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Introduction of myself.

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  • Manuel Gutierrez Algaba
    ... I m a student of Computer Science (last year, last subject). I strongly believe that Computer Science is strongly related to linguistics ( more than to
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 20, 2000
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      > Thank you for your request to subscribe to Gothic-L. We are pleased by
      > your enthusiasm. In order to process your subscription and ensure the
      > satisfaction of all members, we first ask that you respond to this email
      > with a brief summary of yourself and your interests as they relate to
      > the concerns of Gothic-L.

      I'm a student of Computer Science (last year, last subject). I
      strongly believe that Computer Science is strongly related to
      linguistics ( more than to maths or engineering). For example,
      lots of AI problems have a strong linguistic flavour.
      I programm in python, tcl, expect and Java , I like AI.
      I like History in general. And I enjoy to know how the pieces
      of puzzles fit. Specially in the matter of indoeuropean languages,
      recently I've learned many funny things:
      - Tavos ( lithuanian) has the same meaning that teva ( catalonian)
      , and they're separated by thousands of years and kilometers .
      - Punjab ( the region in the india) means Five rivers region,
      and punt == penta == quinto = five , ab == abhain (gaelic) = amnis
      (latin) == river
      - vratya ( punjabi) == brodar (gothic) == brudar (german) == barozar
      (iranian)

      This sort of incredible "coincidences" and the fact that all
      europe and a great bunch of Asia speak the same language ( with
      strong and specific derivations ) is exciting.

      Moreover, Visigothics are an important part of Spanish history.
      From V century to VIII , with the arab invasion. They didn't
      bring new ideas, but some of our current Spanish vocabulary is
      based on Gothic words, mainly of war issues. So an understanding
      of Gothic is a bit of understanding of my own (rich) culture.

      I want to state clear that I'm not a nazi and that I don't
      like Gothic music, but Depeche Mode and techno-pop general. It
      seems to me you
      have to have known a bit of these. Although some drops of
      Gothic blood may run my veins, I'm more than sure that I have
      more of :
      - Latin
      - Iberian ( in any of their flavour tribes)
      - Arab
      - Jew
      - Greek

      In the list , I'd like to complete some new pieces of the puzzles,
      plus discuss some Spanish words of Visigothic origin, the
      influence of Gothic in Spanish.
      Perhaps , Spain was the country with more important Gothic culture,
      in Italy they were anihilated by Bizantinus, and in North Europe
      they were replaced by more "active" germanic tribes. The Bible
      of that Bishop and origin of most of Gothic language we have and
      _only_ written document of Germanic languages before IX century
      was written in Spain.

      There's a part of spain (Palencia, more or less in the
      Central-North-west) where they settled massively, and there you
      can find lots of towns with Gothic names.

      Regretfully , the arab invasion of VIII century messed things a little
      and probably all the goths living there moved to the North coast,
      a mountainous zone. So it's difficult /not to say impossible to
      trace back which zones belong to "some races". Spain is a great
      mix of cultures.

      Andalucia , the place where I live, Andalucia comes from Vandalus
      (another germanic tribe), well, here there're even settlements
      of German and French people during the XVIII century. We have not
      the racial "histeric-stupidness" that rules in some parts
      of Europe (Austria, Czeck republic).

      And I have a question for you, I've heard that "Gutierrez" is
      gothic and it means "the man who leads the army". In Sanskrit
      Goptri (-->Gupta) (probably related to it)
      means "the man who leads the army",
      too.

      So, does it have that meaning ?

      To feed discussion, some words of Spanish (of probable Gothic
      origin):

      - bregar : to struggle
      - azafata : stewardess
      - guerra : war , guerrilla is the diminutive.
      - blanco : white
      - estribo : -
      - rodrigo : stick placed in the earth (?)
      - cofia : stuff that woman servants wear in the head.

      Some famous Spanish Visigothic kings (there 20 or 30):
      - Wamba
      - Recaredo
      - Leovigildo
      - Recesvinto

      I imagine that those names have meanings. Richard is simply
      Rich heart= generous.

      What's more? , in V century 100,000 visigothics invaded Spain,
      controlling a 6,000,000 million strong country, not so
      "industrialized" as Italy, but with important cities and rich
      agriculture. Spain was then (probably) the second Western Europe
      country
      in terms of population and economy. BTW, it was Hispania (
      Spain + Portugal). For almost two centuries, they had the military
      control and they mixed with the local latin nobleness.

      For a time they behave as invaders. They had their own code,
      they spoke their own language and their own Christian flavour
      (arrianismus). They spent all the time quarrelling each other or
      fighting with other germanic invaders (Suevus in nort-west)
      , Vandalus (south), or Bizantium (well, these are not germanic)
      in the south.

      Somehow, arab invasion was promoted by internal factions of
      nobles, and a cause of the fast arab invasion (less than 10 years,
      while the Romans took 200+ years) was their poor political structure
      and how bad they have fit in the Hispania society by VIII century.

      Even so, by VIII century Visigothics could be considered Spanish
      and not invaders any more.

      In VIII century "Reconquista" started, and "loyal Christian Goths
      and some other loyal Spanish and High-lands (cantabrus) people"
      started to conquer all the land arab have occupied, the only arab-free
      land was in Asturias (in the mountains of the north).
      For the next 7 centuries , till XV century,... , the lost Visigothic
      state was a remembrance of an ideal world. The Christian militaristic
      society of the Northern Spain somehow hold part of the "values" and
      "language" of Goths embedded in a somehow low-level evolved form of
      Latin.
      Southern
      Spain was always much more advanced and literate, so they had a
      better and purer Latin. Well "Reconquista" conditioned Spain
      history till XX century, and it brought unexpected results like:
      - The born of Portugal, as nation. Well, Aragon-Catalunya too.
      - The discovery of America ( suddenly there were no arabs in
      Spain, so they had to continue fighting and conquering, first
      in North Africa, then America).

      Most kings (Leon-Castillian) I can remember have Gothic
      names:
      - Pelayo (?)
      - Fernando (Ferdinand)
      - Alfonso X
      - Sancho IV

      And some other names, like :
      - Beltran


      Regards/Saludos
      Manolo
      www.ctv.es/USERS/irmina /TeEncontreX.html /texpython.htm
      /pyttex.htm /cruo/cruolinux.htm ICQ:77697936 (sirve el ICQ para algo?)

      Cold, adj.: When the politicians walk around with their hands in their own pockets.
    • Axeage
      Hi - I m new here as well... You said : Visigothics are an important part of Spanish history. From V century to VIII , with the arab invasion. They didn t
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 16, 2000
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        Hi - I'm new here as well...

        You said :"Visigothics are an important part of Spanish history. From
        V century to VIII , with the arab invasion. They didn't bring new
        ideas, but some of our current Spanish vocabulary is based on Gothic
        words, mainly of war issues. So an understanding of Gothic is a bit
        of understanding of my own (rich) culture."

        The Visigoths were indeed an very important part of Spanish history.
        I personally think that people don't give them enough credit, since
        most Spaniards still see the Goths as nothing more than fur-clad, axe-
        wielding barbarians - which as everyone here probably knows, is
        totally false. The truth is that that it was the Visigoths who gave
        birth to Spain as a nation by uniting the various regions and ethnic
        groups. It was the Visigoths who led the reconquest, and It was the
        Visigothic code of hononor which became the spanish ideal of
        chivalry.

        You said: "I want to state clear that I'm not a nazi and that I don't
        like Gothic music. Although some drops of Gothic blood may run my
        veins, I'm more than sure that I have more of : Latin ,Iberian (in
        any of their flavour tribes), Arab, Jew, Greek."

        Since when does having an interest in your ancestry and country's
        past qualify you as a nazi??? About those groups of people you've
        mentioned - it really depends what part of Spain you come from
        (Ex:the Basques have none of these, while the Andalusians have the
        most Berber blood in all of Spain) The Germanic element is definetely
        an important one - much more so than the Arabic, Jewish, and Greek:

        1.Latins/Romans: Roman settlers did come in large numbers, but they
        tended to settle in eastern and southern colonies such as Cadiz,
        Seville, Tarragona, Merida, and Malaga.

        2.Arabs: Arabs were never of any real significance, you must be
        talking about the Berbers (Moors). The majority of the Berbers were
        kicked out in the 15th century with the fall of Granada. Many were
        allowed to stay if they converted to Catholicism - but in 1609, king
        Felipe had them expelled anyway. This does not mean that many mixed
        Catholic Berber/hispanic children were not born though. This was
        common enough - especially in Andalusia.

        3.Jews: The Jews were similar to the Romans - as they came in large
        numbers, but usually stuck to the major towns and cities such as
        Barcelona, Seville, and so on. They basically met the same fate as
        the Berbers after the fall of Granada. Just like the Berbers, the
        Jews that were not immidiately kicked out were allowed to stay if
        they converted to Catholicism, but they were constantly harassed by
        the Inquisition, and were eventually expelled anyway. It is safe to
        say that people of part Jewish ancestry had it even worse than people
        of part Berber ancestry.

        4.Greeks: The Greeks are the least important of this group - as they
        were too few in numbers, and did not come with any intentions of
        settling the land, aside from a few trading posts along the
        mediterranean. Greek ancestry is very unlikely.

        ...by the way - you totally forgot about the Iberian Celts!!

        I'd say that most Spaniards are basically a mixture of Iberians,
        Celts, Romans, and Germanics. Although many Andalusians and southern
        Spaniards may have some moorish blood.

        You said: "And I have a question for you, I've heard that "Gutierrez"
        is gothic and it means "the man who leads the army". In Sanskrit
        Goptri (-->Gupta) (probably related to it) means "the man who leads
        the army",too. So, does it have that meaning?"

        Hmmm, this is a tough one. I too have heard that names ending with
        "ez" are of gothic origin. Surnames ending with "ez" mean "son of",
        but I have no clue as to wether "ez" is gothic for "son". Gutierrez
        actually means "son of the man who leads the army". Itis probable
        that many spanish names ending with "ez" are of gothic origin because
        when you see the names connected to them - they are very gothic
        sounding. For example: "Rodriguez" means "son of Rodrigo", but
        Rodrigo is the hispanc version of "Roderic". "Gonzalez" means "son of
        Gonzalo", "Gonzalo" is the hispanic version of "Kinsolving".

        You said: "What's more? , in V century 100,000 visigothics invaded
        Spain, controlling a 6,000,000 million strong country... BTW, it was
        Hispania (Spain + Portugal). For almost two centuries, they had the
        military control and they mixed with the local latin nobleness...
        Even so, by VIII century Visigothics could be considered Spanish and
        not invaders any more."

        Actually, it is believed that it was closer to 200,000. Add to this
        number an additional 80,000 Suevies and another 80,000 Vandals. This
        equals to atleast 360,000 Germanics in a country who's population
        ranged somewhere between 4-6 million - this is a pretty significant
        number if you ask me. If 5,000 Vikings is enough to name an entire
        region of France "Normandy" how can hundreds of thousands of Germanics
        living in Hispania be dismissed as a minor element? Why not a spanish
        "Scandza"?
        Like I said, most Spaniards do not give enough credit to the Goths.
        It is true that that by the 8th century the Goths could no longer be
        considered ethnically gothic. Some Germanic tribes such as the
        Franks, the Saxons, the Angles, etc. travelled only a few hundred
        miles to their new settlements in northen France, Belgium, and
        England. These tribes could easily take their entire families with
        them and therefore successfully preserve their ethnic identity for
        much longer, but the germanic tribes that settled in Hispania
        (Visigoths, Suevies, Vandals) were made up almost entirely of male
        adventurers who had travelled hundreds of thousands of miles and
        could not take their families with them. This resulted in most of
        them taking up hispanic wives and therefore dissapearing as a
        distinct ethnic group faster than the germanic tribes further up
        north.
      • Manuel Gutierrez Algaba
        ... Well, Visigothics were quite civilized Germanic people, hundreds of years more civilized than Saxons. The proof of it is their artwork: - Jewelry .
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 16, 2000
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          On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Axeage wrote:
          >
          > The Visigoths were indeed an very important part of Spanish history.
          > I personally think that people don't give them enough credit, since
          > most Spaniards still see the Goths as nothing more than fur-clad, axe-
          > wielding barbarians - which as everyone here probably knows, is
          > totally false.

          Well, Visigothics were quite "civilized" Germanic people, hundreds
          of years more civilized than Saxons. The proof of it is their
          artwork:
          - Jewelry . Crowns for Saints.
          - Small traces of architecture. Some visigothics columns were
          reused for the Mosque of Cordoba ( for example)

          And that they had in mind the idea of "a state". Most countries
          in Europe claim to be the oldest one. Undoubtfully Rome created
          an empire of cities depending from them. But, Rome were mainly
          the combination of Law+Legions. I think there were no idea of
          "nationalism" in the "germanic" sense of it. Of course, romans
          regarded themselves as superior. But "romans" from Londinium
          (for example) or "romans" from "Emerita Augusta" didn't have the
          same feelings than people from Manchester and people from Birmighan.
          And yes, Visigothics considered Hispania a personal property.
          Hispania was theirs and therefore, Franks and any other germanic
          tribe was enemy. Thinking this way, they created the first "modern"
          state of Europe. Other tribes fight for territory (which could
          be split (in the case of Franks) ) or migrate. But visigothics
          never split Hispania, and never migrate (till the end), they
          imprinted some kind of unity, that was a model for the future
          (of Spain and Europe).


          > The truth is that that it was the Visigoths who gave
          > birth to Spain as a nation by uniting the various regions and ethnic
          > groups.

          This was a two step work:
          - Romans erode small wars between all the groups and stablish
          a common law , and an internal peace.
          - Visigothics supply the idea of "Us". First for themselves, but
          somehow that idea extended to the whole of the population, specially
          from X century onwards.

          > It was the Visigoths who led the reconquest, and It was the
          > Visigothic code of hononor which became the spanish ideal of
          > chivalry.

          One difference between "French Chivalry songs and romances"
          and "Spanish Chivalry songs" is that French tend to be French ( :) )
          and lie and exagerate things (deliberately ) to unbelivable points
          and Spanish Chivalry stories whose highest point is "El cantar
          del Mio Cid" are very realistic. I think this is a gift from
          Visigothics : to be frank, to be humble if necessary but always
          telling the truth and being realistic and of course be brave.
          This idea ,I think, is very "germanic", very simple (like germanus
          were) and I think is theirs. Probably it's the only "germanic" idea
          in Spanish character. Don Quixote is probably an essay about gothic
          ideas (???).

          >
          > Since when does having an interest in your ancestry and country's
          > past qualify you as a nazi??? About those groups of people you've
          > mentioned - it really depends what part of Spain you come from

          I come from South, but lots of people migrate from north, so I have
          blood of almost every place (basque included).

          > (Ex:the Basques have none of these, while the Andalusians have the
          > most Berber blood in all of Spain)

          This is not true. In fact, Vitoria in Basque Country was a city
          founded by Visigothics ( Victoriaco , the city of Victory) due to
          a victory over basques. Old Basques were enclosed in a very tiny
          region of Spain, and little is left of them. Besides, basques were
          the people who resettle christian land. Castilla in fact is
          neighbouring to Basques. We are really mixed.

          > The Germanic element is definetely
          > an important one - much more so than the Arabic, Jewish, and Greek:
          >
          > 1.Latins/Romans: Roman settlers did come in large numbers, but they
          > tended to settle in eastern and southern colonies such as Cadiz,
          > Seville, Tarragona, Merida, and Malaga.

          I picture it this way:
          - A pure Roman descendent living in Italica (Seville) in
          715 A.D. fleeds north escaping from arabs.
          - A pure Roman descendent living in Italica in 1230 fleeds south
          escaping from Christian.

          How many migrations? diseases in cities? migrations from city
          to countryside? resettlements from Africa, Northern Spain?
          It's very complex.

          >
          > 2.Arabs: Arabs were never of any real significance, you must be
          > talking about the Berbers (Moors). The majority of the Berbers were
          > kicked out in the 15th century with the fall of Granada. Many were
          > allowed to stay if they converted to Catholicism - but in 1609, king
          > Felipe had them expelled anyway. This does not mean that many mixed
          > Catholic Berber/hispanic children were not born though. This was
          > common enough - especially in Andalusia.

          Well, in Valencia (easth) there were important colonies and in
          Aragon there were a lot. Truly, masses of Moors were sent back
          to Africa. But, in fact, many muslims were of Roman/Iberian/visigothic
          origin and they were sent to Africa too. Most of 5 million in (8
          century)
          people under arab goberment stay in their land, and most converted
          to Islam, just to survive. And, from 1200 to 1500 lots of mixing
          and convertions happened in South Spain. So, berber blood is here
          too. And the influence of arab vocabulary in Spanish can be
          resumed saying that 6000 common Spanish words are arabs.

          >
          > 3.Jews: The Jews were similar to the Romans - as they came in large
          > numbers, but usually stuck to the major towns and cities such as
          > Barcelona, Seville, and so on. They basically met the same fate as
          > the Berbers after the fall of Granada.

          There were lots of conversions, some surnames like :
          - Gil
          are known for being used for conversors.

          Ok, masses of jews were sent to Portugal/north europe/Africa....
          But, undoubtfully some of them converted... and that "some" can
          be "many".

          > Just like the Berbers, the
          > Jews that were not immidiately kicked out were allowed to stay if
          > they converted to Catholicism, but they were constantly harassed by
          > the Inquisition


          >
          > 4.Greeks: The Greeks are the least important of this group - as they
          > were too few in numbers, and did not come with any intentions of
          > settling the land, aside from a few trading posts along the
          > mediterranean. Greek ancestry is very unlikely.

          You're wrong. They were not few, truly they founded cities in
          the coasts, but they founded 100+ . Besides they collaborated
          massively with Romans, so their cities grew a lot and in fact,
          occupied some land of native iberians during Pax Romana.

          > ...by the way - you totally forgot about the Iberian Celts!!

          Celtiberians . Well, the interesting mix of Celts and Iberian.
          Living in the center of Spain. Well, Numantia and some other
          heroic wars probably left celtiberian population to a testimonial
          role in Spanish gene.
          Iberians? are they semitic? are they north africans
          ?
          old europeans? And celts , yes they live/lived in Galicia.
          Are basques iberians ?

          >
          > I'd say that most Spaniards are basically a mixture of Iberians,
          > Celts, Romans, and Germanics.

          Yes, but to what extent? I think it's basically unmeasurable. I
          wouldn't measure even the semitic/indoeuropean/african variables.

          >Although many Andalusians and southern
          > Spaniards may have some moorish blood.

          This is not true, simply because thousands of people from north
          founded towns in the south.

          >
          > You said: "And I have a question for you, I've heard that "Gutierrez"
          > is gothic and it means "the man who leads the army". In Sanskrit
          > Goptri (-->Gupta) (probably related to it) means "the man who leads
          > the army",too. So, does it have that meaning?"
          >
          > Hmmm, this is a tough one. I too have heard that names ending with
          > "ez" are of gothic origin. Surnames ending with "ez" mean "son of",

          Well, it's the "is" ending of indoeuropean.

          > but I have no clue as to wether "ez" is gothic for "son". Gutierrez
          > Gonzalo", "Gonzalo" is the hispanic version of "Kinsolving".

          Gonzalo comes from Gundinsalvo.

          >
          > Actually, it is believed that it was closer to 200,000. Add to this
          > number an additional 80,000 Suevies and another 80,000 Vandals.

          Vandals quickly passed to Africa. And Suevis, yes, they live
          in Galicia. Galicia is probably the most "germanic/celtic" part of
          Spain.


          > This
          > equals to atleast 360,000 Germanics in a country who's population
          > ranged somewhere between 4-6 million - this is a pretty significant
          > number if you ask me.

          It's 5-10 % at most.

          > If 5,000 Vikings is enough to name an entire
          > region of France "Normandy" how can hundreds of thousands of Germanics
          > living in Hispania be dismissed as a minor element?

          Because Normandy was an _empty_ place. And, they were not 5000.

          > Why not a spanish
          > "Scandza"?
          > Like I said, most Spaniards do not give enough credit to the Goths.

          We give credit to them ( if you can supersede nowadays subnationalism
          feelings ).

          > It is true that that by the 8th century the Goths could no longer be
          > considered ethnically gothic.

          I think they were very ethnically gothic.

          > Some Germanic tribes such as the
          > Franks, the Saxons, the Angles, etc. travelled only a few hundred
          > miles to their new settlements in northen France, Belgium, and
          > England. These tribes could easily take their entire families with
          > them and therefore successfully preserve their ethnic identity for
          > much longer, but the germanic tribes that settled in Hispania
          > (Visigoths, Suevies, Vandals) were made up almost entirely of male
          > adventurers who had travelled hundreds of thousands of miles and
          > could not take their families with them. This resulted in most of
          > them taking up hispanic wives and therefore dissapearing as a
          > distinct ethnic group faster than the germanic tribes further up
          > north.

          No, they move with their families, and obviously they were:
          180,000 gothic males
          180,000 gothic females
          200,000 horses and donkeys (many, now that I think about it).

          Besides, Visigothics were a "federated" friend people of Rome, and
          their movements inside the empire were not considered harmful. In
          fact, they move to Spain to "protect" it from other germanic
          tribes.

          Regards/Saludos
          Manolo
          www.ctv.es/USERS/irmina /TeEncontreX.html /texpython.htm
          /pyttex.htm /cruo/cruolinux.htm ICQ:77697936 (sirve el ICQ para algo?)

          QOTD: Money isn't everything, but at least it keeps the kids in touch.
        • Axeage
          HELLO AGAIN! ... THE IBERIANS WERE NOT SEMITIC. SEMITIC RELATES TO THE ARABIC AND HEBREW PEOPLE, THEIR CULTURE, AND LANGUAGES. IBERIAN IS BASICALLY THE
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 17, 2000
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            HELLO AGAIN!


            In gothic-l@egroups.com, Manuel Gutierrez Algaba <irmina@c...> wrote:

            > Iberians? are they semitic? are they north africans? old
            >europeans? Are basques iberians ?

            THE IBERIANS WERE NOT SEMITIC. SEMITIC RELATES TO THE ARABIC AND
            HEBREW PEOPLE, THEIR CULTURE, AND LANGUAGES. "IBERIAN" IS BASICALLY
            THE COLLECTIVE TERM USED TO DESCRIBE VARIOUS MEDITERRANIC PRE-INDO
            EUROPEAN INVADERS WHO BEGAN TO SPREAD ACROSS MUCH OF WESTERN EUROPE
            DURING THE MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC PERIODS. OBVIOUSLY, THEIR
            PRESENCE WAS STRONGEST IN THE IBERIAN PENINSULA - BUT THEY ALSO
            SETTLED IN LARGE NUMBERS IN AQUITANIA (GASCONY), SOUTHERN ENGLAND,
            WALES, THE WESTERN COASTS OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND, AND EVEN THE
            WESTERN COASTS OF NORWAY...
            I HAVE NO CLUE AS TO WETHER OR NOT THE BASQUES ARE IBERIANS OR NOT.
            LIKE I SAID - THE TERM "IBERIAN" IS USED RATHER LOOSELY TO DESCRIBE
            MORE THAN ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO VARIED IN LANGUAGE AND EVEN
            PHYSICAL APPEARANCE.

            >> I'd say that most Spaniards are basically a mixture of Iberians,
            >> Celts, Romans, and Germanics.

            > Yes, but to what extent? I think it's basically unmeasurable. I
            > wouldn't measure even the semitic/indoeuropean/african variables.

            AGAIN - IT MAY DEPEND ON WHAT REGION OF SPAIN A PERSON IS
            FROM,BECAUSE OF ALL THE DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS (CASTILIANS,
            GALICIANS, CATALANONIANS, BASQUES, ETC.) FOR EXAMPLE: MANY CELTS,
            PLUS THE SUEBIES SETTLED IN GALICIA - WHERE THERE WERE LESS ROMANS
            THAN IN ANDALUSIA, FOR EXAMPLE. LIGHT COLORED HAIR AND EYES ARE MORE
            COMMON IN GALICIA THAN ANDALUSIA AREN'T THEY?? SO MAYBE GALICIANS
            HAVE MORE CELTIC AND GERMANIC BLOOD THAN ANDALUSIANS?

            >> Hmmm, this is a tough one. I too have heard that names ending
            >>with "ez" are of gothic origin. Surnames ending with "ez" mean "son
            >>of"

            >Well, it's the "is" ending of indoeuropean.

            SORRY, BUT I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEANT IN THE ABOVE SENTENCE.

            > Gonzalo comes from Gundinsalvo.

            REALLY? I READ IN A GENEOLOGY MESSAGE BOARD THAT THE ORIGINAL NAME
            WAS "KINSOLVING", WHICH LATER EVOLVED TO "CONSOLVO", AND FINALLY TO
            "GONZALO". ANYWAYS - IS "GUNDINSALVO" GOTHIC? IS DEFINITELY LOOKS
            LIKE IT COULD BE.

            > Vandals quickly passed to Africa.

            TRUE, BUT NOT BEFORE HAVING MANY KIDS WITH HISPANIC WIVES. THE
            VANDALS ARE ANOTHER TRIBE THAT ALSO HAVE AN UNFAIRLY BAD REPUTATION.
            THEY DID TRY TO FINALLY SETTLE DOWN IN ANDALUSIA WITH THEIR NEW
            FAMILIES, BUT THE VISIGOTHS KCIKED THEM OUT. IRONIC ISIN'T IT?

            >> This equals to atleast 360,000 Germanics in a country who's
            >>population ranged somewhere between 4-6 million - this is a pretty
            >>significant number if you ask me.

            > It's 5-10 % at most.

            5-10% IS SIGNIFICANT IF YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. THE FRANKS IN GAUL
            WERE OUTNUMBERED 1/20, BUT IT IS STILL CALLED "FRANCE" AND THE PEOPLE
            STILL THINK OF THEMSELVES AS "FRENCH".

            >> If 5,000 Vikings is enough to name an entire
            >> region of France "Normandy" how can hundreds of thousands of
            >>Germanics living in Hispania be dismissed as a minor element?

            > Because Normandy was an _empty_ place. And, they were not 5000.

            NORMANDY WAS BY NO MEANS AN EMPTY PLACE. IT ALREADY HAD A SIGNIFICANT
            GALLO-ROMAN AND FRANKISH POPULATION. HAD IT BEEN EMPTY - THE VIKINGS
            WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO PLUNDER.


            SALUDOS!,

            <img src="http://www.legends.dm.net/art/cid-sm3.jpg">
          • Manuel Gutierrez Algaba
            ... I ve heard that Iberians might be related to Phoenicians and other semitic cultures. I think experts don t know exactly what they were. The iberian
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 18, 2000
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              On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Axeage wrote:
              > > Iberians? are they semitic? are they north africans? old
              > >europeans? Are basques iberians ?
              >
              > THE IBERIANS WERE NOT SEMITIC. SEMITIC RELATES TO THE ARABIC AND
              > HEBREW PEOPLE, THEIR CULTURE, AND LANGUAGES.

              I've heard that Iberians might be related to Phoenicians and other
              semitic cultures. I think experts don't know exactly what they were.
              The iberian language is known, at least, how it's spelt and how
              it sounds , nor meanings, nor grammar.

              > DURING THE MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC PERIODS. OBVIOUSLY, THEIR
              > PRESENCE WAS STRONGEST IN THE IBERIAN PENINSULA - BUT THEY ALSO
              > SETTLED IN LARGE NUMBERS IN AQUITANIA (GASCONY), SOUTHERN ENGLAND,
              > WALES, THE WESTERN COASTS OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND, AND EVEN THE
              > WESTERN COASTS OF NORWAY...

              Incredible! Iberians in Norway, first news of it.

              > PLUS THE SUEBIES SETTLED IN GALICIA - WHERE THERE WERE LESS ROMANS
              > THAN IN ANDALUSIA, FOR EXAMPLE. LIGHT COLORED HAIR AND EYES ARE MORE
              > COMMON IN GALICIA THAN ANDALUSIA AREN'T THEY?? SO MAYBE GALICIANS
              > HAVE MORE CELTIC AND GERMANIC BLOOD THAN ANDALUSIANS?

              It happens that many Andalusian towns are settlements of Galicians
              (Axarquia) during XV century onwards. There's even French (La
              Luisiana ) or German (La Carolina) in XVIII century. I've heard
              that people in Asturias (close to Galicia) there's lot of blond
              people. But, again, we're mixed.

              >
              > >Well, it's the "is" ending of indoeuropean.
              >
              Lactis, lactis --> milk.
              Joe's horse --> the apostrophe is to replace the "i".
              -is is the desinence of property ( the genitive).

              > > Gonzalo comes from Gundinsalvo.
              >
              > REALLY? I READ IN A GENEOLOGY MESSAGE BOARD THAT THE ORIGINAL NAME
              > WAS "KINSOLVING",

              Correct me if not, but the -ing ending is something _very_
              English, not Germanic nor indoeuropean. I think Gothics have no
              -ing ending words _at all_.

              > WHICH LATER EVOLVED TO "CONSOLVO", AND FINALLY TO

              There're phonetic rules, and the step "i-->o" is much harder
              than "u-->o". Perhaps, kundinsolvus --> kinsolvis

              > "GONZALO". ANYWAYS - IS "GUNDINSALVO" GOTHIC? IS DEFINITELY LOOKS

              Having a look to other Gothic king names :
              Chindasvinto, Rencesvinto, Wamba, Gundemaro, Leovigildo, Sisebuto

              it seems that "usually" they're composed of two words of two
              syllabs , or one word of two syllabs. "kinsolving" or
              "chinsolvingo"... I don't know.


              >
              > > Vandals quickly passed to Africa.
              >
              > TRUE, BUT NOT BEFORE HAVING MANY KIDS WITH HISPANIC WIVES

              They stayed very few years... I think the only thing Vandals
              left us were:
              - the sustantive: "vandals attacking downtown"
              - the name Al-Vandalus (the vandals ) --> Andalusia

              > THE
              > VANDALS ARE ANOTHER TRIBE THAT ALSO HAVE AN UNFAIRLY BAD REPUTATION.

              Yes, they only robbed, raped and kill... Byzantinus killed them
              in North Africa.

              > THEY DID TRY TO FINALLY SETTLE DOWN IN ANDALUSIA WITH THEIR NEW
              > FAMILIES, BUT THE VISIGOTHS KCIKED THEM OUT. IRONIC ISIN'T IT?

              Why ironic? That was their work.

              >
              > NORMANDY WAS BY NO MEANS AN EMPTY PLACE. IT ALREADY HAD A SIGNIFICANT
              > GALLO-ROMAN AND FRANKISH POPULATION. HAD IT BEEN EMPTY - THE VIKINGS
              > WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO PLUNDER.

              They plunder other zones. Normandy was (is) a insane zone of
              swamps and forest, cold and wet, certainly not the best part of
              France.

              >
              > SALUDOS!,
              >
              > <img src="http://www.legends.dm.net/art/cid-sm3.jpg">
              >

              I run "pine". :)

              Regards/Saludos
              Manolo
              www.ctv.es/USERS/irmina /TeEncontreX.html /texpython.htm
              /pyttex.htm /cruo/cruolinux.htm ICQ:77697936 (sirve el ICQ para algo?)

              Fidelity, n.: A virtue peculiar to those who are about to be betrayed.
            • Axeage
              THIS IS THE LAST POST I WILL WRITE CONCERNING THIS ISSUE, IT IS GETTING TOO FAR OFF THE TOPIC OF THIS MESSAGE FORUM... ... ...THIS IS TAKEN FROM RENOWNED
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 18, 2000
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                THIS IS THE LAST POST I WILL WRITE CONCERNING THIS ISSUE, IT IS
                GETTING TOO FAR OFF THE TOPIC OF THIS MESSAGE FORUM...

                In gothic-l@egroups.com, Manuel Gutierrez Algaba <irmina@c...> wrote:

                >> DURING THE MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC PERIODS. OBVIOUSLY, THEIR
                >> PRESENCE WAS STRONGEST IN THE IBERIAN PENINSULA - BUT THEY ALSO
                >> SETTLED IN LARGE NUMBERS IN AQUITANIA (GASCONY), SOUTHERN ENGLAND,
                >>WALES, THE WESTERN COASTS OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND, AND EVEN THE
                >>WESTERN COASTS OF NORWAY...

                > Incredible! Iberians in Norway, first news of it.

                ...THIS IS TAKEN FROM RENOWNED ANTHROPOLOGIST CARLETON COON'S BOOK
                "THE RACES OF EUROPE" CHAPTER XI, SECTION 15 'THE IBERIAN PENINSULA':

                "...During the third millennium B.C., food-producing peoples entered
                Spain from North Africa with swine, sheep, and goats, and with
                barley, emmer, and other plants. The physical type of these invaders
                is well known to us, not only through skeletal remains, but also by
                means of our study of the living peoples of North Africa. Some of
                these invaders remained in Spain and Portugal, where they became the
                basic populations of these countries; others passed northward over
                the Pyrenees into eastern France and Switzerland, while still others
                passed northward as far as Germany, and into the British Isles.

                Toward the beginning of the second millennium B.C., if not earlier,
                these agricultural colonists were reënforced by a people of much
                higher culture, the megalith-building tall Mediterraneans, who came
                by sea, and many of whom went on from Spain as far as the British
                Isles and Scandinavia. Their settlements in Spain were located mostly
                upon the eastern seaboard, and on the northern Atlantic coast,
                particularly in the region of the Bay of Biscay. They are followed by
                other peoples of a general Mediterranean type, but coming from Asia
                Minor, as their exaggerated nasal form indicates. These new invaders
                brought the knowledge of metal with them from the east, and were the
                first of the prospectors to visit this metal-rich peninsula. They in
                turn were followed by round-headed compatriots with the same nasal
                peculiarities, who introduced the Dinaric racial type to western
                Europe... In post-Roman times Germanic invaders, the Goths and
                Vandals, brought a second Nordic infusion to the peninsula..."

                ...IT ALL REALLY DEPENDS ON WHAT IS AN "IBERIAN" IN YOUR VIEW. FOR
                SOME, THE IBERIANS WERE ONLY THE PEOPLE WHO SETTLED ALONG THE EBRO
                RIVER. OTHERS THINK THAT THEY SETTLED ALONG ALL OF THE EASTERN COAST,
                WHILE OTHERS THINK THAT "IBERIAN" MEANT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT SETTLED
                THE IBERIAN PENINSULA BEFORE THE FIRST INDO-EUROPEAN INVASIONS,
                INCLUDING THOSE WHO LIVED ALONG THE NORTHERN COASTS(THE ONES OF WHICH
                SOME REACHED LANDS FARTHER UP NORTH). IF YOU ARE ONE OF THESE - THEN
                YES, YOU CAN SAY THAT "IBERIANS" REACHED AS FAR AS NORWAY...

                >But, again, we're mixed.

                HERE IS MORE FROM COON'S BOOK. SAME CHAPTER...

                "Despite the complex political history of Spain, the living
                population is basically and almost wholly Mediterranean... more than
                one Mediterranean strain is obviously involved. The head form is
                almost everywhere mesocephalic;not even in Andalusia does a Moorish
                or Arab degree of dolichocephaly prevail.

                Two widely observed racial characters serve to differentiate the
                Spaniards from most of the living inhabitants of Arabia and North
                Africa: hair color and nasal profile. In Spain, as a whole, some 29
                per cent of the male population has black hair, some 68 per cent dark
                brown, while traces of blondism are visible in 17 per cent. In most
                of North Africa and Arabia, the black hair is commoner than the dark
                brown. The nasal profiles of some 120,000 Spaniards are convex in 15
                per cent of cases, straight in 72 per cent, and concave in 13 per
                cent. In Arabia and North Africa east of Morocco, the commonest
                profile form is usually convex, and coneaves are very rare. The
                prevalence of these two features - dark brown hair and a straight
                nasal profile, indicates that the bulk of the Spanish population is
                derived from the earlier Mediterranean In-vasions of Mesolithic and
                Neolithic date.

                ...Another useful series is one of 420 adult males from Andalusia,
                representing the most brunet population in Spain, and the one which
                supposedly contains the most Arab and Berber blood.
                Sixty per cent have dark brown hair, 30 per cent black hair. The
                remaining 10 per cent show some evidence of blondism or of rufosity.
                Only one man out of 420 was truly blond. The hair is straight in half
                the series, wavy in a third, and curly in a sixth. Sixty per cent of
                Andalusians have pure brown eyes, of which the majority are dark
                brown, although light brown and mixed-brown irises occur. Mixed-light
                eyes comprise 30 per cent of the series, with a prevalence of
                greenish-brown shades, while 10 per cent of the whole sample
                possesses bluish-gray eyes, on the gray rather than blue side. A
                ratio of 40 per cent of light or incipiently light eyes is higher
                than one expects to find among racially pure Mediterraneans, and
                indicates the infusion of Nordic blood, from both North European and
                Berber sources. Probably if the rest of Spain were studied for eye
                color in the same way, higher ratios of eye blondism would appear
                elsewhere, since most of the green-brown eyes in this sample are
                predominantly dark...


                The racial character of the richer, city-dwelling Moors of Andalusia.
                before the time of their expulsion, may be suggested by a study of
                the almost wholly unmixed descendants of these émigrés in
                Morocco. In
                the city of Sheshawen the old, aristocratic families are descended
                from the former aristocrats of Granada, and have lived endogamously
                since 1492. A little Ruffian blood has crept in, but aside from that
                the She-sbawen families remain an island of Andalusian Moors on
                Moroccan soil. A small, homogeneous sample of these people shows a
                much closer relationship with Spain than with Morocco. They are a
                little longer-headed (194.5 mm.), a little more dolichocephalic (C.
                I. = 76.5) and a little longer-faced (123 mm.) than the Christian
                Andalusians; the bigonial diameter of 103 mm., although wide for
                Spain as a whole, is of Andalusian size. The Sheshawen Moors have
                predominantly dark brown hair and dark brown eyes, with brunet-white
                skin color. In facial morphology, they are fully Andalusian. The
                implication is that the Moors in Spain took more from the population
                of the peninsula, in a racial sense, than they gave. Our earlier
                conclusion that the Andalusians are Mediterraneans of largely
                Neolithic derivation is supported by this unexpected evidence."

                ...SPANIARDS ARE NOT AS MIXED OR SEMITIC AS PEOPLE BELIEVE, BUT YOU
                SEEM TO BE AS CERTAIN THAT THEY(WE) ARE AS MUCH AS I AM THAT THEY(WE)
                ARE NOT. BUT IF YOU INSIST ON IT, FINE...

                > Lactis, lactis --> milk.
                > Joe's horse --> the apostrophe is to replace the "i".
                > -is is the desinence of property ( the genitive).

                OK, I GET IT NOW.

                >> THE VANDALS ARE ANOTHER TRIBE THAT ALSO HAVE AN UNFAIRLY BAD
                REPUTATION.

                > Yes, they only robbed, raped and kill... Byzantinus killed them
                > in North Africa.

                ...WOMEN CAN GET PREGNANT FROM BEING RAPED.

                >> THEY DID TRY TO FINALLY SETTLE DOWN IN ANDALUSIA WITH THEIR NEW
                >> FAMILIES, BUT THE VISIGOTHS KCIKED THEM OUT. IRONIC ISIN'T IT?

                > Why ironic? That was their work.

                ...IRONIC BECAUSE THE VANDALS WERE IN A SIMILAR POSITION TO THE
                GOTHS. THEY WERE LOOKING FOR A PLACE WHERE THEY COULD FINALLY SETTLE
                DOWN, BUT IN THE ROMAN'S EYES - THEY WERE NOTHING BUT PESTS TO GET
                RID OFF. THE ROMANS WERE NOT TOO FOND OF NEITHER THE GOTHS NOR THE
                VANDALS, SO THEY USED ONE AGAINST THE OTHER, FIGUIRING THAT IT WOULD
                BE NO BIG LOSS IF THEY KILLED EACH OTHER.

                CARL,
              • Manuel Gutierrez Algaba
                ... Ok, I m Mediterranean. Take it easy. With some drops of Gothic blood and vocabulary. Very useful post. And mainly it s true, in fact, I had heard something
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 18, 2000
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                  On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, Axeage wrote:
                  >
                  > ...SPANIARDS ARE NOT AS MIXED OR SEMITIC AS PEOPLE BELIEVE, BUT YOU
                  > SEEM TO BE AS CERTAIN THAT THEY(WE) ARE AS MUCH AS I AM THAT THEY(WE)
                  > ARE NOT. BUT IF YOU INSIST ON IT, FINE...

                  Ok, I'm Mediterranean. Take it easy. With some drops of Gothic
                  blood and vocabulary. Very useful post. And mainly it's true, in
                  fact, I had heard something like that but I had almost forgot it.
                  And yes, I'm dark brown haired ( a bit blond when 2-3 years old)
                  and brown eyes.

                  About the noses... Many french people has long noses and convex, like
                  arabs.
                  In fact, I think Germanic people tend to have long noses.

                  Ok, to retake the topic:
                  do you know that "ganar" (to win) and "guardar" ( to guard) are
                  from gothic?

                  wana --> ambition

                  guante --> gauntlet

                  Sometimes, I doubt if the word comes from Frankish or from Gothic.

                  And about surnames:
                  Gotor, Ordoñez.

                  Is there that book ?

                  About Ostrogoth, yes they had strong relationships with Visigoths,
                  even migrations, mainly when Visigoths still rule Tolosa kingdom.

                  And, I read in the Enclopedia that Visigoths were in the west side
                  of Dnieper river and Ostrogoths in the east.

                  I've reread a bit of "Poema de Mio Cid" (btw, Cid comes from arab
                  El-sidi-> the master) looking after gothic constructions/words.

                  guisar (modern ) --> cook, prepare something
                  yantar ? --> eat
                  robar (well, this is fully modern ) --> to rob
                  zaga ? (in football, defense line) --> rearguard
                  lidiar ? (appliable to bullfighting ) --> fight
                  vasallo --> servant
                  galardon (modern too)--> prize , gif, I think that it comes from gualardon
                  barragan ? --> guy
                  guarnicion ? (modern too) --> garrison, troops in charge of something
                  guarnecer

                  Regards/Saludos
                  Manolo
                  www.ctv.es/USERS/irmina /TeEncontreX.html /texpython.htm
                  /pyttex.htm /cruo/cruolinux.htm ICQ:77697936 (sirve el ICQ para algo?)

                  Consultant, n.: An ordinary man a long way from home.
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