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Lukman

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  • Bertil Häggman
    Frank, Many have doubts concerning Lukman. Is there an English edition? Have only seen an edition in German language. Lukman developed the theory that the
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 15, 2001
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      Frank,

      Many have doubts concerning Lukman.
      Is there an English edition? Have only seen
      an edition in German language. Lukman
      developed the theory that the Skjoldungar-
      Skilfingar cycle, known from Beowulf, Saxo
      and some later Icelandic sagas, was originally
      brought to Gautland/Goetaland by the Erules.

      There is also the theory that the famous poem
      on the "Battle of the Goths and the Huns" was created
      on the basis of Gautish material transmitted by the
      Erules.

      Gothically

      Bertil


      > Niels Lukman was the first scholar I read (though not the first to write, I
      > don't think) who related the Scyldingas of Beowulf to the Heruls basically
      > in the territory of Dacia--Dacians becoming confused with Danes, and
      > resulting in the "importation" of these Heruli into Danish legend.
    • keth@online.no
      ... Yet, he seems to be the only one to systematically study the subject at the time. ... I forget whether his Ph.D. thesis was in Danish or German. But he
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 16, 2001
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        Bertil wrote:

        >
        >Many have doubts concerning Lukman.

        Yet, he seems to be the only one to systematically study
        the subject at the time.

        >Is there an English edition?

        I forget whether his Ph.D. thesis was in Danish or German.
        But he later wrote several books in Dainsh.

        >Have only seen
        >an edition in German language.

        Was that his Ph.D. thesis?
        I can try to set up a bibliography if you are interested.

        Keth
      • Frank Kermes
        ... So do I. Though _Skjoldunge und Skilfinge: Hunnen- un Herulerkonige_ was the first work _I_ read that did not take the identification of Hrothgar s Danes
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 16, 2001
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          >Many have doubts concerning Lukman.

          So do I. Though _Skjoldunge und Skilfinge: Hunnen- un Herulerkonige_ was
          the first work _I_ read that did not take the identification of Hrothgar's
          Danes with Leijre at face value.

          >Is there an English edition? Have only seen
          >an edition in German language.

          No English version, but some of us Arabs _do_ know German :)


          Lukman
          >developed the theory that the Skjoldungar-
          >Skilfingar cycle, known from Beowulf, Saxo
          >and some later Icelandic sagas, was originally
          >brought to Gautland/Goetaland by the Erules.

          Though I agree that the identification of Hrolf Kraki/Hrothulf with the
          Herulan chief Roduulf (who was adopted as "son-in-arms" by Theoderic in
          Ravenna) is fairly compelling, I don't see the whole of both cycles being
          that easily traced to the Heruli. Oral tradition is a little too malleable,
          I think, for it to be so easily incorporated--and what about native
          traditions?

          But to move to something more Gothic--The Goths and the Geatas were probably
          the same people at some (early) point, but by the time we hear of either
          one, in Scandanavia or in the Vistula basin, they're arleady separated
          geographically, and possibly culturally (the names aren't quite the same).
          When we hear of Hygelac's raid on the Hetwares in the 5th century, however,
          I think (if he is in fact a Geat) it would be rather strange to consider the
          Geats "Goths" in the same way as Theoderic's Ostrogoths in the same period
          were "Goths."

          Cheers,
          Frank
          _________________________________________________________________
          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
        • Bertil Häggman
          Keth, Thanks for the offer, but I can easily check with REX of the Royal Library in Copenhagen. Gothically Bertil
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 16, 2001
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            Keth,

            Thanks for the offer, but I can easily
            check with REX of the Royal Library
            in Copenhagen.

            Gothically

            Bertil

            > Was that his Ph.D. thesis?
            > I can try to set up a bibliography if you are interested.
          • keth@online.no
            ... I have seen Dr.N.Lukman rated very highly, for example by Dr.Lars Hemmingsen of the University of Copenhagen some years ago. ... His early work was mostly
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 20, 2001
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              Bertil Häggman wrote:

              >Many have doubts concerning Lukman.

              I have seen Dr.N.Lukman rated very highly, for example by Dr.Lars Hemmingsen
              of the University of Copenhagen some years ago.

              >Is there an English edition?

              His early work was mostly in Danish and German.
              But I do see something in English from 1948.

              >Have only seen an edition in German language.

              He wrote a lot in his native language too.
              But his dissertation was written in German.
              I was able to find the following publications between 1941 and 1949,
              which list was drawn up by N.Lukman himself in 1949:

              Bøger:
              ------
              Didreks Saga og Theoderics Historie. Fra Historie til Saga og Folkevise,
              1941. 96 S. - Anm. V. Jansson, Lychnos 1943, 336-37.
              Skjoldunge und Skilfinge. Hunnen- und Herulerkönige in ostnordischer
              Überlieferung. (Disp.) 1943. 207 S. - Anm. V. Jansson, Lychnos 1944-45,
              396-61; E. Lönnroth, Dagens Nyheter 9/6 1943; W.A.Berendsohn, Ark.
              f.n.fil. 57 (1943-44), 251-55; I.M.Boberg, Fortid og Nutid 15 (1944),
              191-95 og APhS 18 (1945), 257-67 (jvf. min Replik sst. 19, 141-42);
              H.Bach, Aarhus Stiftstidende 9/6 1943; G.Schütte, Danske studier
              1942 (1944), 81-100.
              Ermanaric hos Jordanes og Saxo. 1949. 76 S.

              Tidsskriftafhandlinger. (APhS= Acta Phil. Scand.; ClM= Classica et Mediaevalia).
              -----------------------
              Korte Anmeldelser i Hist. Tidsskr. etc.
              Nogle Navne fra Vederloven. APhS 11 (1936), 82-90.
              Ritter Tynne und Choten Bludovic. Alarics Zug gegen Rom im Jahre 408 und
              die Entführung Placidias in nordischer und russischer Überlieferung.
              APhS 14 (1940), 211-72.
              Der historische Wolfdietrich. Theodorich der Grosse. ClM 3 (1940), 253-
              -84 og 4 (1941), 1-61.
              British and Danish Traditions. Some contacts and relations. ClM 6 (1944),
              72-109. - Jvf. G. Schütte APhS 10 (1948), 179-96.
              Saxos Kendskab til Galfred af Monmouth. (Da.) Hist. Tidsskr. 10/6 (1944),
              503-603.
              Vore Eddaoversættelser. Gads Da. Magasin 1946, 387-401.
              Goterne i Heidreks Saga. En tradition om Athanaric, død 381. Aarb. f.n.
              Oldkyndighed 1946, 103-20. - Jvf. G.Schütte sst. 1946, 258-66.
              Om Udgivelsen af Sagalitteraturen. Nord. Tidsskr. (Letterst.) 1948, 12-24.

              I trykken (Marts 1949):
              ---------
              Ælnod. Et bindeled mellem dansk og anglonormannisk Historieskrivning o.
              1120. (Da.) Hist. Tidsskr. ca. 15 S.
              The Catalaunian Battle A.D. 451 in Medieval Epics. Hjaðingavíg, Kudrun,
              Saxo, Widsith. ClM ca. 80 S.


              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              I think it is clear from this early publication list, that N.Lukman
              was well read and quite productive in his field of interest, which
              seems to center around the topic of heroic legend in connection
              with the Migration age. As you can see, he was also taken seriously
              by his peers.

              With best regards
              Keth
            • keth@online.no
              Niels Clausen Lukman devoted many years to the study of heroic legend. I here found some more information about his dissertation: Classica et Mediaevalia *
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 29, 2001
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                Niels Clausen Lukman devoted many years to the study
                of heroic legend. I here found some more information
                about his dissertation:

                Classica et Mediaevalia * Dissertationes III
                _____________________________________________


                S K J O L D U N G E

                U N D S K I L F I N G E


                Hunnen- und Herulerkönige
                in
                ostnordischer Überlieferung



                von
                NIELS CLAUSEN LUKMAN




                GYLDENDAL
                ________________
                ----------------
                KØBENHAVN 1943


                ______________________________________________

                8vo - 207 paginas. The volume includes an index
                and a Danish resumé. On page 82 he has the
                following conclusion:

                Konklusion: Adils=Attila, Haldan=Huldin.

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





                Regards,
                Keth
              • Friþunanþs Ximeneiks
                Hej Keth, I have the stated dissertation right next to me, it was sent to me some three years ago by professor Lars Hemmingsen, Lukman s protegé. The
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 29, 2001
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                  Hej Keth,

                  I have the stated dissertation right next to me, it was sent to me some
                  three years ago by professor Lars Hemmingsen, Lukman's protegé.
                  The dissertation is signed, and has a greeting from professor Lukman who
                  was "obviously" still living when I received same.
                  Unfortunately, I have yet to translate the darn thing.

                  Friþunanþs Ximeneiks



                  keth@... wrote:

                  > Niels Clausen Lukman devoted many years to the study
                  > of heroic legend. I here found some more information
                  > about his dissertation:
                  >
                  > Classica et Mediaevalia * Dissertationes III
                  > _____________________________________________
                  >
                  >
                  > S K J O L D U N G E
                  >
                  > U N D S K I L F I N G E
                  >
                  >
                  > Hunnen- und Herulerkönige
                  > in
                  > ostnordischer Überlieferung
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > von
                  > NIELS CLAUSEN LUKMAN
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > GYLDENDAL
                  > ________________
                  > ----------------
                  > KØBENHAVN 1943
                  >
                  >
                  > ______________________________________________
                  >
                  > 8vo - 207 paginas. The volume includes an index
                  > and a Danish resumé. On page 82 he has the
                  > following conclusion:
                  >
                  > Konklusion: Adils=Attila, Haldan=Huldin.
                  >
                  > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Keth


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • dirk@smra.co.uk
                  ... some ... who ... Hello, this dissertation is not a file, is it? If it is I would be grateful to receive the file by e-mail. thanks Dirk
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 30, 2001
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                    --- In gothic-l@y..., Friþunanþs Ximeneiks <jimenezf@a...> wrote:
                    > Hej Keth,
                    >
                    > I have the stated dissertation right next to me, it was sent to me
                    some
                    > three years ago by professor Lars Hemmingsen, Lukman's protegé.
                    > The dissertation is signed, and has a greeting from professor Lukman
                    who
                    > was "obviously" still living when I received same.
                    > Unfortunately, I have yet to translate the darn thing.
                    >
                    > Friþunanþs Ximeneiks
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > keth@o... wrote:
                    >
                    > > Niels Clausen Lukman devoted many years to the study
                    > > of heroic legend. I here found some more information
                    > > about his dissertation:
                    > >
                    > > Classica et Mediaevalia * Dissertationes III
                    > > _____________________________________________
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > S K J O L D U N G E
                    > >
                    > > U N D S K I L F I N G E
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hunnen- und Herulerkönige
                    > > in
                    > > ostnordischer Überlieferung
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > von
                    > > NIELS CLAUSEN LUKMAN
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > GYLDENDAL
                    > > ________________
                    > > ----------------
                    > > KØBENHAVN 1943
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ______________________________________________
                    > >
                    > > 8vo - 207 paginas. The volume includes an index
                    > > and a Danish resumé. On page 82 he has the
                    > > following conclusion:
                    > >
                    > > Konklusion: Adils=Attila, Haldan=Huldin.
                    > >
                    > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Regards,
                    > > Keth
                    >

                    Hello,

                    this dissertation is not a file, is it? If it is I would be grateful
                    to receive the file by e-mail.

                    thanks
                    Dirk





                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ingemar.nordgren@ebox.tninet.se
                    ... So would I, please! Regards Ingemar
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 30, 2001
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                      > > > _____________________________________________
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > S K J O L D U N G E
                      > > >
                      > > > U N D S K I L F I N G E
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Hunnen- und Herulerkönige
                      > > > in
                      > > > ostnordischer Überlieferung
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > von
                      > > > NIELS CLAUSEN LUKMAN
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > GYLDENDAL
                      > > > ________________
                      > > > ----------------
                      > > > KØBENHAVN 1943
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ______________________________________________
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello,
                      >
                      > this dissertation is not a file, is it? If it is I would be grateful
                      > to receive the file by e-mail.
                      >
                      > thanks
                      > Dirk

                      So would I, please!

                      Regards
                      Ingemar
                    • Friþunanþs Ximeneiks
                      Hej All, The Lukman dissertation is 200+ pages in bound book form. What I might consider doing is scanning the index with my OCR and seeing whether it will
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 30, 2001
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                        Hej All,
                        The Lukman dissertation is 200+ pages in bound book form.
                        What I might consider doing is scanning the "index" with my OCR and
                        seeing whether it will produce a viable text file. I have not tried the
                        latter when diacriticals are involved (as they are in this case). As for
                        the remainder; I think the Dansk Resumé, pp. 196-202 would be of
                        particular interest. - HOWEVER => Although the resumé has been in print
                        for over fifty years and there is no apparent copyright, please allow me
                        to ask Professor Dr. Hemmingsen and/or Professor Dr. Lukman for
                        permission to copy and distribute the contents. I am very sure it will
                        be ok but protocall should be observed.
                        Feel free to email me if you have other questions or if you have a
                        better idea on going about this.
                        Cheers,
                        Friþunanþs X.




                        ingemar.nordgren@... wrote:

                        >
                        > > Hello,
                        > >
                        > > this dissertation is not a file, is it? If it is I would be grateful
                        >
                        > > to receive the file by e-mail.
                        > >
                        > > thanks
                        > > Dirk
                        >
                        > So would I, please!
                        >
                        > Regards
                        > Ingemar
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • ingemar.nordgren@ebox.tninet.se
                        please allow me ... will ... Hello dear Friþunanþs X. Dont t trouble to much for my sake please. I can ask Lars himself directly instead. Haven t had
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 30, 2001
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                          please
                          allow me
                          > to ask Professor Dr. Hemmingsen and/or Professor Dr. Lukman for
                          > permission to copy and distribute the contents. I am very sure it
                          will
                          > be ok but protocall should be observed.
                          > Feel free to email me if you have other questions or if you have a
                          > better idea on going about this.
                          > Cheers,
                          > Friþunanþs X.


                          Hello dear Friþunanþs X.

                          Dont't trouble to much for my sake please. I can ask Lars himself
                          directly instead. Haven't had contact with him for a while anyhow.We
                          had a little chat about Lukman once before.

                          Tack för vänligheten i alla fall!
                          Ingemar
                        • Friþunanþs Ximeneiks
                          Dear Ingemar, and others interestd, I have already emailed Lars for Prof. Lukman´s permission to distribute the text. If I remember correctly, Lars had no
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 30, 2001
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                            Dear Ingemar, and others interestd,
                            I have already emailed Lars for Prof. Lukman´s permission to distribute
                            the text.
                            If I remember correctly, Lars had no extra copies at the time he sent me
                            the dissertation some three years ago, but feel free to try him if you
                            wish.
                            Cheers,
                            F.X.


                            >
                            > Hello dear Friþunanþs X.
                            >
                            > Dont't trouble to much for my sake please. I can ask Lars himself
                            > directly instead. Haven't had contact with him for a while anyhow.We
                            > had a little chat about Lukman once before.
                            >
                            > Tack för vänligheten i alla fall!
                            > Ingemar
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Friþunanþs Ximeneiks
                            Dear colleagues and others, An interesting posting by Prof. Lars Hemmingsen on the forum ANSAXNET concerning Professor Lukman s dissertation can be found at:
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 30, 2001
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                              Dear colleagues and others,
                              An interesting posting by Prof. Lars Hemmingsen on the forum ANSAXNET
                              concerning Professor Lukman's dissertation can be found at:
                              http://www.gendex.com/users/jast/D0014/G0000045.html

                              (I hope I did the link correctly)

                              Excerpt from the posting:
                              (Might step on a few toes, it is not meant as such)
                              "Eric Cristiansen . . . gives good evidence that many of the genealogies

                              of medieval Denmark are inaccurate or fraudulent, and that finding the
                              true lineage of the nobility is a difficult and perhaps a fruitless task
                              . . ."
                              No one ever contradicted Lukman, and only three or four people had the
                              knowledge and courage to make comments, notably Inge Skovgaard -
                              Petersen and Claus Krag in Norway. Lukman's thesis is in German, as you
                              probably noticed, but long out of print. . . .

                              The legendary Danish Skjoldung
                              (=Scylding) kings -- Halfdan, Helgi, Roar, Rolf, etc. -- never
                              set foot anywhere near Denmark. They are reflections of famous
                              Migration Age rulers on the lower Danube.

                              Cheers,
                              F.X.


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • keth@online.no
                              Dear F.X., thank you very much for your interest in Lukman. With regard to copy right, I suppose it is 50 years after an author s death that is internationally
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 1, 2001
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                                Dear F.X., thank you very much for your interest in Lukman.
                                With regard to copy right, I suppose it is 50 years after an author's
                                death that is internationally valid limit, which would certainly make
                                everything Lukman wrote copyright for the lifetime of most
                                people on this list. However, there is also a rule that
                                limited parts of "åndsverk" may be quoted for scientific purposes.
                                Hence, I cannot see any objection towards quoting a sentence or two,
                                here and there. But if you would be able to obtain an official
                                permit, that would be the best thing. And should any objection
                                arise, I think the polite thing to do would be to refrain from
                                quoting - though I think that would indeed be a great loss for
                                those who are now taking an interest in the results of his work,
                                as well as his thinking.



                                >Dear colleagues and others,
                                >An interesting posting by Prof. Lars Hemmingsen on the forum ANSAXNET
                                >concerning Professor Lukman's dissertation can be found at:
                                >http://www.gendex.com/users/jast/D0014/G0000045.html
                                >
                                >(I hope I did the link correctly)
                                >
                                >Excerpt from the posting:
                                >(Might step on a few toes, it is not meant as such)
                                >"Eric Cristiansen . . . gives good evidence that many of the genealogies
                                >
                                >of medieval Denmark are inaccurate or fraudulent, and that finding the
                                >true lineage of the nobility is a difficult and perhaps a fruitless task
                                >. . ."
                                >No one ever contradicted Lukman, and only three or four people had the
                                >knowledge and courage to make comments, notably Inge Skovgaard -
                                >Petersen and Claus Krag in Norway. Lukman's thesis is in German, as you
                                >probably noticed, but long out of print. . . .

                                Professor Claus Krag, as you probably know, wrote a dissertation on
                                Ynglingatal, where he shows that it is not an early poem (and
                                genealogy) as was previously thought. Krag's book is in Norwegian,
                                but contains an extensive English summary.

                                >The legendary Danish Skjoldung
                                >(=Scylding) kings -- Halfdan, Helgi, Roar, Rolf, etc. -- never
                                >set foot anywhere near Denmark. They are reflections of famous
                                >Migration Age rulers on the lower Danube.

                                Yes, but if Rolf Krake is seen as reflection of the Herul king
                                Rodulf, and if we are to believe Jordanes, who wrote not long
                                afterwards, then Rodulf actually was a king of parts of Norway,
                                who went down to Theodoric in Italy.

                                But then there are also those who have found evidence that there
                                was another "Thodoric", or better "Didrik", who was not the Theodoric
                                of Ravenna, but of *Soest* in Northern Germany. Aparrently all the
                                myths and legends got mixed together, with motifs borrowed in every
                                direction.

                                Best Regards
                                Keth
                              • Tore Gannholm
                                If we know who has the rights we can also ask for a permission to use the material, even make a reprint. Kind regards Tore Gannholm
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 2, 2001
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                                  If we know who has the rights we can also ask for a permission to use the
                                  material, even make a reprint.
                                  Kind regards Tore Gannholm

                                  >Dear F.X., thank you very much for your interest in Lukman.
                                  >With regard to copy right, I suppose it is 50 years after an author's
                                  >death that is internationally valid limit, which would certainly make
                                  >everything Lukman wrote copyright for the lifetime of most
                                  >people on this list. However, there is also a rule that
                                  >limited parts of "åndsverk" may be quoted for scientific purposes.
                                  >Hence, I cannot see any objection towards quoting a sentence or two,
                                  >here and there. But if you would be able to obtain an official
                                  >permit, that would be the best thing. And should any objection
                                  >arise, I think the polite thing to do would be to refrain from
                                  >quoting - though I think that would indeed be a great loss for
                                  >those who are now taking an interest in the results of his work,
                                  >as well as his thinking.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>Dear colleagues and others,
                                  >>An interesting posting by Prof. Lars Hemmingsen on the forum ANSAXNET
                                  >>concerning Professor Lukman's dissertation can be found at:
                                  >>http://www.gendex.com/users/jast/D0014/G0000045.html
                                  >>
                                  >>(I hope I did the link correctly)
                                  >>
                                  >>Excerpt from the posting:
                                  >>(Might step on a few toes, it is not meant as such)
                                  >>"Eric Cristiansen . . . gives good evidence that many of the genealogies
                                  >>
                                  >>of medieval Denmark are inaccurate or fraudulent, and that finding the
                                  >>true lineage of the nobility is a difficult and perhaps a fruitless task
                                  >>. . ."
                                  >>No one ever contradicted Lukman, and only three or four people had the
                                  >>knowledge and courage to make comments, notably Inge Skovgaard -
                                  >>Petersen and Claus Krag in Norway. Lukman's thesis is in German, as you
                                  >>probably noticed, but long out of print. . . .
                                  >
                                  >Professor Claus Krag, as you probably know, wrote a dissertation on
                                  >Ynglingatal, where he shows that it is not an early poem (and
                                  >genealogy) as was previously thought. Krag's book is in Norwegian,
                                  >but contains an extensive English summary.
                                  >
                                  >>The legendary Danish Skjoldung
                                  >>(=Scylding) kings -- Halfdan, Helgi, Roar, Rolf, etc. -- never
                                  >>set foot anywhere near Denmark. They are reflections of famous
                                  >>Migration Age rulers on the lower Danube.
                                  >
                                  >Yes, but if Rolf Krake is seen as reflection of the Herul king
                                  >Rodulf, and if we are to believe Jordanes, who wrote not long
                                  >afterwards, then Rodulf actually was a king of parts of Norway,
                                  >who went down to Theodoric in Italy.
                                  >
                                  >But then there are also those who have found evidence that there
                                  >was another "Thodoric", or better "Didrik", who was not the Theodoric
                                  >of Ravenna, but of *Soest* in Northern Germany. Aparrently all the
                                  >myths and legends got mixed together, with motifs borrowed in every
                                  >direction.
                                  >
                                  >Best Regards
                                  >Keth
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                                  >to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                  >Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                                • trbrandt@post9.tele.dk
                                  Keth, Dirk, Ingemar and Tore! You have been very eager to get Lukman s dissertation. As a temporary compensation FX presented the reference to a letter on
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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                                    Keth, Dirk, Ingemar and Tore!

                                    You have been very eager to get Lukman's dissertation. As a
                                    temporary
                                    compensation FX presented the reference to a letter on ANSAXNET in
                                    which we can read that the consequences of Lukman's theory for 50
                                    years "never penetrated to the outside of The University" of
                                    Copenhagen. As a tax-payer I hope there is a very simple explanation
                                    for that.

                                    I have read Lukmans books and also Lars Hemmingsens PhD-dissertation
                                    (By word of mouth, 1996, Center for Folkloristik) elaborating on
                                    Lukman's ideas. According to these theories legends from the
                                    Black
                                    Sea and the Danube regions were told in Northern Germany and
                                    Scandinavia – as example by soldiers, troubadures, tradesmen,
                                    pilgrims or crusaders. Since then these legends were used as
                                    Scandinavian legends and nearly all the first kings in Gesta Danorum
                                    of Saxo and the Sagaes of Snorri should therefore originate from
                                    Herulian, Hunnic and Gothic legends without any connection to the
                                    Danish/Scandinavian history. Accordingly the Danish history of the
                                    Migration Period should be totally unknown. The successors of Lukman
                                    have "proved" this by comparing names, contents and
                                    structures in
                                    Norse and Central European legends.

                                    As far as I can see their theories have three weaknesses:

                                    1. The legends could as well be brought to Scandinavia by a migration
                                    people as the history of a royal family – not of a territory.
                                    This
                                    could explain why the legends had been so well protected in
                                    Scandinavia (It was a problem for Lukman's successors, that
                                    these "foreign" legends were better preserved than local
                                    Scandinavian
                                    stories - being in this case unknown. They tried to explain this
                                    claiming the legends were transferred much later (even around 1200),
                                    but they failed - in my opinion - as some of the kings in their
                                    examples (Roar and Rolf) were called Danes already in Widsith (700AD)
                                    and in Beowulf describing helmets with boar crests later found in
                                    graves in Mercia and Vendel (Sweden) from around 600AD).

                                    2. Similarity in names does not prove – and used alone does not
                                    even
                                    indicate - the persons were identical. They might as well be members
                                    of the same family, kingdom or religious group or not common members
                                    at all. (If you look at the example from ANSAXNET it appear as a
                                    comparison of two identical rows of names giving a high probability.
                                    The row from Dacia isn't a real historical list. It is a mixture
                                    of
                                    kings and viceroys from different nationalities (in some way
                                    connected to Dacia) combined in order to be compared with Cronicon
                                    Lethrense, but the kings of that list (not all being kings in the
                                    version I know) do not all appear in order and position as mentioned
                                    in the above posting. This results in a much lower probability. By
                                    the way one of the most important elements supporting Lukmans theory
                                    is missing in the E-mail - Frode ~ Theodoric, who was never king of
                                    Dacia.)

                                    3. Good narrators use some universal structures in their tellings if
                                    they want people to listen - boring narratives do not survive. The
                                    tools for comparison which I have seen used on these legends in the
                                    dissertations did not separate the legends in a convincing way - in
                                    my opinion - but I am far from being a specialist in folklore.

                                    -----

                                    I am sure Lukman's (and Curt Weibull's) idea about some Norse
                                    and
                                    German legends and kings being originally Eastgermanic is basically
                                    correct, but he/they went too far in their conclusions. Some Norse
                                    legends are really legends about Ermaneric, Attila, Roduulf and
                                    Theodoric, but when a cronicler like Saxo 700 years later combined
                                    the legends in his melting pot (the croniclers connected to the
                                    Danish Court and Church around 1200 had their motives to find a long
                                    and powerful Danish history), some of his kings became a mixture of
                                    Eastgermanic and Danish kings wearing similar names. These
                                    similarities in names were often seen in Germanic tribes - like in
                                    the royal families to day. Therefore the presence of Eastgermanic
                                    elements in Scandinavian legends do not prove that the kings had
                                    nothing to do with Scandinavia (as claimed in ANSAXNET) or that the
                                    legends had no historical value at all. We can't be sure.

                                    Personally I find the Heruls the most obvious possibility explaining
                                    how these legends ended up in Scandinavia. As discussed elsewhere
                                    Procopius told us their kings settled in Scandinavia, and we know
                                    this happened after they had supported or been ruled or subdued by
                                    the above keyfigures. You may find other possibilities - or
                                    Lukman/Lars may theoretically be right in all their claims.

                                    A short description and critique of this kind covering also his
                                    successors will never give a fair impression of Lukman's work,
                                    but
                                    the letter from ANSAXNET should not stand alone. I hope you will get
                                    his book and make your own opinion.

                                    Regards
                                    Troels
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