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[gothic-l] R: Gothic and Italian II & Gothic pronounciation

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  • Giuseppe Pagliarulo
    Godana dag Gutwulfa jah allaim ... You re probably right. The verb was apparently borrowed by French and Italian at the same time, giving Italian bramare and
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 12, 2000
      Godana dag Gutwulfa jah allaim

      > > Bramare "to desire intensely", bramire "(of animals) to scream" < Go
      > > *bramon.
      >
      >Hails, Iosef jah allaim!
      >Probably this hasn´t been a positive word. For the modest and
      >conservative goths a uncontroled behaviour wasn´t their ideal. I think
      >that it was first the verb for animals sound and then in italian to
      >want without control.
      You're probably right. The verb was apparently borrowed by French and
      Italian at the same time, giving Italian bramare and French bramir, which
      kept closer to the original meaning and was later borrowed again by Italian,
      where, in the meantime, the same Gothic verb had changed its meaning so that
      the two forms weren't compatible anymore.

      >This also reminded me that in Sw. the verb for the bears sound is
      >"brumma"roar.
      >This can also applied on people who sound harsh or threatening. Could
      >it be soundimitating?(onomatepoetic? Sorry, I am not sure of the
      >phrase).
      A sound-imitating PGmc *bramojan? We have at least one very probable example
      of onomatopoeic verb following the 2nd class of weak verbs: *klapojan ('to
      clap'; OE clapian).

      BTW: could anyone tell me of some Germanic cognate of a Go *þriskan? It
      should mean 'to stomp'.

      >I think this a initiative to support. It´s better to try, than actually
      >not doing it. I appreciate this and I agree on most of this, but I
      >have a question about "thi:na". Since it is dein and deine(pl.)in
      >Gotlandic(gutniske). Could it be possible that gothic had a diftongue
      >there too?
      This is unlikely. The Gothic <ei> graph is found corresponding to PGmc long
      i, and there's no reason why this should have changed in Gothic. Gotlandic
      seems here to show a phenomenon already observed in English and German, i.e.
      diphthongization of long vowels.
      A thing I disagree with is the proposed N value for gg (I suppose that N is
      a velar nasal); ng is spelled as a single velar sound in most English
      educated speech, but this is a relatively recent development.
      I noticed an 'afle[:]t: af'le:t seems more likely to me.
      I'm always convinced that <d>, <g> and <b> are stops after other consonants
      and that <iu> is a falling diphthong, so I don't agree with 'TjudaN,garDi.

      >It has been silent lately
      Ik lag in abrai brinnon nih rodjan mahta.

      Her ainshun nist dwals
      (::(
      Iosef
    • got@yesbox.net
      Godana dag, Iosefa jah allaim! ... Go ... think ... which ... Italian, ... so that ... example ... ( to ... This reminds me that in Sw., that the phrase for
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 12, 2000
        Godana dag, Iosefa jah allaim!

        > > > Bramare "to desire intensely", bramire "(of animals) to scream" <
        Go
        > > > *bramon.
        > >
        > >Probably this hasn´t been a positive word. For the modest and
        > >conservative goths a uncontroled behaviour wasn´t their ideal. I
        think
        > >that it was first the verb for animals sound and then in italian to
        > >want without control.
        > You're probably right. The verb was apparently borrowed by French and
        > Italian at the same time, giving Italian bramare and French bramir,
        which
        > kept closer to the original meaning and was later borrowed again by
        Italian,
        > where, in the meantime, the same Gothic verb had changed its meaning
        so that
        > the two forms weren't compatible anymore.
        >
        > >This also reminded me that in Sw. the verb for the bears sound is
        > >"brumma"roar.
        > >This can also applied on people who sound harsh or threatening. Could
        > >it be soundimitating?(onomatepoetic? Sorry, I am not sure of the
        > >phrase).
        > A sound-imitating PGmc *bramojan? We have at least one very probable
        example
        > of onomatopoeic verb following the 2nd class of weak verbs: *klapojan
        ('to
        > clap'; OE clapian).

        This reminds me that in Sw., that the phrase for clap or applaude is
        "klappa".

        > BTW: could anyone tell me of some Germanic cognate of a Go *þriskan?
        It
        > should mean 'to stomp'.

        In Sw. the phrase for separating the grain-corn from the stalks is
        "tröska". This was done in older times by beating with wooden sabres. I
        bet the gothic phrase for stomping the wine was *thriskan(separate the
        wine from the grapes).

        > >I think this a initiative to support. It´s better to try, than
        actually
        > >not doing it. I appreciate this and I agree on most of this, but I
        > >have a question about "thi:na". Since it is dein and deine(pl.)in
        > >Gotlandic(gutniske). Could it be possible that gothic had a diftongue
        > >there too?
        > This is unlikely. The Gothic <ei> graph is found corresponding to
        PGmc long
        > i, and there's no reason why this should have changed in Gothic.
        Gotlandic
        > seems here to show a phenomenon already observed in English and
        German, i.e.
        > diphthongization of long vowels.
        > A thing I disagree with is the proposed N value for gg (I suppose
        that N is
        > a velar nasal); ng is spelled as a single velar sound in most English
        > educated speech, but this is a relatively recent development.
        > I noticed an 'afle[:]t: af'le:t seems more likely to me.
        > I'm always convinced that <d>, <g> and <b> are stops after other
        consonants
        > and that <iu> is a falling diphthong, so I don't agree with
        'TjudaN,garDi.
        >
        > >It has been silent lately
        > Ik lag in abrai brinnon nih rodjan mahta.


        Gutwulfs
      • David Salo
        ... This is English thresh , which means to strike a (grain) plant to separate the seed from it . German dreschen has the same meaning. English thrash
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 12, 2000
          >BTW: could anyone tell me of some Germanic cognate of a Go *þriskan? It
          >should mean 'to stomp'.

          This is English "thresh", which means "to strike a (grain) plant to
          separate the seed from it". German dreschen has the same meaning. English
          "thrash" (meaning "beat, flog") is an alteration of "thresh".

          /\ WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
          \/ WRAIQS NU IST <> David Salo
          <dsalo@...> <>
        • got@yesbox.net
          go-@yesbox.net wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1810 Godana dag, Iosefa jah allaim! In Sw. the phrase for separating the
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 13, 2000
            go-@... wrote:
            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1810

            Godana dag, Iosefa jah allaim!

            In Sw. the phrase for separating the grain-corn from the stalks is
            "tröska". This was done in older times by beating with short wooden
            decorated sabres. This was often done in rhythm with many together.
            Later maybe it became a word to mark the rhythm. In gothic it also
            meant to stomp the feat in rhythm? I bet the gothic phrase for stomping
            the wine was *thriskan(separate the wine from the grapes).

            > >I think this a initiative to support. It´s better to try, than
            actually
            > >not doing it. I appreciate this and I agree on most of this, but I
            > >have a question about "thi:na". Since it is dein and deine(pl.)in
            > >Gotlandic(gutniske). Could it be possible that gothic had a diftongue
            > >there too?
            > This is unlikely. The Gothic <ei> graph is found corresponding to
            PGmc long
            > i, and there's no reason why this should have changed in Gothic.
            Gotlandic
            > seems here to show a phenomenon already observed in English and
            German, i.e.
            > diphthongization of long vowels.

            Yes, Iosefs you are right about this. I remember now that it was said
            that especially in Gotlandic they had diphthongization of long vowels
            in the late viking age and the medieval ages. In fact many vowels had
            this phenomena happening to them eccept short vowels. One exemple is
            "fyl" foal (horse-kid) and "hul" hole. I had a hope that gotl. "dein"
            would be an original vowel, but probably not.



            Gutwulfs
          • John Otis
            The verb Þreskja in Icelandic means to thresh, in English. Hope that this helps. John. ... From: David Salo To:
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 13, 2000
              The verb Þreskja in Icelandic means to thresh, in English. Hope that this
              helps.
              John.


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: David Salo <dsalo@...>
              To: <gothic-l@egroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 11:20 PM
              Subject: [gothic-l] Re: R: Gothic and Italian II & Gothic pronounciation


              >BTW: could anyone tell me of some Germanic cognate of a Go *þriskan? It
              >should mean 'to stomp'.

              This is English "thresh", which means "to strike a (grain) plant to
              separate the seed from it". German dreschen has the same meaning. English
              "thrash" (meaning "beat, flog") is an alteration of "thresh".

              /\ WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
              \/ WRAIQS NU IST <> David Salo
              <dsalo@...> <>



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            • got@yesbox.net
              david salo wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1811 ... It ... English ... Hails, David! I also thought
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 14, 2000
                david salo <dsal-@...> wrote:
                original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1811
                > >BTW: could anyone tell me of some Germanic cognate of a Go *þriskan?
                It
                > >should mean 'to stomp'.
                >
                > This is English "thresh", which means "to strike a (grain) plant to
                > separate the seed from it". German dreschen has the same meaning.
                English
                > "thrash" (meaning "beat, flog") is an alteration of "thresh".

                Hails, David!
                I also thought about MnE threshold and Sw. tröskel. They probably mean
                "treedivider"(at the door). So since this "thresh" usually was done
                with a wooden pole in older times, the word could mean "to beat with
                something wooden"(triws). Just a thought!


                Gutwulfs

                > /\ WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
                > \/ WRAIQS NU IST <> David
                Salo
                > <dsalo@...> <>
                >
                >
              • Giuseppe Pagliarulo
                Hails! go-@yesbox.net wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1810 ... I think you are quite close to the mark here. Rhythm seems
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 14, 2000
                  Hails!
                  go-@... wrote:
                  original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1810

                  >Godana dag, Iosefa jah allaim!
                  >
                  >In Sw. the phrase for separating the grain-corn from the stalks is
                  >"tröska". This was done in older times by beating with short wooden
                  >decorated sabres. This was often done in rhythm with many together.
                  >Later maybe it became a word to mark the rhythm. In gothic it also
                  >meant to stomp the feat in rhythm? I bet the gothic phrase for stomping
                  >the wine was *thriskan(separate the wine from the grapes).

                  I think you are quite close to the mark here. Rhythm seems to play some role
                  in this term's connotation. *Thriskan was deduced from the Italian verb
                  trescare , which nowadays means "to elope", but meant "to dance" once.
                  Apparently related is the term tresca, today "unofficial sexual relation",
                  but some time ago an unelegant peasant's dance with regular rapid movements
                  of hands and legs.

                  Her ainshun nist dwals
                  (::(
                  Iosef
                • got@yesbox.net
                  giuseppe pagliarulo wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1820 ... Godana dag, Iosefa jah allaim!
                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 19, 2000
                    "giuseppe pagliarulo" <g.pagliarul-@...> wrote:
                    original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1820
                    > go-@... wrote:
                    > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1810

                    Godana dag, Iosefa jah allaim!

                    I also thought about MnE threshold and Sw. tröskel. I also have a
                    slight memory that AS "treskel" means the same thing. They probably mean
                    "treedivider"(at the door). Also Sw. "vägskäl" roadconversion. They
                    seem to follow the AS and Go. spelling of wood with treu? and triws. So
                    since this "thresh" usually was done with a wooden pole in older times,
                    the word could mean "to beat with something wooden"(triws). Just a
                    thought!


                    Gutwulfs




                    > >In Sw. the phrase for separating the grain-corn from the stalks is
                    > >"tröska". This was done in older times by beating with short wooden
                    > >decorated sabres. This was often done in rhythm with many together.
                    > >Later maybe it became a word to mark the rhythm. In gothic it also
                    > >meant to stomp the feat in rhythm? I bet the gothic phrase for
                    stomping
                    > >the wine was *thriskan(separate the wine from the grapes).
                    >
                    > I think you are quite close to the mark here. Rhythm seems to play
                    some role
                    > in this term's connotation. *Thriskan was deduced from the Italian
                    verb
                    > trescare , which nowadays means "to elope", but meant "to dance" once.
                    > Apparently related is the term tresca, today "unofficial sexual
                    relation",
                    > but some time ago an unelegant peasant's dance with regular rapid
                    movements
                    > of hands and legs.
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