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Re: [gothic-l] Gothic music...no, not that kind

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  • sunburst
    Hails! I have come across only a painfully small amount of information concerning music of the Goths. But we can deduce some information from what exists.
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 18, 2000
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      Hails!

      I have come across only a painfully small amount of information concerning
      music of the Goths. But we can deduce some information from what exists.
      Jordanes writes:

      "Thereupon those priests of the Goths that are called the Holy Men suddenly
      opened
      the gates of Odessus and came forth to meet them. They bore harps and were
      clad in
      snowy robes, and chanted in suppliant strains to the gods of their fathers
      that they
      might be propitious and repel the Macedonians. When the Macedonians saw them
      coming with such confidence to meet them, they were astonished and, so to
      speak,
      the armed were terrified by the unarmed. Straightway they broke the line
      they had
      formed for battle and not only refrained from destroying the city, but even
      gave back
      those whom they had captured outside by right of war. Then they made a truce
      and
      returned to their own country."

      Though how much this means to one will no doubt depend on whether one
      identifies the Goths with the Getae. Jordanes also writes:

      "In earliest times they sang of the deeds of their ancestors in strains of
      song
      accompanied by the cithara; chanting of Eterpamara, Hanala, Fritigern,
      Vidigoia and
      others whose fame among them is great; such heroes as admiring antiquity
      scarce
      proclaims its own to be."

      I think we are on firmer ground here, as known Gothic heroes are mentioned.
      The cithara is a wooden lyre (OE hearpe), meaning that Jordanes is likely
      refering to a Gothic form of Germanic lyre/harp, no doubt similar to the one
      found in the Sutton Hoo grave in England, as well as a number of others.

      Jordanes indicates here that the Goths had a poetic/historical tradtion that
      we know was common to other Germanic peoples. This is substantiated by the
      existence of the very material which makes up "the migration myth" in the
      beginning of the Getica, which is obviously remnants of an old Gothic oral
      tradition.

      Also, since in the Germanic world, histories and legends of great heroes
      were passed on in song form, the fact that so many important Gothic
      personalites such as Weyland and Ermanric and Gaut survived in the Edda and
      in A-S poetry like Belwoulf, Widsith, Waldere and Deor, also indicates the
      Goths had an oral tradiditon. After all, the Norse and the English had to
      have learned these stories from somewhere, and song was the medium.

      Being a Germanic people with a poetic tradition then, it is very likely that
      the Goths made use of Germanic Alliterate Verse or some variation of it, to
      formulate their words. These poetic forms show a great continuity over a
      very long period of time. It is possible the form preserved with the
      Anglo-Saxons was also used by the Goths, and it is also possible that the
      Old Norse forms were used (or perhaps originating with?) the Goths. It is
      equally possible that the Goths used a form that is now lost to us.

      Currently I'm still trying to dig myself out from under a backlog of work,
      but producing and recording my reconstruction of Gothic music is high on the
      priority list.

      Albareiks
    • Axeage
      Many thanks Albareiks for the info!! ... ...Are the Geats mentioned in Beowulf actually the Goths?? Carl,
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 18, 2000
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        Many thanks Albareiks for the info!!

        >>Also, since in the Germanic world, histories and legends of great
        >>heroes were passed on in song form, the fact that so many important
        >>Gothic personalites such as Weyland and Ermanric and Gaut survived
        >>in the Edda and in A-S poetry like Belwoulf, Widsith, Waldere and
        >>Deor, also indicates the Goths had an oral tradiditon. After all,
        >>the Norse and the English had to have learned these stories from
        >>somewhere, and song was the medium.

        ...Are the "Geats" mentioned in Beowulf actually the Goths??


        Carl,
      • Manuel Gutierrez Algaba
        ... This is an old indoeuropean tradition. Bard and poets celts were a high level class in their society. ... While following a Pakistani-Indian argument in
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 18, 2000
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          On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, sunburst wrote:
          >
          > "Thereupon those priests of the Goths that are called the Holy Men suddenly
          > opened
          > the gates of Odessus and came forth to meet them. They bore harps and were
          > clad in
          > snowy robes, and chanted in suppliant strains to the gods of their fathers
          > that they
          > might be propitious and repel the Macedonians.

          This is an old indoeuropean tradition. Bard and poets celts were
          a high level class in their society.

          >
          > Though how much this means to one will no doubt depend on whether one
          > identifies the Goths with the Getae.

          While following a Pakistani-Indian argument in Soc.culture.usa
          I reached to:

          The Scythians inhabiting Central Asia at the time of
          Herodotus (5th century B.C.) consisted of 4 main branches
          known as the MassaGatae, Sacae, Alani, and Sarmatians,
          sharing a common language, ethnicity and culture. Ancient
          Greek (e.g. Herodotus, Pliny, Plotemy, Arrian) and Persian
          sources (Darius's historians) from the 5th century place the
          MassaGatea as the most southerly group in the Central Asian
          steppe. The earliest Scythians who entered the northern
          regions of South Asia were from this group. Historians
          derive "Jat" fom "Gatae", "Ahir" from "Avar", "Saka" from
          "Scythii", "Gujjar" from "Khazar", "Thakur" from
          "Tukharian", "Saurashtra" from "Saura Matii" or
          "Sarmatians", "Sessodia" (a Rajput clan) from "Sassanian",
          "Madra" from "Medes", "Trigartta" from "Tyri Getae" and
          "Sulika" from "Seleucids". "Massa" means "grand" or "big" in
          old Iranian - the language of the Scythians.

          For me it's clear that Goths, Iranian and India invaders are
          the same people.


          While reading Larousse encyclopedia yesterday, I reached to
          "visigothic lithurgy" in the V century. Perhaps, you can find
          some recordings of it. The "roman lithurgy" (no music, and austerity
          was introduced in X century).

          Regards/Saludos
          Manolo
          www.ctv.es/USERS/irmina /TeEncontreX.html /texpython.htm
          /pyttex.htm /cruo/cruolinux.htm ICQ:77697936 (sirve el ICQ para algo?)

          Fidelity, n.: A virtue peculiar to those who are about to be betrayed.
        • Rudy A Carrera
          Keep me informed of this music being worked on. I d love to hear some samples if possible! Rudy Carrera Falçata-Galia http://come.to/falcatagalia Masked
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 18, 2000
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            Keep me informed of this music being worked on. I'd love to hear some
            samples if possible!

            Rudy Carrera
            Falçata-Galia
            http://come.to/falcatagalia
            Masked Superstar
            http://members.tripod.com/masked_superstar2000



            -----Original Message-----
            From: sunburst [mailto:sunburst@...]
            Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 9:05 AM
            To: gothic-l@egroups.com
            Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Gothic music...no, not that kind


            Hails!

            I have come across only a painfully small amount of information concerning
            music of the Goths. But we can deduce some information from what exists.
            Jordanes writes:

            "Thereupon those priests of the Goths that are called the Holy Men suddenly
            opened
            the gates of Odessus and came forth to meet them. They bore harps and were
            clad in
            snowy robes, and chanted in suppliant strains to the gods of their fathers
            that they
            might be propitious and repel the Macedonians. When the Macedonians saw them
            coming with such confidence to meet them, they were astonished and, so to
            speak,
            the armed were terrified by the unarmed. Straightway they broke the line
            they had
            formed for battle and not only refrained from destroying the city, but even
            gave back
            those whom they had captured outside by right of war. Then they made a truce
            and
            returned to their own country."

            Though how much this means to one will no doubt depend on whether one
            identifies the Goths with the Getae. Jordanes also writes:

            "In earliest times they sang of the deeds of their ancestors in strains of
            song
            accompanied by the cithara; chanting of Eterpamara, Hanala, Fritigern,
            Vidigoia and
            others whose fame among them is great; such heroes as admiring antiquity
            scarce
            proclaims its own to be."

            I think we are on firmer ground here, as known Gothic heroes are mentioned.
            The cithara is a wooden lyre (OE hearpe), meaning that Jordanes is likely
            refering to a Gothic form of Germanic lyre/harp, no doubt similar to the one
            found in the Sutton Hoo grave in England, as well as a number of others.

            Jordanes indicates here that the Goths had a poetic/historical tradtion that
            we know was common to other Germanic peoples. This is substantiated by the
            existence of the very material which makes up "the migration myth" in the
            beginning of the Getica, which is obviously remnants of an old Gothic oral
            tradition.

            Also, since in the Germanic world, histories and legends of great heroes
            were passed on in song form, the fact that so many important Gothic
            personalites such as Weyland and Ermanric and Gaut survived in the Edda and
            in A-S poetry like Belwoulf, Widsith, Waldere and Deor, also indicates the
            Goths had an oral tradiditon. After all, the Norse and the English had to
            have learned these stories from somewhere, and song was the medium.

            Being a Germanic people with a poetic tradition then, it is very likely that
            the Goths made use of Germanic Alliterate Verse or some variation of it, to
            formulate their words. These poetic forms show a great continuity over a
            very long period of time. It is possible the form preserved with the
            Anglo-Saxons was also used by the Goths, and it is also possible that the
            Old Norse forms were used (or perhaps originating with?) the Goths. It is
            equally possible that the Goths used a form that is now lost to us.

            Currently I'm still trying to dig myself out from under a backlog of work,
            but producing and recording my reconstruction of Gothic music is high on the
            priority list.

            Albareiks
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