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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Introduction of myself.

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  • Manuel Gutierrez Algaba
    ... Well, Visigothics were quite civilized Germanic people, hundreds of years more civilized than Saxons. The proof of it is their artwork: - Jewelry .
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 16, 2000
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      On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Axeage wrote:
      >
      > The Visigoths were indeed an very important part of Spanish history.
      > I personally think that people don't give them enough credit, since
      > most Spaniards still see the Goths as nothing more than fur-clad, axe-
      > wielding barbarians - which as everyone here probably knows, is
      > totally false.

      Well, Visigothics were quite "civilized" Germanic people, hundreds
      of years more civilized than Saxons. The proof of it is their
      artwork:
      - Jewelry . Crowns for Saints.
      - Small traces of architecture. Some visigothics columns were
      reused for the Mosque of Cordoba ( for example)

      And that they had in mind the idea of "a state". Most countries
      in Europe claim to be the oldest one. Undoubtfully Rome created
      an empire of cities depending from them. But, Rome were mainly
      the combination of Law+Legions. I think there were no idea of
      "nationalism" in the "germanic" sense of it. Of course, romans
      regarded themselves as superior. But "romans" from Londinium
      (for example) or "romans" from "Emerita Augusta" didn't have the
      same feelings than people from Manchester and people from Birmighan.
      And yes, Visigothics considered Hispania a personal property.
      Hispania was theirs and therefore, Franks and any other germanic
      tribe was enemy. Thinking this way, they created the first "modern"
      state of Europe. Other tribes fight for territory (which could
      be split (in the case of Franks) ) or migrate. But visigothics
      never split Hispania, and never migrate (till the end), they
      imprinted some kind of unity, that was a model for the future
      (of Spain and Europe).


      > The truth is that that it was the Visigoths who gave
      > birth to Spain as a nation by uniting the various regions and ethnic
      > groups.

      This was a two step work:
      - Romans erode small wars between all the groups and stablish
      a common law , and an internal peace.
      - Visigothics supply the idea of "Us". First for themselves, but
      somehow that idea extended to the whole of the population, specially
      from X century onwards.

      > It was the Visigoths who led the reconquest, and It was the
      > Visigothic code of hononor which became the spanish ideal of
      > chivalry.

      One difference between "French Chivalry songs and romances"
      and "Spanish Chivalry songs" is that French tend to be French ( :) )
      and lie and exagerate things (deliberately ) to unbelivable points
      and Spanish Chivalry stories whose highest point is "El cantar
      del Mio Cid" are very realistic. I think this is a gift from
      Visigothics : to be frank, to be humble if necessary but always
      telling the truth and being realistic and of course be brave.
      This idea ,I think, is very "germanic", very simple (like germanus
      were) and I think is theirs. Probably it's the only "germanic" idea
      in Spanish character. Don Quixote is probably an essay about gothic
      ideas (???).

      >
      > Since when does having an interest in your ancestry and country's
      > past qualify you as a nazi??? About those groups of people you've
      > mentioned - it really depends what part of Spain you come from

      I come from South, but lots of people migrate from north, so I have
      blood of almost every place (basque included).

      > (Ex:the Basques have none of these, while the Andalusians have the
      > most Berber blood in all of Spain)

      This is not true. In fact, Vitoria in Basque Country was a city
      founded by Visigothics ( Victoriaco , the city of Victory) due to
      a victory over basques. Old Basques were enclosed in a very tiny
      region of Spain, and little is left of them. Besides, basques were
      the people who resettle christian land. Castilla in fact is
      neighbouring to Basques. We are really mixed.

      > The Germanic element is definetely
      > an important one - much more so than the Arabic, Jewish, and Greek:
      >
      > 1.Latins/Romans: Roman settlers did come in large numbers, but they
      > tended to settle in eastern and southern colonies such as Cadiz,
      > Seville, Tarragona, Merida, and Malaga.

      I picture it this way:
      - A pure Roman descendent living in Italica (Seville) in
      715 A.D. fleeds north escaping from arabs.
      - A pure Roman descendent living in Italica in 1230 fleeds south
      escaping from Christian.

      How many migrations? diseases in cities? migrations from city
      to countryside? resettlements from Africa, Northern Spain?
      It's very complex.

      >
      > 2.Arabs: Arabs were never of any real significance, you must be
      > talking about the Berbers (Moors). The majority of the Berbers were
      > kicked out in the 15th century with the fall of Granada. Many were
      > allowed to stay if they converted to Catholicism - but in 1609, king
      > Felipe had them expelled anyway. This does not mean that many mixed
      > Catholic Berber/hispanic children were not born though. This was
      > common enough - especially in Andalusia.

      Well, in Valencia (easth) there were important colonies and in
      Aragon there were a lot. Truly, masses of Moors were sent back
      to Africa. But, in fact, many muslims were of Roman/Iberian/visigothic
      origin and they were sent to Africa too. Most of 5 million in (8
      century)
      people under arab goberment stay in their land, and most converted
      to Islam, just to survive. And, from 1200 to 1500 lots of mixing
      and convertions happened in South Spain. So, berber blood is here
      too. And the influence of arab vocabulary in Spanish can be
      resumed saying that 6000 common Spanish words are arabs.

      >
      > 3.Jews: The Jews were similar to the Romans - as they came in large
      > numbers, but usually stuck to the major towns and cities such as
      > Barcelona, Seville, and so on. They basically met the same fate as
      > the Berbers after the fall of Granada.

      There were lots of conversions, some surnames like :
      - Gil
      are known for being used for conversors.

      Ok, masses of jews were sent to Portugal/north europe/Africa....
      But, undoubtfully some of them converted... and that "some" can
      be "many".

      > Just like the Berbers, the
      > Jews that were not immidiately kicked out were allowed to stay if
      > they converted to Catholicism, but they were constantly harassed by
      > the Inquisition


      >
      > 4.Greeks: The Greeks are the least important of this group - as they
      > were too few in numbers, and did not come with any intentions of
      > settling the land, aside from a few trading posts along the
      > mediterranean. Greek ancestry is very unlikely.

      You're wrong. They were not few, truly they founded cities in
      the coasts, but they founded 100+ . Besides they collaborated
      massively with Romans, so their cities grew a lot and in fact,
      occupied some land of native iberians during Pax Romana.

      > ...by the way - you totally forgot about the Iberian Celts!!

      Celtiberians . Well, the interesting mix of Celts and Iberian.
      Living in the center of Spain. Well, Numantia and some other
      heroic wars probably left celtiberian population to a testimonial
      role in Spanish gene.
      Iberians? are they semitic? are they north africans
      ?
      old europeans? And celts , yes they live/lived in Galicia.
      Are basques iberians ?

      >
      > I'd say that most Spaniards are basically a mixture of Iberians,
      > Celts, Romans, and Germanics.

      Yes, but to what extent? I think it's basically unmeasurable. I
      wouldn't measure even the semitic/indoeuropean/african variables.

      >Although many Andalusians and southern
      > Spaniards may have some moorish blood.

      This is not true, simply because thousands of people from north
      founded towns in the south.

      >
      > You said: "And I have a question for you, I've heard that "Gutierrez"
      > is gothic and it means "the man who leads the army". In Sanskrit
      > Goptri (-->Gupta) (probably related to it) means "the man who leads
      > the army",too. So, does it have that meaning?"
      >
      > Hmmm, this is a tough one. I too have heard that names ending with
      > "ez" are of gothic origin. Surnames ending with "ez" mean "son of",

      Well, it's the "is" ending of indoeuropean.

      > but I have no clue as to wether "ez" is gothic for "son". Gutierrez
      > Gonzalo", "Gonzalo" is the hispanic version of "Kinsolving".

      Gonzalo comes from Gundinsalvo.

      >
      > Actually, it is believed that it was closer to 200,000. Add to this
      > number an additional 80,000 Suevies and another 80,000 Vandals.

      Vandals quickly passed to Africa. And Suevis, yes, they live
      in Galicia. Galicia is probably the most "germanic/celtic" part of
      Spain.


      > This
      > equals to atleast 360,000 Germanics in a country who's population
      > ranged somewhere between 4-6 million - this is a pretty significant
      > number if you ask me.

      It's 5-10 % at most.

      > If 5,000 Vikings is enough to name an entire
      > region of France "Normandy" how can hundreds of thousands of Germanics
      > living in Hispania be dismissed as a minor element?

      Because Normandy was an _empty_ place. And, they were not 5000.

      > Why not a spanish
      > "Scandza"?
      > Like I said, most Spaniards do not give enough credit to the Goths.

      We give credit to them ( if you can supersede nowadays subnationalism
      feelings ).

      > It is true that that by the 8th century the Goths could no longer be
      > considered ethnically gothic.

      I think they were very ethnically gothic.

      > Some Germanic tribes such as the
      > Franks, the Saxons, the Angles, etc. travelled only a few hundred
      > miles to their new settlements in northen France, Belgium, and
      > England. These tribes could easily take their entire families with
      > them and therefore successfully preserve their ethnic identity for
      > much longer, but the germanic tribes that settled in Hispania
      > (Visigoths, Suevies, Vandals) were made up almost entirely of male
      > adventurers who had travelled hundreds of thousands of miles and
      > could not take their families with them. This resulted in most of
      > them taking up hispanic wives and therefore dissapearing as a
      > distinct ethnic group faster than the germanic tribes further up
      > north.

      No, they move with their families, and obviously they were:
      180,000 gothic males
      180,000 gothic females
      200,000 horses and donkeys (many, now that I think about it).

      Besides, Visigothics were a "federated" friend people of Rome, and
      their movements inside the empire were not considered harmful. In
      fact, they move to Spain to "protect" it from other germanic
      tribes.

      Regards/Saludos
      Manolo
      www.ctv.es/USERS/irmina /TeEncontreX.html /texpython.htm
      /pyttex.htm /cruo/cruolinux.htm ICQ:77697936 (sirve el ICQ para algo?)

      QOTD: Money isn't everything, but at least it keeps the kids in touch.
    • Axeage
      HELLO AGAIN! ... THE IBERIANS WERE NOT SEMITIC. SEMITIC RELATES TO THE ARABIC AND HEBREW PEOPLE, THEIR CULTURE, AND LANGUAGES. IBERIAN IS BASICALLY THE
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 17, 2000
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        HELLO AGAIN!


        In gothic-l@egroups.com, Manuel Gutierrez Algaba <irmina@c...> wrote:

        > Iberians? are they semitic? are they north africans? old
        >europeans? Are basques iberians ?

        THE IBERIANS WERE NOT SEMITIC. SEMITIC RELATES TO THE ARABIC AND
        HEBREW PEOPLE, THEIR CULTURE, AND LANGUAGES. "IBERIAN" IS BASICALLY
        THE COLLECTIVE TERM USED TO DESCRIBE VARIOUS MEDITERRANIC PRE-INDO
        EUROPEAN INVADERS WHO BEGAN TO SPREAD ACROSS MUCH OF WESTERN EUROPE
        DURING THE MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC PERIODS. OBVIOUSLY, THEIR
        PRESENCE WAS STRONGEST IN THE IBERIAN PENINSULA - BUT THEY ALSO
        SETTLED IN LARGE NUMBERS IN AQUITANIA (GASCONY), SOUTHERN ENGLAND,
        WALES, THE WESTERN COASTS OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND, AND EVEN THE
        WESTERN COASTS OF NORWAY...
        I HAVE NO CLUE AS TO WETHER OR NOT THE BASQUES ARE IBERIANS OR NOT.
        LIKE I SAID - THE TERM "IBERIAN" IS USED RATHER LOOSELY TO DESCRIBE
        MORE THAN ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO VARIED IN LANGUAGE AND EVEN
        PHYSICAL APPEARANCE.

        >> I'd say that most Spaniards are basically a mixture of Iberians,
        >> Celts, Romans, and Germanics.

        > Yes, but to what extent? I think it's basically unmeasurable. I
        > wouldn't measure even the semitic/indoeuropean/african variables.

        AGAIN - IT MAY DEPEND ON WHAT REGION OF SPAIN A PERSON IS
        FROM,BECAUSE OF ALL THE DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS (CASTILIANS,
        GALICIANS, CATALANONIANS, BASQUES, ETC.) FOR EXAMPLE: MANY CELTS,
        PLUS THE SUEBIES SETTLED IN GALICIA - WHERE THERE WERE LESS ROMANS
        THAN IN ANDALUSIA, FOR EXAMPLE. LIGHT COLORED HAIR AND EYES ARE MORE
        COMMON IN GALICIA THAN ANDALUSIA AREN'T THEY?? SO MAYBE GALICIANS
        HAVE MORE CELTIC AND GERMANIC BLOOD THAN ANDALUSIANS?

        >> Hmmm, this is a tough one. I too have heard that names ending
        >>with "ez" are of gothic origin. Surnames ending with "ez" mean "son
        >>of"

        >Well, it's the "is" ending of indoeuropean.

        SORRY, BUT I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEANT IN THE ABOVE SENTENCE.

        > Gonzalo comes from Gundinsalvo.

        REALLY? I READ IN A GENEOLOGY MESSAGE BOARD THAT THE ORIGINAL NAME
        WAS "KINSOLVING", WHICH LATER EVOLVED TO "CONSOLVO", AND FINALLY TO
        "GONZALO". ANYWAYS - IS "GUNDINSALVO" GOTHIC? IS DEFINITELY LOOKS
        LIKE IT COULD BE.

        > Vandals quickly passed to Africa.

        TRUE, BUT NOT BEFORE HAVING MANY KIDS WITH HISPANIC WIVES. THE
        VANDALS ARE ANOTHER TRIBE THAT ALSO HAVE AN UNFAIRLY BAD REPUTATION.
        THEY DID TRY TO FINALLY SETTLE DOWN IN ANDALUSIA WITH THEIR NEW
        FAMILIES, BUT THE VISIGOTHS KCIKED THEM OUT. IRONIC ISIN'T IT?

        >> This equals to atleast 360,000 Germanics in a country who's
        >>population ranged somewhere between 4-6 million - this is a pretty
        >>significant number if you ask me.

        > It's 5-10 % at most.

        5-10% IS SIGNIFICANT IF YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. THE FRANKS IN GAUL
        WERE OUTNUMBERED 1/20, BUT IT IS STILL CALLED "FRANCE" AND THE PEOPLE
        STILL THINK OF THEMSELVES AS "FRENCH".

        >> If 5,000 Vikings is enough to name an entire
        >> region of France "Normandy" how can hundreds of thousands of
        >>Germanics living in Hispania be dismissed as a minor element?

        > Because Normandy was an _empty_ place. And, they were not 5000.

        NORMANDY WAS BY NO MEANS AN EMPTY PLACE. IT ALREADY HAD A SIGNIFICANT
        GALLO-ROMAN AND FRANKISH POPULATION. HAD IT BEEN EMPTY - THE VIKINGS
        WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO PLUNDER.


        SALUDOS!,

        <img src="http://www.legends.dm.net/art/cid-sm3.jpg">
      • Manuel Gutierrez Algaba
        ... I ve heard that Iberians might be related to Phoenicians and other semitic cultures. I think experts don t know exactly what they were. The iberian
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 18, 2000
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          On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Axeage wrote:
          > > Iberians? are they semitic? are they north africans? old
          > >europeans? Are basques iberians ?
          >
          > THE IBERIANS WERE NOT SEMITIC. SEMITIC RELATES TO THE ARABIC AND
          > HEBREW PEOPLE, THEIR CULTURE, AND LANGUAGES.

          I've heard that Iberians might be related to Phoenicians and other
          semitic cultures. I think experts don't know exactly what they were.
          The iberian language is known, at least, how it's spelt and how
          it sounds , nor meanings, nor grammar.

          > DURING THE MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC PERIODS. OBVIOUSLY, THEIR
          > PRESENCE WAS STRONGEST IN THE IBERIAN PENINSULA - BUT THEY ALSO
          > SETTLED IN LARGE NUMBERS IN AQUITANIA (GASCONY), SOUTHERN ENGLAND,
          > WALES, THE WESTERN COASTS OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND, AND EVEN THE
          > WESTERN COASTS OF NORWAY...

          Incredible! Iberians in Norway, first news of it.

          > PLUS THE SUEBIES SETTLED IN GALICIA - WHERE THERE WERE LESS ROMANS
          > THAN IN ANDALUSIA, FOR EXAMPLE. LIGHT COLORED HAIR AND EYES ARE MORE
          > COMMON IN GALICIA THAN ANDALUSIA AREN'T THEY?? SO MAYBE GALICIANS
          > HAVE MORE CELTIC AND GERMANIC BLOOD THAN ANDALUSIANS?

          It happens that many Andalusian towns are settlements of Galicians
          (Axarquia) during XV century onwards. There's even French (La
          Luisiana ) or German (La Carolina) in XVIII century. I've heard
          that people in Asturias (close to Galicia) there's lot of blond
          people. But, again, we're mixed.

          >
          > >Well, it's the "is" ending of indoeuropean.
          >
          Lactis, lactis --> milk.
          Joe's horse --> the apostrophe is to replace the "i".
          -is is the desinence of property ( the genitive).

          > > Gonzalo comes from Gundinsalvo.
          >
          > REALLY? I READ IN A GENEOLOGY MESSAGE BOARD THAT THE ORIGINAL NAME
          > WAS "KINSOLVING",

          Correct me if not, but the -ing ending is something _very_
          English, not Germanic nor indoeuropean. I think Gothics have no
          -ing ending words _at all_.

          > WHICH LATER EVOLVED TO "CONSOLVO", AND FINALLY TO

          There're phonetic rules, and the step "i-->o" is much harder
          than "u-->o". Perhaps, kundinsolvus --> kinsolvis

          > "GONZALO". ANYWAYS - IS "GUNDINSALVO" GOTHIC? IS DEFINITELY LOOKS

          Having a look to other Gothic king names :
          Chindasvinto, Rencesvinto, Wamba, Gundemaro, Leovigildo, Sisebuto

          it seems that "usually" they're composed of two words of two
          syllabs , or one word of two syllabs. "kinsolving" or
          "chinsolvingo"... I don't know.


          >
          > > Vandals quickly passed to Africa.
          >
          > TRUE, BUT NOT BEFORE HAVING MANY KIDS WITH HISPANIC WIVES

          They stayed very few years... I think the only thing Vandals
          left us were:
          - the sustantive: "vandals attacking downtown"
          - the name Al-Vandalus (the vandals ) --> Andalusia

          > THE
          > VANDALS ARE ANOTHER TRIBE THAT ALSO HAVE AN UNFAIRLY BAD REPUTATION.

          Yes, they only robbed, raped and kill... Byzantinus killed them
          in North Africa.

          > THEY DID TRY TO FINALLY SETTLE DOWN IN ANDALUSIA WITH THEIR NEW
          > FAMILIES, BUT THE VISIGOTHS KCIKED THEM OUT. IRONIC ISIN'T IT?

          Why ironic? That was their work.

          >
          > NORMANDY WAS BY NO MEANS AN EMPTY PLACE. IT ALREADY HAD A SIGNIFICANT
          > GALLO-ROMAN AND FRANKISH POPULATION. HAD IT BEEN EMPTY - THE VIKINGS
          > WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO PLUNDER.

          They plunder other zones. Normandy was (is) a insane zone of
          swamps and forest, cold and wet, certainly not the best part of
          France.

          >
          > SALUDOS!,
          >
          > <img src="http://www.legends.dm.net/art/cid-sm3.jpg">
          >

          I run "pine". :)

          Regards/Saludos
          Manolo
          www.ctv.es/USERS/irmina /TeEncontreX.html /texpython.htm
          /pyttex.htm /cruo/cruolinux.htm ICQ:77697936 (sirve el ICQ para algo?)

          Fidelity, n.: A virtue peculiar to those who are about to be betrayed.
        • Axeage
          THIS IS THE LAST POST I WILL WRITE CONCERNING THIS ISSUE, IT IS GETTING TOO FAR OFF THE TOPIC OF THIS MESSAGE FORUM... ... ...THIS IS TAKEN FROM RENOWNED
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 18, 2000
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            THIS IS THE LAST POST I WILL WRITE CONCERNING THIS ISSUE, IT IS
            GETTING TOO FAR OFF THE TOPIC OF THIS MESSAGE FORUM...

            In gothic-l@egroups.com, Manuel Gutierrez Algaba <irmina@c...> wrote:

            >> DURING THE MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC PERIODS. OBVIOUSLY, THEIR
            >> PRESENCE WAS STRONGEST IN THE IBERIAN PENINSULA - BUT THEY ALSO
            >> SETTLED IN LARGE NUMBERS IN AQUITANIA (GASCONY), SOUTHERN ENGLAND,
            >>WALES, THE WESTERN COASTS OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND, AND EVEN THE
            >>WESTERN COASTS OF NORWAY...

            > Incredible! Iberians in Norway, first news of it.

            ...THIS IS TAKEN FROM RENOWNED ANTHROPOLOGIST CARLETON COON'S BOOK
            "THE RACES OF EUROPE" CHAPTER XI, SECTION 15 'THE IBERIAN PENINSULA':

            "...During the third millennium B.C., food-producing peoples entered
            Spain from North Africa with swine, sheep, and goats, and with
            barley, emmer, and other plants. The physical type of these invaders
            is well known to us, not only through skeletal remains, but also by
            means of our study of the living peoples of North Africa. Some of
            these invaders remained in Spain and Portugal, where they became the
            basic populations of these countries; others passed northward over
            the Pyrenees into eastern France and Switzerland, while still others
            passed northward as far as Germany, and into the British Isles.

            Toward the beginning of the second millennium B.C., if not earlier,
            these agricultural colonists were reënforced by a people of much
            higher culture, the megalith-building tall Mediterraneans, who came
            by sea, and many of whom went on from Spain as far as the British
            Isles and Scandinavia. Their settlements in Spain were located mostly
            upon the eastern seaboard, and on the northern Atlantic coast,
            particularly in the region of the Bay of Biscay. They are followed by
            other peoples of a general Mediterranean type, but coming from Asia
            Minor, as their exaggerated nasal form indicates. These new invaders
            brought the knowledge of metal with them from the east, and were the
            first of the prospectors to visit this metal-rich peninsula. They in
            turn were followed by round-headed compatriots with the same nasal
            peculiarities, who introduced the Dinaric racial type to western
            Europe... In post-Roman times Germanic invaders, the Goths and
            Vandals, brought a second Nordic infusion to the peninsula..."

            ...IT ALL REALLY DEPENDS ON WHAT IS AN "IBERIAN" IN YOUR VIEW. FOR
            SOME, THE IBERIANS WERE ONLY THE PEOPLE WHO SETTLED ALONG THE EBRO
            RIVER. OTHERS THINK THAT THEY SETTLED ALONG ALL OF THE EASTERN COAST,
            WHILE OTHERS THINK THAT "IBERIAN" MEANT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT SETTLED
            THE IBERIAN PENINSULA BEFORE THE FIRST INDO-EUROPEAN INVASIONS,
            INCLUDING THOSE WHO LIVED ALONG THE NORTHERN COASTS(THE ONES OF WHICH
            SOME REACHED LANDS FARTHER UP NORTH). IF YOU ARE ONE OF THESE - THEN
            YES, YOU CAN SAY THAT "IBERIANS" REACHED AS FAR AS NORWAY...

            >But, again, we're mixed.

            HERE IS MORE FROM COON'S BOOK. SAME CHAPTER...

            "Despite the complex political history of Spain, the living
            population is basically and almost wholly Mediterranean... more than
            one Mediterranean strain is obviously involved. The head form is
            almost everywhere mesocephalic;not even in Andalusia does a Moorish
            or Arab degree of dolichocephaly prevail.

            Two widely observed racial characters serve to differentiate the
            Spaniards from most of the living inhabitants of Arabia and North
            Africa: hair color and nasal profile. In Spain, as a whole, some 29
            per cent of the male population has black hair, some 68 per cent dark
            brown, while traces of blondism are visible in 17 per cent. In most
            of North Africa and Arabia, the black hair is commoner than the dark
            brown. The nasal profiles of some 120,000 Spaniards are convex in 15
            per cent of cases, straight in 72 per cent, and concave in 13 per
            cent. In Arabia and North Africa east of Morocco, the commonest
            profile form is usually convex, and coneaves are very rare. The
            prevalence of these two features - dark brown hair and a straight
            nasal profile, indicates that the bulk of the Spanish population is
            derived from the earlier Mediterranean In-vasions of Mesolithic and
            Neolithic date.

            ...Another useful series is one of 420 adult males from Andalusia,
            representing the most brunet population in Spain, and the one which
            supposedly contains the most Arab and Berber blood.
            Sixty per cent have dark brown hair, 30 per cent black hair. The
            remaining 10 per cent show some evidence of blondism or of rufosity.
            Only one man out of 420 was truly blond. The hair is straight in half
            the series, wavy in a third, and curly in a sixth. Sixty per cent of
            Andalusians have pure brown eyes, of which the majority are dark
            brown, although light brown and mixed-brown irises occur. Mixed-light
            eyes comprise 30 per cent of the series, with a prevalence of
            greenish-brown shades, while 10 per cent of the whole sample
            possesses bluish-gray eyes, on the gray rather than blue side. A
            ratio of 40 per cent of light or incipiently light eyes is higher
            than one expects to find among racially pure Mediterraneans, and
            indicates the infusion of Nordic blood, from both North European and
            Berber sources. Probably if the rest of Spain were studied for eye
            color in the same way, higher ratios of eye blondism would appear
            elsewhere, since most of the green-brown eyes in this sample are
            predominantly dark...


            The racial character of the richer, city-dwelling Moors of Andalusia.
            before the time of their expulsion, may be suggested by a study of
            the almost wholly unmixed descendants of these émigrés in
            Morocco. In
            the city of Sheshawen the old, aristocratic families are descended
            from the former aristocrats of Granada, and have lived endogamously
            since 1492. A little Ruffian blood has crept in, but aside from that
            the She-sbawen families remain an island of Andalusian Moors on
            Moroccan soil. A small, homogeneous sample of these people shows a
            much closer relationship with Spain than with Morocco. They are a
            little longer-headed (194.5 mm.), a little more dolichocephalic (C.
            I. = 76.5) and a little longer-faced (123 mm.) than the Christian
            Andalusians; the bigonial diameter of 103 mm., although wide for
            Spain as a whole, is of Andalusian size. The Sheshawen Moors have
            predominantly dark brown hair and dark brown eyes, with brunet-white
            skin color. In facial morphology, they are fully Andalusian. The
            implication is that the Moors in Spain took more from the population
            of the peninsula, in a racial sense, than they gave. Our earlier
            conclusion that the Andalusians are Mediterraneans of largely
            Neolithic derivation is supported by this unexpected evidence."

            ...SPANIARDS ARE NOT AS MIXED OR SEMITIC AS PEOPLE BELIEVE, BUT YOU
            SEEM TO BE AS CERTAIN THAT THEY(WE) ARE AS MUCH AS I AM THAT THEY(WE)
            ARE NOT. BUT IF YOU INSIST ON IT, FINE...

            > Lactis, lactis --> milk.
            > Joe's horse --> the apostrophe is to replace the "i".
            > -is is the desinence of property ( the genitive).

            OK, I GET IT NOW.

            >> THE VANDALS ARE ANOTHER TRIBE THAT ALSO HAVE AN UNFAIRLY BAD
            REPUTATION.

            > Yes, they only robbed, raped and kill... Byzantinus killed them
            > in North Africa.

            ...WOMEN CAN GET PREGNANT FROM BEING RAPED.

            >> THEY DID TRY TO FINALLY SETTLE DOWN IN ANDALUSIA WITH THEIR NEW
            >> FAMILIES, BUT THE VISIGOTHS KCIKED THEM OUT. IRONIC ISIN'T IT?

            > Why ironic? That was their work.

            ...IRONIC BECAUSE THE VANDALS WERE IN A SIMILAR POSITION TO THE
            GOTHS. THEY WERE LOOKING FOR A PLACE WHERE THEY COULD FINALLY SETTLE
            DOWN, BUT IN THE ROMAN'S EYES - THEY WERE NOTHING BUT PESTS TO GET
            RID OFF. THE ROMANS WERE NOT TOO FOND OF NEITHER THE GOTHS NOR THE
            VANDALS, SO THEY USED ONE AGAINST THE OTHER, FIGUIRING THAT IT WOULD
            BE NO BIG LOSS IF THEY KILLED EACH OTHER.

            CARL,
          • Manuel Gutierrez Algaba
            ... Ok, I m Mediterranean. Take it easy. With some drops of Gothic blood and vocabulary. Very useful post. And mainly it s true, in fact, I had heard something
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 18, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, Axeage wrote:
              >
              > ...SPANIARDS ARE NOT AS MIXED OR SEMITIC AS PEOPLE BELIEVE, BUT YOU
              > SEEM TO BE AS CERTAIN THAT THEY(WE) ARE AS MUCH AS I AM THAT THEY(WE)
              > ARE NOT. BUT IF YOU INSIST ON IT, FINE...

              Ok, I'm Mediterranean. Take it easy. With some drops of Gothic
              blood and vocabulary. Very useful post. And mainly it's true, in
              fact, I had heard something like that but I had almost forgot it.
              And yes, I'm dark brown haired ( a bit blond when 2-3 years old)
              and brown eyes.

              About the noses... Many french people has long noses and convex, like
              arabs.
              In fact, I think Germanic people tend to have long noses.

              Ok, to retake the topic:
              do you know that "ganar" (to win) and "guardar" ( to guard) are
              from gothic?

              wana --> ambition

              guante --> gauntlet

              Sometimes, I doubt if the word comes from Frankish or from Gothic.

              And about surnames:
              Gotor, Ordoñez.

              Is there that book ?

              About Ostrogoth, yes they had strong relationships with Visigoths,
              even migrations, mainly when Visigoths still rule Tolosa kingdom.

              And, I read in the Enclopedia that Visigoths were in the west side
              of Dnieper river and Ostrogoths in the east.

              I've reread a bit of "Poema de Mio Cid" (btw, Cid comes from arab
              El-sidi-> the master) looking after gothic constructions/words.

              guisar (modern ) --> cook, prepare something
              yantar ? --> eat
              robar (well, this is fully modern ) --> to rob
              zaga ? (in football, defense line) --> rearguard
              lidiar ? (appliable to bullfighting ) --> fight
              vasallo --> servant
              galardon (modern too)--> prize , gif, I think that it comes from gualardon
              barragan ? --> guy
              guarnicion ? (modern too) --> garrison, troops in charge of something
              guarnecer

              Regards/Saludos
              Manolo
              www.ctv.es/USERS/irmina /TeEncontreX.html /texpython.htm
              /pyttex.htm /cruo/cruolinux.htm ICQ:77697936 (sirve el ICQ para algo?)

              Consultant, n.: An ordinary man a long way from home.
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