Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Introduction of myself.

Expand Messages
  • Axeage
    HELLO AGAIN! ... THE IBERIANS WERE NOT SEMITIC. SEMITIC RELATES TO THE ARABIC AND HEBREW PEOPLE, THEIR CULTURE, AND LANGUAGES. IBERIAN IS BASICALLY THE
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 17, 2000
      HELLO AGAIN!


      In gothic-l@egroups.com, Manuel Gutierrez Algaba <irmina@c...> wrote:

      > Iberians? are they semitic? are they north africans? old
      >europeans? Are basques iberians ?

      THE IBERIANS WERE NOT SEMITIC. SEMITIC RELATES TO THE ARABIC AND
      HEBREW PEOPLE, THEIR CULTURE, AND LANGUAGES. "IBERIAN" IS BASICALLY
      THE COLLECTIVE TERM USED TO DESCRIBE VARIOUS MEDITERRANIC PRE-INDO
      EUROPEAN INVADERS WHO BEGAN TO SPREAD ACROSS MUCH OF WESTERN EUROPE
      DURING THE MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC PERIODS. OBVIOUSLY, THEIR
      PRESENCE WAS STRONGEST IN THE IBERIAN PENINSULA - BUT THEY ALSO
      SETTLED IN LARGE NUMBERS IN AQUITANIA (GASCONY), SOUTHERN ENGLAND,
      WALES, THE WESTERN COASTS OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND, AND EVEN THE
      WESTERN COASTS OF NORWAY...
      I HAVE NO CLUE AS TO WETHER OR NOT THE BASQUES ARE IBERIANS OR NOT.
      LIKE I SAID - THE TERM "IBERIAN" IS USED RATHER LOOSELY TO DESCRIBE
      MORE THAN ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO VARIED IN LANGUAGE AND EVEN
      PHYSICAL APPEARANCE.

      >> I'd say that most Spaniards are basically a mixture of Iberians,
      >> Celts, Romans, and Germanics.

      > Yes, but to what extent? I think it's basically unmeasurable. I
      > wouldn't measure even the semitic/indoeuropean/african variables.

      AGAIN - IT MAY DEPEND ON WHAT REGION OF SPAIN A PERSON IS
      FROM,BECAUSE OF ALL THE DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS (CASTILIANS,
      GALICIANS, CATALANONIANS, BASQUES, ETC.) FOR EXAMPLE: MANY CELTS,
      PLUS THE SUEBIES SETTLED IN GALICIA - WHERE THERE WERE LESS ROMANS
      THAN IN ANDALUSIA, FOR EXAMPLE. LIGHT COLORED HAIR AND EYES ARE MORE
      COMMON IN GALICIA THAN ANDALUSIA AREN'T THEY?? SO MAYBE GALICIANS
      HAVE MORE CELTIC AND GERMANIC BLOOD THAN ANDALUSIANS?

      >> Hmmm, this is a tough one. I too have heard that names ending
      >>with "ez" are of gothic origin. Surnames ending with "ez" mean "son
      >>of"

      >Well, it's the "is" ending of indoeuropean.

      SORRY, BUT I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEANT IN THE ABOVE SENTENCE.

      > Gonzalo comes from Gundinsalvo.

      REALLY? I READ IN A GENEOLOGY MESSAGE BOARD THAT THE ORIGINAL NAME
      WAS "KINSOLVING", WHICH LATER EVOLVED TO "CONSOLVO", AND FINALLY TO
      "GONZALO". ANYWAYS - IS "GUNDINSALVO" GOTHIC? IS DEFINITELY LOOKS
      LIKE IT COULD BE.

      > Vandals quickly passed to Africa.

      TRUE, BUT NOT BEFORE HAVING MANY KIDS WITH HISPANIC WIVES. THE
      VANDALS ARE ANOTHER TRIBE THAT ALSO HAVE AN UNFAIRLY BAD REPUTATION.
      THEY DID TRY TO FINALLY SETTLE DOWN IN ANDALUSIA WITH THEIR NEW
      FAMILIES, BUT THE VISIGOTHS KCIKED THEM OUT. IRONIC ISIN'T IT?

      >> This equals to atleast 360,000 Germanics in a country who's
      >>population ranged somewhere between 4-6 million - this is a pretty
      >>significant number if you ask me.

      > It's 5-10 % at most.

      5-10% IS SIGNIFICANT IF YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. THE FRANKS IN GAUL
      WERE OUTNUMBERED 1/20, BUT IT IS STILL CALLED "FRANCE" AND THE PEOPLE
      STILL THINK OF THEMSELVES AS "FRENCH".

      >> If 5,000 Vikings is enough to name an entire
      >> region of France "Normandy" how can hundreds of thousands of
      >>Germanics living in Hispania be dismissed as a minor element?

      > Because Normandy was an _empty_ place. And, they were not 5000.

      NORMANDY WAS BY NO MEANS AN EMPTY PLACE. IT ALREADY HAD A SIGNIFICANT
      GALLO-ROMAN AND FRANKISH POPULATION. HAD IT BEEN EMPTY - THE VIKINGS
      WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO PLUNDER.


      SALUDOS!,

      <img src="http://www.legends.dm.net/art/cid-sm3.jpg">
    • Manuel Gutierrez Algaba
      ... I ve heard that Iberians might be related to Phoenicians and other semitic cultures. I think experts don t know exactly what they were. The iberian
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 18, 2000
        On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Axeage wrote:
        > > Iberians? are they semitic? are they north africans? old
        > >europeans? Are basques iberians ?
        >
        > THE IBERIANS WERE NOT SEMITIC. SEMITIC RELATES TO THE ARABIC AND
        > HEBREW PEOPLE, THEIR CULTURE, AND LANGUAGES.

        I've heard that Iberians might be related to Phoenicians and other
        semitic cultures. I think experts don't know exactly what they were.
        The iberian language is known, at least, how it's spelt and how
        it sounds , nor meanings, nor grammar.

        > DURING THE MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC PERIODS. OBVIOUSLY, THEIR
        > PRESENCE WAS STRONGEST IN THE IBERIAN PENINSULA - BUT THEY ALSO
        > SETTLED IN LARGE NUMBERS IN AQUITANIA (GASCONY), SOUTHERN ENGLAND,
        > WALES, THE WESTERN COASTS OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND, AND EVEN THE
        > WESTERN COASTS OF NORWAY...

        Incredible! Iberians in Norway, first news of it.

        > PLUS THE SUEBIES SETTLED IN GALICIA - WHERE THERE WERE LESS ROMANS
        > THAN IN ANDALUSIA, FOR EXAMPLE. LIGHT COLORED HAIR AND EYES ARE MORE
        > COMMON IN GALICIA THAN ANDALUSIA AREN'T THEY?? SO MAYBE GALICIANS
        > HAVE MORE CELTIC AND GERMANIC BLOOD THAN ANDALUSIANS?

        It happens that many Andalusian towns are settlements of Galicians
        (Axarquia) during XV century onwards. There's even French (La
        Luisiana ) or German (La Carolina) in XVIII century. I've heard
        that people in Asturias (close to Galicia) there's lot of blond
        people. But, again, we're mixed.

        >
        > >Well, it's the "is" ending of indoeuropean.
        >
        Lactis, lactis --> milk.
        Joe's horse --> the apostrophe is to replace the "i".
        -is is the desinence of property ( the genitive).

        > > Gonzalo comes from Gundinsalvo.
        >
        > REALLY? I READ IN A GENEOLOGY MESSAGE BOARD THAT THE ORIGINAL NAME
        > WAS "KINSOLVING",

        Correct me if not, but the -ing ending is something _very_
        English, not Germanic nor indoeuropean. I think Gothics have no
        -ing ending words _at all_.

        > WHICH LATER EVOLVED TO "CONSOLVO", AND FINALLY TO

        There're phonetic rules, and the step "i-->o" is much harder
        than "u-->o". Perhaps, kundinsolvus --> kinsolvis

        > "GONZALO". ANYWAYS - IS "GUNDINSALVO" GOTHIC? IS DEFINITELY LOOKS

        Having a look to other Gothic king names :
        Chindasvinto, Rencesvinto, Wamba, Gundemaro, Leovigildo, Sisebuto

        it seems that "usually" they're composed of two words of two
        syllabs , or one word of two syllabs. "kinsolving" or
        "chinsolvingo"... I don't know.


        >
        > > Vandals quickly passed to Africa.
        >
        > TRUE, BUT NOT BEFORE HAVING MANY KIDS WITH HISPANIC WIVES

        They stayed very few years... I think the only thing Vandals
        left us were:
        - the sustantive: "vandals attacking downtown"
        - the name Al-Vandalus (the vandals ) --> Andalusia

        > THE
        > VANDALS ARE ANOTHER TRIBE THAT ALSO HAVE AN UNFAIRLY BAD REPUTATION.

        Yes, they only robbed, raped and kill... Byzantinus killed them
        in North Africa.

        > THEY DID TRY TO FINALLY SETTLE DOWN IN ANDALUSIA WITH THEIR NEW
        > FAMILIES, BUT THE VISIGOTHS KCIKED THEM OUT. IRONIC ISIN'T IT?

        Why ironic? That was their work.

        >
        > NORMANDY WAS BY NO MEANS AN EMPTY PLACE. IT ALREADY HAD A SIGNIFICANT
        > GALLO-ROMAN AND FRANKISH POPULATION. HAD IT BEEN EMPTY - THE VIKINGS
        > WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO PLUNDER.

        They plunder other zones. Normandy was (is) a insane zone of
        swamps and forest, cold and wet, certainly not the best part of
        France.

        >
        > SALUDOS!,
        >
        > <img src="http://www.legends.dm.net/art/cid-sm3.jpg">
        >

        I run "pine". :)

        Regards/Saludos
        Manolo
        www.ctv.es/USERS/irmina /TeEncontreX.html /texpython.htm
        /pyttex.htm /cruo/cruolinux.htm ICQ:77697936 (sirve el ICQ para algo?)

        Fidelity, n.: A virtue peculiar to those who are about to be betrayed.
      • Axeage
        THIS IS THE LAST POST I WILL WRITE CONCERNING THIS ISSUE, IT IS GETTING TOO FAR OFF THE TOPIC OF THIS MESSAGE FORUM... ... ...THIS IS TAKEN FROM RENOWNED
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 18, 2000
          THIS IS THE LAST POST I WILL WRITE CONCERNING THIS ISSUE, IT IS
          GETTING TOO FAR OFF THE TOPIC OF THIS MESSAGE FORUM...

          In gothic-l@egroups.com, Manuel Gutierrez Algaba <irmina@c...> wrote:

          >> DURING THE MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC PERIODS. OBVIOUSLY, THEIR
          >> PRESENCE WAS STRONGEST IN THE IBERIAN PENINSULA - BUT THEY ALSO
          >> SETTLED IN LARGE NUMBERS IN AQUITANIA (GASCONY), SOUTHERN ENGLAND,
          >>WALES, THE WESTERN COASTS OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND, AND EVEN THE
          >>WESTERN COASTS OF NORWAY...

          > Incredible! Iberians in Norway, first news of it.

          ...THIS IS TAKEN FROM RENOWNED ANTHROPOLOGIST CARLETON COON'S BOOK
          "THE RACES OF EUROPE" CHAPTER XI, SECTION 15 'THE IBERIAN PENINSULA':

          "...During the third millennium B.C., food-producing peoples entered
          Spain from North Africa with swine, sheep, and goats, and with
          barley, emmer, and other plants. The physical type of these invaders
          is well known to us, not only through skeletal remains, but also by
          means of our study of the living peoples of North Africa. Some of
          these invaders remained in Spain and Portugal, where they became the
          basic populations of these countries; others passed northward over
          the Pyrenees into eastern France and Switzerland, while still others
          passed northward as far as Germany, and into the British Isles.

          Toward the beginning of the second millennium B.C., if not earlier,
          these agricultural colonists were reënforced by a people of much
          higher culture, the megalith-building tall Mediterraneans, who came
          by sea, and many of whom went on from Spain as far as the British
          Isles and Scandinavia. Their settlements in Spain were located mostly
          upon the eastern seaboard, and on the northern Atlantic coast,
          particularly in the region of the Bay of Biscay. They are followed by
          other peoples of a general Mediterranean type, but coming from Asia
          Minor, as their exaggerated nasal form indicates. These new invaders
          brought the knowledge of metal with them from the east, and were the
          first of the prospectors to visit this metal-rich peninsula. They in
          turn were followed by round-headed compatriots with the same nasal
          peculiarities, who introduced the Dinaric racial type to western
          Europe... In post-Roman times Germanic invaders, the Goths and
          Vandals, brought a second Nordic infusion to the peninsula..."

          ...IT ALL REALLY DEPENDS ON WHAT IS AN "IBERIAN" IN YOUR VIEW. FOR
          SOME, THE IBERIANS WERE ONLY THE PEOPLE WHO SETTLED ALONG THE EBRO
          RIVER. OTHERS THINK THAT THEY SETTLED ALONG ALL OF THE EASTERN COAST,
          WHILE OTHERS THINK THAT "IBERIAN" MEANT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT SETTLED
          THE IBERIAN PENINSULA BEFORE THE FIRST INDO-EUROPEAN INVASIONS,
          INCLUDING THOSE WHO LIVED ALONG THE NORTHERN COASTS(THE ONES OF WHICH
          SOME REACHED LANDS FARTHER UP NORTH). IF YOU ARE ONE OF THESE - THEN
          YES, YOU CAN SAY THAT "IBERIANS" REACHED AS FAR AS NORWAY...

          >But, again, we're mixed.

          HERE IS MORE FROM COON'S BOOK. SAME CHAPTER...

          "Despite the complex political history of Spain, the living
          population is basically and almost wholly Mediterranean... more than
          one Mediterranean strain is obviously involved. The head form is
          almost everywhere mesocephalic;not even in Andalusia does a Moorish
          or Arab degree of dolichocephaly prevail.

          Two widely observed racial characters serve to differentiate the
          Spaniards from most of the living inhabitants of Arabia and North
          Africa: hair color and nasal profile. In Spain, as a whole, some 29
          per cent of the male population has black hair, some 68 per cent dark
          brown, while traces of blondism are visible in 17 per cent. In most
          of North Africa and Arabia, the black hair is commoner than the dark
          brown. The nasal profiles of some 120,000 Spaniards are convex in 15
          per cent of cases, straight in 72 per cent, and concave in 13 per
          cent. In Arabia and North Africa east of Morocco, the commonest
          profile form is usually convex, and coneaves are very rare. The
          prevalence of these two features - dark brown hair and a straight
          nasal profile, indicates that the bulk of the Spanish population is
          derived from the earlier Mediterranean In-vasions of Mesolithic and
          Neolithic date.

          ...Another useful series is one of 420 adult males from Andalusia,
          representing the most brunet population in Spain, and the one which
          supposedly contains the most Arab and Berber blood.
          Sixty per cent have dark brown hair, 30 per cent black hair. The
          remaining 10 per cent show some evidence of blondism or of rufosity.
          Only one man out of 420 was truly blond. The hair is straight in half
          the series, wavy in a third, and curly in a sixth. Sixty per cent of
          Andalusians have pure brown eyes, of which the majority are dark
          brown, although light brown and mixed-brown irises occur. Mixed-light
          eyes comprise 30 per cent of the series, with a prevalence of
          greenish-brown shades, while 10 per cent of the whole sample
          possesses bluish-gray eyes, on the gray rather than blue side. A
          ratio of 40 per cent of light or incipiently light eyes is higher
          than one expects to find among racially pure Mediterraneans, and
          indicates the infusion of Nordic blood, from both North European and
          Berber sources. Probably if the rest of Spain were studied for eye
          color in the same way, higher ratios of eye blondism would appear
          elsewhere, since most of the green-brown eyes in this sample are
          predominantly dark...


          The racial character of the richer, city-dwelling Moors of Andalusia.
          before the time of their expulsion, may be suggested by a study of
          the almost wholly unmixed descendants of these émigrés in
          Morocco. In
          the city of Sheshawen the old, aristocratic families are descended
          from the former aristocrats of Granada, and have lived endogamously
          since 1492. A little Ruffian blood has crept in, but aside from that
          the She-sbawen families remain an island of Andalusian Moors on
          Moroccan soil. A small, homogeneous sample of these people shows a
          much closer relationship with Spain than with Morocco. They are a
          little longer-headed (194.5 mm.), a little more dolichocephalic (C.
          I. = 76.5) and a little longer-faced (123 mm.) than the Christian
          Andalusians; the bigonial diameter of 103 mm., although wide for
          Spain as a whole, is of Andalusian size. The Sheshawen Moors have
          predominantly dark brown hair and dark brown eyes, with brunet-white
          skin color. In facial morphology, they are fully Andalusian. The
          implication is that the Moors in Spain took more from the population
          of the peninsula, in a racial sense, than they gave. Our earlier
          conclusion that the Andalusians are Mediterraneans of largely
          Neolithic derivation is supported by this unexpected evidence."

          ...SPANIARDS ARE NOT AS MIXED OR SEMITIC AS PEOPLE BELIEVE, BUT YOU
          SEEM TO BE AS CERTAIN THAT THEY(WE) ARE AS MUCH AS I AM THAT THEY(WE)
          ARE NOT. BUT IF YOU INSIST ON IT, FINE...

          > Lactis, lactis --> milk.
          > Joe's horse --> the apostrophe is to replace the "i".
          > -is is the desinence of property ( the genitive).

          OK, I GET IT NOW.

          >> THE VANDALS ARE ANOTHER TRIBE THAT ALSO HAVE AN UNFAIRLY BAD
          REPUTATION.

          > Yes, they only robbed, raped and kill... Byzantinus killed them
          > in North Africa.

          ...WOMEN CAN GET PREGNANT FROM BEING RAPED.

          >> THEY DID TRY TO FINALLY SETTLE DOWN IN ANDALUSIA WITH THEIR NEW
          >> FAMILIES, BUT THE VISIGOTHS KCIKED THEM OUT. IRONIC ISIN'T IT?

          > Why ironic? That was their work.

          ...IRONIC BECAUSE THE VANDALS WERE IN A SIMILAR POSITION TO THE
          GOTHS. THEY WERE LOOKING FOR A PLACE WHERE THEY COULD FINALLY SETTLE
          DOWN, BUT IN THE ROMAN'S EYES - THEY WERE NOTHING BUT PESTS TO GET
          RID OFF. THE ROMANS WERE NOT TOO FOND OF NEITHER THE GOTHS NOR THE
          VANDALS, SO THEY USED ONE AGAINST THE OTHER, FIGUIRING THAT IT WOULD
          BE NO BIG LOSS IF THEY KILLED EACH OTHER.

          CARL,
        • Manuel Gutierrez Algaba
          ... Ok, I m Mediterranean. Take it easy. With some drops of Gothic blood and vocabulary. Very useful post. And mainly it s true, in fact, I had heard something
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 18, 2000
            On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, Axeage wrote:
            >
            > ...SPANIARDS ARE NOT AS MIXED OR SEMITIC AS PEOPLE BELIEVE, BUT YOU
            > SEEM TO BE AS CERTAIN THAT THEY(WE) ARE AS MUCH AS I AM THAT THEY(WE)
            > ARE NOT. BUT IF YOU INSIST ON IT, FINE...

            Ok, I'm Mediterranean. Take it easy. With some drops of Gothic
            blood and vocabulary. Very useful post. And mainly it's true, in
            fact, I had heard something like that but I had almost forgot it.
            And yes, I'm dark brown haired ( a bit blond when 2-3 years old)
            and brown eyes.

            About the noses... Many french people has long noses and convex, like
            arabs.
            In fact, I think Germanic people tend to have long noses.

            Ok, to retake the topic:
            do you know that "ganar" (to win) and "guardar" ( to guard) are
            from gothic?

            wana --> ambition

            guante --> gauntlet

            Sometimes, I doubt if the word comes from Frankish or from Gothic.

            And about surnames:
            Gotor, Ordoñez.

            Is there that book ?

            About Ostrogoth, yes they had strong relationships with Visigoths,
            even migrations, mainly when Visigoths still rule Tolosa kingdom.

            And, I read in the Enclopedia that Visigoths were in the west side
            of Dnieper river and Ostrogoths in the east.

            I've reread a bit of "Poema de Mio Cid" (btw, Cid comes from arab
            El-sidi-> the master) looking after gothic constructions/words.

            guisar (modern ) --> cook, prepare something
            yantar ? --> eat
            robar (well, this is fully modern ) --> to rob
            zaga ? (in football, defense line) --> rearguard
            lidiar ? (appliable to bullfighting ) --> fight
            vasallo --> servant
            galardon (modern too)--> prize , gif, I think that it comes from gualardon
            barragan ? --> guy
            guarnicion ? (modern too) --> garrison, troops in charge of something
            guarnecer

            Regards/Saludos
            Manolo
            www.ctv.es/USERS/irmina /TeEncontreX.html /texpython.htm
            /pyttex.htm /cruo/cruolinux.htm ICQ:77697936 (sirve el ICQ para algo?)

            Consultant, n.: An ordinary man a long way from home.
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.