >> to the German word "Welsch". Could there be a connection?
                                >> (like in Kauder-Welsch = incomprehensible gibberish)
                                >> Also, in Switzerland there is Kanton Wallis.
                                >>
                                >> Hope you can elucidate some of this.
                                >>
                                >> Best regards
                                >> Keth
                                >
                                >
                                >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                                >to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                >Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                              • czobor@cantacuzino.ro
                                ... I think that it is rather unattested in Gothic. Wulfila calls the Romans Rumons , but I think that it s possible that it existed in Gothic also the word
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jan 28, 2001
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                                  --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:

                                  > But the word is absent from Gothic, or what do you say?
                                  >
                                  > Best regards,
                                  > Keth

                                  I think that it is rather unattested in Gothic.
                                  Wulfila calls the Romans "Rumons", but I think that it's possible that
                                  it existed in Gothic also the word *wal(a)ha- or something like this.
                                  The common Slavic word could been borrowed most probably from Gothic,
                                  having in view that the oldest Germanic words in Common Slavic were
                                  from Gothic, later also OHG and Old Norse.

                                  Francisc

                                  GUTANI WIHAILG
                                • tiefi@yahoo.com
                                  sorry for the semi-nomad. Albanians and Vlachs were wandering herdsmen in their early times, and there are interesting theories that most of Bosnian Serbs and
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jan 29, 2001
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                                    sorry for the semi-nomad.

                                    Albanians and Vlachs were wandering herdsmen in their early times,
                                    and there are interesting theories that most of Bosnian Serbs and
                                    many Kosovar Albanians & Serbs descend from the wandering Vlachs
                                    (lots of evidence around Ohrid and in Turk documents), and that they
                                    are the forefathers of the Romanians (rather than romanized
                                    Dacians...)
                                    this is heavily disputed, but would deprive the base of Serb and
                                    Albanian nationalism.

                                    but however:
                                    what i meant is that Vlach routes span over big parts of the Balkans
                                    and they have formed from 'backwardish' Roman settlers, fleeing the
                                    Slav expansion.
                                    maybe Goths have joined them (or they were Goths originally).

                                    I don't know if there have been studies on their language regarding
                                    possible germanic influence, because few kept their language (there
                                    are some in northern Greece, "Aromuns" i think, and some in Bulgaria,
                                    Bosnia, Dalmatia but most gave up their tounge for the dominating one)
                                  • czobor@cantacuzino.ro
                                    Dear Tiefi, Don t say sorry for the semi-nomad , because it seems that the early Romanian ( Vlach ) shepherds were indeed semi-nomad (or at least transhumant,
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                      Dear Tiefi,

                                      Don't say "sorry for the semi-nomad", because it seems that the early
                                      Romanian ("Vlach") shepherds were indeed semi-nomad (or at least
                                      transhumant, as are even today the Romanian and "Aromun" shepherds),
                                      and that they represented then the greater part of the Romanian
                                      population.
                                      There is evidence that the semi-nomad "Vlach" shepherds reached in the
                                      early Middle-Age also parts of Ukraina, Czechia, and Poland. There is
                                      today an ethnic group in Moravia (Czech Republic), that is called
                                      "Vlach". They speak the Chech language today, but they were originally
                                      such semi-nomad Vlach shepherds.
                                      Regarding the South-Danubian Romanians, it is necessarily to mention
                                      that the East-Romanic peoples are divided into four branches, one
                                      north-danubian and three south-danubian. Their languages are regarded
                                      either as dialects of a single language, or closely related, but
                                      distinct Romance languages.
                                      1. Daco-Romanians, or simply Romanians, the north-danubian branch, are
                                      the majoritary inhabitants of Romania and of the Republic of Moldova
                                      (the so-called "Moldavians" speak the same language as the Romanians).
                                      2. Macedo-Romanians or "Aromuns", living mainly in Northern Greece (in
                                      the Pindus Mountains), but also in South Albania, in the southern part
                                      of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), and also a few
                                      in south-west Bulgaria, as well as immigrants in Romania. Their number
                                      is between 300,000 and 500,000, and a great part of them still speak
                                      (at least at home) the Macedo-Romanian or "Aromun" dialect.
                                      3. Megleno-Romanians (closely related to the Macedo-Romanians), that
                                      live in the Meglen region, that is shared by Greece (North-East)and
                                      Fyrom (South-East). Their number is several thousands, and at least
                                      half of them still speak the Megleno-Romanian dialect at home.
                                      4. Istro-Romanian, in Istria Peninsula (belonging to Coratia). They
                                      are a few thosand, and their Istro-Romanian dialect (that is more
                                      closely related to Daco-Romanian than to the other two south-danubian
                                      dialects) is nearly extinct.
                                      It is worth to mention that the Macedo-Romanians (Aromuns) and
                                      Megleno-Romanians are still today called by their Greek and Slavic
                                      neighbors with the name "Vlach".
                                      There were also another major Romance-speaking groups in the mediaeval
                                      Balkans. like the Maurovlachoi ("Black Vlachs", in Greek), or Morlacs,
                                      but they were from long time assimilated by other Balkanic peoples.

                                      The origin of the Romanians is indeed very disputed. There are two
                                      main theories:
                                      1. The Romanians are the descendants of romanized Dacians, and they
                                      lived continuously on this territory. This is the "continuity theory",
                                      the official one in Romania. The south-danubian Romanians (Aromuns and
                                      others), according to thhis theory, emigrated there later, form Dacia,
                                      unnder the pressuure of the Slavic migration.
                                      2. Dacia was depopulated during the migrations. The Romanian people
                                      was formed somewhere south of the Danube, and (re-)immigrated in Dacia
                                      during the Middle-Age. The south-danubian Romanians are the remnants
                                      of those that did not emigrate to Dacia. This is the "immigrationist
                                      theory".

                                      Regarding the origin and use of the term "Vlach" and the few
                                      presumably East-Germanic (Gothic-Gepidic) words preserved in Romanian,
                                      see my previous messages on this subject.

                                      Best regards,

                                      Francisc

                                      GUTANI WIHAILAG

                                      --- In gothic-l@y..., tiefi@y... wrote:
                                      > sorry for the semi-nomad.
                                      >
                                      > Albanians and Vlachs were wandering herdsmen in their early times,
                                      > and there are interesting theories that most of Bosnian Serbs and
                                      > many Kosovar Albanians & Serbs descend from the wandering Vlachs
                                      > (lots of evidence around Ohrid and in Turk documents), and that they
                                      > are the forefathers of the Romanians (rather than romanized
                                      > Dacians...)
                                      > this is heavily disputed, but would deprive the base of Serb and
                                      > Albanian nationalism.
                                      >
                                      > but however:
                                      > what i meant is that Vlach routes span over big parts of the Balkans
                                      > and they have formed from 'backwardish' Roman settlers, fleeing the
                                      > Slav expansion.
                                      > maybe Goths have joined them (or they were Goths originally).
                                      >
                                      > I don't know if there have been studies on their language regarding
                                      > possible germanic influence, because few kept their language (there
                                      > are some in northern Greece, "Aromuns" i think, and some in
                                      Bulgaria,
                                      > Bosnia, Dalmatia but most gave up their tounge for the dominating
                                      one)
                                    • andrei_stirbu
                                      ... language but ... tribes of ... Rumanians. You have to know that Romanians appears in the earliest documents as sedentary and agricultory people, not as
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 19, 2006
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                                        > I thought that:-
                                        > Albanian was descended from Illyrian rather than Thracian.
                                        > The Vlachs are descended from Illyrians who were Latinized in
                                        language but
                                        > kept some Illyrian words in such areas as mountain shepherding.
                                        > What is now Rumania was almost completely depopulated by invading
                                        tribes of
                                        > steppe nomads from the east after the Roman Empire broke up, and it was
                                        > gradually repopulated later by Vlachs, and those became the modern
                                        Rumanians.



                                        You have to know that Romanians appears in the earliest documents as
                                        sedentary and agricultory people, not as shepperds.

                                        is hard to believe that groups of shepperds founded a sedentary
                                        people. In fact is hard to believe that a migration would not leave
                                        traces in the conscious of the ancestors of the Romanians or that any
                                        kind of migration would lead to a peren a people in the absence of a
                                        political-military organization.
                                      • andrei_stirbu
                                        ... There is a book called Ethnic contacts and cultural exchanges north and west of the Black Sea , published in 2005 at Iasi, at Trinitas editorial house. In
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 19, 2006
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                                          > These Romanian words of presumably Gothic/Gepidic origin are:
                                          >
                                          > ba^lca~ "jug, mug" < Gep. *bollika, cf. O.Eng. bolla "vessel, cup",
                                          > OHG bolla "round vessel"
                                          > bulz "clod" < Gep. *bultja or *bulti, cf. MHG bulte "clod, boulder,
                                          > heap", Low German Buelte "heap, knoll"
                                          > nasture "button" < Got. nestilo "cord, string" or OHG nestila "bow,
                                          > ribbon"
                                          > rapa~n "itch" < Got.-Gep. rappo (Gen. rappons), cf. MHG rapfe "itch"
                                          > sta~rnut "with white-spotted forehead (about horses)" < Got. stairno
                                          > or Gep. *sterno or OHG sterno "star", cf. Swed. stjerna
                                          > "star; white spot on horse's forehead"
                                          > strugure "grape" < Got. *thrubilo or Gep. *struwilo (cf. MHG trubel
                                          > < OHG triuba "grape")
                                          > targa~ "stretcher" < Got./Gep. *targa, cf. OHG zarga "enclosure"
                                          > tureci "trousers, pants" < Got. *theuhbrok or Gep. *theubreki, cf.
                                          > OHG theohproch, diohpruoch "trousers"
                                          > zgudui "to shake" < Gep. *skudojan, cf. O.Sax. skuddian "tremble,
                                          > shake", O.Fris. skedda "push, shake", OHG scutten, scuien
                                          > "shake, stir, pour"





                                          There is a book called "Ethnic contacts and cultural exchanges north
                                          and west of the Black Sea", published in 2005 at Iasi, at Trinitas
                                          editorial house. In an article called "Lexical elements that reflect
                                          close contacts between old germanic and autochtonous populations in
                                          southeast Europe" by Alexandru Poruciuc (
                                          http://mail.lit.uaic.ro/cursuridevara/cvporuciuc.pdf
                                          http://mail.lit.uaic.ro/cursuridevara/staff.htm ) it is sayed, among
                                          others:


                                          "...In all, we can count on over 70 Romanian words for which Old
                                          Germanic origins can be safely assumed..."

                                          "...There also is a similarity between the character of the Old
                                          Germanics of th Romanian and that of the Ostrogothic elements of
                                          Italian..."


                                          "...All evidence sustains the idea that old Germanic populations
                                          couldd influence pre-Romanians..."


                                          "...Words of provable Old Germanic origin (e.g. barda, cioareci, gard,
                                          rapan) survive in both Daco/Romanian and Macedo/Romanian (However, it
                                          is woth observing that Daco/Romanian - and, implicitly, the standard
                                          language of Romana -is by far richer than Macedo/Romanian in temrs of
                                          old Germanic origins)..."

                                          These are the words I extracted from the article:


                                          a ateia
                                          -barda
                                          -bort
                                          -brusture
                                          -burta
                                          -a caina
                                          -a cotropi
                                          -fara
                                          -filma (zâna rea)
                                          -grind
                                          -rânc
                                          -rapan
                                          -ruda
                                          -scruntar+simcea
                                          -stranut
                                          -stinghie
                                          -stima
                                          -tufa
                                          -tureac
                                          -bordei
                                          -buda
                                          -gaman
                                          -holm
                                          -hultui
                                          -rânca
                                          -rânciog
                                          -scrânciob
                                          -tala
                                          -teafar
                                          -plug
                                          -punga
                                          -rând
                                          -scrada
                                          -slin
                                          -aldan
                                          -a banui
                                          -a bântui
                                          -bernevici
                                          -brândusa
                                          -bumb
                                          -bunda
                                          -boarta
                                          -cioareci
                                          -ciuf
                                          -cocon
                                          -cotiga
                                          -cotingan
                                          -gata
                                          -gati
                                          -ghibort
                                          -grindei
                                          -grindel
                                          -grundet
                                          -grunz
                                          -hânsar
                                          -însaila
                                          -julfa
                                          -targa
                                          -nasture
                                          -smalt
                                          -smida
                                          -sprintar
                                          -stean
                                          -sturlubatic
                                          -troaca
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