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The Scandinavian Origin of the Goths and Other Germanic Peoples

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  • bertil
    Maybe we are relating to different things here. In my opinion it was never during the Iron Age the question of nation building , but of ethnicity and peoples.
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 28, 2000
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      Maybe we are relating to different
      things here. In my opinion it was never
      during the Iron Age the question of
      "nation building", but of ethnicity and
      peoples.

      There are a number of indications
      that many of the Germanic peoples
      originated in Scandinavia, although
      it cannot be proven with certainty:

      The Goths: Vaestergoetland, Oester-
      goetland, Gotland.

      The Gepids: See above.

      The Eruli: Denmark

      The Langobardi: Scania, southern Sweden

      The Burgundi: the island of Bornholm
      (formerly named Burgundarholm)

      The Rugi: Rogaland (Norway)

      The Cimbri: Himmerland (Denmark)

      The Vandali: Vendsyssel (Jutland, Denmark)

      During the migration southwards these
      peoples were influenced and through
      intermarriage not only with other Germanic
      peoples but with peoples of the steppes in
      the east changed, both culturally,
      ethnically and linguistically. So when
      reaching southern Europe they were of course
      not the same as when they were leaving the
      original home. Their ranks had probably
      also grown with the addition of others living on
      the continent. But there was of course an
      interchange with Scandinavia. New migrators
      being added and others returning to Scandinavia.

      Concerning interaction of the peoples of
      Scandinavia with the Celts this of course
      took place in the form of trade and cultural
      exchange.

      I am glad we agree on the Scandinavian origin
      of the Goths. If you want to discuss the problem
      of the Scandinavian origin of the other peoples
      we could perhaps do that privately, if you
      are interested, as this is a Gothic list.

      Gothically

      Bertil Haggman

      > In Scandinavia there was simply not
      > the cultural interaction with a 'more
      > advanced' group such as the Celts,
      > which theory deems necessary for the
      > process of identity, culture and 'nation'
      > formation.
    • dirk@smra.co.uk
      I see were the misunderstanding is. Firstly, nationbuilding is certainly not a question during that time, that is why I put nation in hyphen. Secondly, some of
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 28, 2000
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        I see were the misunderstanding is. Firstly, nationbuilding is
        certainly not a question during that time, that is why I put nation
        in
        hyphen. Secondly, some of the tribes you mention will certainly have
        started their migration southwards from Scandinavia (probably not the
        Langobards at least see Bardengau, Bardenga, Bardowiek south of
        Hamburg), this does not mean that the Germanic culture has its origin
        in Scandinavia, but it is more likely that proto-Germans moved to
        Scandinavia (before Gothic and other tribal identities were formed).
        As the concept of the tribe is not static, but dynamic and often
        amorphous it is best to place the origin of these tribes to the
        places
        were they were first attested in historical documents, beyond this
        lies speculation (and unfortunately all too often nationalistic
        fervour). (Like the Goths, the Vandals are assumed to be a group of
        Germanic and Celtic tribes) But agree, we are leaving the confines of
        this page.

        Dirk


        --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, bertil <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
        > Maybe we are relating to different
        > things here. In my opinion it was never
        > during the Iron Age the question of
        > "nation building", but of ethnicity and
        > peoples.
        >
        > There are a number of indications
        > that many of the Germanic peoples
        > originated in Scandinavia, although
        > it cannot be proven with certainty:
        >
        > The Goths: Vaestergoetland, Oester-
        > goetland, Gotland.
        >
        > The Gepids: See above.
        >
        > The Eruli: Denmark
        >
        > The Langobardi: Scania, southern Sweden
        >
        > The Burgundi: the island of Bornholm
        > (formerly named Burgundarholm)
        >
        > The Rugi: Rogaland (Norway)
        >
        > The Cimbri: Himmerland (Denmark)
        >
        > The Vandali: Vendsyssel (Jutland, Denmark)
        >
        > During the migration southwards these
        > peoples were influenced and through
        > intermarriage not only with other Germanic
        > peoples but with peoples of the steppes in
        > the east changed, both culturally,
        > ethnically and linguistically. So when
        > reaching southern Europe they were of course
        > not the same as when they were leaving the
        > original home. Their ranks had probably
        > also grown with the addition of others living on
        > the continent. But there was of course an
        > interchange with Scandinavia. New migrators
        > being added and others returning to Scandinavia.
        >
        > Concerning interaction of the peoples of
        > Scandinavia with the Celts this of course
        > took place in the form of trade and cultural
        > exchange.
        >
        > I am glad we agree on the Scandinavian origin
        > of the Goths. If you want to discuss the problem
        > of the Scandinavian origin of the other peoples
        > we could perhaps do that privately, if you
        > are interested, as this is a Gothic list.
        >
        > Gothically
        >
        > Bertil Haggman
        >
        > > In Scandinavia there was simply not
        > > the cultural interaction with a 'more
        > > advanced' group such as the Celts,
        > > which theory deems necessary for the
        > > process of identity, culture and 'nation'
        > > formation.
      • dirk@smra.co.uk
        That is entirely possible....Do you know from when the earliest archeaological finds that can clearly be linked to a Germanic culture date, this should give
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 29, 2000
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          That is entirely possible....Do you know from when the earliest
          archeaological finds that can clearly be linked to a Germanic culture
          date, this should give some indication about the course of
          events....the sacrificial caves near Osterrode (Harz) have apparently
          recently been dated to at leat 1200 BC and attributed to the
          so-called
          Germanisch Thueringische Unstrutgruppe....



          --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2@f...>
          wrote:
          > From: dirk@s... wrote:-
          > > ... but it is more likely that proto-Germans moved to
          > > Scandinavia (before Gothic and other tribal identities were
          formed). ...
          >
          > Or the speakers of the ancestor of the Common Germanic language did
          so.
          > Likeliest, a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European
          language,
          > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of
          south
          Russia,
          > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class, very
          many
          > centuries BC. Over a few centuries they imposed their language and
          suppressed
          > whatever language the natives spoke before.
          >
          > Those natives would themselves have had to come in from outside, a
          long time
          > before that, when or after the first Homo sapiens came to the area.
          The
          > characteristic features of Nordic peoples would have evolved in the
          area:-
          > I saw an experiment on TV once that showed that blue eyes see
          better in
          > faint light and brown eyes see better in glare.
          > People need Vitamin D to avoid rickets. The body can make its
          own,
          but one
          > stage needs ultraviolet light. Thus the skin had to evolve as pale
          as possible
          > to let enough sun through it despite clouds and clothes and dull
          weather.
          > In hotter sunnier lands further south, such things did not keep the
          sun off
          > the skin so much.
        • Anthony Appleyard
          From: dirk@smra.co.uk wrote:- ... Or the speakers of the ancestor of the Common Germanic language did so. Likeliest, a branch of the speakers of the Common
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 29, 2000
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            From: dirk@... wrote:-
            > ... but it is more likely that proto-Germans moved to
            > Scandinavia (before Gothic and other tribal identities were formed). ...

            Or the speakers of the ancestor of the Common Germanic language did so.
            Likeliest, a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European language,
            spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of south Russia,
            invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class, very many
            centuries BC. Over a few centuries they imposed their language and suppressed
            whatever language the natives spoke before.

            Those natives would themselves have had to come in from outside, a long time
            before that, when or after the first Homo sapiens came to the area. The
            characteristic features of Nordic peoples would have evolved in the area:-
            I saw an experiment on TV once that showed that blue eyes see better in
            faint light and brown eyes see better in glare.
            People need Vitamin D to avoid rickets. The body can make its own, but one
            stage needs ultraviolet light. Thus the skin had to evolve as pale as possible
            to let enough sun through it despite clouds and clothes and dull weather.
            In hotter sunnier lands further south, such things did not keep the sun off
            the skin so much.
          • Axeage
            ... I also believed that by the time the Visigoths arrived and settled in Spain and southern France, and the Ostrogoths in Italy that they were no longer the
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 30, 2000
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              You said:
              > "During the migration southwards these
              > peoples were influenced and through
              > intermarriage not only with other Germanic
              > peoples but with peoples of the steppes in
              > the east changed, both culturally,
              > ethnically and linguistically. So when
              > reaching southern Europe they were of course
              > not the same as when they were leaving the
              > original home. Their ranks had probably
              > also grown with the addition of others living on
              > the continent. But there was of course an
              > interchange with Scandinavia. New migrators
              > being added and others returning to Scandinavia."

              I also believed that by the time the Visigoths arrived and settled in
              Spain and southern France, and the Ostrogoths in Italy that they were
              no longer the same people (racially and ethnically) who crossed the
              Baltic from Scandinavia due to intermarriage with iranians, huns,
              slavs, romans, etc...but so far, all anthropological evidence I have
              seen indicates otherwise. For example, american anthropologist
              Carleton Coon says in his book "The Races of Europe"
              (Chapter VI,section 6 - The Germanic Peoples):

              "Linguistically, the Germanic peoples who invaded other parts of
              Europe from Scandinavia and North Germany have been divided into two
              groups: East Germans and West Germans. The speakers of East Germanic
              included the Goths, Vandals, Gepidae, and Burgundians. The Goths
              claimed to have crossed the Baltic from Sweden (not from the island
              of Gotland) to the mouth of the Vistula. The Vandals and the Gepidae
              presumably had the same origin. From the Vistula, the East Germans
              expanded southward and eastward into the Scythian country, where the
              Gepidae seized control of Hungary, and the Goths finally established
              an important kingdom on the north shore of the Black Sea.
              From here, the history of these tribes is well known. They all had
              important relationships with the Roman Empire, and adopted
              Christianity. The movements of the Goths into Greece, Italy, and
              France do not merit detailed description. The Visigoths pushed
              westward, occupied southern France shortly after 400 A.D., and moved
              down into Spain where they were gradually absorbed into the
              population of the northern provinces. The eastern Goths who fell
              under the rule of the Huns met a similar fate. Of a once numerous and
              mobile Gothic nation no trace remains. The same is true of the
              Gepidae, and of the Vandals, who went from eastern Europe to France,
              Spain, and North Africa, whence they were subsequently deported to
              Byzantium. No doubt, Gothic and Vandal blood flows in the veins of
              some modern Spaniards as well as of the peoples in other countries
              through which they passed. But this eastern branch of the Germans
              failed to make any lasting impression upon the racial map of Europe.
              Although there is not much data concerning the physical type of these
              eastern Germans, there is enough to enable us to come to some
              definite conclusions. A series of Goths from the Chersonese north of
              the Black Sea, dated between 100 B.C. and 100 A.D., includes three
              male and eight female skeletons. All of these are long headed, and
              they belong to a large, powerful Nordic type which reflects their
              Swedish origin, for they are no different from the Swedish Iron Age
              crania which we have already studied.
              A later group of Gepidae dated from the fifth or sixth centuries in
              Hungary shows the persistence of this same type; despite historical
              blending with the Huns, of eight skulls at our disposal, all but
              three fail to show definite traces of mongoloid mixture, and in these
              three the non-Nordic traits are not manifested metrically. One is
              forced to the conclusion from this series, as from that of the Goths
              in the Chersonese, that the East Germanic peoples who took part in
              these wanderings preserved their original racial characteristics so
              long as they retained their political and linguistic identity.
              The same conclusion results when one examines the Visigothic skulls
              from northern Spain which date from the sixth century A.D. Here a
              series combined from several cemeteries shows us exactly the same
              Nordic type, with tall stature and with a high-vaulted skull, a long
              face, and a broad law; in this respect resembling, in a sense, the
              earlier Hallstatt crania, but more particularly those of the western
              Germanic group, especially the Hannover Germans and the Anglo-
              Saxons."
            • dirk@smra.co.uk
              Thinking and reading about your statement below, I find that it is not very likely that a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European language, ...
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 27, 2000
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                Thinking and reading about your statement below, I find that it is not
                very likely that

                "a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European
                language,
                > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of south
                Russia,
                > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class, very
                many
                > centuries BC"

                I read a few papers and I think that the currently accepted wisdom is
                that Proto-Germanic people came to Scandinavia via the Jutland route
                about 700 BC, until than a Finnic/Baltic culture with a Finnic/Baltic
                language occupied the Scandinavian peninsula proper. These people were
                gradually driven to the far north and east by the Germanic settlers.
                Over the next centuries these settlers developed into various tribes
                probably including the Goths, who than around 100 BC left Scandinavia
                to settle at the mounth of the Vistula.

                Dirk



                --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2@f...>
                wrote:
                > From: dirk@s... wrote:-
                > > ... but it is more likely that proto-Germans moved to
                > > Scandinavia (before Gothic and other tribal identities were
                formed). ...
                >
                > Or the speakers of the ancestor of the Common Germanic language did
                so.
                > Likeliest, a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European
                language,
                > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of south
                Russia,
                > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class, very
                many
                > centuries BC. Over a few centuries they imposed their language and
                suppressed
                > whatever language the natives spoke before.
                >
                > Those natives would themselves have had to come in from outside, a
                long time
                > before that, when or after the first Homo sapiens came to the area.
                The
                > characteristic features of Nordic peoples would have evolved in the
                area:-
                > I saw an experiment on TV once that showed that blue eyes see
                better in
                > faint light and brown eyes see better in glare.
                > People need Vitamin D to avoid rickets. The body can make its own,
                but one
                > stage needs ultraviolet light. Thus the skin had to evolve as pale
                as possible
                > to let enough sun through it despite clouds and clothes and dull
                weather.
                > In hotter sunnier lands further south, such things did not keep the
                sun off
                > the skin so much.
              • Bertil Häggman
                Dirk, Really cannot see any difference between the two statements. Gothically Bertil
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 27, 2000
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                  Dirk,

                  Really cannot see any difference between the two statements.

                  Gothically

                  Bertil

                  > Thinking and reading about your statement below, I find that it is not
                  > very likely that
                  >
                  > "a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European
                  > language,
                  > > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of south
                  > Russia,
                  > > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class, very
                  > many
                  > > centuries BC"
                  >
                  > I read a few papers and I think that the currently accepted wisdom is
                  > that Proto-Germanic people came to Scandinavia via the Jutland route
                  > about 700 BC, until than a Finnic/Baltic culture with a Finnic/Baltic
                  > language occupied the Scandinavian peninsula proper. These people were
                  > gradually driven to the far north and east by the Germanic settlers.
                  > Over the next centuries these settlers developed into various tribes
                  > probably including the Goths, who than around 100 BC left Scandinavia
                  > to settle at the mounth of the Vistula.
                  >
                  > Dirk
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2@f...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > From: dirk@s... wrote:-
                  > > > ... but it is more likely that proto-Germans moved to
                  > > > Scandinavia (before Gothic and other tribal identities were
                  > formed). ...
                  > >
                  > > Or the speakers of the ancestor of the Common Germanic language did
                  > so.
                  > > Likeliest, a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European
                  > language,
                  > > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of south
                  > Russia,
                  > > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class, very
                  > many
                  > > centuries BC. Over a few centuries they imposed their language and
                  > suppressed
                  > > whatever language the natives spoke before.
                  > >
                  > > Those natives would themselves have had to come in from outside, a
                  > long time
                  > > before that, when or after the first Homo sapiens came to the area.
                  > The
                  > > characteristic features of Nordic peoples would have evolved in the
                  > area:-
                  > > I saw an experiment on TV once that showed that blue eyes see
                  > better in
                  > > faint light and brown eyes see better in glare.
                  > > People need Vitamin D to avoid rickets. The body can make its own,
                  > but one
                  > > stage needs ultraviolet light. Thus the skin had to evolve as pale
                  > as possible
                  > > to let enough sun through it despite clouds and clothes and dull
                  > weather.
                  > > In hotter sunnier lands further south, such things did not keep the
                  > sun off
                  > > the skin so much.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                  > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                  >
                  >
                • Bertil Häggman
                  Dirk, A detailed review of all sources concerning the Goths, both historical, archaelogical and linguistic, supports a Scandinavian migration. Some late
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 27, 2000
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                    Dirk,

                    A detailed review of all sources concerning
                    the Goths, both historical, archaelogical and
                    linguistic, supports a Scandinavian migration.
                    Some late authors, like Nordgren, nelieve there
                    might have been three waves of migration: one early
                    from Gotland, the main migration around BC and
                    a third migration of the Gepids.

                    An appearance of Germanic immigrants in
                    Scandinavia from 1000 to 700 BC does not,
                    as far as I see, exclude the migrations of Goths
                    from Gotland and Götaland within the timeframe
                    given.

                    The genetic evidence seems interesting. Any
                    sources? Last year a unique experiment started
                    in cooperation between Italian and Jutlandic
                    Danish academic institutions to test Cimbrians
                    in Itay and Himmerland inhabitants on Jutland
                    to compare their DNA. Other such genetic
                    research is of interest.

                    Gothically

                    Bertil



                    The difference is that Anthony Appleyard's statement could imply (or
                    leaves open) the possibility of (Indo/Proto etc-) Germanic settlement
                    of Scandinavia (possibly from the Russian steppe via Karelia and
                    Finland) at a much earlier time. This allows for the possibility of
                    an
                    emergence of 'the Germanic culture' in Scandinavia from where they
                    would have expanded to the continent.

                    My statement precludes such a scenario and supports theories which
                    state that Germanic people expanded to Scandinavia at a much later
                    date (say between 1000-700BC)from what is now central Germany. There
                    seems to be overwhelming archaelogical, linguistic, and apparently
                    also genetic evidence to support this view.

                    PS: It took me some time to answer to Anthony Appelyard's statement,
                    so you may not have been aware of the preceding exchange.

                    Dirk


                    --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                    > Dirk,
                    >
                    > Really cannot see any difference between the two statements.
                    >
                    > Gothically
                    >
                    > Bertil
                    >
                    > > Thinking and reading about your statement below, I find that it
                    is
                    not
                    > > very likely that
                    > >
                    > > "a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European
                    > > language,
                    > > > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of
                    south
                    > > Russia,
                    > > > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class,
                    very
                    > > many
                    > > > centuries BC"
                    > >
                    > > I read a few papers and I think that the currently accepted
                    wisdom
                    is
                    > > that Proto-Germanic people came to Scandinavia via the Jutland
                    route
                    > > about 700 BC, until than a Finnic/Baltic culture with a
                    Finnic/Baltic
                    > > language occupied the Scandinavian peninsula proper. These people
                    were
                    > > gradually driven to the far north and east by the Germanic
                    settlers.
                    > > Over the next centuries these settlers developed into various
                    tribes
                    > > probably including the Goths, who than around 100 BC left
                    Scandinavia
                    > > to settle at the mounth of the Vistula.
                    > >
                    > > Dirk
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2@f...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > From: dirk@s... wrote:-
                    > > > > ... but it is more likely that proto-Germans moved to
                    > > > > Scandinavia (before Gothic and other tribal identities were
                    > > formed). ...
                    > > >
                    > > > Or the speakers of the ancestor of the Common Germanic language
                    did
                    > > so.
                    > > > Likeliest, a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European
                    > > language,
                    > > > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of
                    south
                    > > Russia,
                    > > > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class,
                    very
                    > > many
                    > > > centuries BC. Over a few centuries they imposed their language
                    and
                    > > suppressed
                    > > > whatever language the natives spoke before.
                    > > >
                    > > > Those natives would themselves have had to come in from
                    outside,
                    a
                    > > long time
                    > > > before that, when or after the first Homo sapiens came to the
                    area.
                    > > The
                    > > > characteristic features of Nordic peoples would have evolved in
                    the
                    > > area:-
                    > > > I saw an experiment on TV once that showed that blue eyes see
                    > > better in
                    > > > faint light and brown eyes see better in glare.
                    > > > People need Vitamin D to avoid rickets. The body can make its
                    own,
                    > > but one
                    > > > stage needs ultraviolet light. Thus the skin had to evolve as
                    pale
                    > > as possible
                    > > > to let enough sun through it despite clouds and clothes and
                    dull
                    > > weather.
                    > > > In hotter sunnier lands further south, such things did not keep
                    the
                    > > sun off
                    > > > the skin so much.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                    blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                    > > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                    > >
                    > >



                    You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                    Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                  • dirk@smra.co.uk
                    The difference is that Anthony Appleyard s statement could imply (or leaves open) the possibility of (Indo/Proto etc-) Germanic settlement of Scandinavia
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 27, 2000
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                      The difference is that Anthony Appleyard's statement could imply (or
                      leaves open) the possibility of (Indo/Proto etc-) Germanic settlement
                      of Scandinavia (possibly from the Russian steppe via Karelia and
                      Finland) at a much earlier time. This allows for the possibility of
                      an
                      emergence of 'the Germanic culture' in Scandinavia from where they
                      would have expanded to the continent.

                      My statement precludes such a scenario and supports theories which
                      state that Germanic people expanded to Scandinavia at a much later
                      date (say between 1000-700BC)from what is now central Germany. There
                      seems to be overwhelming archaelogical, linguistic, and apparently
                      also genetic evidence to support this view.

                      PS: It took me some time to answer to Anthony Appelyard's statement,
                      so you may not have been aware of the preceding exchange.

                      Dirk


                      --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                      > Dirk,
                      >
                      > Really cannot see any difference between the two statements.
                      >
                      > Gothically
                      >
                      > Bertil
                      >
                      > > Thinking and reading about your statement below, I find that it
                      is
                      not
                      > > very likely that
                      > >
                      > > "a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European
                      > > language,
                      > > > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of
                      south
                      > > Russia,
                      > > > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class,
                      very
                      > > many
                      > > > centuries BC"
                      > >
                      > > I read a few papers and I think that the currently accepted
                      wisdom
                      is
                      > > that Proto-Germanic people came to Scandinavia via the Jutland
                      route
                      > > about 700 BC, until than a Finnic/Baltic culture with a
                      Finnic/Baltic
                      > > language occupied the Scandinavian peninsula proper. These people
                      were
                      > > gradually driven to the far north and east by the Germanic
                      settlers.
                      > > Over the next centuries these settlers developed into various
                      tribes
                      > > probably including the Goths, who than around 100 BC left
                      Scandinavia
                      > > to settle at the mounth of the Vistula.
                      > >
                      > > Dirk
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2@f...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > From: dirk@s... wrote:-
                      > > > > ... but it is more likely that proto-Germans moved to
                      > > > > Scandinavia (before Gothic and other tribal identities were
                      > > formed). ...
                      > > >
                      > > > Or the speakers of the ancestor of the Common Germanic language
                      did
                      > > so.
                      > > > Likeliest, a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European
                      > > language,
                      > > > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of
                      south
                      > > Russia,
                      > > > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class,
                      very
                      > > many
                      > > > centuries BC. Over a few centuries they imposed their language
                      and
                      > > suppressed
                      > > > whatever language the natives spoke before.
                      > > >
                      > > > Those natives would themselves have had to come in from
                      outside,
                      a
                      > > long time
                      > > > before that, when or after the first Homo sapiens came to the
                      area.
                      > > The
                      > > > characteristic features of Nordic peoples would have evolved in
                      the
                      > > area:-
                      > > > I saw an experiment on TV once that showed that blue eyes see
                      > > better in
                      > > > faint light and brown eyes see better in glare.
                      > > > People need Vitamin D to avoid rickets. The body can make its
                      own,
                      > > but one
                      > > > stage needs ultraviolet light. Thus the skin had to evolve as
                      pale
                      > > as possible
                      > > > to let enough sun through it despite clouds and clothes and
                      dull
                      > > weather.
                      > > > In hotter sunnier lands further south, such things did not keep
                      the
                      > > sun off
                      > > > the skin so much.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                      blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                      > > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                      > >
                      > >
                    • dirk@smra.co.uk
                      Bertil, there is a slight misunderstanding. I do not say that it would preclude the Scandinavian origin of the Goths. In fact, I said explicitly that the Goths
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 27, 2000
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                        Bertil,

                        there is a slight misunderstanding. I do not say that it would
                        preclude the Scandinavian origin of the Goths. In fact, I said
                        explicitly that the Goths most likely left Scandinavia in the first
                        century BC. My statement was targeted at a much earlier time. I am
                        saying that most scholars seem to think that Germanic people came to
                        Scandinavia in 700-1000 BC. There is linguistic, archaelogical and
                        apparently genetic evidence for the that. (See Cavallo Sforza,
                        "History and Geography of human genes" 1994.) This is in tune with
                        theories that place the 'origin' of the Germanic people (if one can
                        truely speak of origin) to what is now Central Germany.

                        Dirk




                        --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                        > Dirk,
                        >
                        > A detailed review of all sources concerning
                        > the Goths, both historical, archaelogical and
                        > linguistic, supports a Scandinavian migration.
                        > Some late authors, like Nordgren, nelieve there
                        > might have been three waves of migration: one early
                        > from Gotland, the main migration around BC and
                        > a third migration of the Gepids.
                        >
                        > An appearance of Germanic immigrants in
                        > Scandinavia from 1000 to 700 BC does not,
                        > as far as I see, exclude the migrations of Goths
                        > from Gotland and Götaland within the timeframe
                        > given.
                        >
                        > The genetic evidence seems interesting. Any
                        > sources? Last year a unique experiment started
                        > in cooperation between Italian and Jutlandic
                        > Danish academic institutions to test Cimbrians
                        > in Itay and Himmerland inhabitants on Jutland
                        > to compare their DNA. Other such genetic
                        > research is of interest.
                        >
                        > Gothically
                        >
                        > Bertil
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The difference is that Anthony Appleyard's statement could imply (or
                        > leaves open) the possibility of (Indo/Proto etc-) Germanic
                        settlement
                        > of Scandinavia (possibly from the Russian steppe via Karelia and
                        > Finland) at a much earlier time. This allows for the possibility of
                        > an
                        > emergence of 'the Germanic culture' in Scandinavia from where they
                        > would have expanded to the continent.
                        >
                        > My statement precludes such a scenario and supports theories which
                        > state that Germanic people expanded to Scandinavia at a much later
                        > date (say between 1000-700BC)from what is now central Germany. There
                        > seems to be overwhelming archaelogical, linguistic, and apparently
                        > also genetic evidence to support this view.
                        >
                        > PS: It took me some time to answer to Anthony Appelyard's statement,
                        > so you may not have been aware of the preceding exchange.
                        >
                        > Dirk
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                        > > Dirk,
                        > >
                        > > Really cannot see any difference between the two statements.
                        > >
                        > > Gothically
                        > >
                        > > Bertil
                        > >
                        > > > Thinking and reading about your statement below, I find that it
                        > is
                        > not
                        > > > very likely that
                        > > >
                        > > > "a branch of the speakers of the Common Indo-European
                        > > > language,
                        > > > > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of
                        > south
                        > > > Russia,
                        > > > > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class,
                        > very
                        > > > many
                        > > > > centuries BC"
                        > > >
                        > > > I read a few papers and I think that the currently accepted
                        > wisdom
                        > is
                        > > > that Proto-Germanic people came to Scandinavia via the Jutland
                        > route
                        > > > about 700 BC, until than a Finnic/Baltic culture with a
                        > Finnic/Baltic
                        > > > language occupied the Scandinavian peninsula proper. These
                        people
                        > were
                        > > > gradually driven to the far north and east by the Germanic
                        > settlers.
                        > > > Over the next centuries these settlers developed into various
                        > tribes
                        > > > probably including the Goths, who than around 100 BC left
                        > Scandinavia
                        > > > to settle at the mounth of the Vistula.
                        > > >
                        > > > Dirk
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2@f...>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > > From: dirk@s... wrote:-
                        > > > > > ... but it is more likely that proto-Germans moved to
                        > > > > > Scandinavia (before Gothic and other tribal identities were
                        > > > formed). ...
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Or the speakers of the ancestor of the Common Germanic
                        language
                        > did
                        > > > so.
                        > > > > Likeliest, a branch of the speakers of the Common
                        Indo-European
                        > > > language,
                        > > > > spreading gradually from their original home on the steppes of
                        > south
                        > > > Russia,
                        > > > > invaded the south of Scandinavia and became its ruling class,
                        > very
                        > > > many
                        > > > > centuries BC. Over a few centuries they imposed their language
                        > and
                        > > > suppressed
                        > > > > whatever language the natives spoke before.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Those natives would themselves have had to come in from
                        > outside,
                        > a
                        > > > long time
                        > > > > before that, when or after the first Homo sapiens came to the
                        > area.
                        > > > The
                        > > > > characteristic features of Nordic peoples would have evolved
                        in
                        > the
                        > > > area:-
                        > > > > I saw an experiment on TV once that showed that blue eyes
                        see
                        > > > better in
                        > > > > faint light and brown eyes see better in glare.
                        > > > > People need Vitamin D to avoid rickets. The body can make
                        its
                        > own,
                        > > > but one
                        > > > > stage needs ultraviolet light. Thus the skin had to evolve as
                        > pale
                        > > > as possible
                        > > > > to let enough sun through it despite clouds and clothes and
                        > dull
                        > > > weather.
                        > > > > In hotter sunnier lands further south, such things did not
                        keep
                        > the
                        > > > sun off
                        > > > > the skin so much.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                        > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                        > > > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                        email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                        > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                      • MCLSSAA2@fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk
                        ... It would likeliest have been via Denmark. Migrating to Scandinavia via Finland overland would have needed going round the north of the Gulf of Bothnia
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 27, 2000
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                          Bertil Häggman <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                          > The difference is that Anthony Appleyard's statement could imply
                          > (or leaves open) the possibility of (Indo/Proto etc-) Germanic
                          > settlement of Scandinavia (possibly from the Russian steppe via
                          > Karelia and Finland) at a much earlier time. ...

                          It would likeliest have been via Denmark. Migrating to Scandinavia via
                          Finland overland would have needed going round the north of the Gulf
                          of Bothnia through much land which was only fit for reindeer herding
                          or forest hunting.

                          Entry via Denmark may have needed less crossing of water than now. At
                          various times in the past since the last Ice Age ended, the Danish
                          Straits were dry and the Baltic Sea was a big freshwater lake that
                          drained to the North Sea by a big river running along the dry bed of
                          the Storebaelt.
                        • Bertil Häggman
                          The two oldest archaelogical finds in Sweden is from around 8000 BC (Segebro outside Malmoe and Ageroed s Bog near the Ring Lake (Ringsjoen) also in southern
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 27, 2000
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                            The two oldest archaelogical finds in Sweden
                            is from around 8000 BC (Segebro outside Malmoe
                            and Ageroed's Bog near the Ring Lake (Ringsjoen)
                            also in southern Sweden in Scania). That was obviously
                            remains from people who followed the melting ice as
                            it retreated northwards.

                            The Stone Age 2500 - 1800 BC is in Sweden charachterized
                            as the War Axe or Boat Axe era. It is a change which
                            seems to indicate that a foreign people conquered
                            the Scandinavian peninsula and introduced a society
                            of class differences and powerful chiefs. One wonders
                            who these conquerers were?

                            The Bronze Age in Sweden, particularly in southern was
                            a cultural period of greatness. Very rich finds of bronze
                            and gold from graves are present.

                            (Joergen Weibull, _Sveriges historia_, Swedish Institute,
                            Stockholm, 1993).

                            I would place the origin of the Germanic peoples in
                            northern Germany, Jutland and the Danish Islands and
                            Scania (Oscar Montelius, "Germanernas hem"). The
                            dating would be around 2000 BC. That coincides well
                            with the War Axe/Boat Axe people.

                            Around 200 BC Cimbrians, Teutones, and Ambrones
                            migrate to the south threatening the Roman empire.

                            Around BC Goths migrate from Goetaland.

                            Gothically

                            Bertil

                            > there is a slight misunderstanding. I do not say that it would
                            > preclude the Scandinavian origin of the Goths. In fact, I said
                            > explicitly that the Goths most likely left Scandinavia in the first
                            > century BC. My statement was targeted at a much earlier time. I am
                            > saying that most scholars seem to think that Germanic people came to
                            > Scandinavia in 700-1000 BC. There is linguistic, archaelogical and
                            > apparently genetic evidence for the that. (See Cavallo Sforza,
                            > "History and Geography of human genes" 1994.) This is in tune with
                            > theories that place the 'origin' of the Germanic people (if one can
                            > truely speak of origin) to what is now Central Germany.

                            Other contributor (anon):

                            > It would likeliest have been via Denmark. Migrating to Scandinavia via
                            > Finland overland would have needed going round the north of the Gulf
                            > of Bothnia through much land which was only fit for reindeer herding
                            > or forest hunting.
                            >
                            > Entry via Denmark may have needed less crossing of water than now. At
                            > various times in the past since the last Ice Age ended, the Danish
                            > Straits were dry and the Baltic Sea was a big freshwater lake that
                            > drained to the North Sea by a big river running along the dry bed of
                            > the Storebaelt.
                          • dirk@smra.co.uk
                            Hi Bertil, That is right, the Battle Axe People are usually equated with Indo-Europeans. As you said you are interested in genetic studies below are a number
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 30, 2000
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                              Hi Bertil,

                              That is right, the Battle Axe People are usually equated with
                              Indo-Europeans. As you said you are interested in genetic studies
                              below are a number of references including some gentic studies.
                              However, all of them point to a Germanic settlement of Scandinavia at
                              a later date (around 1000 BC) on linguistic evidence (i.e. lack of
                              variation in early runic inscription in Denmark and Sweden),
                              archaeological evidence and genetic evidence. For genetic evidence
                              see
                              especially, Lachmann and Menozzi, "Genetische Untersuchung
                              Indo-Europaeischer Landname" Ulm/Tuebingen Konferenz papers May 1997,
                              who argue that a more narrow genetic variation in Scandinavia argues
                              for a comparatively late but fast settlement by Germanic people 'in
                              the first Millenium BC'.
                              But we are leaving the confines of this list and should continue any
                              discussion on e-mail.


                              Beckman, Lars. 1959. A contribution to the physical anthropology and
                              population genetics of Sweden. Lund.


                              Cavalli-Sforza, Luigi Luca, Menozzi, Paolo & Piazza, Alberto. 1994.
                              The history and geography of human genes. Princeton, New Jersey.

                              Elert, Claes-Christian. 1992. "Sydeuropas språkvärld under 3000
                              år:
                              Från mångfald till enhetlighet, och åter till mångfald."
                              La culture
                              dans la langue. Utg. I. Söhrman. Umeå Studies
                              in the Humanities 112. Umeå. S. 13-22.

                              Elert, Claes-Christian. 1993. "Hur länge har de nordiska
                              språken
                              talats i Sverige?". Studier i svensk språkhistoria 3. Utg. Lars
                              Wollin. Skrifter utgivna av Institutionen för nordiska språk
                              vid Uppsala universitet 34. S. 69-75.

                              Eriksson, Aldur. 1995. "Genetic traits in Saamis (Lapps) as compared
                              to surrounding populations." Congressus Octavus Internationalis
                              Fenno-Ugristarum (Eighth International
                              Congress for Fenno-Ugric Studies). Red. Heikki Leskinen. I-II.
                              Jyväskylä. S. 321.

                              Jensen, Ronnie. 1989. "Bronze Age settlement patterns in the
                              Mälaren
                              basin - ecological and social relationships." Bronze Age studies.
                              Stockholm. Statens hist. mus. Studies 6. S.
                              133-150.

                              Larsson, Thomas B. 1986: The Bronze Age metalwork in southern Sweden.
                              Umeå. Dep. of Archeology.

                              Mallory, J. P. 1989. In search of the Indo-Europeans. London.

                              Sajantila, Antti m. fl. 1995. "Genes and languages in Europe: An
                              analysis of mitochondrial lineages". Genomic Research 5. S. 42-52.

                              Sajantila, Antti och Svante Pääbo. 1995. "Language replacement in
                              Scandinavia." Nature. Genetics volume. 11 December 1995. S. 359-360.

                              Sammallahti, Pekka. 1995. "Language and roots." Congressus Octavus
                              Internationalis Fenno-Ugristarum (Eighth International Congress for
                              Fenno-Ugric Studies). Red. Heikki
                              Leskinen. I-II. Jyväskylä. S. 143-53.

                              Wiik, Kalevi. 1995. The Baltic Sea prosodic area revisited.
                              Duplicerad.

                              Zachrisson, Inger. 1993. "A review of archaelogical research on Saami
                              prehistory in Sweden." A review of current Swedish archaelogy I. Utg.
                              Mats Burström & Anders Carlsson.
                              Stockholm. S. 171-81.

                              Best regards

                              Dirk


                              --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                              > The two oldest archaelogical finds in Sweden
                              > is from around 8000 BC (Segebro outside Malmoe
                              > and Ageroed's Bog near the Ring Lake (Ringsjoen)
                              > also in southern Sweden in Scania). That was obviously
                              > remains from people who followed the melting ice as
                              > it retreated northwards.
                              >
                              > The Stone Age 2500 - 1800 BC is in Sweden charachterized
                              > as the War Axe or Boat Axe era. It is a change which
                              > seems to indicate that a foreign people conquered
                              > the Scandinavian peninsula and introduced a society
                              > of class differences and powerful chiefs. One wonders
                              > who these conquerers were?
                              >
                              > The Bronze Age in Sweden, particularly in southern was
                              > a cultural period of greatness. Very rich finds of bronze
                              > and gold from graves are present.
                              >
                              > (Joergen Weibull, _Sveriges historia_, Swedish Institute,
                              > Stockholm, 1993).
                              >
                              > I would place the origin of the Germanic peoples in
                              > northern Germany, Jutland and the Danish Islands and
                              > Scania (Oscar Montelius, "Germanernas hem"). The
                              > dating would be around 2000 BC. That coincides well
                              > with the War Axe/Boat Axe people.
                              >
                              > Around 200 BC Cimbrians, Teutones, and Ambrones
                              > migrate to the south threatening the Roman empire.
                              >
                              > Around BC Goths migrate from Goetaland.
                              >
                              > Gothically
                              >
                              > Bertil
                              >
                              > > there is a slight misunderstanding. I do not say that it would
                              > > preclude the Scandinavian origin of the Goths. In fact, I said
                              > > explicitly that the Goths most likely left Scandinavia in the
                              first
                              > > century BC. My statement was targeted at a much earlier time. I
                              am
                              > > saying that most scholars seem to think that Germanic people came
                              to
                              > > Scandinavia in 700-1000 BC. There is linguistic, archaelogical
                              and
                              > > apparently genetic evidence for the that. (See Cavallo Sforza,
                              > > "History and Geography of human genes" 1994.) This is in tune
                              with
                              > > theories that place the 'origin' of the Germanic people (if one
                              can
                              > > truely speak of origin) to what is now Central Germany.
                              >
                              > Other contributor (anon):
                              >
                              > > It would likeliest have been via Denmark. Migrating to
                              Scandinavia
                              via
                              > > Finland overland would have needed going round the north of the
                              Gulf
                              > > of Bothnia through much land which was only fit for reindeer
                              herding
                              > > or forest hunting.
                              > >
                              > > Entry via Denmark may have needed less crossing of water than
                              now.
                              At
                              > > various times in the past since the last Ice Age ended, the
                              Danish
                              > > Straits were dry and the Baltic Sea was a big freshwater lake
                              that
                              > > drained to the North Sea by a big river running along the dry bed
                              of
                              > > the Storebaelt.
                            • sunburst
                              Hails! I for one, and no doubt others as well, find this
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 30, 2000
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                                Hails!

                                <<But we are leaving the confines of this list and should continue any
                                discussion on e-mail.>>

                                I for one, and no doubt others as well, find this discussion and the sources
                                given interesting, and hope to see it continue on the list.

                                As for the idea of starting a new Germanic history list, I question whether
                                that is actually neccessary. This list seems to always have doubled as
                                germanic history/Gothic language list, which has always made it very
                                appealing and unique, and those interesed in one topic seem to be interested
                                in the other. The people are here, the threads are here, why change it?
                                Perhaps, to allow people to feel that they are not overstepping the
                                boundaries of the list, and allow good discussions to continue further, the
                                administrator may wish to _officially_ broaden those boundaries? Just a
                                suggestion.

                                Albareiks
                              • M. Carver
                                ... Hails! Greetings! When Eric created the list name he said the L stood for language. Indeed ours was the very trifling, extracirricular one of wishing to
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 30, 2000
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                                  > <<But we are leaving the confines of this list and should continue any
                                  > discussion on e-mail.>>'

                                  Hails! Greetings!

                                  When Eric created the list name he said the L stood for language. Indeed
                                  ours was the very trifling, extracirricular one of wishing to fill in the
                                  language and learn to communicate with it, much as the Englisc list was
                                  created for OE. Seeking to expand our group, we found others, like-minded,
                                  who were additionally interested in discussing Gothic history and culture,
                                  to which we had no objections of course--for might not the one shed light on
                                  the other, both illuminating mutually? What is more, were we not gladdened
                                  to see them come to us who grasped the real meaning of "gothic"?

                                  In little time, those of the academic background using Gothic-L as a forum
                                  for scholarly discussion about the Goths (and all facets of their culture)
                                  waxed significantly, and there ran approximately two veins of threads:
                                  linguistic and cultural. In the former I may include inquiries on the gothic
                                  texts as well as general grammatics and the "frivolous" reconstructive
                                  pursuits.

                                  In order to separate and weed out, as it were, the apparent "frivolous"
                                  threads (which to be sure had more in common with the original purposes of
                                  the list) from the list and thereby reduce the burden of uninteresting
                                  messages to the majority, Gutiska was created, though being presently
                                  sustained only by a barest diet of subscription; nevertheless it remains an
                                  outlet for the more "creative" energies of those associated with gotica. But
                                  in all of these things, it was increasingly apparent that the frivolity
                                  could not survive and would not have done to this day had not the
                                  professional zeals of academia and scholars nourished it according to their
                                  varied credenda et agenda.

                                  When asked whether a Germanic History List could be sustained, one must
                                  conclude the positive. When asked whether such a list could concern itself
                                  with the gotica, again a positive answer is given. The name of that list is
                                  so broad across the shoulder that might support all and more. But the name
                                  of Gothic-L is so narrow it can and must hold only the whole of gothic
                                  studies. I cannot argue against the creation of a Germanic History List; I
                                  have no intention of doing such. It is for us to look at a time of
                                  separation and splitting not as the over-ripe fruit of dissension and
                                  alienation, but as indication of growth, success, and most importantly,
                                  individuation.

                                  We remain behind our defining boundaries the more to enjoy the meanings of
                                  the things which lay across those limits within their own boundaries--to see
                                  them for what they are and have always been, and we taste their full flavor.
                                  But just as nations which border each other and share common histories,
                                  though differing somewhat, form pacts of political and commercial nature to
                                  support and strengthen each other, Gothic-L and a Germanic History List
                                  might do the same. I believe perhaps they should, that they would benefit
                                  from it. But until a forum for the studies of germanic history in general be
                                  founded, I cannot willingly chase out my compatriots as exiles without a
                                  home.

                                  ainfalþiba,
                                  Matþaius Kerbeis
                                  Administrator, Gothic-L

                                  sincerely,
                                  Matthew Carver
                                  Administrator, Gothic-L
                                • dirk@smra.co.uk
                                  I believe that is a good idea. So far the moderator has allowed a fairly wide range of topics. As long as the topics remain relevant, interesting and serious
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 30, 2000
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                                    I believe that is a good idea. So far the moderator has allowed a
                                    fairly wide range of topics. As long as the topics remain
                                    relevant, interesting and serious (the discussion of the Markomannic
                                    challenge in Gladiator was perhaps approaching the edge of
                                    seriousness- but why not having some fun), I think also the
                                    participants who are more directly interested in the Gothic language
                                    would benefit from a broader mix of different threads. I believe
                                    making a broader (but well defined) scope 'official' could be a good
                                    idea.

                                    Dirk


                                    --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, "sunburst" <sunburst@j...> wrote:
                                    > Hails!
                                    >
                                    > <<But we are leaving the confines of this list and should continue
                                    any
                                    > discussion on e-mail.>>
                                    >
                                    > I for one, and no doubt others as well, find this discussion and the
                                    sources
                                    > given interesting, and hope to see it continue on the list.
                                    >
                                    > As for the idea of starting a new Germanic history list, I question
                                    whether
                                    > that is actually neccessary. This list seems to always have doubled
                                    as
                                    > germanic history/Gothic language list, which has always made it very
                                    > appealing and unique, and those interesed in one topic seem to be
                                    interested
                                    > in the other. The people are here, the threads are here, why change
                                    it?
                                    > Perhaps, to allow people to feel that they are not overstepping the
                                    > boundaries of the list, and allow good discussions to continue
                                    further, the
                                    > administrator may wish to _officially_ broaden those boundaries?
                                    Just a
                                    > suggestion.
                                    >
                                    > Albareiks
                                  • dirk@smra.co.uk
                                    Hi Bertil, Denmark is strictly speaking not Scandinavia. There can be no doubt that Jutland was settled by Germanic people much earlier, before they spread out
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Oct 31, 2000
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                                      Hi Bertil,

                                      Denmark is strictly speaking not Scandinavia. There can be no doubt
                                      that
                                      Jutland was settled by Germanic people much earlier, before they
                                      spread
                                      out across the sea to the Danish islands and than Sweden. As for
                                      quotes,
                                      there are so many that I don't know were to begin. For a linguistic
                                      approach Cleas Elert said: " The absence of any great dialect split in
                                      the Germanic language spoken in Scandinavia and northern Germany at
                                      the
                                      time of the earliest written sources (ca. 200-500 A.D.) indicates
                                      strongly that a Germanic language has been spoken over such a large
                                      area
                                      for only a short time. The late Bronze Age (ca. 700 B.C.) was a time
                                      of
                                      cultural change { in Scandinavia} when the language(s) spoken earlier
                                      may have been replaced by the Germanic language." Reference op. cit..

                                      Findeisens proposition is well supported by the cited literature. If
                                      Germanic people spreading out from what is now central Germany had
                                      arrived in Jutland by 2000 BC it might have taken them another few
                                      hundered years to feel the need to move further on (population
                                      pressure
                                      argument). In any case this settlement process was likely gradual and
                                      the population balance in Sweden may not have shifted in favour of the
                                      newcomers before around 1000 BC, which does not exclude the
                                      propability
                                      that Germanic settleres had started coming in a few centuries earlier.
                                      There is always a give and take of a couple of hundred years in that.
                                      The important thing is that all the evidence discounts older theories
                                      and propositions which still are in circulation that 'the Germanic
                                      people' originated some 5000 to 4000 years ago in Scandinavia.

                                      Dirk






                                      Bertil Häggman wrote:

                                      > Dirk,
                                      >
                                      > Maybe you should take a look at what German historians
                                      > write about Scandinavia. I am quoting Professor Joerg-
                                      > Peter Findeisen in his recent _Daenemark - Von den Anfaengen
                                      > bis zur Gegenwart_ (1999):
                                      >
                                      > Vor knapp 4000 Jahren wurde die Bauernkultur schwer
                                      > erschuettert. Ein aggressives Reitervolk erreichte auf
                                      > seine rWanderung Mittel- und Nordeuropa: In mehreren
                                      > Wellen kamen immer mehr "Streitaxt-Maenner" ins Land...
                                      > Gleichzeitig setzte sich ein Seefahrervolk an der Kueste
                                      > fest." (p. 21).
                                      >
                                      > I cannot find in this book any evidence of an immigration to
                                      > Scandinavia around 1000 BC. Can you provide any concrete
                                      > quotes that support this theory.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks.
                                      >
                                      > Germanically
                                      >
                                      > Bertil





                                      --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, dirk@s... wrote:
                                      > Hi Bertil,
                                      >
                                      > That is right, the Battle Axe People are usually equated with
                                      > Indo-Europeans. As you said you are interested in genetic studies
                                      > below are a number of references including some gentic studies.
                                      > However, all of them point to a Germanic settlement of Scandinavia
                                      at
                                      > a later date (around 1000 BC) on linguistic evidence (i.e. lack of
                                      > variation in early runic inscription in Denmark and Sweden),
                                      > archaeological evidence and genetic evidence. For genetic evidence
                                      > see
                                      > especially, Lachmann and Menozzi, "Genetische Untersuchung
                                      > Indo-Europaeischer Landname" Ulm/Tuebingen Konferenz papers May
                                      1997,
                                      > who argue that a more narrow genetic variation in Scandinavia argues
                                      > for a comparatively late but fast settlement by Germanic people 'in
                                      > the first Millenium BC'.
                                      > But we are leaving the confines of this list and should continue any
                                      > discussion on e-mail.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Beckman, Lars. 1959. A contribution to the physical anthropology and
                                      > population genetics of Sweden. Lund.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Cavalli-Sforza, Luigi Luca, Menozzi, Paolo & Piazza, Alberto. 1994.
                                      > The history and geography of human genes. Princeton, New Jersey.
                                      >
                                      > Elert, Claes-Christian. 1992. "Sydeuropas språkvärld under 3000
                                      > år:
                                      > Från mångfald till enhetlighet, och åter till mångfald."
                                      > La culture
                                      > dans la langue. Utg. I. Söhrman. Umeå Studies
                                      > in the Humanities 112. Umeå. S. 13-22.
                                      >
                                      > Elert, Claes-Christian. 1993. "Hur länge har de nordiska
                                      > språken
                                      > talats i Sverige?". Studier i svensk språkhistoria 3. Utg. Lars
                                      > Wollin. Skrifter utgivna av Institutionen för nordiska språk
                                      > vid Uppsala universitet 34. S. 69-75.
                                      >
                                      > Eriksson, Aldur. 1995. "Genetic traits in Saamis (Lapps) as compared
                                      > to surrounding populations." Congressus Octavus Internationalis
                                      > Fenno-Ugristarum (Eighth International
                                      > Congress for Fenno-Ugric Studies). Red. Heikki Leskinen. I-II.
                                      > Jyväskylä. S. 321.
                                      >
                                      > Jensen, Ronnie. 1989. "Bronze Age settlement patterns in the
                                      > Mälaren
                                      > basin - ecological and social relationships." Bronze Age studies.
                                      > Stockholm. Statens hist. mus. Studies 6. S.
                                      > 133-150.
                                      >
                                      > Larsson, Thomas B. 1986: The Bronze Age metalwork in southern
                                      Sweden.
                                      > Umeå. Dep. of Archeology.
                                      >
                                      > Mallory, J. P. 1989. In search of the Indo-Europeans. London.
                                      >
                                      > Sajantila, Antti m. fl. 1995. "Genes and languages in Europe: An
                                      > analysis of mitochondrial lineages". Genomic Research 5. S. 42-52.
                                      >
                                      > Sajantila, Antti och Svante Pääbo. 1995. "Language replacement in
                                      > Scandinavia." Nature. Genetics volume. 11 December 1995. S. 359-360.
                                      >
                                      > Sammallahti, Pekka. 1995. "Language and roots." Congressus Octavus
                                      > Internationalis Fenno-Ugristarum (Eighth International Congress for
                                      > Fenno-Ugric Studies). Red. Heikki
                                      > Leskinen. I-II. Jyväskylä. S. 143-53.
                                      >
                                      > Wiik, Kalevi. 1995. The Baltic Sea prosodic area revisited.
                                      > Duplicerad.
                                      >
                                      > Zachrisson, Inger. 1993. "A review of archaelogical research on
                                      Saami
                                      > prehistory in Sweden." A review of current Swedish archaelogy I.
                                      Utg.
                                      > Mats Burström & Anders Carlsson.
                                      > Stockholm. S. 171-81.
                                      >
                                      > Best regards
                                      >
                                      > Dirk
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                                      > > The two oldest archaelogical finds in Sweden
                                      > > is from around 8000 BC (Segebro outside Malmoe
                                      > > and Ageroed's Bog near the Ring Lake (Ringsjoen)
                                      > > also in southern Sweden in Scania). That was obviously
                                      > > remains from people who followed the melting ice as
                                      > > it retreated northwards.
                                      > >
                                      > > The Stone Age 2500 - 1800 BC is in Sweden charachterized
                                      > > as the War Axe or Boat Axe era. It is a change which
                                      > > seems to indicate that a foreign people conquered
                                      > > the Scandinavian peninsula and introduced a society
                                      > > of class differences and powerful chiefs. One wonders
                                      > > who these conquerers were?
                                      > >
                                      > > The Bronze Age in Sweden, particularly in southern was
                                      > > a cultural period of greatness. Very rich finds of bronze
                                      > > and gold from graves are present.
                                      > >
                                      > > (Joergen Weibull, _Sveriges historia_, Swedish Institute,
                                      > > Stockholm, 1993).
                                      > >
                                      > > I would place the origin of the Germanic peoples in
                                      > > northern Germany, Jutland and the Danish Islands and
                                      > > Scania (Oscar Montelius, "Germanernas hem"). The
                                      > > dating would be around 2000 BC. That coincides well
                                      > > with the War Axe/Boat Axe people.
                                      > >
                                      > > Around 200 BC Cimbrians, Teutones, and Ambrones
                                      > > migrate to the south threatening the Roman empire.
                                      > >
                                      > > Around BC Goths migrate from Goetaland.
                                      > >
                                      > > Gothically
                                      > >
                                      > > Bertil
                                      > >
                                      > > > there is a slight misunderstanding. I do not say that it would
                                      > > > preclude the Scandinavian origin of the Goths. In fact, I said
                                      > > > explicitly that the Goths most likely left Scandinavia in the
                                      > first
                                      > > > century BC. My statement was targeted at a much earlier time. I
                                      > am
                                      > > > saying that most scholars seem to think that Germanic people
                                      came
                                      > to
                                      > > > Scandinavia in 700-1000 BC. There is linguistic, archaelogical
                                      > and
                                      > > > apparently genetic evidence for the that. (See Cavallo Sforza,
                                      > > > "History and Geography of human genes" 1994.) This is in tune
                                      > with
                                      > > > theories that place the 'origin' of the Germanic people (if one
                                      > can
                                      > > > truely speak of origin) to what is now Central Germany.
                                      > >
                                      > > Other contributor (anon):
                                      > >
                                      > > > It would likeliest have been via Denmark. Migrating to
                                      > Scandinavia
                                      > via
                                      > > > Finland overland would have needed going round the north of the
                                      > Gulf
                                      > > > of Bothnia through much land which was only fit for reindeer
                                      > herding
                                      > > > or forest hunting.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Entry via Denmark may have needed less crossing of water than
                                      > now.
                                      > At
                                      > > > various times in the past since the last Ice Age ended, the
                                      > Danish
                                      > > > Straits were dry and the Baltic Sea was a big freshwater lake
                                      > that
                                      > > > drained to the North Sea by a big river running along the dry
                                      bed
                                      > of
                                      > > > the Storebaelt.
                                    • keth@online.no
                                      ... Dirk, I feel you fail to differentiate here between Indo European and Germanic here. That Germanic is a relatively young Indo European language ( perhaps
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Oct 31, 2000
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                                        Dirk wrote:

                                        >Hi Bertil,
                                        >
                                        >Denmark is strictly speaking not Scandinavia. There can be no doubt
                                        >that
                                        >Jutland was settled by Germanic people much earlier, before they
                                        >spread
                                        >out across the sea to the Danish islands and than Sweden. As for
                                        >quotes,
                                        >there are so many that I don't know were to begin. For a linguistic
                                        >approach Cleas Elert said: " The absence of any great dialect split in
                                        >the Germanic language spoken in Scandinavia and northern Germany at
                                        >the
                                        >time of the earliest written sources (ca. 200-500 A.D.) indicates
                                        >strongly that a Germanic language has been spoken over such a large
                                        >area
                                        >for only a short time. The late Bronze Age (ca. 700 B.C.) was a time
                                        >of
                                        >cultural change { in Scandinavia} when the language(s) spoken earlier
                                        >may have been replaced by the Germanic language." Reference op. cit..
                                        >
                                        >Findeisens proposition is well supported by the cited literature. If
                                        >Germanic people spreading out from what is now central Germany had
                                        >arrived in Jutland by 2000 BC it might have taken them another few
                                        >hundered years to feel the need to move further on (population
                                        >pressure

                                        Dirk, I feel you fail to differentiate here between Indo European and
                                        Germanic here. That Germanic is a relatively young Indo European
                                        language ( perhaps 700 BC) does not sound unlikely, though it is not
                                        known where its centre of initial development lay (it may have been in
                                        Scandinavia or somewhere in Germany/Poland or somewhere else).

                                        However, quite independent of the question of the origin of Germanic,
                                        I think there are indications that a kind of Indo European language
                                        was spoken in Scandinavia already at the end of the Stone Age, say
                                        around 2000 BC. At the same time it also seems to me that more than
                                        one language may have been spoken there. e.g. something akin to Finish
                                        or Saami.

                                        In Germany the "default" opinion seems to be that Germanic must have
                                        arisen in Germany -- what could be more logical! That also gives an
                                        excuse for looking at Scandinavia as an area that it is legitimate to
                                        colonize\ cf. what was done with Low German, that it was defined
                                        as a dialect og High German.

                                        What about the idea then, that a "new" language needs to arise
                                        in relative isolation? -- It needs a period of incubation.
                                        And what could be more ideal for such, than an island?
                                        Gotland for example ;)




                                        >argument). In any case this settlement process was likely gradual and
                                        >the population balance in Sweden may not have shifted in favour of the
                                        >newcomers before around 1000 BC, which does not exclude the
                                        >propability

                                        Also remember that population replacement is not the only possible
                                        mechanism of language change. In Northern Norway you see, for example,
                                        how many people changed their language without really changing their
                                        identity nor their culture.


                                        >that Germanic settleres had started coming in a few centuries earlier.

                                        So what I mean is that it doesn't have to have been the same scenario
                                        as in North America, where the language change occurred by replacing
                                        the original native Indian population by Germanic settlers.

                                        Best regards
                                        Keth


                                        >There is always a give and take of a couple of hundred years in that.
                                        >The important thing is that all the evidence discounts older theories
                                        >and propositions which still are in circulation that 'the Germanic
                                        >people' originated some 5000 to 4000 years ago in Scandinavia.
                                        >
                                        >Dirk
                                      • dirk@smra.co.uk
                                        Hi Keth, these are very interesting points. You said that a kind of Scandinavian (I suppose you mean Proto-Germanic) language was spoken around 2000 BC in
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                          Hi Keth,
                                          these are very interesting points. You said that 'a kind of
                                          Scandinavian (I suppose you mean Proto-Germanic) language was spoken
                                          around 2000 BC in Sweden. That may well be the case. A Swedish
                                          linguist (Prof. Elert) wrote the following:


                                          "According to models proposed by M. Nuñez and P. Dolukhanov
                                          speakers of a Proto-Uralic language populated the land that was laid
                                          bare along the periglacial line after the Ice Age, from the Rhine and
                                          eastward (eventually also Scandinavia),. See Figure 1. As a result of
                                          conquest or demographic efficiency the Proto-Uralic language and
                                          possibly population were replaced by speakers of a (Proto-) Germanic
                                          language.

                                          Common features in the word prosody of the languages in the Baltic
                                          area have been explained as substrate or contact phenomena (Wiik
                                          1995). As for the Saamis, recent DNA research confirms that
                                          genetically they differ sharply from the other population in
                                          Scandinavia and Finland (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994; Sajantila et al.
                                          1995). The coincidence of genetic distance between the Saami and
                                          Finnish populations and a comparatively close relationship between
                                          their languages leads up to the traditional thought of a language
                                          replacement. This does not contradict (nor support) a later rise of
                                          Saami ethnicity among hunters/gatherers.

                                          On archeological, genetic and linguistic grounds the late Bronze Age
                                          language in Scandinavia could have been a Finnic or Baltic language
                                          (or both). However, from what can be inferred from parallels in
                                          history or ethnolinguistics a more complicated and varied language
                                          situation is the most likely one in subglacial Europe at the end of
                                          the Ice Age. "



                                          Thus Prof. Elert proposes that Finnic or Baltic (or both) as the
                                          late Bronze Age languages in Scandinavia. But he admits that the
                                          picture was more complex. I suppose it is possible that
                                          Proto-Germanic speakers had already appeard as well.


                                          Keth, you also write that Gotland is the ideal place for the
                                          development of the Germanic language. Personally I think that would
                                          be to narrow, and is not really reconcileable with the overall
                                          movement of Proto-Germanic People as I understand it.


                                          Your point that language change does not necessarily mean
                                          population change is of course very valid and the above citation
                                          supports this argument with respect to the Saamis and Finns.

                                          Personally I think that any claim of origin for the Germanic people
                                          is inevitably incorrect. The whole procesess took place dynamically
                                          over time and space and my comment was targeted against claims that
                                          the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia which is just as wrong
                                          as the claim the the Germanic people originated in today's Germany.

                                          Dirk






                                          --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, keth@o... wrote:
                                          > Dirk wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >Hi Bertil,
                                          > >
                                          > >Denmark is strictly speaking not Scandinavia. There can be no doubt
                                          > >that
                                          > >Jutland was settled by Germanic people much earlier, before they
                                          > >spread
                                          > >out across the sea to the Danish islands and than Sweden. As for
                                          > >quotes,
                                          > >there are so many that I don't know were to begin. For a linguistic
                                          > >approach Cleas Elert said: " The absence of any great dialect
                                          split
                                          in
                                          > >the Germanic language spoken in Scandinavia and northern Germany at
                                          > >the
                                          > >time of the earliest written sources (ca. 200-500 A.D.) indicates
                                          > >strongly that a Germanic language has been spoken over such a large
                                          > >area
                                          > >for only a short time. The late Bronze Age (ca. 700 B.C.) was a
                                          time
                                          > >of
                                          > >cultural change { in Scandinavia} when the language(s) spoken
                                          earlier
                                          > >may have been replaced by the Germanic language." Reference op.
                                          cit..
                                          > >
                                          > >Findeisens proposition is well supported by the cited literature.
                                          If
                                          > >Germanic people spreading out from what is now central Germany had
                                          > >arrived in Jutland by 2000 BC it might have taken them another few
                                          > >hundered years to feel the need to move further on (population
                                          > >pressure
                                          >
                                          > Dirk, I feel you fail to differentiate here between Indo European
                                          and
                                          > Germanic here. That Germanic is a relatively young Indo European
                                          > language ( perhaps 700 BC) does not sound unlikely, though it is not
                                          > known where its centre of initial development lay (it may have been
                                          in
                                          > Scandinavia or somewhere in Germany/Poland or somewhere else).
                                          >
                                          > However, quite independent of the question of the origin of
                                          Germanic,
                                          > I think there are indications that a kind of Indo European language
                                          > was spoken in Scandinavia already at the end of the Stone Age, say
                                          > around 2000 BC. At the same time it also seems to me that more than
                                          > one language may have been spoken there. e.g. something akin to
                                          Finish
                                          > or Saami.
                                          >
                                          > In Germany the "default" opinion seems to be that Germanic must have
                                          > arisen in Germany -- what could be more logical! That also gives an
                                          > excuse for looking at Scandinavia as an area that it is legitimate
                                          to
                                          > colonize\ cf. what was done with Low German, that it was defined
                                          > as a dialect og High German.
                                          >
                                          > What about the idea then, that a "new" language needs to arise
                                          > in relative isolation? -- It needs a period of incubation.
                                          > And what could be more ideal for such, than an island?
                                          > Gotland for example ;)
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >argument). In any case this settlement process was likely gradual
                                          and
                                          > >the population balance in Sweden may not have shifted in favour of
                                          the
                                          > >newcomers before around 1000 BC, which does not exclude the
                                          > >propability
                                          >
                                          > Also remember that population replacement is not the only possible
                                          > mechanism of language change. In Northern Norway you see, for
                                          example,
                                          > how many people changed their language without really changing their
                                          > identity nor their culture.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >that Germanic settleres had started coming in a few centuries
                                          earlier.
                                          >
                                          > So what I mean is that it doesn't have to have been the same
                                          scenario
                                          > as in North America, where the language change occurred by replacing
                                          > the original native Indian population by Germanic settlers.
                                          >
                                          > Best regards
                                          > Keth
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >There is always a give and take of a couple of hundred years in
                                          that.
                                          > >The important thing is that all the evidence discounts older
                                          theories
                                          > >and propositions which still are in circulation that 'the Germanic
                                          > >people' originated some 5000 to 4000 years ago in Scandinavia.
                                          > >
                                          > >Dirk
                                        • Anthony Appleyard
                                          ... That depends on whether the Danish Straits were there at the time. As I wrote a bit ago, after the Ice Age ended, there have been times when north Denmark
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                            Dirk wrote:
                                            > Denmark is strictly speaking not Scandinavia. There can be no doubt that
                                            > Jutland was settled by Germanic people much earlier, before they spread
                                            > out across the sea to the Danish islands and than Sweden. ...

                                            That depends on whether the Danish Straits were there at the time. As I wrote
                                            a bit ago, after the Ice Age ended, there have been times when north Denmark
                                            was a bit higher and the Danish islands were continuous land across and the
                                            Baltic Sea was a big freshwater lake (called by geologists the Ancylus Lake)
                                            that overflowed into a big river running along the dry bed of the Storebaelt.

                                            keth@... wrote:-
                                            > What about the idea then, that a "new" language needs to arise in relative
                                            > isolation? -- It needs a period of incubation. And what could be more ideal
                                            > for such, than an island? Gotland for example ;)

                                            My belief is that the Gautar in and near Scandinavia spoke Common Germanic,
                                            and that the characteristic features of Wilfila's Gothic developed while the
                                            Goths were migrating.

                                            There were likely Indo-European speakers in Germany at the time. But, as we
                                            look further back in time, the characteristic identifying features of each
                                            Indo-European language one by one disappear, and we get to a time whem we can
                                            only talk of undifferentiated Indo-European.

                                            One thing might possibly solve this: Did Germanic speakers in Scandinavia pick
                                            up any Finno-Ugrian words from the Lapps? If so, do any of those words also
                                            occur in German? If so, the languages of Germany may have come from
                                            Scandinavia. (How far south in Scandinavia did Lapps spread in the old days?)
                                          • dirk@smra.co.uk
                                            Hi Anthony, very interesting points, but I am at a loss here. I would have thought that Jutland became separated from the Scandinavian peninsula around the
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                              Hi Anthony,

                                              very interesting points, but I am at a loss here. I would have thought
                                              that Jutland became separated from the Scandinavian peninsula around
                                              the same time as Britain became separated from the continent (some 10
                                              to 12000 years ago). But I really don't know for sure.

                                              Your last point is exptremely interesting, but again I don't know
                                              whether the Germanic languages of the Scandinavian peninsula picked up
                                              Finno-Ugric words. Prof. Elert (a Swedish linguist) mentioned
                                              somewhere that the Saami picked up Germanic words mainly in the realm
                                              of agriculture, but I have never heard of Finno-Ugric words in the
                                              German language. I don't think that Germanic tribes like the Vangioni,
                                              Ubier etc who lived in the Mainz-Cologne area (next to the Celts) for
                                              several centuries BC would have got their language from the
                                              Scandinavian peninsula - but I may be wrong.

                                              Perhaps somebody else on the list has more insight?

                                              I would have thought that people like the Suevi Ariovist, or the
                                              Cherusci Arminius or the Markomani Marbod would have spoken a common
                                              Germanic language. Is there any information of whether their languages
                                              had developed separately. Or in short: Did Arminius and Marbod need a
                                              translator?

                                              Dirk




                                              --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2@f...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > Dirk wrote:
                                              > > Denmark is strictly speaking not Scandinavia. There can be no
                                              doubt that
                                              > > Jutland was settled by Germanic people much earlier, before they
                                              spread
                                              > > out across the sea to the Danish islands and than Sweden. ...
                                              >
                                              > That depends on whether the Danish Straits were there at the time.
                                              As I wrote
                                              > a bit ago, after the Ice Age ended, there have been times when north
                                              Denmark
                                              > was a bit higher and the Danish islands were continuous land across
                                              and the
                                              > Baltic Sea was a big freshwater lake (called by geologists the
                                              Ancylus Lake)
                                              > that overflowed into a big river running along the dry bed of the
                                              Storebaelt.
                                              >
                                              > keth@o... wrote:-
                                              > > What about the idea then, that a "new" language needs to arise in
                                              relative
                                              > > isolation? -- It needs a period of incubation. And what could be
                                              more ideal
                                              > > for such, than an island? Gotland for example ;)
                                              >
                                              > My belief is that the Gautar in and near Scandinavia spoke Common
                                              Germanic,
                                              > and that the characteristic features of Wilfila's Gothic developed
                                              while the
                                              > Goths were migrating.
                                              >
                                              > There were likely Indo-European speakers in Germany at the time.
                                              But, as we
                                              > look further back in time, the characteristic identifying features
                                              of each
                                              > Indo-European language one by one disappear, and we get to a time
                                              whem we can
                                              > only talk of undifferentiated Indo-European.
                                              >
                                              > One thing might possibly solve this: Did Germanic speakers in
                                              Scandinavia pick
                                              > up any Finno-Ugrian words from the Lapps? If so, do any of those
                                              words also
                                              > occur in German? If so, the languages of Germany may have come from
                                              > Scandinavia. (How far south in Scandinavia did Lapps spread in the
                                              old days?)
                                            • Tore Gannholm
                                              Hi Dirk, If you read the Golandic history many of your questions will be answered. The old name of the island from where the Goths emigrated is Gutland and the
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                                Hi Dirk,
                                                If you read the Golandic history many of your questions will be answered.
                                                The old name of the island from where the Goths emigrated is Gutland and
                                                the people is called gutar and the language is called gutniska. According
                                                to professor Elias Wessén their language is almost identical to the Gothish
                                                language.

                                                http://gotland.luma.com



                                                Tore

                                                >Hi Anthony,
                                                >
                                                >very interesting points, but I am at a loss here. I would have thought
                                                >that Jutland became separated from the Scandinavian peninsula around
                                                >the same time as Britain became separated from the continent (some 10
                                                >to 12000 years ago). But I really don't know for sure.
                                                >
                                                >Your last point is exptremely interesting, but again I don't know
                                                >whether the Germanic languages of the Scandinavian peninsula picked up
                                                > Finno-Ugric words. Prof. Elert (a Swedish linguist) mentioned
                                                >somewhere that the Saami picked up Germanic words mainly in the realm
                                                >of agriculture, but I have never heard of Finno-Ugric words in the
                                                >German language. I don't think that Germanic tribes like the Vangioni,
                                                > Ubier etc who lived in the Mainz-Cologne area (next to the Celts) for
                                                > several centuries BC would have got their language from the
                                                >Scandinavian peninsula - but I may be wrong.
                                                >
                                                >Perhaps somebody else on the list has more insight?
                                                >
                                                >I would have thought that people like the Suevi Ariovist, or the
                                                >Cherusci Arminius or the Markomani Marbod would have spoken a common
                                                >Germanic language. Is there any information of whether their languages
                                                > had developed separately. Or in short: Did Arminius and Marbod need a
                                                >translator?
                                                >
                                                >Dirk
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >--- In gothic-l@egroups.com, "Anthony Appleyard" <MCLSSAA2@f...>
                                                >wrote:
                                                >> Dirk wrote:
                                                >> > Denmark is strictly speaking not Scandinavia. There can be no
                                                >doubt that
                                                >> > Jutland was settled by Germanic people much earlier, before they
                                                >spread
                                                >> > out across the sea to the Danish islands and than Sweden. ...
                                                >>
                                                >> That depends on whether the Danish Straits were there at the time.
                                                >As I wrote
                                                >> a bit ago, after the Ice Age ended, there have been times when north
                                                >Denmark
                                                >> was a bit higher and the Danish islands were continuous land across
                                                >and the
                                                >> Baltic Sea was a big freshwater lake (called by geologists the
                                                >Ancylus Lake)
                                                >> that overflowed into a big river running along the dry bed of the
                                                >Storebaelt.
                                                >>
                                                >> keth@o... wrote:-
                                                >> > What about the idea then, that a "new" language needs to arise in
                                                >relative
                                                >> > isolation? -- It needs a period of incubation. And what could be
                                                >more ideal
                                                >> > for such, than an island? Gotland for example ;)
                                                >>
                                                >> My belief is that the Gautar in and near Scandinavia spoke Common
                                                >Germanic,
                                                >> and that the characteristic features of Wilfila's Gothic developed
                                                >while the
                                                >> Goths were migrating.
                                                >>
                                                >> There were likely Indo-European speakers in Germany at the time.
                                                >But, as we
                                                >> look further back in time, the characteristic identifying features
                                                >of each
                                                >> Indo-European language one by one disappear, and we get to a time
                                                >whem we can
                                                >> only talk of undifferentiated Indo-European.
                                                >>
                                                >> One thing might possibly solve this: Did Germanic speakers in
                                                >Scandinavia pick
                                                >> up any Finno-Ugrian words from the Lapps? If so, do any of those
                                                >words also
                                                >> occur in German? If so, the languages of Germany may have come from
                                                >> Scandinavia. (How far south in Scandinavia did Lapps spread in the
                                                >old days?)
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                                                >to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                                >Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                                              • MCLSSAA2@fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk
                                                ... I thought that:- c.10000 BC: Here the icecap started to melt, but the whole Baltic area was still deep under ice. The sea was a long way below present
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Nov 1, 2000
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                                                  --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, dirk@s... wrote:
                                                  > very interesting points, but I am at a loss here. I would have
                                                  > thought that Jutland became separated from the Scandinavian
                                                  > peninsula around the same time as Britain became separated from
                                                  > the continent (some 10 to 12000 years ago).
                                                  > But I really don't know for sure.

                                                  I thought that:-
                                                  c.10000 BC: Here the icecap started to melt, but the whole Baltic
                                                  area was still deep under ice. The sea was a long way below present
                                                  level: will someone tell me a best value for how far?
                                                  c.6000 BC: Here the rising sea covered the last land bridge between
                                                  Britain and Europe: it was from East Anglia to the Hook of Holland,
                                                  not across the Straits of Dover.
                                                  c.5000 BC: Here the icecap finished melting, and the sea reached
                                                  about its present level.
                                                  After that the Danish Straits were very shallow and sometimes dry,
                                                  as the land around the Baltic Sea moved slowly up and down as the
                                                  earth's crust there slowly recovered from having been pushed down by
                                                  the weight of the Scandinavian ice cap: geologists call this effect
                                                  "isostasy".
                                                • keth@online.no
                                                  Hello Dirk, ... Yes, I agree that the fazit is, that it is simply not known. I, in my turn react a bit against (some) Germans who seem to think that of
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Nov 3, 2000
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hello Dirk,

                                                    You wrote:

                                                    >Personally I think that any claim of origin for the Germanic people
                                                    >is inevitably incorrect. The whole procesess took place dynamically
                                                    >over time and space and my comment was targeted against claims that
                                                    >the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia which is just as wrong
                                                    >as the claim the the Germanic people originated in today's Germany.

                                                    Yes, I agree that the "fazit" is, that it is simply not known.
                                                    I, in my turn react a bit against (some) Germans who seem to think
                                                    that "of course" the Germanics originitated (somewhere) in Germany,
                                                    and think of the Scandinavians as a kind of German settlers.

                                                    "Gotland" was only chosen as an example - a kind of compromise,
                                                    a kind of "let's meet in the middle" (of the Baltic).
                                                    But it is of course true that it probably is a hospitable place
                                                    that must have been relatively more isolated than the
                                                    Danish islands. I have not been to Gotland, but you say that it
                                                    is "too small". That reminds me of a saying [about the Zurich
                                                    bankers]: "Auch die Gnomen haben klein angefangen>"

                                                    On another account, that is only distantly related to the present
                                                    discussion, I always pay attention when I hear about discoveries
                                                    of very early human remains in SW Scandinavia, and it now seems
                                                    that human beings also lived on the Scandinavian peninsula
                                                    _during_ the Ice Age. (in the coastal areas where everything wasn't
                                                    covered with ice, as was previously thought)

                                                    Sweden however, seems to have been _entirely_ covered with ice.
                                                    That is clear whereever a lot of sand and rubble is found.

                                                    The question then is what people lived off.

                                                    Archaeologists who have tried to popularize their insights,
                                                    have represented the people of those days as a kind of eskimos,
                                                    using harpoons and small boats for hunting and fishing.

                                                    So maybe, if there during periods was _a lot of fish_, there
                                                    may also have been a rapid increase in the population,
                                                    as long as they lived near a place here there was a good food-supply.
                                                    But on the whole, I think the main viewpoint is that people in those
                                                    days were much more mobile than they became thousands of years later
                                                    when agriculture was taken up.

                                                    But when we consider the question of the arising of Proto-Germanic
                                                    as a separate language, we were of course already well into the
                                                    agricultural period. A linear kind of reasoning would then
                                                    imply that it was the agriculturalists (=Indo Europeans)
                                                    who became the first Germans, wherever their centre of
                                                    development was. But was it like that? Perhaps linguistics gives
                                                    some hints here; i.e. word counts could
                                                    indicate what kind of society it can have been. But of
                                                    such I only have a memory of someone saying
                                                    that Germanic contains a large percentage of extraneous words.

                                                    Perhaps one should also consider that a strong iron age culture
                                                    could only arise where there was a good supply of iron ore.
                                                    Of course, Sweden _was_ such a place, with lots of timber
                                                    as well. (timber for producing charcoal to process the iron)

                                                    Keth
                                                  • Tore Gannholm
                                                    ... For what is Gotland too small?? If Gotland claimed back all archaeological finds that has been taken from Gotland and brought to the Historical museum in
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Nov 4, 2000
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      >Hello Dirk,
                                                      >
                                                      >You wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >>Personally I think that any claim of origin for the Germanic people
                                                      >>is inevitably incorrect. The whole procesess took place dynamically
                                                      >>over time and space and my comment was targeted against claims that
                                                      >>the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia which is just as wrong
                                                      >>as the claim the the Germanic people originated in today's Germany.
                                                      >
                                                      >Yes, I agree that the "fazit" is, that it is simply not known.
                                                      >I, in my turn react a bit against (some) Germans who seem to think
                                                      >that "of course" the Germanics originitated (somewhere) in Germany,
                                                      >and think of the Scandinavians as a kind of German settlers.
                                                      >
                                                      >"Gotland" was only chosen as an example - a kind of compromise,
                                                      >a kind of "let's meet in the middle" (of the Baltic).
                                                      >But it is of course true that it probably is a hospitable place
                                                      >that must have been relatively more isolated than the
                                                      >Danish islands. I have not been to Gotland, but you say that it
                                                      >is "too small".


                                                      For what is Gotland too small??

                                                      If Gotland claimed back all archaeological finds that has been taken from
                                                      Gotland and brought to the Historical museum in Stockholm that museum would
                                                      probably have to close down.

                                                      Only on coins from Roman time until early middle ages found in the present
                                                      day Sweden 2/3 of all coins come from Gotland.

                                                      Dirk, if you can read German as I understand I would recommend.
                                                      2000 Jahre Handel und Kultur im Ostseegebiet
                                                      - Gotland, Perle der Ostsee
                                                      ISBN 91-972306-6-9

                                                      Tore



                                                      That reminds me of a saying [about the Zurich
                                                      >bankers]: "Auch die Gnomen haben klein angefangen>"
                                                      >
                                                      >On another account, that is only distantly related to the present
                                                      >discussion, I always pay attention when I hear about discoveries
                                                      >of very early human remains in SW Scandinavia, and it now seems
                                                      >that human beings also lived on the Scandinavian peninsula
                                                      >_during_ the Ice Age. (in the coastal areas where everything wasn't
                                                      >covered with ice, as was previously thought)
                                                      >
                                                      >Sweden however, seems to have been _entirely_ covered with ice.
                                                      >That is clear whereever a lot of sand and rubble is found.
                                                      >
                                                      >The question then is what people lived off.
                                                      >
                                                      >Archaeologists who have tried to popularize their insights,
                                                      >have represented the people of those days as a kind of eskimos,
                                                      >using harpoons and small boats for hunting and fishing.
                                                      >
                                                      >So maybe, if there during periods was _a lot of fish_, there
                                                      >may also have been a rapid increase in the population,
                                                      >as long as they lived near a place here there was a good food-supply.
                                                      >But on the whole, I think the main viewpoint is that people in those
                                                      >days were much more mobile than they became thousands of years later
                                                      >when agriculture was taken up.
                                                      >
                                                      >But when we consider the question of the arising of Proto-Germanic
                                                      >as a separate language, we were of course already well into the
                                                      >agricultural period. A linear kind of reasoning would then
                                                      >imply that it was the agriculturalists (=Indo Europeans)
                                                      >who became the first Germans, wherever their centre of
                                                      >development was. But was it like that? Perhaps linguistics gives
                                                      >some hints here; i.e. word counts could
                                                      >indicate what kind of society it can have been. But of
                                                      >such I only have a memory of someone saying
                                                      >that Germanic contains a large percentage of extraneous words.
                                                      >
                                                      >Perhaps one should also consider that a strong iron age culture
                                                      >could only arise where there was a good supply of iron ore.
                                                      >Of course, Sweden _was_ such a place, with lots of timber
                                                      >as well. (timber for producing charcoal to process the iron)
                                                      >
                                                      >Keth
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                                                      >to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                                      >Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                                                    • dirk@smra.co.uk
                                                      Hi Tore, I did not say or mean that Gotland is too small. I just said that the proposition that the Germanic language originated in Gotland is somewhat too
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Nov 4, 2000
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                                                        Hi Tore,

                                                        I did not say or mean that Gotland is too small. I just said that the
                                                        proposition that the Germanic language originated in Gotland is
                                                        somewhat too narrow (I think I used exactly these words)in my view. I
                                                        can see that you feel strongly about Gotland's place in history and
                                                        many of the things that you wrote were new and interesting to me.
                                                        Especially the info about Roman coin finds on Gotland. If you have
                                                        more information about this, especially about so called Germanic
                                                        imitations of Roman coins from Gotland (they do exist but little is
                                                        known in the literature)I would be very interested to hear about it.

                                                        Dirk
                                                        Thanks for the book reference. I shall have a look.

                                                        --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...> wrote:
                                                        > >Hello Dirk,
                                                        > >
                                                        > >You wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > >>Personally I think that any claim of origin for the Germanic
                                                        people
                                                        > >>is inevitably incorrect. The whole procesess took place
                                                        dynamically
                                                        > >>over time and space and my comment was targeted against claims
                                                        that
                                                        > >>the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia which is just as
                                                        wrong
                                                        > >>as the claim the the Germanic people originated in today's
                                                        Germany.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Yes, I agree that the "fazit" is, that it is simply not known.
                                                        > >I, in my turn react a bit against (some) Germans who seem to think
                                                        > >that "of course" the Germanics originitated (somewhere) in Germany,
                                                        > >and think of the Scandinavians as a kind of German settlers.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >"Gotland" was only chosen as an example - a kind of compromise,
                                                        > >a kind of "let's meet in the middle" (of the Baltic).
                                                        > >But it is of course true that it probably is a hospitable place
                                                        > >that must have been relatively more isolated than the
                                                        > >Danish islands. I have not been to Gotland, but you say that it
                                                        > >is "too small".
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > For what is Gotland too small??
                                                        >
                                                        > If Gotland claimed back all archaeological finds that has been
                                                        taken from
                                                        > Gotland and brought to the Historical museum in Stockholm that
                                                        museum would
                                                        > probably have to close down.
                                                        >
                                                        > Only on coins from Roman time until early middle ages found in the
                                                        present
                                                        > day Sweden 2/3 of all coins come from Gotland.
                                                        >
                                                        > Dirk, if you can read German as I understand I would recommend.
                                                        > 2000 Jahre Handel und Kultur im Ostseegebiet
                                                        > - Gotland, Perle der Ostsee
                                                        > ISBN 91-972306-6-9
                                                        >
                                                        > Tore
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > That reminds me of a saying [about the Zurich
                                                        > >bankers]: "Auch die Gnomen haben klein angefangen>"
                                                        > >
                                                        > >On another account, that is only distantly related to the present
                                                        > >discussion, I always pay attention when I hear about discoveries
                                                        > >of very early human remains in SW Scandinavia, and it now seems
                                                        > >that human beings also lived on the Scandinavian peninsula
                                                        > >_during_ the Ice Age. (in the coastal areas where everything wasn't
                                                        > >covered with ice, as was previously thought)
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Sweden however, seems to have been _entirely_ covered with ice.
                                                        > >That is clear whereever a lot of sand and rubble is found.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >The question then is what people lived off.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Archaeologists who have tried to popularize their insights,
                                                        > >have represented the people of those days as a kind of eskimos,
                                                        > >using harpoons and small boats for hunting and fishing.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >So maybe, if there during periods was _a lot of fish_, there
                                                        > >may also have been a rapid increase in the population,
                                                        > >as long as they lived near a place here there was a good food-
                                                        supply.
                                                        > >But on the whole, I think the main viewpoint is that people in
                                                        those
                                                        > >days were much more mobile than they became thousands of years
                                                        later
                                                        > >when agriculture was taken up.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >But when we consider the question of the arising of Proto-Germanic
                                                        > >as a separate language, we were of course already well into the
                                                        > >agricultural period. A linear kind of reasoning would then
                                                        > >imply that it was the agriculturalists (=Indo Europeans)
                                                        > >who became the first Germans, wherever their centre of
                                                        > >development was. But was it like that? Perhaps linguistics gives
                                                        > >some hints here; i.e. word counts could
                                                        > >indicate what kind of society it can have been. But of
                                                        > >such I only have a memory of someone saying
                                                        > >that Germanic contains a large percentage of extraneous words.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Perhaps one should also consider that a strong iron age culture
                                                        > >could only arise where there was a good supply of iron ore.
                                                        > >Of course, Sweden _was_ such a place, with lots of timber
                                                        > >as well. (timber for producing charcoal to process the iron)
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Keth
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                                                        blank email
                                                        > >to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                                        > >Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                                                      • Tore Gannholm
                                                        ... Dirk, I don t believe that the Germanic language originated in Gotland but that there was a cultural immigration about 1000-800 BC with a new burial
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Nov 5, 2000
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          >Hi Tore,
                                                          >
                                                          >I did not say or mean that Gotland is too small. I just said that the
                                                          >proposition that the Germanic language originated in Gotland is
                                                          >somewhat too narrow (I think I used exactly these words)in my view.


                                                          Dirk, I don't believe that the Germanic language originated in Gotland but
                                                          that there was a cultural immigration about 1000-800 BC with a new burial
                                                          tradition and very possible a new language. It that case it came from the
                                                          east. Gotland had very close connections with the Skyten.
                                                          Skeppssättningar (stone settings in the form of ships, unique for Gotland)
                                                          more than 350 registered remains.

                                                          Typ Gesamtmenge in Schweden davon in Gotland %

                                                          Römische Silbermünzen (Denare) 7500 6500 86,7
                                                          Sassaniden (226 - 651) 120 63 52,5
                                                          Arabische Münzen (kufisch) 67870 49756 73,3
                                                          Byzantinische Münzen 576 491 85,2
                                                          Schwedische Münzen (1013-1050) 781 423 54,2
                                                          Deutsche Münzen (950-1140) 92890 62144 66,9
                                                          Englische Münzen 41525 25785 62,1

                                                          These figures are before the very large Viking treasures found 2 years ago

                                                          There are very few Germanic imitations known in Gotland. I have seen a few.

                                                          Tore




                                                          I can see that you feel strongly about Gotland's place in history and
                                                          >many of the things that you wrote were new and interesting to me.
                                                          >Especially the info about Roman coin finds on Gotland. If you have
                                                          >more information about this, especially about so called Germanic
                                                          >imitations of Roman coins from Gotland (they do exist but little is
                                                          >known in the literature)I would be very interested to hear about it.
                                                          >
                                                          >Dirk
                                                          >Thanks for the book reference. I shall have a look.
                                                          >
                                                          >--- In gothic-l@egroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...> wrote:
                                                          >> >Hello Dirk,
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >You wrote:
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >>Personally I think that any claim of origin for the Germanic
                                                          >people
                                                          >> >>is inevitably incorrect. The whole procesess took place
                                                          >dynamically
                                                          >> >>over time and space and my comment was targeted against claims
                                                          >that
                                                          >> >>the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia which is just as
                                                          >wrong
                                                          >> >>as the claim the the Germanic people originated in today's
                                                          >Germany.
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >Yes, I agree that the "fazit" is, that it is simply not known.
                                                          >> >I, in my turn react a bit against (some) Germans who seem to think
                                                          >> >that "of course" the Germanics originitated (somewhere) in Germany,
                                                          >> >and think of the Scandinavians as a kind of German settlers.
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >"Gotland" was only chosen as an example - a kind of compromise,
                                                          >> >a kind of "let's meet in the middle" (of the Baltic).
                                                          >> >But it is of course true that it probably is a hospitable place
                                                          >> >that must have been relatively more isolated than the
                                                          >> >Danish islands. I have not been to Gotland, but you say that it
                                                          >> >is "too small".
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >> For what is Gotland too small??
                                                          >>
                                                          >> If Gotland claimed back all archaeological finds that has been
                                                          >taken from
                                                          >> Gotland and brought to the Historical museum in Stockholm that
                                                          >museum would
                                                          >> probably have to close down.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Only on coins from Roman time until early middle ages found in the
                                                          >present
                                                          >> day Sweden 2/3 of all coins come from Gotland.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Dirk, if you can read German as I understand I would recommend.
                                                          >> 2000 Jahre Handel und Kultur im Ostseegebiet
                                                          >> - Gotland, Perle der Ostsee
                                                          >> ISBN 91-972306-6-9
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Tore
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >> That reminds me of a saying [about the Zurich
                                                          >> >bankers]: "Auch die Gnomen haben klein angefangen>"
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >On another account, that is only distantly related to the present
                                                          >> >discussion, I always pay attention when I hear about discoveries
                                                          >> >of very early human remains in SW Scandinavia, and it now seems
                                                          >> >that human beings also lived on the Scandinavian peninsula
                                                          >> >_during_ the Ice Age. (in the coastal areas where everything wasn't
                                                          >> >covered with ice, as was previously thought)
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >Sweden however, seems to have been _entirely_ covered with ice.
                                                          >> >That is clear whereever a lot of sand and rubble is found.
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >The question then is what people lived off.
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >Archaeologists who have tried to popularize their insights,
                                                          >> >have represented the people of those days as a kind of eskimos,
                                                          >> >using harpoons and small boats for hunting and fishing.
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >So maybe, if there during periods was _a lot of fish_, there
                                                          >> >may also have been a rapid increase in the population,
                                                          >> >as long as they lived near a place here there was a good food-
                                                          >supply.
                                                          >> >But on the whole, I think the main viewpoint is that people in
                                                          >those
                                                          >> >days were much more mobile than they became thousands of years
                                                          >later
                                                          >> >when agriculture was taken up.
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >But when we consider the question of the arising of Proto-Germanic
                                                          >> >as a separate language, we were of course already well into the
                                                          >> >agricultural period. A linear kind of reasoning would then
                                                          >> >imply that it was the agriculturalists (=Indo Europeans)
                                                          >> >who became the first Germans, wherever their centre of
                                                          >> >development was. But was it like that? Perhaps linguistics gives
                                                          >> >some hints here; i.e. word counts could
                                                          >> >indicate what kind of society it can have been. But of
                                                          >> >such I only have a memory of someone saying
                                                          >> >that Germanic contains a large percentage of extraneous words.
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >Perhaps one should also consider that a strong iron age culture
                                                          >> >could only arise where there was a good supply of iron ore.
                                                          >> >Of course, Sweden _was_ such a place, with lots of timber
                                                          >> >as well. (timber for producing charcoal to process the iron)
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >Keth
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                                                          >blank email
                                                          >> >to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                                          >> >Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                                                          >to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                                          >Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
                                                        • dirk@smra.co.uk
                                                          ... the ... Gotland but ... burial ... from the ... Gotland) ... % ... 86,7 ... 52,5 ... 73,3 ... 85,2 ... 54,2 ... 66,9 ... 62,1 ... years ago ... a few. ...
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Nov 6, 2000
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            --- In gothic-l@egroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...> wrote:
                                                            > >Hi Tore,
                                                            > >
                                                            > >I did not say or mean that Gotland is too small. I just said that
                                                            the
                                                            > >proposition that the Germanic language originated in Gotland is
                                                            > >somewhat too narrow (I think I used exactly these words)in my view.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Dirk, I don't believe that the Germanic language originated in
                                                            Gotland but
                                                            > that there was a cultural immigration about 1000-800 BC with a new
                                                            burial
                                                            > tradition and very possible a new language. It that case it came
                                                            from the
                                                            > east. Gotland had very close connections with the Skyten.
                                                            > Skeppssättningar (stone settings in the form of ships, unique for
                                                            Gotland)
                                                            > more than 350 registered remains.
                                                            >
                                                            > Typ Gesamtmenge in Schweden davon in Gotland
                                                            %
                                                            >
                                                            > Römische Silbermünzen (Denare) 7500 6500
                                                            86,7
                                                            > Sassaniden (226 - 651) 120 63
                                                            52,5
                                                            > Arabische Münzen (kufisch) 67870 49756
                                                            73,3
                                                            > Byzantinische Münzen 576 491
                                                            85,2
                                                            > Schwedische Münzen (1013-1050) 781 423
                                                            54,2
                                                            > Deutsche Münzen (950-1140) 92890 62144
                                                            66,9
                                                            > Englische Münzen 41525 25785
                                                            62,1
                                                            >
                                                            > These figures are before the very large Viking treasures found 2
                                                            years ago
                                                            >
                                                            > There are very few Germanic imitations known in Gotland. I have seen
                                                            a few.
                                                            >
                                                            > Tore
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            Hi Tore,

                                                            these numbers are astonishing and seem to underscore the importance of
                                                            Gotland as commercial and probably power centre.

                                                            Thanks
                                                            Dirk
                                                            >
                                                            > I can see that you feel strongly about Gotland's place in history
                                                            and
                                                            > >many of the things that you wrote were new and interesting to me.
                                                            > >Especially the info about Roman coin finds on Gotland. If you have
                                                            > >more information about this, especially about so called Germanic
                                                            > >imitations of Roman coins from Gotland (they do exist but little is
                                                            > >known in the literature)I would be very interested to hear about
                                                            it.
                                                            > >
                                                            > >Dirk
                                                            > >Thanks for the book reference. I shall have a look.
                                                            > >
                                                            > >--- In gothic-l@egroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
                                                            wrote:
                                                            > >> >Hello Dirk,
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >You wrote:
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >>Personally I think that any claim of origin for the Germanic
                                                            > >people
                                                            > >> >>is inevitably incorrect. The whole procesess took place
                                                            > >dynamically
                                                            > >> >>over time and space and my comment was targeted against claims
                                                            > >that
                                                            > >> >>the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia which is just as
                                                            > >wrong
                                                            > >> >>as the claim the the Germanic people originated in today's
                                                            > >Germany.
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >Yes, I agree that the "fazit" is, that it is simply not known.
                                                            > >> >I, in my turn react a bit against (some) Germans who seem to
                                                            think
                                                            > >> >that "of course" the Germanics originitated (somewhere) in
                                                            Germany,
                                                            > >> >and think of the Scandinavians as a kind of German settlers.
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >"Gotland" was only chosen as an example - a kind of compromise,
                                                            > >> >a kind of "let's meet in the middle" (of the Baltic).
                                                            > >> >But it is of course true that it probably is a hospitable place
                                                            > >> >that must have been relatively more isolated than the
                                                            > >> >Danish islands. I have not been to Gotland, but you say that it
                                                            > >> >is "too small".
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >> For what is Gotland too small??
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >> If Gotland claimed back all archaeological finds that has been
                                                            > >taken from
                                                            > >> Gotland and brought to the Historical museum in Stockholm that
                                                            > >museum would
                                                            > >> probably have to close down.
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >> Only on coins from Roman time until early middle ages found in
                                                            the
                                                            > >present
                                                            > >> day Sweden 2/3 of all coins come from Gotland.
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >> Dirk, if you can read German as I understand I would recommend.
                                                            > >> 2000 Jahre Handel und Kultur im Ostseegebiet
                                                            > >> - Gotland, Perle der Ostsee
                                                            > >> ISBN 91-972306-6-9
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >> Tore
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >> That reminds me of a saying [about the Zurich
                                                            > >> >bankers]: "Auch die Gnomen haben klein angefangen>"
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >On another account, that is only distantly related to the
                                                            present
                                                            > >> >discussion, I always pay attention when I hear about discoveries
                                                            > >> >of very early human remains in SW Scandinavia, and it now seems
                                                            > >> >that human beings also lived on the Scandinavian peninsula
                                                            > >> >_during_ the Ice Age. (in the coastal areas where everything
                                                            wasn't
                                                            > >> >covered with ice, as was previously thought)
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >Sweden however, seems to have been _entirely_ covered with ice.
                                                            > >> >That is clear whereever a lot of sand and rubble is found.
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >The question then is what people lived off.
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >Archaeologists who have tried to popularize their insights,
                                                            > >> >have represented the people of those days as a kind of eskimos,
                                                            > >> >using harpoons and small boats for hunting and fishing.
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >So maybe, if there during periods was _a lot of fish_, there
                                                            > >> >may also have been a rapid increase in the population,
                                                            > >> >as long as they lived near a place here there was a good food-
                                                            > >supply.
                                                            > >> >But on the whole, I think the main viewpoint is that people in
                                                            > >those
                                                            > >> >days were much more mobile than they became thousands of years
                                                            > >later
                                                            > >> >when agriculture was taken up.
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >But when we consider the question of the arising of
                                                            Proto-Germanic
                                                            > >> >as a separate language, we were of course already well into the
                                                            > >> >agricultural period. A linear kind of reasoning would then
                                                            > >> >imply that it was the agriculturalists (=Indo Europeans)
                                                            > >> >who became the first Germans, wherever their centre of
                                                            > >> >development was. But was it like that? Perhaps linguistics gives
                                                            > >> >some hints here; i.e. word counts could
                                                            > >> >indicate what kind of society it can have been. But of
                                                            > >> >such I only have a memory of someone saying
                                                            > >> >that Germanic contains a large percentage of extraneous words.
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >Perhaps one should also consider that a strong iron age culture
                                                            > >> >could only arise where there was a good supply of iron ore.
                                                            > >> >Of course, Sweden _was_ such a place, with lots of timber
                                                            > >> >as well. (timber for producing charcoal to process the iron)
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >Keth
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >
                                                            > >> >
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                                                            > >
                                                            > >
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