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[gothic-l] Re: Sutton Hoo

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  • Keth
    Hello List! About a month ago we were discussing Sutton Hoo and the Goths. In particular we were discussing Vendel style helms and comparing them with the
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 13, 2000
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      Hello List!
      About a month ago we were discussing Sutton Hoo and the Goths.
      In particular we were discussing Vendel style helms and comparing
      them with the Sutton Hoo helm. (and they are quite similar in
      many respects, as people will no doubt agree)

      Now I recently came across a photo of the Sutton Hoo helm,
      and it suddeny strikes me that the iconography is pagan(!)
      That would then have to mean that Sutton Hoo can have nothing
      to do with the Goths, since, as is well known, the Goths were Christian.

      Think about the Chronology:
      4th century: Ulfilas translates the Bible
      End 5th century, Theodoric rules in Ravenna.
      (the copy we have of the Silver Bible must derive from Ravenna)
      Begin 7th century: the Sutton Hoo grave.

      I hope you see my point. How can Sutton Hoo then be linked with
      the Goths of Italy, whose Christian kingdom went down around AD 5oo?
      (and even the Visigoths of Spain, whose kingdom went under with
      the coming of the Arabs in 711 AD were Christians)

      So, can somebody please explain to me what this theory about
      the Sutton Hoo being "Gothic" was all about?

      From what I see, it was probably the grave of king Readwald
      from the 620ies.

      (Readwald, an Anglo-Saxon pagan king???)


      Hope someone will explain.
      Keth


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    • got@yesbox.net
      ket-@online.no (keth) wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1812 Hello! ... I remember exemples of eagles in cloisonné from
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 13, 2000
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        ket-@... (keth) wrote:
        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1812
        Hello!
        > About a month ago we were discussing Sutton Hoo and the Goths.
        > In particular we were discussing Vendel style helms and comparing
        > them with the Sutton Hoo helm. (and they are quite similar in
        > many respects, as people will no doubt agree)

        I remember exemples of eagles in cloisonné from visigothic Spain and
        iron-raven decorations on shields from grave-fields at the Black sea.
        Tge goths seem to continue some of their pagan art-traditions after
        their christening.
        The eagles are those feeding on the fallen at the battle-field and the
        ravens too, but they are also the messengers of Odin.

        > Now I recently came across a photo of the Sutton Hoo helm,
        > and it suddeny strikes me that the iconography is pagan(!)
        > That would then have to mean that Sutton Hoo can have nothing
        > to do with the Goths, since, as is well known, the Goths were
        Christian.

        > Think about the Chronology:
        > 4th century: Ulfilas translates the Bible
        > End 5th century, Theodoric rules in Ravenna.
        > (the copy we have of the Silver Bible must derive from Ravenna)
        > Begin 7th century: the Sutton Hoo grave.
        >
        > I hope you see my point. How can Sutton Hoo then be linked with
        > the Goths of Italy, whose Christian kingdom went down around AD 5oo?
        > (and even the Visigoths of Spain, whose kingdom went under with
        > the coming of the Arabs in 711 AD were Christians)
        >
        > So, can somebody please explain to me what this theory about
        > the Sutton Hoo being "Gothic" was all about?

        Read more about it on:
        http://www.gotland.luma.com

        It was also the question about the roman silver-vessels. They were
        supposed to have been made in the 600c in the ostrogothic empire. This
        was the foundation for a theory that they came with immigrating
        ostrogoths. I think at least that it is possible that some ostrogoths
        after the breakdown of their empire went Anglo-Saxon England to offer
        their services as craftsmen etc. The best way to ensure a warm welcome
        was to bring royal gifts. But as far as I know it was alsoa roman
        custom to give prestigious items to seal pacts and treatys.

        > From what I see, it was probably the grave of king Readwald
        > from the 620ies.
        >
        > (Readwald, an Anglo-Saxon pagan king???)



        Gutwulfs
      • Tim O'Neill
        go-@yesbox.net wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1814 ... Mainly in respect to their decoration. Their design and
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 13, 2000
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          go-@... wrote:
          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1814
          > ket-@... (keth) wrote:
          > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1812
          > Hello!
          > > About a month ago we were discussing Sutton Hoo and the Goths.
          > > In particular we were discussing Vendel style helms and comparing
          > > them with the Sutton Hoo helm. (and they are quite similar in
          > > many respects, as people will no doubt agree)

          Mainly in respect to their decoration. Their design and construction
          is quite different.

          > I remember exemples of eagles in cloisonné from visigothic Spain and
          > iron-raven decorations on shields from grave-fields at the Black sea.
          > Tge goths seem to continue some of their pagan art-traditions after
          > their christening.
          > The eagles are those feeding on the fallen at the battle-field and the
          > ravens too, but they are also the messengers of Odin.

          The eagle motif brooches so popular amongst the Goths and the cloisonne
          technique used to seem to have been adopted by them from their steppe
          neighbours in the Ukraine rather than belonging to a native Germanic
          artistic tradition. What the eagle meant to them is an open question
          though - it could have had a Germanic pagan association or it could
          just have been a motif which was fashionable.

          > > Now I recently came across a photo of the Sutton Hoo helm,
          > > and it suddeny strikes me that the iconography is pagan(!)
          > > That would then have to mean that Sutton Hoo can have nothing
          > > to do with the Goths, since, as is well known, the Goths were
          > Christian.
          [snip]
          > > I hope you see my point. How can Sutton Hoo then be linked with
          > > the Goths of Italy, whose Christian kingdom went down around AD 5oo?
          > > (and even the Visigoths of Spain, whose kingdom went under with
          > > the coming of the Arabs in 711 AD were Christians)

          It's not just the iconography which can be seen as being pagan,
          it's the whole burial - the very act of interring people with
          extensive grave goods was pagan. It was long believed that the
          grave didn't contain a body and that it was a pagan cenotaph to
          the Christian convert Raedwald. It's now thought that Raedwald
          was buried there, in full pagan style, but with a few items to
          indicate his Christian status (eg the Paul/Saul spoons)

          There is, as I've argued here before, nothing to link Sutton Hoo
          with the Goths. And the fact that it is (in some sense) a pagan-style
          grave does show that this can't have been a Gothic burial - not
          only had the Goths been devout Arians for centuries before this
          period but even when they were pagans they *never* buried their
          dead with weapons. Sutton Hoo contains a sword, several spears
          and a hammer-axe.

          > > So, can somebody please explain to me what this theory about
          > > the Sutton Hoo being "Gothic" was all about?
          >
          > Read more about it on:
          > http://www.gotland.luma.com

          And keep in mind that no researcher on Sutton Hoo since its
          excavation in 1939 has ever linked it, or any other site in
          England, to the Goths.

          > It was also the question about the roman silver-vessels. They were
          > supposed to have been made in the 600c in the ostrogothic empire. This
          > was the foundation for a theory that they came with immigrating
          > ostrogoths.

          The Sutton Hoo find contains grave goods from several parts of
          Europe and a number of different periods. We should assume trade
          got them there before we start thinking of immigrants, especially
          in the context of a total absence of any collaborating evidence for
          any Goths getting anywhere near Britain. A good sense of what is
          *probable* should guide the analysis of any theory.

          >I think at least that it is possible that some ostrogoths
          > after the breakdown of their empire went Anglo-Saxon England to offer
          > their services as craftsmen etc. The best way to ensure a warm welcome
          > was to bring royal gifts. But as far as I know it was alsoa roman
          > custom to give prestigious items to seal pacts and treatys.

          It's *possible* that they sailed to Greenland and on to America
          as well. Or set out overland and ended up in China. 'Possible'
          isn't really enough - we have to take *probability* into account.
          In the absence of any evidence they went to Britain, we have to
          assume they did not.
          Cheers to you both,

          Tim O'Neill
          Tasmanian Devil
        • Keth
          Hello Gutwulfs and Tim! Thank you both for your replies! ... That would perhaps be like the German (double-headed) eagle? It is still used. ... But do you
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 14, 2000
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            Hello Gutwulfs and Tim!
            Thank you both for your replies!

            >ket-@... (keth) wrote:
            >original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1812
            >Hello!
            >> About a month ago we were discussing Sutton Hoo and the Goths.
            >> In particular we were discussing Vendel style helms and comparing
            >> them with the Sutton Hoo helm. (and they are quite similar in
            >> many respects, as people will no doubt agree)
            >
            >I remember exemples of eagles in cloisonné from visigothic Spain and
            >iron-raven decorations on shields from grave-fields at the Black sea.
            >Tge goths seem to continue some of their pagan art-traditions after
            >their christening.

            That would perhaps be like the German (double-headed) eagle?
            It is still used.


            >The eagles are those feeding on the fallen at the battle-field and the
            >ravens too, but they are also the messengers of Odin.

            But do you think the Italian ostrogoths used any Odin symbols?
            Alarik may still have. But after that they were Christians.
            (or so I thought - I mean all those frescos of Jesus and his disciples
            in Ravenna, I think they are still there. Or maybe they were mozaics.
            I have forgotten the details. I just know they are famous.
            But maybe they weren't due to the Goths?)
            Theodoric's mausoleum is still there I think.
            BTW - now that we are talking about it --
            Does anybody know if the name "Ravenna" is Latin?
            Or is it perhaps a Gothic name? Just curious.



            >> Now I recently came across a photo of the Sutton Hoo helm,
            >> and it suddeny strikes me that the iconography is pagan(!)
            >> That would then have to mean that Sutton Hoo can have nothing
            >> to do with the Goths, since, as is well known, the Goths were
            >Christian.
            >
            >> Think about the Chronology:
            >> 4th century: Ulfilas translates the Bible
            >> End 5th century, Theodoric rules in Ravenna.
            >> (the copy we have of the Silver Bible must derive from Ravenna)
            >> Begin 7th century: the Sutton Hoo grave.
            >>
            >> I hope you see my point. How can Sutton Hoo then be linked with
            >> the Goths of Italy, whose Christian kingdom went down around AD 5oo?
            >> (and even the Visigoths of Spain, whose kingdom went under with
            >> the coming of the Arabs in 711 AD were Christians)
            >>
            >> So, can somebody please explain to me what this theory about
            >> the Sutton Hoo being "Gothic" was all about?
            >
            >Read more about it on:
            >http://www.gotland.luma.com

            I think I read those articles. But I have a slow web broser
            and so I don't read web pages too often. So it may have been a while
            ago.


            >It was also the question about the roman silver-vessels. They were
            >supposed to have been made in the 600c in the ostrogothic empire. This

            But if Thodoric's empire went down in - when was it - 528???
            How can Readwald have gotten ostrogothic silver ware, if the
            ostrogoths weren't around any longer - not for a hundred years.
            Maybe they mean Langobard. After the Ostrogoths it was the
            Langobards who took over in Italy. But why would people "call"
            it Gothic if it _was_ Langobard - and a hundred years had gone by.
            That seems silly.


            >was the foundation for a theory that they came with immigrating
            >ostrogoths. I think at least that it is possible that some ostrogoths
            >after the breakdown of their empire went Anglo-Saxon England to offer
            >their services as craftsmen etc. The best way to ensure a warm welcome
            >was to bring royal gifts. But as far as I know it was alsoa roman
            >custom to give prestigious items to seal pacts and treatys.

            That is true. The Ostrogoths had many good craftsmen.
            But they could also have started working for the Lombards.
            No need to go to England it seems. There was probably enough
            work in Italy. And I don't think they killed the craftsmen.
            What language did the Lombards speak? Wasn't it pretty much
            the same as Gothic?


            >> From what I see, it was probably the grave of king Readwald
            >> from the 620ies.
            >>
            >> (Readwald, an Anglo-Saxon pagan king???)

            It seems to me that there were _a_lot_ of other Germanic peoples
            besides the Goths in Europe. And they all used decorative items
            of the same artistic style. I wonder if this was not what was
            called "Tiersti" (Germanische Tierstil)
            Does any one know of a good book about Germanic art?

            Thanks!
            Keth
          • got@yesbox.net
            ket-@online.no (keth) wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1821 Hello Keth and Tim! Sorry it took me so long. ... the ... The
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 17, 2000
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              ket-@... (keth) wrote:
              original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1821

              Hello Keth and Tim!

              Sorry it took me so long.

              > >> About a month ago we were discussing Sutton Hoo and the Goths.
              > >> In particular we were discussing Vendel style helms and comparing
              > >> them with the Sutton Hoo helm. (and they are quite similar in
              > >> many respects, as people will no doubt agree)
              > >
              > >I remember exemples of eagles in cloisonné from visigothic Spain and
              > >iron-raven decorations on shields from grave-fields at the Black sea.
              > >Tge goths seem to continue some of their pagan art-traditions after
              > >their christening.

              > That would perhaps be like the German (double-headed) eagle?
              > It is still used.
              >
              >
              > >The eagles are those feeding on the fallen at the battle-field and
              the
              > >ravens too, but they are also the messengers of Odin.

              The believe or the magic around the raven must be of old date. I
              remember names like HrabinhariaR something, but with the "Hrabin"
              anyway. I think that they were regarded to be old age 2-300 AD. Do
              anybody know about names with "raven" in them. A messenger of the gods?
              HarabanaR is mentioned on one of the "erilaR" inscriptions, which means
              "raven"? The raven-tradition is probably old then?

              > But do you think the Italian ostrogoths used any Odin symbols?
              > Alarik may still have. But after that they were Christians.
              > (or so I thought - I mean all those frescos of Jesus and his disciples
              > in Ravenna, I think they are still there. Or maybe they were mozaics.
              > I have forgotten the details. I just know they are famous.
              > But maybe they weren't due to the Goths?)
              > Theodoric's mausoleum is still there I think.
              > BTW - now that we are talking about it --
              > Does anybody know if the name "Ravenna" is Latin?
              > Or is it perhaps a Gothic name? Just curious.
              >
              >
              >
              > >> Now I recently came across a photo of the Sutton Hoo helm,
              > >> and it suddeny strikes me that the iconography is pagan(!)
              > >> That would then have to mean that Sutton Hoo can have nothing
              > >> to do with the Goths, since, as is well known, the Goths were
              > >Christian.
              > >
              > >> Think about the Chronology:
              > >> 4th century: Ulfilas translates the Bible
              > >> End 5th century, Theodoric rules in Ravenna.
              > >> (the copy we have of the Silver Bible must derive from Ravenna)
              > >> Begin 7th century: the Sutton Hoo grave.
              > >>
              > >> I hope you see my point. How can Sutton Hoo then be linked with
              > >> the Goths of Italy, whose Christian kingdom went down around AD
              5oo?
              > >> (and even the Visigoths of Spain, whose kingdom went under with
              > >> the coming of the Arabs in 711 AD were Christians)
              > >>
              > >> So, can somebody please explain to me what this theory about
              > >> the Sutton Hoo being "Gothic" was all about?
              > >
              > >Read more about it on:
              > >http://www.gotland.luma.com
              > >It was also the question about the roman silver-vessels. They were
              > >supposed to have been made in the 600c in the ostrogothic empire.
              This
              >
              >
              > The best way to ensure a warm welcome
              > was to bring royal gifts. But as far as I know it was alsoa roman
              > custom to give prestigious items to seal pacts and treatys.

              The ostrogoths, if some of them emigrated, probably went to visigothic
              Spain. The understod the culture, they knew the language. There is
              reason to believe that they were welcome. When the franks attacked the
              visigoths a couple of years earlier, and pushed them out akvitania in
              France, the ostrogoths reacted and pushed them out again. After this
              the ostrogoths just gave it back to their tribal brothers witout
              conditions. So there is all the reason to believe their relationship
              was good.

              > What language did the Lombards speak? Wasn't it pretty much
              > the same as Gothic?
              > It seems to me that there were _a_lot_ of other Germanic peoples
              > besides the Goths in Europe. And they all used decorative items
              > of the same artistic style. I wonder if this was not what was
              > called "Tiersti" (Germanische Tierstil)
              > Does any one know of a good book about Germanic art?


              Gutwulfs
            • got@yesbox.net
              tim o neill wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1817 ... Godana dag, Tim jah Keth jah allaim! ... sea.
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 18, 2000
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                "tim o'neill" <scath-@...> wrote:
                original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1817
                > go-@... wrote:
                > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1814
                > > ket-@... (keth) wrote:
                > > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1812
                Godana dag, Tim jah Keth jah allaim!

                > > > About a month ago we were discussing Sutton Hoo and the Goths.
                > > > In particular we were discussing Vendel style helms and comparing
                > > > them with the Sutton Hoo helm. (and they are quite similar in
                > > > many respects, as people will no doubt agree)
                >
                > Mainly in respect to their decoration. Their design and construction
                > is quite different.
                >
                > > I remember exemples of eagles in cloisonné from visigothic Spain and
                > > iron-raven decorations on shields from grave-fields at the Black
                sea.
                > > Tge goths seem to continue some of their pagan art-traditions after
                > > their christening.
                > > The eagles are those feeding on the fallen at the battle-field and
                the
                > > ravens too, but they are also the messengers of Odin.
                >
                > The eagle motif brooches so popular amongst the Goths and the
                cloisonne
                > technique used to seem to have been adopted by them from their steppe
                > neighbours in the Ukraine rather than belonging to a native Germanic
                > artistic tradition. What the eagle meant to them is an open question
                > though - it could have had a Germanic pagan association or it could
                > just have been a motif which was fashionable.

                The fascination with eagles and ravens seems to be old among the
                teutons.
                It may have been influenced by roman art and the legionars eagles at
                the borders of the empire. Different names with the prefix "arn" have
                been used through the 600c and were common all along the viking-age.
                "Arnstein", "Arnfast", "Arnmund" and "Arnulf" a name also common in
                Visigothic Spain(now known as Arnulfo). On a picture stone in Spain
                from 7-800c you can find the name "Arnfrids"(eaglepeace). In Beowulf
                the nesting "divine" bird is regarded important enough to name an area
                after it, "Aernanes". So at least in the 600-700c the bird is regarded
                in western and northern Europe with respect and fear(?). Probably with
                the "asa-believe", they became more important and regarded as holy.
                They might also represent a prestigious "totem", and being connected
                with a proto-germanic believe in "hamingias" or "fylgias",
                protection-spirits that protects you and warns you of your near death
                and taking shape of different animals. An eagle was probably a totem
                prefered by kings and nobels and thus becoming attractive as a motive
                for others. A gotlandic picture-stone from the 8-900c depicts a
                sacrifice of a huge bird, and it must be an eagle. The fascination with
                eagles might have started with the goths and other teutons along the
                roman border, but of course we can´t prove that.

                > > > Now I recently came across a photo of the Sutton Hoo helm,
                > > > and it suddeny strikes me that the iconography is pagan(!)
                > > > That would then have to mean that Sutton Hoo can have nothing
                > > > to do with the Goths, since, as is well known, the Goths were
                > > Christian.
                > [snip]
                > > > I hope you see my point. How can Sutton Hoo then be linked with
                > > > the Goths of Italy, whose Christian kingdom went down around AD
                5oo?
                > > > (and even the Visigoths of Spain, whose kingdom went under with
                > > > the coming of the Arabs in 711 AD were Christians)
                >
                > It's not just the iconography which can be seen as being pagan,
                > it's the whole burial - the very act of interring people with
                > extensive grave goods was pagan. It was long believed that the
                > grave didn't contain a body and that it was a pagan cenotaph to
                > the Christian convert Raedwald. It's now thought that Raedwald
                > was buried there, in full pagan style, but with a few items to
                > indicate his Christian status (eg the Paul/Saul spoons)
                >
                > There is, as I've argued here before, nothing to link Sutton Hoo
                > with the Goths. And the fact that it is (in some sense) a pagan-style
                > grave does show that this can't have been a Gothic burial - not
                > only had the Goths been devout Arians for centuries before this
                > period but even when they were pagans they *never* buried their
                > dead with weapons. Sutton Hoo contains a sword, several spears
                > and a hammer-axe.
                >
                > > > So, can somebody please explain to me what this theory about
                > > > the Sutton Hoo being "Gothic" was all about?
                > >
                > > Read more about it on:
                > > http://www.gotland.luma.com
                >
                > And keep in mind that no researcher on Sutton Hoo since its
                > excavation in 1939 has ever linked it, or any other site in
                > England, to the Goths.

                Since Keth asked about the theory, I think that I have to help him find
                the source of the theory. I just put up the link, but it doesn´t mean
                that I agree with it. But since Tore had some good points about the
                Mälar valley, "svear" and Sigtuna, I think that his work deserves a
                study.

                > > It was also the question about the roman silver-vessels. They were
                > > supposed to have been made in the 600c in the ostrogothic empire.
                This
                > > was the foundation for a theory that they came with immigrating
                > > ostrogoths.
                >
                > The Sutton Hoo find contains grave goods from several parts of
                > Europe and a number of different periods. We should assume trade
                > got them there before we start thinking of immigrants, especially
                > in the context of a total absence of any collaborating evidence for
                > any Goths getting anywhere near Britain. A good sense of what is
                > *probable* should guide the analysis of any theory.
                >
                > >I think at least that it is possible that some ostrogoths
                > > after the breakdown of their empire went Anglo-Saxon England to
                offer
                > > their services as craftsmen etc. The best way to ensure a warm
                welcome
                > > was to bring royal gifts. But as far as I know it was also a roman
                > > custom to give prestigious items to seal pacts and treatys.

                I know that there is no grave-artefacts to support that the goths have
                ever settled there. So I am not a believer in the theory that because
                of an antique source mentioning emigrating ostrogoths means that they
                must have gone to England. So I also mentioned that it was a roman
                custome to give away
                silver-ware, that means that any roman in "high places", could have
                given them that, or it could have come with trade. I just wanted to
                mention the possibility of ostrogoths going to England as craftsmen.
                There is no proof that they did, but I anyway wants to keep an open
                mind. And so far I have been quite realistic, and I usually manage to
                back it up with links, pictures and sources, since I think that
                computer-media is ideal for this.

                > It's *possible* that they sailed to Greenland and on to America
                > as well. Or set out overland and ended up in China. 'Possible'
                > isn't really enough - we have to take *probability* into account.
                > In the absence of any evidence they went to Britain, we have to
                > assume they did not.


                Cheers and "skål" to you Tim and Keth!



                Gutwulfs
                Håkan Liljeberg
              • Sollers
                Hi all! Talk about chance and serendipity - I come back online after a month and a half of computer deprivation/withdrawal symptoms and head of the list is
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 19, 2000
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                  Hi all!

                  Talk about chance and serendipity - I come back online after a month and a
                  half of computer deprivation/withdrawal symptoms and head of the list is
                  something I have just been thinking about over the last few weeks.

                  Ravenna first: Roman town, Roman name, though not necessarily Latin - even
                  Modern Italian dialects are not all derived from Latin, rather from cousins.

                  The Sutton Hoo helm: it and the Vendel helms have what turns out to be a
                  very interesting pedigree - they apparently derive from Roman cavalry
                  helmets (yes, I've seen pictures of the earlier links in the chain, and the
                  relationship is clear). The shoulder-clasps are also based on standard Roman
                  official pattern. Recent studies also suggest that Germanic kingship was
                  defined, brought into focus, and possibly even brought into being by the
                  relationship with the Roman empire; that this was certainly the case for
                  Gundobad, Alaric II, Theuderic and Clovis and quite possibly was so for
                  others. THINK HARD ABOUT IT before you scream in anguish; I did. It's also
                  worth remembering that whatever the chronicles etc may say, there had been
                  what Myres reckons were almost certainly Angles in Britannia Secunda for a
                  very long time; certainly since the fourth century, and possibly even
                  earlier. The main give-away is the "Romano-Saxon" pottery; officials,
                  whether Roman or Germanic, were wearing the same sort of brooches and belt
                  buckles as insignia of rank, but the brooches in the North-East tie in
                  pretty closely with those just across the North Sea.

                  Birds of prey: I don't think the Gothic pendants are eagles, or any of the
                  Sutton Hoo birds. The feeling I am getting is this kind of pattern:

                  Romans: eagle
                  Huns: falcon (takes on prey bigger than itself)
                  Germans, Goths (note that in the 5th century they were differentiated -
                  Goths were Goths and Vandals were Goths but Franks were Germans and Saxons
                  were Germans., and I don't know what Burgundians were) and also Celts:
                  ravens. I really don't think we've got enough evidence to do more than
                  guess about Odin, but they are the main carrion bird in much of Northern
                  Europe. The strong Celtic tie-in is via stories like the "Dream of
                  Rhonabwy" and also the name/title "Brennus" and the ruler with mythological
                  traits in the first of the Four Branches, Bendigeidfran ("Bran the Blessed"
                  or "Blessed Raven")

                  BTW, does anyone have a sensible suggestion about the coins at Sutton Hoo?
                  I'm not happy with the "paying the Ferryman" for the whole crew idea, as by
                  the time the Saxons (or Angles or whatever) took up burial, the Romans had
                  stopped putting coins in burials several centuries previously.

                  I imagine this has all muddied the water nicely. Have fun.
                • got@yesbox.net
                  sollers wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1825 Hi Sollers, Keth, Bertil and all! It
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 21, 2000
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                    "sollers" <soller-@...> wrote:
                    original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1825

                    Hi Sollers, Keth, Bertil and all!

                    It is mentioned here that the master who made this Vendelhelmet also
                    must have made the Sutton Hoo helmet! A brave conclusion, but a little
                    too brave maybe.
                    The trade-route went from the "Svea" area through Vänern lake to
                    "Götaälv", and then to the coast and the North sea. The dane Saxo also
                    says that Västergötland had a hard time to defend themselves against
                    the "svea", attacks done to secure the trade rout?


                    http://www.vendelinfo.se/viking/vendeltid.htm

                    > The Sutton Hoo helmet: it and the Vendel helms have what turns out to
                    be a
                    > very interesting pedigree - they apparently derive from Roman cavalry
                    > helmets (yes, I've seen pictures of the earlier links in the chain,
                    and the
                    > relationship is clear). The shoulder-clasps are also based on
                    standard Roman
                    > official pattern. Whether Roman or Germanic, were wearing the same
                    sort of brooches and belt
                    > buckles as insignia of rank, but the brooches in the North-East tie in
                    > pretty closely with those just across the North Sea.

                    Pretty interesting site that confirms your theory?:
                    http://www.realtime.net/~gunnora/beasts.htm

                    > > Romans: eagle
                    > Huns: falcon (takes on prey bigger than itself)
                    > Germans, Goths (note that in the 5th century they were differentiated
                    -
                    > Goths were Goths and Vandals were Goths but Franks were Germans and
                    Saxons
                    > were Germans., and I don't know what Burgundians were) and also Celts:
                    > ravens. I really don't think we've got enough evidence to do more
                    than
                    > guess about Odin, but they are the main carrion bird in much of
                    Northern
                    > Europe. The strong Celtic tie-in is via stories like the "Dream of
                    > Rhonabwy" and also the name/title "Brennus" and the ruler with
                    mythological
                    > traits in the first of the Four Branches, Bendigeidfran ("Bran the
                    Blessed"
                    > or "Blessed Raven")

                    Some more interesting sites I´ve found:
                    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/8771/spangenhelms.html
                    http://res3.geocities.com/Athens/2471/helmet.html

                    > BTW, does anyone have a sensible suggestion about the coins at Sutton
                    Hoo?
                    > I'm not happy with the "paying the Ferryman" for the whole crew idea,
                    as by
                    > the time the Saxons (or Angles or whatever) took up burial, the
                    Romans had
                    > stopped putting coins in burials several centuries previously.

                    I think that the Anglo-Saxons might have been affected by a local roman
                    custom since many of his administrators were probably descending from
                    roman subjugates. Readwald was christian and could also have been
                    influenced by munks.


                    Gutwulfs
                  • Keth
                    Hej Gutwulfs! ... The Vandals were not Goths. They were once neighbors to the Goths, though. Buit they have a different history. The Goths and Vandals have
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 23, 2000
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                      Hej Gutwulfs!

                      >"sollers" <soller-@...> wrote:
                      >original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1825
                      >
                      >Hi Sollers, Keth, Bertil and all!
                      >
                      >It is mentioned here that the master who made this Vendelhelmet also
                      >must have made the Sutton Hoo helmet! A brave conclusion, but a little
                      >too brave maybe.
                      >The trade-route went from the "Svea" area through Vänern lake to
                      >"Götaälv", and then to the coast and the North sea. The dane Saxo also
                      >says that Västergötland had a hard time to defend themselves against
                      >the "svea", attacks done to secure the trade rout?
                      >
                      >
                      >http://www.vendelinfo.se/viking/vendeltid.htm
                      >
                      >> The Sutton Hoo helmet: it and the Vendel helms have what turns out to
                      >be a
                      >> very interesting pedigree - they apparently derive from Roman cavalry
                      >> helmets (yes, I've seen pictures of the earlier links in the chain,
                      >and the
                      >> relationship is clear). The shoulder-clasps are also based on
                      >standard Roman
                      >> official pattern. Whether Roman or Germanic, were wearing the same
                      >sort of brooches and belt
                      >> buckles as insignia of rank, but the brooches in the North-East tie in
                      >> pretty closely with those just across the North Sea.
                      >
                      >Pretty interesting site that confirms your theory?:
                      >http://www.realtime.net/~gunnora/beasts.htm
                      >
                      >> > Romans: eagle
                      >> Huns: falcon (takes on prey bigger than itself)
                      >> Germans, Goths (note that in the 5th century they were differentiated
                      >-
                      >> Goths were Goths and Vandals were Goths but Franks were Germans and

                      The Vandals were not Goths.
                      They were once neighbors to the Goths, though. Buit they have a different
                      history.
                      The Goths and Vandals have been called 'Ostgermanen'.
                      The Franks and Saxons have been called 'Westgermanen'.
                      But they were all different (independent) peoples.


                      >Saxons
                      >> were Germans., and I don't know what Burgundians were) and also Celts:
                      >> ravens. I really don't think we've got enough evidence to do more
                      >than
                      >> guess about Odin, but they are the main carrion bird in much of
                      >Northern
                      >> Europe. The strong Celtic tie-in is via stories like the "Dream of
                      >> Rhonabwy" and also the name/title "Brennus" and the ruler with
                      >mythological
                      >> traits in the first of the Four Branches, Bendigeidfran ("Bran the
                      >Blessed"
                      >> or "Blessed Raven")
                      >
                      >Some more interesting sites I´ve found:
                      >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/8771/spangenhelms.html
                      >http://res3.geocities.com/Athens/2471/helmet.html
                      >
                      >> BTW, does anyone have a sensible suggestion about the coins at Sutton
                      >Hoo?
                      >> I'm not happy with the "paying the Ferryman" for the whole crew idea,
                      >as by
                      >> the time the Saxons (or Angles or whatever) took up burial, the
                      >Romans had
                      >> stopped putting coins in burials several centuries previously.
                      >
                      >I think that the Anglo-Saxons might have been affected by a local roman
                      >custom since many of his administrators were probably descending from
                      >roman subjugates. Readwald was christian and could also have been
                      >influenced by munks.

                      You mean they were affected by Roman customs after they had settled in Britain?
                      From Readwalds grave goods, you wouldn't say he is a Christian.
                      Maybe the Monks claimed him for their Faith, because it was important
                      for them to say that he had been a Christian.
                      But the burial was not Christain.

                      Back to the helm:
                      The Sutton Hoo and Vendel helm are very similar.
                      e.g. the striped metal eyebrows.
                      The stripes are diagonal on both helms and have the same
                      direction (up and out).
                      Also the "serpent" over the top of the helm.
                      Such a serpent must have had some kind of symbolic meaning,
                      since you find it in many many examples of early Germanic art.
                      Also, the warriors on the Sutton Hoo helm placques wear
                      the horned helmets, where the two horns run out into
                      birds heads. This motif too is very prominent in much of
                      Germanic art. The same motif is also found on Swedish helm placques.

                      Keth
                    • Sollers
                      Vandals and Goths: sorry, I got too cryptic there. What I meant was, as far as the Romans were concerned, Vandals were Goths because they used horses and were
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 23, 2000
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                        Vandals and Goths: sorry, I got too cryptic there. What I meant was, as far
                        as the Romans were concerned, Vandals were Goths because they used horses
                        and were relatively civilised (at any rate compared with Franks and
                        Saxons)>.
                        >
                        >>I think that the Anglo-Saxons might have been affected by a local roman
                        >>custom since many of his administrators were probably descending from
                        >>roman subjugates. Readwald was christian and could also have been
                        >>influenced by munks.

                        By Readwald's time the Roman/sub-Roman population in Britain had stopped
                        using coins in burials for over 2 centuries, and the same was true for the
                        Continent; why on earth should his people have picked up an obsolete custom?
                        There was no other sign of Roman burial customs, either pagan or Christian

                        >Back to the helm:
                        >The Sutton Hoo and Vendel helm are very similar.
                        >e.g. the striped metal eyebrows.
                        >The stripes are diagonal on both helms and have the same
                        >direction (up and out).
                        >Also the "serpent" over the top of the helm.
                        >Such a serpent must have had some kind of symbolic meaning,
                        >since you find it in many many examples of early Germanic art.
                        >Also, the warriors on the Sutton Hoo helm placques wear
                        >the horned helmets, where the two horns run out into
                        >birds heads. This motif too is very prominent in much of
                        >Germanic art. The same motif is also found on Swedish helm placques.

                        The decorative motifs are the only thing that differentiates the Sutton Hoo
                        helmet etc from Roman cavalry; the shape and layout is the same, and there
                        is a lot of abstract interwoven lines in the decoration; there are striped
                        eyebrows on the Roman helmets, too, and the nosepieces are well on the way
                        to a very similar pattern

                        Sollers



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                      • Keth
                        ... I should like to see a picture of the roman cavalry helmet that you have in mind. (I am sure there were quite a few roman helm models through 6 or more
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 23, 2000
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                          Sollers wrote:

                          >The decorative motifs are the only thing that differentiates the Sutton Hoo
                          >helmet etc from Roman cavalry; the shape and layout is the same, and there
                          >is a lot of abstract interwoven lines in the decoration; there are striped
                          >eyebrows on the Roman helmets, too, and the nosepieces are well on the way
                          >to a very similar pattern
                          >
                          I should like to see a picture of the roman cavalry helmet that you
                          have in mind. (I am sure there were quite a few roman helm models
                          through 6 or more centuries)

                          OF course, thechnology is exported. The russian Lada looked
                          just like a western car. (I forget which one)
                          Korean cars look just like japanese cars, etc
                          Whatever is good technology gets to be copied.

                          What I am talking about is the symbols.
                          The Vendel/Sutton Hoo crests are not "patterns".
                          They are symbolic representations of some kind of
                          serpent or dragon or whatever it represents.

                          You can follow this and related symbols through
                          many centuries of germanic art. (another is the S-fibula)

                          I looked at a book that dealt with gothic art. But it was all
                          christian, about saints and angels. This art had been photographed
                          in italy and spain.

                          The Sutton Hoo/Vendel art is interesting, because it may very
                          well "identify". Just like the american eagle shows american
                          influence, and the german eagle shows german influence, etc
                          (or the red star for the former soviet union, another example,
                          the cresent moon for the muslims....)

                          Keth
                        • Tim O'Neill
                          ... The Goths and Vandals were both East Germanic speakers, but the Vandals weren t Goths. They didn t identify themselves as such and the Romans recognised
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 24, 2000
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                            Sollers wrote:
                            >
                            > Vandals and Goths: sorry, I got too cryptic there. What I meant was, as far
                            > as the Romans were concerned, Vandals were Goths because they used horses
                            > and were relatively civilised (at any rate compared with Franks and
                            > Saxons)>.

                            The Goths and Vandals were both East Germanic speakers, but the Vandals
                            weren't Goths. They didn't identify themselves as such and the Romans
                            recognised them as a quite separate people.

                            > The decorative motifs are the only thing that differentiates the Sutton Hoo
                            > helmet etc from Roman cavalry; the shape and layout is the same, and there
                            > is a lot of abstract interwoven lines in the decoration; there are striped
                            > eyebrows on the Roman helmets, too, and the nosepieces are well on the way
                            > to a very similar pattern

                            I agree that the SH helm is most probably descended from a Roman cavalry
                            archetype, but there are no surviving Roman helmets which match the
                            SH helm's design. The Der el-Medinah Helm has cheekplates which are a
                            similar shape, there are many similar (but not identical) neck plates
                            and quite a few Roman cavalry and equestrian sports helms have similar
                            face plates (though they tend to be much more realistic than the stylised
                            SH example), but no Roman helm is the same in overall design.

                            Likewise, the construction of the SH helm is very different to Roman
                            examples. It's skull cap is beaten from a single piece of metal
                            while late Roman cavalry helms were made of two half-hemispheres
                            joined by a ridge piece. Earlier Roman helms had a single piece
                            skull, but that was made as a spun dome - a metals technology which
                            seems to have been lost sometime in the third century and was well
                            beyond the skills or equipment of the average Saxon smith.

                            The Sutton Hoo helm is *similar* in design to late Roman
                            examples just as it is *similar* in decoration to southern Swedish
                            examples. But it is distinctive in many ways and is most
                            probably a native English piece, decorated in a common north
                            Germanic style and constructed according to principles and designs
                            which could be traced to the late Roman and sub-Roman periods
                            in Britain.
                            Cheers,

                            Tim O'Neill
                            Tasmanian Devil
                          • Keth
                            ... Hi Tim! I agree with what you wrote here. Note that I have underlined the phrase : north Germanic style . The Anglo Saxons did of course belong to the
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 24, 2000
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                              Tim O'Neill wrote:
                              >
                              >The Sutton Hoo helm is *similar* in design to late Roman
                              >examples just as it is *similar* in decoration to southern Swedish
                              >examples. But it is distinctive in many ways and is most
                              >probably a native English piece, decorated in a common north
                              ^^^^^
                              >Germanic style and constructed according to principles and designs
                              ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
                              >which could be traced to the late Roman and sub-Roman periods
                              >in Britain.

                              Hi Tim!

                              I agree with what you wrote here. Note that I have underlined the
                              phrase : "north Germanic style".

                              The Anglo Saxons did of course belong to the west Germanic division
                              of the Germanic world. The question then is "how did a north Germanic
                              style*) end up among the funerary equipment of a west Germanic king?"

                              Cheers,
                              Keth



                              *)As far as I know, the only other helms of that style that were found,
                              were Swedish Vendel helms. But some of the same iconography was found
                              on the Gallehus horns. The iconography therefore points to Sweden and
                              Jutland. Perhaps Jutland is not such a bad guess, since the Anglo-Saxons
                              are known to have come from that area some centuries earlier.
                              Perhaps they still traded with people in Jutland, Lower Saxony and Friesland.
                              After all, that is what ships of that size are good for. The helm may even
                              have been a gift. Gifts were an important part of diplomacy in those days.
                            • Tim O'Neill
                              ... I should have written northern Germanic style or even northern European style . I m afraid I m not convinced about the links between East Anglia and
                              Message 14 of 15 , Feb 24, 2000
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                                Keth wrote:
                                >
                                > Tim O'Neill wrote:
                                > >
                                > >The Sutton Hoo helm is *similar* in design to late Roman
                                > >examples just as it is *similar* in decoration to southern Swedish
                                > >examples. But it is distinctive in many ways and is most
                                > >probably a native English piece, decorated in a common north
                                > ^^^^^
                                > >Germanic style and constructed according to principles and designs
                                > ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
                                > >which could be traced to the late Roman and sub-Roman periods
                                > >in Britain.
                                >
                                > Hi Tim!
                                >
                                > I agree with what you wrote here. Note that I have underlined the
                                > phrase : "north Germanic style".
                                >
                                > The Anglo Saxons did of course belong to the west Germanic division
                                > of the Germanic world. The question then is "how did a north Germanic
                                > style*) end up among the funerary equipment of a west Germanic king?"

                                I should have written 'northern Germanic style' or even 'northern
                                European style'. I'm afraid I'm not convinced about the links between
                                East Anglia and Vendel/Valsgarde. I've already mentioned the many
                                differences between the SH helm and the V/V examples. If you also
                                look at the SH shield you see many similarities with the ones found
                                at V/V, but similarly you find the same parallels on Lombard and
                                Geipid examples. What we are seeing here is a common Germanic style
                                of decoration. The main reason there seems to be a 'link' between
                                SH and V/V is that is where we've found the most artefacts so far.
                                I'd be willing to bet if we found a similar grave or graves in
                                northern Germany or in Denmark tomorrow, we'd find similar
                                motifs and similar decorative styles.

                                > *)As far as I know, the only other helms of that style that were found,
                                > were Swedish Vendel helms. But some of the same iconography was found
                                > on the Gallehus horns. The iconography therefore points to Sweden and
                                > Jutland. Perhaps Jutland is not such a bad guess, since the Anglo-Saxons
                                > are known to have come from that area some centuries earlier.
                                > Perhaps they still traded with people in Jutland, Lower Saxony and Friesland.
                                > After all, that is what ships of that size are good for. The helm may even
                                > have been a gift. Gifts were an important part of diplomacy in those days.

                                And the iconography of the horseman riding down a footman, found on
                                both the V/V helms and the SH helm is also found on a brooch from northern
                                Germany. In fact the German examples is far closer in its style to SH
                                than the V/V examples. This iconography was common in the Germanic world
                                at the time, it is not good evidence of a connection. The main reason
                                people talk about a connection between SH and V/V is the influence of
                                Bruce-Mitford on SH studies. He *suggested* such a link, though this is
                                hardly surprising considering he worked with Lindquist on some Vendel
                                digs in the 1960s. I feel his interpretation is a little biased by that
                                experience.
                                Cheers,

                                Tim O'Neill
                                Tasmanian Devil
                              • Keth
                                Hi Tim! ... I should like to know more specifically what these Langobard and Gepid items are. I have a feeling the helms have some very specific Scandinavian
                                Message 15 of 15 , Feb 24, 2000
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                                  Hi Tim!
                                  >I should have written 'northern Germanic style' or even 'northern
                                  >European style'. I'm afraid I'm not convinced about the links between
                                  >East Anglia and Vendel/Valsgarde. I've already mentioned the many
                                  >differences between the SH helm and the V/V examples. If you also
                                  >look at the SH shield you see many similarities with the ones found
                                  >at V/V, but similarly you find the same parallels on Lombard and
                                  >Geipid examples. What we are seeing here is a common Germanic style
                                  >of decoration. The main reason there seems to be a 'link' between
                                  >SH and V/V is that is where we've found the most artefacts so far.
                                  >I'd be willing to bet if we found a similar grave or graves in
                                  >northern Germany or in Denmark tomorrow, we'd find similar
                                  >motifs and similar decorative styles.

                                  I should like to know more specifically what these Langobard
                                  and Gepid items are. I have a feeling the helms have some
                                  very specific Scandinavian connotation.

                                  I am not talking about the birds heads (eagles or ravens?)
                                  which you indeed do find in many places, though I should like to
                                  see more specifically where.

                                  The "Tierstil" is of course common Germanic. But it developed
                                  and changed into different sub-styles in Scandinavia.
                                  Hence one can make more detailed statements than just
                                  referring to it as "Tierstil" and saying it is Germanic.
                                  In particular, as you proceed into the 7th and 8th centuries
                                  it would seem that there would be divergences in style.
                                  But I do not know enough about it to be more specific
                                  myself, although I do have some exhibition catalogs that
                                  show the items with place of origin and approximate date.
                                  Do you know of any good litterature on the subject?

                                  By 620 there may not have been so many possibilities left.
                                  By that late time, the Franks had already been Christian a long time.
                                  Ditto the West Goths, and I think the Langobards too.
                                  What is left seems to be the Saxons, the Frisians, the Danes,
                                  the Swedes, and the Anglo-saxons.

                                  Maybe this kind of wealth had some connection with shipping.
                                  Germanic sailing ships must have been in the process of developing then.
                                  Maybe those who had such ships, quickly got paid back on their
                                  investment through marine trading, and thus acquired wealth.
                                  Gold does not decay easily. If there had been a lot of such helms
                                  interred, you'd expect to find them. Probably only chieftains
                                  at centers of wealth could afford them.

                                  Has such wealth ever been found in other areas of nothern Europe
                                  during that time? Could not the Vendel richness be seen as the result
                                  of ship trade on the eastern Baltic?


                                  >And the iconography of the horseman riding down a footman, found on
                                  >both the V/V helms and the SH helm is also found on a brooch from northern
                                  >Germany. In fact the German examples is far closer in its style to SH
                                  >than the V/V examples. This iconography was common in the Germanic world
                                  >at the time, it is not good evidence of a connection. The main reason
                                  >people talk about a connection between SH and V/V is the influence of
                                  >Bruce-Mitford on SH studies. He *suggested* such a link, though this is
                                  >hardly surprising considering he worked with Lindquist on some Vendel
                                  >digs in the 1960s. I feel his interpretation is a little biased by that
                                  >experience.
                                  >Cheers,

                                  When you see the helms photographed next to each other, it is very
                                  evident that they are closely related. But of course, they are not
                                  identical, and it IS of course possible to see them related to a
                                  larger northern/western Germanic context. Though that remains speculative.
                                  Nevertheless, it is quite true, as you point out, that the finds
                                  are too few to draw any conclusions based on sound statistics.
                                  It could just be a result of the random locations of a very few
                                  scattered finds.


                                  Cheers,
                                  Keth
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