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[gothic-l] Chatti, Cherusci, Suebi

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  • Bertil Häggman
    Listmembers, These three people names are mentioned in Tacitus _Germania_. There are several etymologies suggested for the Chatti. Nonen has been generally
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 4, 2000
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      Listmembers,

      These three people names are mentioned in Tacitus
      _Germania_.

      There are several etymologies suggested for the
      Chatti. Nonen has been generally accepted. Most
      scholars agree that the modern 'Hesse' in some way
      is connected.

      The name Cherusci seems to be Germanic. Derivation
      is uncertain. One suggestion is Germanic *herut- (stag).

      Concerning Suebi there is *sweboz in Germanic. It almost
      certainly derives from the reflexive pronoun *swe-,
      (oneself) combined with the suffix -bo- (from the same
      root as the English 'be'). The original meaning must
      have been something like "those existing for themselves".

      Gothically

      Bertil Haggman
    • Tim O'Neill
      ... Any guesses as to what an early West Germanic form of the name may have been? ... So would the name have been something like *Herutaz or perhaps
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 5, 2000
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        Bertil Häggman wrote:

        > There are several etymologies suggested for the
        > Chatti. Nonen has been generally accepted. Most
        > scholars agree that the modern 'Hesse' in some way
        > is connected.

        Any guesses as to what an early West Germanic form of the name may have
        been?

        > The name Cherusci seems to be Germanic. Derivation
        > is uncertain. One suggestion is Germanic *herut- (stag).

        So would the name have been something like '*Herutaz' or perhaps
        '*Herutas'?

        > Concerning Suebi there is *sweboz in Germanic. It almost
        > certainly derives from the reflexive pronoun *swe-,
        > (oneself) combined with the suffix -bo- (from the same
        > root as the English 'be'). The original meaning must
        > have been something like "those existing for themselves".

        Again, any ideas as to what form the Suebian name for themselves
        may have taken?

        I've wondered what the name of the Burgundians was originally. I take
        it the 'burg-' element refers to a fortress or fortresses, but what
        about the ending?

        And are the tentative reconstructions I've already mentioned
        (*Markomannanaz, *Thiudanz and *Hari) close to the mark?
        Thanks in advance,

        Tim O'Neill
        Tasmanian Devil
      • John Otis
        Check this out- this is a translation of The Our Father in Gothic. The translation is by Lowlands-L Administrator mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com attar unsar thu in
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 5, 2000
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          Check this out- this is a translation of The Our Father in Gothic. The
          translation is by Lowlands-L Administrator mailto:sassisch@...
          attar unsar thu in himinam
          'atar 'unsar Tu in 'himinam
          weihnai namo thein
          'wi:Cne: 'namo Ti:n
          quimai thiundinassus theins
          'kwime: 'Tjundinasus Ti:ns
          wairthai wilja theins
          'we:rTe: 'wilja Ti:ns
          swe in himina jah ana airthai
          swe in 'himina jax 'ana 'e:rTe:
          hlaif unsarana thana sinteinan gif uns himma daga
          xle:f'unsarana 'Tana 'sinti:nan gif uns 'himma 'daGa
          jah aflet uns thatai skulans sijaima
          jax 'aflet uns 'Tate: 'skulans 'sije:ma
          swaswe jah weis afletam thaim skulan unsaraim
          'swaswe jax wi:s 'afletam Te:m 'skulan 'unsare:m
          jah ni briggais uns in fraistubnjai
          jax ni 'briNe:s uns in 'fre:stubnje:
          auk lausai uns of thamma ubilin
          o:k 'lo:se: uns of 'Tamma 'uBilin
          unte thina ist thiudangardi jah mahts jah wulthus in aiwins amen
          'unte 'Tina ist 'TjudaN,garDi jax maxts jax 'wulTus in e:wins 'amen


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Tim O'Neill <scatha@...>
          To: <gothic-l@egroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 4:17 PM
          Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Chatti, Cherusci, Suebi


          > Bertil Häggman wrote:
          >
          > > There are several etymologies suggested for the
          > > Chatti. Nonen has been generally accepted. Most
          > > scholars agree that the modern 'Hesse' in some way
          > > is connected.
          >
          > Any guesses as to what an early West Germanic form of the name may have
          > been?
          >
          > > The name Cherusci seems to be Germanic. Derivation
          > > is uncertain. One suggestion is Germanic *herut- (stag).
          >
          > So would the name have been something like '*Herutaz' or perhaps
          > '*Herutas'?
          >
          > > Concerning Suebi there is *sweboz in Germanic. It almost
          > > certainly derives from the reflexive pronoun *swe-,
          > > (oneself) combined with the suffix -bo- (from the same
          > > root as the English 'be'). The original meaning must
          > > have been something like "those existing for themselves".
          >
          > Again, any ideas as to what form the Suebian name for themselves
          > may have taken?
          >
          > I've wondered what the name of the Burgundians was originally. I take
          > it the 'burg-' element refers to a fortress or fortresses, but what
          > about the ending?
          >
          > And are the tentative reconstructions I've already mentioned
          > (*Markomannanaz, *Thiudanz and *Hari) close to the mark?
          > Thanks in advance,
          >
          > Tim O'Neill
          > Tasmanian Devil
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          >
        • Keth
          ... Borg is also related to the word for mountain. A nearby mountain was also frequently used as oppidum or place to take refuge for the local population
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 5, 2000
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            Tim O'Neill wrote:

            >>
            >> I've wondered what the name of the Burgundians was originally. I take
            >> it the 'burg-' element refers to a fortress or fortresses, but what
            >> about the ending?

            "Borg" is also related to the word for mountain.
            A nearby mountain was also frequently used as "oppidum"
            or place to take refuge for the local population in
            times of trouble.

            "-und" is a suffix that is often said "to have no meaning".
            Nevertheless, the "-und" suffix is often found in names for
            islands.

            If I recall correctly, "Borgund" is simply an older name for Bornholm.
            But the name "Borgund" occurs elsewhere too, for example as the name
            of the famous stave church on the Filefjell road in Norway. And if you
            take a look at the site of this old church, you will see that it
            is indeed located beneath a huge mountain.


            But to conclude from a single coinciding Nomen, that this has
            any implications for the migration of a whole nation, is of
            course entirely false. (as has been elaborated)


            >> And are the tentative reconstructions I've already mentioned
            >> (*Markomannanaz, *Thiudanz and *Hari) close to the mark?
            >> Thanks in advance,
            >>
            These seem fairly easy. "Mark" like in "Denmark", "mann" like in "maðr",
            "Thiud" like in "Þjóð", "Har" like in "Harald"... is that what you
            meant?

            Best regards
            Keth
          • got@yesbox.net
            john otis wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1796 Godana dag John! I think this a initiative to
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 11, 2000
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              "john otis" <viking97-@...> wrote:
              original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1796

              Godana dag John!
              I think this a initiative to support. It´s better to try, than actually
              not doing it. I appreciate this and I agree on most of this, but I
              have a question about "thi:na". Since it is dein and deine(pl.)in
              Gotlandic(gutniske). Could it be possible that gothic had a diftongue
              there too?
              (For)ever and ever "e ok e" in 13th c gotlandic "gutasagu", seems to
              support the pronounciation of "aiwins" as e:wins!
              Auk is also spelt and pronounced ' auk ' in ON, but of course it could
              have been o:k in gothic. Do you or anybody else has an opinion?
              This was very interesting thanks again.




              Gutwulfs


              > Check this out- this is a translation of The Our Father in Gothic.
              The
              > translation is by Lowlands-L Administrator mailto:sassisch@...
              > attar unsar thu in himinam
              > 'atar 'unsar Tu in 'himinam
              > weihnai namo thein
              > 'wi:Cne: 'namo Ti:n
              > quimai thiundinassus theins
              > 'kwime: 'Tjundinasus Ti:ns
              > wairthai wilja theins
              > 'we:rTe: 'wilja Ti:ns
              > swe in himina jah ana airthai
              > swe in 'himina jax 'ana 'e:rTe:
              > hlaif unsarana thana sinteinan gif uns himma daga
              > xle:f'unsarana 'Tana 'sinti:nan gif uns 'himma 'daGa
              > jah aflet uns thatai skulans sijaima
              > jax 'aflet uns 'Tate: 'skulans 'sije:ma
              > swaswe jah weis afletam thaim skulan unsaraim
              > 'swaswe jax wi:s 'afletam Te:m 'skulan 'unsare:m
              > jah ni briggais uns in fraistubnjai
              > jax ni 'briNe:s uns in 'fre:stubnje:
              > auk lausai uns of thamma ubilin
              > o:k 'lo:se: uns of 'Tamma 'uBilin
              > unte thina ist thiudangardi jah mahts jah wulthus in aiwins amen
              > 'unte 'Tina ist 'TjudaN,garDi jax maxts jax 'wulTus in e:wins 'amen
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Tim O'Neill <scatha@...>
              > To: <gothic-l@egroups.com>
              > Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 4:17 PM
              > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Chatti, Cherusci, Suebi
              >
              >
              > > Bertil Häggman wrote:
              > >
              > > > There are several etymologies suggested for the
              > > > Chatti. Nonen has been generally accepted. Most
              > > > scholars agree that the modern 'Hesse' in some way
              > > > is connected.
              > >
              > > Any guesses as to what an early West Germanic form of the name may
              have
              > > been?
              > >
              > > > The name Cherusci seems to be Germanic. Derivation
              > > > is uncertain. One suggestion is Germanic *herut- (stag).
              > >
              > > So would the name have been something like '*Herutaz' or perhaps
              > > '*Herutas'?
              > >
              > > > Concerning Suebi there is *sweboz in Germanic. It almost
              > > > certainly derives from the reflexive pronoun *swe-,
              > > > (oneself) combined with the suffix -bo- (from the same
              > > > root as the English 'be'). The original meaning must
              > > > have been something like "those existing for themselves".
              > >
              > > Again, any ideas as to what form the Suebian name for themselves
              > > may have taken?
              > >
              > > I've wondered what the name of the Burgundians was originally. I
              take
              > > it the 'burg-' element refers to a fortress or fortresses, but what
              > > about the ending?
              > >
              > > And are the tentative reconstructions I've already mentioned
              > > (*Markomannanaz, *Thiudanz and *Hari) close to the mark?
              > > Thanks in advance,
              > >
              > > Tim O'Neill
              > > Tasmanian Devil
              > >
            • John Otis
              Hi, I don t have information about the grammar of the Gothic language. I am a student of the Icelandic language. I subscribed to this newsletter to help me
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 13, 2000
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                Hi,
                I don't have information about the grammar of the Gothic language. I am a
                student of the Icelandic language. I subscribed to this newsletter to help
                me out with my Icelandic studies.
                I hope it helped you some.
                John.


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <got@...>
                To: <gothic-l@...>
                Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 12:37 PM
                Subject: [gothic-l] Gothic pronounciation


                "john otis" <viking97-@...> wrote:
                original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=1796

                Godana dag John!
                I think this a initiative to support. It´s better to try, than actually
                not doing it. I appreciate this and I agree on most of this, but I
                have a question about "thi:na". Since it is dein and deine(pl.)in
                Gotlandic(gutniske). Could it be possible that gothic had a diftongue
                there too?
                (For)ever and ever "e ok e" in 13th c gotlandic "gutasagu", seems to
                support the pronounciation of "aiwins" as e:wins!
                Auk is also spelt and pronounced ' auk ' in ON, but of course it could
                have been o:k in gothic. Do you or anybody else has an opinion?
                This was very interesting thanks again.




                Gutwulfs


                > Check this out- this is a translation of The Our Father in Gothic.
                The
                > translation is by Lowlands-L Administrator mailto:sassisch@...
                > attar unsar thu in himinam
                > 'atar 'unsar Tu in 'himinam
                > weihnai namo thein
                > 'wi:Cne: 'namo Ti:n
                > quimai thiundinassus theins
                > 'kwime: 'Tjundinasus Ti:ns
                > wairthai wilja theins
                > 'we:rTe: 'wilja Ti:ns
                > swe in himina jah ana airthai
                > swe in 'himina jax 'ana 'e:rTe:
                > hlaif unsarana thana sinteinan gif uns himma daga
                > xle:f'unsarana 'Tana 'sinti:nan gif uns 'himma 'daGa
                > jah aflet uns thatai skulans sijaima
                > jax 'aflet uns 'Tate: 'skulans 'sije:ma
                > swaswe jah weis afletam thaim skulan unsaraim
                > 'swaswe jax wi:s 'afletam Te:m 'skulan 'unsare:m
                > jah ni briggais uns in fraistubnjai
                > jax ni 'briNe:s uns in 'fre:stubnje:
                > auk lausai uns of thamma ubilin
                > o:k 'lo:se: uns of 'Tamma 'uBilin
                > unte thina ist thiudangardi jah mahts jah wulthus in aiwins amen
                > 'unte 'Tina ist 'TjudaN,garDi jax maxts jax 'wulTus in e:wins 'amen
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Tim O'Neill <scatha@...>
                > To: <gothic-l@egroups.com>
                > Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 4:17 PM
                > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Chatti, Cherusci, Suebi
                >
                >
                > > Bertil Häggman wrote:
                > >
                > > > There are several etymologies suggested for the
                > > > Chatti. Nonen has been generally accepted. Most
                > > > scholars agree that the modern 'Hesse' in some way
                > > > is connected.
                > >
                > > Any guesses as to what an early West Germanic form of the name may
                have
                > > been?
                > >
                > > > The name Cherusci seems to be Germanic. Derivation
                > > > is uncertain. One suggestion is Germanic *herut- (stag).
                > >
                > > So would the name have been something like '*Herutaz' or perhaps
                > > '*Herutas'?
                > >
                > > > Concerning Suebi there is *sweboz in Germanic. It almost
                > > > certainly derives from the reflexive pronoun *swe-,
                > > > (oneself) combined with the suffix -bo- (from the same
                > > > root as the English 'be'). The original meaning must
                > > > have been something like "those existing for themselves".
                > >
                > > Again, any ideas as to what form the Suebian name for themselves
                > > may have taken?
                > >
                > > I've wondered what the name of the Burgundians was originally. I
                take
                > > it the 'burg-' element refers to a fortress or fortresses, but what
                > > about the ending?
                > >
                > > And are the tentative reconstructions I've already mentioned
                > > (*Markomannanaz, *Thiudanz and *Hari) close to the mark?
                > > Thanks in advance,
                > >
                > > Tim O'Neill
                > > Tasmanian Devil
                > >


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              • Ben van Poppel
                Hi Andre. I m not too bad thanks, just thankful that things will be more or less done soon. The semester as a whole has been a bit of a downer for some reason
                Message 7 of 9 , May 29 7:50 AM
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                  Hi Andre.

                  I'm not too bad thanks, just thankful that things will be more or less
                  done soon. The semester as a whole has been a bit of a downer for some
                  reason (0 motivation and too many other things on the side, most of
                  which are more tempting than Uni work as research is relatively
                  painless). Oh well, I've heard it said second year is the toughest
                  year, so I'm sure I'll manage to stick it out! :)

                  There was a Hörverständnis test on in German today, which Tina says we
                  can do next week sometime. Thursday would probably be the best day for
                  me; maybe we can knock them both over on the same day. I've postponed
                  German lit and Syntax until the next exam period. If Thursday doesn't
                  work, Friday will probably be fine as well. all depends on when my
                  folks are coming up to help me cart my stuff home, but I imagine that
                  wouldn't be until the afternoon at the earliest.

                  Your right - there is no Accents exam. Must have got my wires
                  crossed. :) Mark's agreed to me emailing him the completed
                  assignments.

                  I'm sure I'll catch up with you before the end of the week. If not,
                  have a good weekend.

                  Cheers,
                  Ben
                • czobor@cantacuzino.ro
                  What has this to do with the Gothic-L ??? Francisc ... less ... some ... we ... for ... postponed ... doesn t ... that
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 30 1:44 AM
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                    What has this to do with the Gothic-L ???

                    Francisc

                    --- In gothic-l@y..., Ben van Poppel <benny@N...> wrote:
                    > Hi Andre.
                    >
                    > I'm not too bad thanks, just thankful that things will be more or
                    less
                    > done soon. The semester as a whole has been a bit of a downer for
                    some
                    > reason (0 motivation and too many other things on the side, most of
                    > which are more tempting than Uni work as research is relatively
                    > painless). Oh well, I've heard it said second year is the toughest
                    > year, so I'm sure I'll manage to stick it out! :)
                    >
                    > There was a Hörverständnis test on in German today, which Tina says
                    we
                    > can do next week sometime. Thursday would probably be the best day
                    for
                    > me; maybe we can knock them both over on the same day. I've
                    postponed
                    > German lit and Syntax until the next exam period. If Thursday
                    doesn't
                    > work, Friday will probably be fine as well. all depends on when my
                    > folks are coming up to help me cart my stuff home, but I imagine
                    that
                    > wouldn't be until the afternoon at the earliest.
                    >
                    > Your right - there is no Accents exam. Must have got my wires
                    > crossed. :) Mark's agreed to me emailing him the completed
                    > assignments.
                    >
                    > I'm sure I'll catch up with you before the end of the week. If not,
                    > have a good weekend.
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    > Ben
                  • M. Carver
                    ... Hails! Looks like a stray mis-post to me. I m trying to ignore it. If it happens again I ll look into it. Cheers, Matþaius
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 30 2:04 AM
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                      on 5/30/01 1:44 AM, czobor@... at czobor@... wrote:

                      > What has this to do with the Gothic-L ???
                      >
                      > Francisc

                      Hails!

                      Looks like a stray mis-post to me. I'm trying to ignore it. If it happens
                      again I'll look into it.

                      Cheers,
                      Matþaius
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