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[gothic-l] Introduction

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  • Bertil Haggman
    My main interest is the question of the origin of the Goths and the ongoing work among researchers to compare the Gothic of the Silver Bible with various
    Message 1 of 30 , Oct 31, 1998
      My main interest is the question of
      the origin of the Goths and the
      ongoing work among researchers to
      compare the Gothic of the Silver
      Bible with various languages and
      dialects to find clues.

      Gothically

      Bertil Haggman
      NPMP, Sweden


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    • Marion Edwards
      Hails! As I de-lurk to the Gothic list, I thought I d write a little something to say Hello, this is who I am and why I m here. My name is Marion. I ve
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 23, 1999
        Hails!

        As I "de-lurk" to the Gothic list, I thought I'd write a little something
        to say "Hello, this is who I am and why I'm here."

        My name is Marion. I've taken a fair number of college-level linguistics
        courses (in fact, that was my minor, although I have yet to get my
        degree). My current knowledge of Gothic begins with "Atta unsar..." and
        ends with the subsequent "Amen." I'm just beginning to read through
        David Salo's "Gothic primers," which I'm sure will prove invaluable in
        absence of an actual course :)

        My interest in the Gothic language is twofold: firstly, it appeals to the
        philologist in me; and secondly, I'd like to use it as a vehicle for
        artistic expression -- musical expression. (Yes, confessedly, I'm taken
        with the notion of creating some real "Gothic Rock.") Thus, I'm
        particularly interested in poetry, and hope to read new works created by
        the members of this list and someday compose some of my own.

        Wishing everyone well,

        -- Maria Audawardis
      • David Salo
        Maria Audawardis wrote I d like to use it as a vehicle for artistic expression -- musical expression. (Yes, confessedly, I m taken with the notion of
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 25, 1999
          Maria Audawardis wrote
          "I'd like to use it as a vehicle for artistic expression -- musical
          expression. (Yes, confessedly, I'm taken with the notion of creating some
          real "Gothic Rock.") Thus, I'm particularly interested in poetry, and hope
          to read new works created by the members of this list and someday compose
          some of my own."

          I've been wondering myself what the best vehicle for Gothic poetry is.
          Different languages have different styles of poetry: Latin and Greek
          preferred unrhymed prosodic metres; but the later Romance languages
          replaced these metres with complex rhyme schemes and stress-based metres.
          Old English and Old Norse used alliterative metres, but English replaced
          alliteration with rhyme by the 15th century. Chinese has always used
          rhymes; Finnish prefers unrhymed stress-based metres.
          I don't think we have any way of knowing what kind of poetry the Goths
          wrote, so we're on our own. The only Gothic poetry I've ever seen is
          J.R.R. Tolkien's Birch poem: this uses a somewhat irregular alliteration as
          well as rhyme, but the rhyme is largely based on repeated morphological
          endings, which looks a bit like cheating (like trying to rhyme in English a
          bunch of words ending in -ing). I don't know exactly how you do rhymes in
          an inflecting language; there was a lot of Latin rhymed poetry written in
          the Middle Ages, so obviously it can be done, but I'm not at all familiar
          with the techniques. I've never seen a rhyming dictionary of Gothic; it
          seems like an interesting project.
          Alliteration, as used in ancient Germanic languages, seems an obvious
          way to go; but I don't think you can quite duplicate the same kinds of
          rhythms in Gothic, due to its different syllable structure. I've tried
          Gothicizing a bit of Old English verse, and the effect is not quite the
          same; as an example, this is Caedmon's hymn in a Gothicized English (this
          shouldn't be taken as a specimen of real Gothic, many of the words would
          never have occurred in Gothic and it is certainly bad Gothic in other ways
          too):

          Nu skulum hazjan himinareikjis ward
          Mitudis mah jah modagathagk is
          Wairk wulthrafadrs swe is wundre gahwis
          Ekeis Drauhtins air anastalida
          Is airists skop airthos barnam
          Himin du hroba hailags skapjands
          Than Midjungard mannakunjis wards
          Ekeis Drauhtins bithe tiugaida
          Feiram fulda Frauja allmahteigs.

          The extra syllables in Gothic make this much less sure than
          Caedmon's original and give it an air of hesitation and awkwardness.

          As far as doing Gothic poetry in a quantitative metre, a glance at
          some Gothic prose suggests to me that the distribution of long to short
          syllables is even enough to make this quite feasible; but I have never seen
          it done. Possibly some new metres would have to be developed to suit the
          style of Gothic, rather than imitating Greek or Latin metres.

          /\ WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
          \/ WRAIQS NU IST <> David Salo
          <dsalo@...> <>
        • Thomas Leigh
          Hailai! I just joined the group and was asked to introduce myself. I ve been fascinated by the Gothic language for years, though somehow never managed to have
          Message 4 of 30 , Jul 12, 2000
            Hailai!

            I just joined the group and was asked to introduce myself.

            I've been fascinated by the Gothic language for years, though somehow
            never managed to have the time to try and acquire an active knowledge
            of it yet. I stumbled across Matthew's web site and discovered the
            existence of this list, so I immediately joined up in the hope of
            getting in touch with other Gothic enthusiasts and hope to be soon be
            able to practice using the language with those of you who are so
            inclined :)

            My other main liguistic interests are several of the Germanic
            languages both ancient (eg. Anglo-Saxon, Old Norse) and modern (e.g.
            Frisian, Icelandic), and also Celtic languages (my degree is in
            Scottish Gaelic, and I dabble in the other 5 modern ones).

            I do have one question, re pronunciation: according to the books on
            Gothic I've seen (Wright's primer and grammar, and Bennett's
            "Introduction") it seems to be the academic consensus that in the
            Gothic of Wulfila "ai" and "au" were open vowels /E/ and /O/, and it
            is merely an academic convention to use the accents (ái, áu,
            aí, aú)
            to indicate, for historical/etymological purposes, which /E/'s and
            /O/'s developed out of original diphthongs and which out of original
            open vowels. Yet the websites I found seem to recommend pronouncing
            "ái", "áu" as diphthongs /aj/, /aw/. I was wondering what
            opinions
            the people on this list who actually like to speak (or read aloud)
            Gothic have on this matter, and if it all right if I choose to use
            the "Wulfilic" pronunciation instead of the "etymological" one?

            Looking forward to Gothicking with you all,

            Thomas

            PS. I don't have any texts handy -- is my name attested at all? What
            would it be in Gothic, any ideas?
          • Eric Nash
            Thomas, ... From my reading of Bennet, I understood that a i and a u were diphthongs, ai and au were short /e/ and /o/ respectively and ai and
            Message 5 of 30 , Jul 12, 2000
              Thomas,
              >I do have one question, re pronunciation: according to the books on
              >Gothic I've seen (Wright's primer and grammar, and Bennett's
              >"Introduction") it seems to be the academic consensus that in the
              >Gothic of Wulfila "ai" and "au" were open vowels /E/ and /O/, and it
              >is merely an academic convention to use the accents (ái, áu,
              >aí, aú)
              From my reading of Bennet, I understood that "a'i" and "a'u" were
              diphthongs, "ai' " and "au' " were short /e/ and /o/ respectively and "ai"
              and "au" were long /e/ and /o/. This was how we read it in my Gothic class
              at UCLA as well.
              -Eric
            • Trisan McLeay
              Hi, I m Tristan McLeay. I m 15 years old (but don t let that put you off). I ve had an interest in languages and linguistics for a few years (or all my life,
              Message 6 of 30 , Jul 15, 2000
                Hi,
                I'm Tristan McLeay. I'm 15 years old (but don't let that put you off).
                I've had an interest in languages and linguistics for a few years (or
                all my life, to some extent). I am quite interested in extinct
                Germanic Languages, especially Old English.
                I became interested in Gothic through seeing various comparasons of
                Germanic Languages, and liked the look of it. I don't know that much
                about it, but would like to know more. I expect that I will mostly be
                reading posts from here, rather then posting anything.

                BFN, Tristan
              • Francisc Czobor
                Welcome, Tristan! don t be inhibited by your age. When I begun to be interested in linguistics, I had approx. your age. Francisc
                Message 7 of 30 , Jul 16, 2000
                  Welcome, Tristan!

                  don't be inhibited by your age. When I begun to be interested in
                  linguistics, I had approx. your age.

                  Francisc

                  On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Trisan McLeay wrote:

                  > Hi,
                  > I'm Tristan McLeay. I'm 15 years old (but don't let that put you off).
                  > I've had an interest in languages and linguistics for a few years (or
                  > all my life, to some extent). I am quite interested in extinct
                  > Germanic Languages, especially Old English.
                  > I became interested in Gothic through seeing various comparasons of
                  > Germanic Languages, and liked the look of it. I don't know that much
                  > about it, but would like to know more. I expect that I will mostly be
                  > reading posts from here, rather then posting anything.
                  >
                  > BFN, Tristan
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > WRITERS WANTED! Themestream allows ALL writers to publish their
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                  >
                  >
                • Inge Van Keirsbilck
                  Hails! I m sorry, but as yet this is all I can say (or write) in Gothic. My name is Inge, and I study Germanic Languages at the University of Ghent, Belgium. I
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jul 17, 2000
                    Hails!

                    I'm sorry, but as yet this is all I can say (or write) in Gothic.
                    My name is Inge, and I study Germanic Languages at the University of Ghent,
                    Belgium. I study mainly Swedish and German, but I also have some knowledge
                    of Danish and a great interest in my native language, Dutch.
                    I also speak quite good Icelandic ( I lived there for a year as an exchange
                    student and plan to return very soon ).
                    This year I studied some Old Dutch and Gothic at university and I would like
                    to learn more about old Germanic languages in general.

                    I would really like to be able to use Gothic actively rather than just read
                    what was written ages ago and therefore I would like to ask those who
                    actually speak and write Gothic how they went about it.
                    ________________________________________________________________________
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                  • Bertil Häggman
                    First of all thanks to Tim for opening this new list for ancient Germanic history. Although a long time subscriber to the Gothic-L I think maybe I should
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 4, 2000
                      First of all thanks to Tim for opening this
                      new list for ancient Germanic history.

                      Although a long time subscriber to the Gothic-L
                      I think maybe I should provide a few biographic
                      details.

                      Am a Swedish author, member of the Swedish
                      Writers' Union (born 1940). One of my interests is ancient
                      Germanic history mainly concentrating on migrations.
                      Have published rather extensively since 1995 on
                      the subject both at home and abroad. Director
                      of the Nordic Peoples' Migration Project (NPMP)
                      200 BC - 550 AD.

                      An interesting but not so well known macrohistorian
                      was Franz Borkenau (1901 - 1957), who had much
                      in common with Oswald Spengler and Arnold
                      Toynbee. His unpublished material was brought
                      to the public by the publication of _End and Beginning -
                      Generations of Cultures and the Origins of the West_ (1981).

                      He was of the conviction that the first use of the pronoun
                      "I" in northern Europe was found in a runic inscription
                      of about 400 AD from Denmark: "I, Hlegestr from Holt,
                      made this horn". Sych a statement, so Borkenau, contrasted
                      sharply with the Greek and Latin expressions. A Roman
                      crafstman would write for instance "Gn. Manlius faber hoc cornu
                      fecit" (The craftsman Gn. Manlius made this horn).

                      The Danish inscription reflected the Western attitude toward
                      the world (and society). It was individualism, self-assertion,
                      and activism. Use of the first-person pronoun became obligatory
                      by 1000 AD in the Scandinavian languages and later spread to
                      English, German, and French (the last resisted until the 1600s).
                      Gothic, for instance, lacked the independent pronoun, but the
                      post migration era have them.

                      I will return from time to time to Borkenau, who could offer a number
                      of fascinating reflections.

                      Germanically

                      Bertil Haggman
                    • Le Bateman
                      I am Jacob L. Bateman III I live in Montgomery, Alabama. I have two degrees one in Theology, and the other in History. I can translate Koine Greek, and
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jul 8, 2004
                        I am Jacob L. Bateman III I live in Montgomery, Alabama. I have two degrees
                        one in Theology, and the other in History.
                        I can translate Koine Greek, and Classical Hebrew. I also taught myself
                        Attic Greek, and Classical Latin. I am familiar with Old English, however I
                        am still learning. I have an e-file of Joseph Wright's Gothic and Old High
                        German Grammars. I do not know that much about the origins of Gothic, but
                        want to learn. A few years ago I joined the list, and it was a tutorial on
                        the grammar thanks to David Salo, and others. Sean Crist also has an
                        excellent site through the University of Pennsylvania. Ic hof Ic can Gotisc
                        geleornode. Glaed to beo hier.
                        Le
                      • Rami
                        Hi all, I believe it would be polite to introduce myself a bit. I m a Finnish 22 year old male. I m interested in all things Germanic, especially the religious
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 1, 2004
                          Hi all,

                          I believe it would be polite to introduce myself a bit.

                          I'm a Finnish 22 year old male. I'm interested in all things Germanic,
                          especially the religious aspects, studying and Working with runes
                          being my main goals.

                          I've just joined the list today, but someone might remember me from
                          other lists as well. I'm not very well-read on Goths or their
                          language, but I've recently developed such an interest to the subject,
                          that after finding the list during a Google search I simply had to
                          join. I'm especially interested in learning more about the language,
                          but other topics concerning the Goths interest me as well. I'm hoping
                          to learn more from you, and possibly be able to contribute something
                          back to the list in the future.

                          ______________
                          Kveðja,
                          Rami Karhu
                        • tsvstani
                          As requested here is a brief introduction on myself. I am a linguist living in Florida, and a Cherokee Indian. I have an extensive background in Germanic
                          Message 12 of 30 , Aug 26, 2005
                            As requested here is a brief introduction on myself. I am a linguist
                            living in Florida, and a Cherokee Indian. I have an extensive
                            background in Germanic linguistics as well as other language. I am
                            currently working to revitalize my language, Cherokee, which luckily
                            has not suffered the same fate as Gothic. I think it would be quite
                            cool to create a modern version of the language, this actually would
                            not be that hard. We can use other Germanic languages to help coin
                            new words, since many of them have the same roots as Gothic
                            underlying a number of modern concepts. For example in German, one
                            of the words for telephone is 'Fernsprecher', 'that which speaks
                            far'. We could do something similar with Gothic to create a word for
                            telephone. Just an idea. I am currently working to compile all known
                            Gothic terms into a dictionary to be published in pdf document.
                            Unlike other dictionaries, words in this dictionary will actually be
                            listed IN THE GOTHIC alphabet, instead of transliterated. I dont get
                            why people do that. We have the same problem in Cherokee, where
                            people often do not even write the word in the Cherokee writing
                            system (a syllabary), but just give the transliteration in Latin
                            letters. I find this very annoying to say the least.


                            Fraternally,

                            Gotlvnvvsgi
                            (Justin L Smith)
                          • Fredrik
                            Hails! If you wanna make some neologisms, I d like to see those coz i m tryin to make a neoligism dictionary. I haven t any word for telephone yet, but your
                            Message 13 of 30 , Aug 30, 2005
                              Hails!

                              If you wanna make some neologisms, I'd like to see those coz i'm
                              tryin to make a neoligism dictionary. I haven't any word for
                              telephone yet, but your idea might work. I have already faírrasiuns
                              for TV. For new gothic words I use german and icelandic as model,
                              mostly.

                              /Fredrik

                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "tsvstani" <tsvstani@y...> wrote:
                              > As requested here is a brief introduction on myself. I am a
                              linguist
                              > living in Florida, and a Cherokee Indian. I have an extensive
                              > background in Germanic linguistics as well as other language. I am
                              > currently working to revitalize my language, Cherokee, which
                              luckily
                              > has not suffered the same fate as Gothic. I think it would be quite
                              > cool to create a modern version of the language, this actually
                              would
                              > not be that hard. We can use other Germanic languages to help coin
                              > new words, since many of them have the same roots as Gothic
                              > underlying a number of modern concepts. For example in German, one
                              > of the words for telephone is 'Fernsprecher', 'that which speaks
                              > far'. We could do something similar with Gothic to create a word
                              for
                              > telephone. Just an idea. I am currently working to compile all
                              known
                              > Gothic terms into a dictionary to be published in pdf document.
                              > Unlike other dictionaries, words in this dictionary will actually
                              be
                              > listed IN THE GOTHIC alphabet, instead of transliterated. I dont
                              get
                              > why people do that. We have the same problem in Cherokee, where
                              > people often do not even write the word in the Cherokee writing
                              > system (a syllabary), but just give the transliteration in Latin
                              > letters. I find this very annoying to say the least.
                              >
                              >
                              > Fraternally,
                              >
                              > Gotlvnvvsgi
                              > (Justin L Smith)
                            • llama_nom
                              Hey, can I have a go! fairweit, na. curiosity. gaumawairþs, a. noteworthy, interesting. glezamahts, fi. electrical power, electricity. hugisahts, fi.
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 30, 2005
                                Hey, can I have a go!

                                fairweit, na. curiosity.
                                gaumawairþs, a. noteworthy, interesting.
                                glezamahts, fi. electrical power, electricity.
                                hugisahts, fi. idea.
                                inwageins, fi/o. emotion.
                                qiusahts, fi. film, movie.
                                uswageins, fi/o. excitement.
                                spillawairþs, a. interesting, worth telling.
                              • Fredrik
                                Nice done. Good to have some more words to use. Some of them is similar to my own ideas but you also have some that I haven t thought about at all. Could you
                                Message 15 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
                                  Nice done. Good to have some more words to use.

                                  Some of them is similar to my own ideas but you also have some that I
                                  haven't thought about at all.

                                  Could you translate them litteraly and explain something about how
                                  you thought???

                                  For exampel. the word for electricity I guess you got it from
                                  icelandic. So did I anyway. But I don't know what the first word
                                  means, litteraly.

                                  /Fredrik

                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hey, can I have a go!
                                  >
                                  > fairweit, na. curiosity.
                                  > gaumawairþs, a. noteworthy, interesting.
                                  > glezamahts, fi. electrical power, electricity.
                                  > hugisahts, fi. idea.
                                  > inwageins, fi/o. emotion.
                                  > qiusahts, fi. film, movie.
                                  > uswageins, fi/o. excitement.
                                  > spillawairþs, a. interesting, worth telling.
                                • Francisc Czobor
                                  glezamahts is a loan translation into Gothic of the Icelandic word rafmagn electricity , literally amber s power (cf. Greek elektron amber ). mahts power
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Sep 7, 2005
                                    glezamahts is a loan translation into Gothic of the Icelandic word
                                    rafmagn "electricity", literally "amber's power" (cf. Greek
                                    elektron "amber").
                                    mahts "power" is an attested Gothic word;
                                    *gleza- "amber", is not attested, but reconstructed from the Common
                                    Germanic root *glesa-/gleza-, with the original meanig "amber" but
                                    which gave words like German Glas, English glass.

                                    Francisc

                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@h...> wrote:
                                    > Nice done. Good to have some more words to use.
                                    >
                                    > Some of them is similar to my own ideas but you also have some that
                                    I
                                    > haven't thought about at all.
                                    >
                                    > Could you translate them litteraly and explain something about how
                                    > you thought???
                                    >
                                    > For exampel. the word for electricity I guess you got it from
                                    > icelandic. So did I anyway. But I don't know what the first word
                                    > means, litteraly.
                                    >
                                    > /Fredrik
                                    >
                                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@o...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hey, can I have a go!
                                    > >
                                    > > fairweit, na. curiosity.
                                    > > gaumawairþs, a. noteworthy, interesting.
                                    > > glezamahts, fi. electrical power, electricity.
                                    > > hugisahts, fi. idea.
                                    > > inwageins, fi/o. emotion.
                                    > > qiusahts, fi. film, movie.
                                    > > uswageins, fi/o. excitement.
                                    > > spillawairþs, a. interesting, worth telling.
                                  • brianbeck_au
                                    ... It is indirectly attested in Tacitus Germania: ....sucinum, quod ipsi glesum vocant , ...amber, which they themselves (i.e. the Germans) call glesum .
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Sep 8, 2005
                                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > glezamahts is a loan translation into Gothic of the Icelandic word
                                      > rafmagn "electricity", literally "amber's power" (cf. Greek
                                      > elektron "amber").
                                      > mahts "power" is an attested Gothic word;
                                      > *gleza- "amber", is not attested, but reconstructed from the Common
                                      > Germanic root *glesa-/gleza-, with the original meanig "amber" but
                                      > which gave words like German Glas, English glass.
                                      >
                                      It is indirectly attested in Tacitus' Germania:
                                      "....sucinum, quod ipsi glesum vocant", "...amber, which they
                                      themselves (i.e. the Germans) call 'glesum'".
                                      Cheers,
                                      Brian
                                    • llama_nom
                                      ... And Pliny mentions amber islands called Glesiae (Naturalis historia IV, 103). Tacitus s neuter form agrees perfectly with OE glær. I gather that the
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Sep 8, 2005
                                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "brianbeck_au" <babeck@a...> wrote:

                                        > It is indirectly attested in Tacitus' Germania:
                                        > "....sucinum, quod ipsi glesum vocant", "...amber, which they
                                        > themselves (i.e. the Germans) call 'glesum'".



                                        And Pliny mentions amber islands called 'Glesiae' (Naturalis
                                        historia IV, 103). Tacitus's neuter form agrees perfectly with OE
                                        glær. I gather that the <e> in 'glesum' wasn't confined to East
                                        Germanic in the 1st century.



                                        > fair-weit, na. curiosity.

                                        Compare Go. 'fairweitl' "a spectacle"; OE 'fyrwit' "curiosity".



                                        > gauma-wairþs, a. noteworthy, interesting.

                                        Literally: "worthy of attention", "worth taking notice of".
                                        Go. 'gaumjan' "perceive"; Go. *'gauma', ON 'gaum' "attention" (see
                                        Koebler). Google says the Norse word was borrowed into Scots
                                        as 'gaum', from which comes the colloqial English word 'gormless'.
                                        Likewise, 'spilla-wairþs' "worth telling", "worthy of reporting".



                                        > in-wageins, fi/o. emotion.
                                        > us-wageins, fi/o. excitement.

                                        Literally "in-motion" and "out-motion" respectively. From the
                                        attested verbs 'inwagjan' and 'uswagjan'. Used transitively, both
                                        could mean "stir up", "excite" (e.g. a crowd).
                                        Relfexively, 'inwagjan sik' means "to be moved", "to feel deep
                                        emotion" (used of Jesus's rection to the death of Lazarus).



                                        > qiu-sahts, fi. film, movie.
                                        > hugi-sahts, fi. idea.

                                        Another calque on Icelandic: 'kvikmynd' "film"; 'hugmynd' "idea".
                                        Compare Go. 'fri-sahts' "image"; 'in-
                                        sahts' "statement"; 'qius' "alive"; 'hugs' "mind" (masculine i-stem).

                                        Llama Nom
                                      • David Kiltz
                                        ... Isn t _glær_ masculine and _glæs_ neuter ? As for , Caesar and, more importantly, Tacitus still have _Suebi_ and _Suebia_ (cf. German _Schwaben_)
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Sep 8, 2005
                                          On 08.09.2005, at 23:03, llama_nom wrote:

                                          > And Pliny mentions amber islands called 'Glesiae' (Naturalis
                                          > historia IV, 103). Tacitus's neuter form agrees perfectly with OE
                                          > glær. I gather that the <e> in 'glesum' wasn't confined to East
                                          > Germanic in the 1st century.

                                          Isn't _glær_ masculine and _glæs_ neuter ?
                                          As for <e>, Caesar and, more importantly, Tacitus still have _Suebi_
                                          and _Suebia_ (cf. German _Schwaben_) which also points to the
                                          preservation of PGerm. <e> or <æ>. The earliest attestation of <â>
                                          in West Germanic seems to be in Bavarian 170 AD, although the
                                          evidence is indirect, from sources actually dating to the 4th century
                                          AD. In North Germanic we find <â> from the earliest attestations. Cf.
                                          also such Finnish loanwords as _maanan-_ 'moon' (in _maanan-tai_
                                          'monday') vs a loan from Gothic: _miekka_ 'sword' (Goth. mêki (acc.)).

                                          David
                                        • OSCAR HERRERA
                                          i have not come across the gothic version of the word yesterday...could it be afdag....oscar ... And Pliny mentions amber islands called Glesiae (Naturalis
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Sep 8, 2005
                                            i have not come across the gothic version of the word yesterday...could it be afdag....oscar

                                            llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "brianbeck_au" wrote:

                                            > It is indirectly attested in Tacitus' Germania:
                                            > "....sucinum, quod ipsi glesum vocant", "...amber, which they
                                            > themselves (i.e. the Germans) call 'glesum'".



                                            And Pliny mentions amber islands called 'Glesiae' (Naturalis
                                            historia IV, 103). Tacitus's neuter form agrees perfectly with OE
                                            glær. I gather that the in 'glesum' wasn't confined to East
                                            Germanic in the 1st century.



                                            > fair-weit, na. curiosity.

                                            Compare Go. 'fairweitl' "a spectacle"; OE 'fyrwit' "curiosity".



                                            > gauma-wairþs, a. noteworthy, interesting.

                                            Literally: "worthy of attention", "worth taking notice of".
                                            Go. 'gaumjan' "perceive"; Go. *'gauma', ON 'gaum' "attention" (see
                                            Koebler). Google says the Norse word was borrowed into Scots
                                            as 'gaum', from which comes the colloqial English word 'gormless'.
                                            Likewise, 'spilla-wairþs' "worth telling", "worthy of reporting".



                                            > in-wageins, fi/o. emotion.
                                            > us-wageins, fi/o. excitement.

                                            Literally "in-motion" and "out-motion" respectively. From the
                                            attested verbs 'inwagjan' and 'uswagjan'. Used transitively, both
                                            could mean "stir up", "excite" (e.g. a crowd).
                                            Relfexively, 'inwagjan sik' means "to be moved", "to feel deep
                                            emotion" (used of Jesus's rection to the death of Lazarus).



                                            > qiu-sahts, fi. film, movie.
                                            > hugi-sahts, fi. idea.

                                            Another calque on Icelandic: 'kvikmynd' "film"; 'hugmynd' "idea".
                                            Compare Go. 'fri-sahts' "image"; 'in-
                                            sahts' "statement"; 'qius' "alive"; 'hugs' "mind" (masculine i-stem).

                                            Llama Nom





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                                          • llama_nom
                                            ... In OE, both neuter according to Bosworth & Toller. Maybe you re thinking of OIc. glær sea , masc. (could be related; but in this word, the isn t
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Sep 9, 2005
                                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, David Kiltz <derdron@g...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Isn't _glær_ masculine and _glæs_ neuter ?


                                              In OE, both neuter according to Bosworth & Toller. Maybe you're
                                              thinking of OIc. glær "sea", masc. (could be related; but in this
                                              word, the <r> isn't part of the root), versus OIc. 'gler' "glass",
                                              neuter.


                                              > In North Germanic we find <â> from the earliest attestations. Cf.
                                              > also such Finnish loanwords as _maanan-_ 'moon' (in _maanan-tai_
                                              > 'monday') vs a loan from Gothic: _miekka_ 'sword' (Goth. mêki
                                              (acc.)).


                                              Is there any way to tell when 'miekka' was borrowed, and thus
                                              whether it's more likely to be a loan from EG or NWG or PGmc, or
                                              whatever? And does the <a> in 'maanan-tai' mean that it was
                                              borrowed from a Proto-Norse (or NWG form) with the genitive
                                              *'ma:nan', as opposed to the form with /o/ (*'ma:no:n') that I
                                              assume gave rise to gave rise to Ic. mánudagur? I'm afraid I don't
                                              know anything about the history of Finnish sounds, so I don't want
                                              to jump to any conclusions...

                                              Lama Nom
                                            • llama_nom
                                              ... yesterday...could it be afdag....oscar Hi Oscar, If you delete the message you re replying to, when that isn t relevant to your own, it saves on space (and
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Sep 9, 2005
                                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
                                                > i have not come across the gothic version of the word
                                                yesterday...could it be afdag....oscar


                                                Hi Oscar,

                                                If you delete the message you're replying to, when that isn't
                                                relevant to your own, it saves on space (and makes it easier to read
                                                quickly). You can also change the "subject" line if you're starting
                                                a new topic, so that people looking through the archives can tell at
                                                a glance what your message is about.

                                                As far as I know, "yesterday" isn't attested. As you may know, the
                                                cognate of the English word does appear, but with the
                                                meaning "tomorrow" (GISTRADAGIS).

                                                'in þamma afardaga' = "the next day"
                                                'fairnin jera' = "last year"

                                                I suppose * 'fairnin daga' (not attested) might express the idea,
                                                but whether this is actually how Goths said "yesterday", I don't
                                                know.

                                                Llama Nom
                                              • OSCAR HERRERA
                                                doesnt af mean before as a cognate before other words....so i thought it mught mean af before and day dag ,before today or perhaps fauradag....im new to the
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Sep 9, 2005
                                                  doesnt af mean before as a cognate before other words....so i thought it mught mean af before and day dag ,before today or perhaps fauradag....im new to the computer so by replying directly to you means your the only one reading it...if so how am i to send my queries to everyone.....oscar

                                                  llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
                                                  > i have not come across the gothic version of the word
                                                  yesterday...could it be afdag....oscar


                                                  Hi Oscar,

                                                  If you delete the message you're replying to, when that isn't
                                                  relevant to your own, it saves on space (and makes it easier to read
                                                  quickly). You can also change the "subject" line if you're starting
                                                  a new topic, so that people looking through the archives can tell at
                                                  a glance what your message is about.

                                                  As far as I know, "yesterday" isn't attested. As you may know, the
                                                  cognate of the English word does appear, but with the
                                                  meaning "tomorrow" (GISTRADAGIS).

                                                  'in þamma afardaga' = "the next day"
                                                  'fairnin jera' = "last year"

                                                  I suppose * 'fairnin daga' (not attested) might express the idea,
                                                  but whether this is actually how Goths said "yesterday", I don't
                                                  know.

                                                  Llama Nom





                                                  You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links









                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • llama_nom
                                                  ... thought it mught mean af before and day dag ,before today or perhaps fauradag....im new to the computer so by replying directly to you means your the only
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Sep 9, 2005
                                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@s...> wrote:
                                                    > doesnt af mean before as a cognate before other words....so i
                                                    thought it mught mean af before and day dag ,before today or perhaps
                                                    fauradag....im new to the computer so by replying directly to you
                                                    means your the only one reading it...if so how am i to send my
                                                    queries to everyone.....oscar


                                                    > fauradag

                                                    Maybe, although by analogy with 'afardags', I wonder if the word
                                                    *'fauradags' (if it was used) might have meant "the previous
                                                    day", "the day before" (i.e. before another day, not necessarily
                                                    yesterday). Of course, since it's not recorded in the Gothic texts
                                                    that are currently known about, we can't know for sure.


                                                    > doesnt af mean before as a cognate before other words

                                                    I can't think of a word where 'af' appears as a prefix
                                                    meaning "before". If that's what you're asking? A "prefix" is
                                                    something attached to the beginning of a word, for example 'to-' in
                                                    the English word 'today', or 'ex-' in 'example', or 'afar' in
                                                    Gothic 'afardags'.

                                                    I don't know what you mean by "cognate" here. To me, "cognate"
                                                    refers to words that have a common origin in some ancestral
                                                    language. For example, English 'day' is COGNATE with
                                                    Gothic 'dags'. They each come from the hypothetical Proto Germanic
                                                    *'dagaz'. (Historical linguists use an asterisk to show that a word
                                                    or word-form is not actually recorded, excepts as a modern
                                                    reconstruction.) You can also used the word 'cognate' as a noun and
                                                    say: "The English word 'day' and the Gothic word 'dags' are
                                                    COGNATES."

                                                    If you're curious about the meaning of 'af' "off", "away" or any
                                                    other word you might find these dictionaries useful:

                                                    http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html
                                                    http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/
                                                    http://www.geocities.com/velikovski_project/dictionairygothicgerman.h
                                                    tml
                                                    http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

                                                    Here you can also browse lists of compound words where 'af' is a
                                                    prefix. In some, the meaning may diverge a bit from that of 'af'
                                                    when used as a preposition,
                                                    e.g. 'afetja' "glutton", 'afdrugkja' "drunkard". Is the prefix
                                                    suggestion that these people have gone "off" from the correct course
                                                    in life, that they have moved "away" from decent and respectable
                                                    behaviour? Or does it indicate a lost verb *'afetjan' "to eat all
                                                    up", "to gobble up", colloquially "to polish off"? In other words,
                                                    it's the food that's gone away. In favour of this idea is the fact
                                                    that 'afhvapjan' is "to choke", "to suffocate" (and thereby
                                                    do "away" with). Then there is a verb 'anadrigkan' "to get drunk"
                                                    (see Ephesians 5,18). As a preposition, the basic meaning of 'ana'
                                                    is "on", "onto", but as a prefix it's often more abstract.



                                                    > im new to the computer so by replying directly to you means your
                                                    the only one reading it...if so how am i to send my queries to
                                                    everyone.....oscar


                                                    Ah, you have my sympathies then: I'm not too clever with computers
                                                    myself! Don't worry, this last message of yours should have reached
                                                    everyone, because I'm reading it on the Yahoo Groups website [
                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/ ]. Personally, I read and
                                                    reply to messages using the website, but you can also receive them
                                                    as e-mails. I don't know which method you use?

                                                    Anyway, I probably didn't explain myself well enough. I didn't mean
                                                    to say that you shouldn't post messages to the whole group. Of
                                                    course you can! I just suggested that you could change the "subject
                                                    line" (that's the title of each message), if you wanted to make it
                                                    clear to us that you were starting a new topic. This is
                                                    the "subject" in the box at the top of the e-mail; or on the
                                                    website, it's the title that you click on to view the message. When
                                                    you reply, it appears in a separate box, above the box where the
                                                    message is. To change it, just move the cursor over it, click on
                                                    the box, then delete it with the "delete" key or the "backspace" key
                                                    on your keyboard.

                                                    You might also be able to send a completely new message to the group
                                                    address. Or, if you want to start a new topic, you could go to the
                                                    website (sign in) and click on "post".

                                                    To delete a large amount of text (a lot of words), for example
                                                    somebody else's previous message if that's not important to what you
                                                    want to write about, then you can move the cursor over it, hold down
                                                    the (left) button on the mouse, or near the touchpad, or whatever
                                                    you're using, and then move the mouse over it. This makes a solid
                                                    block of colour appear round the letters. Experiment until you have
                                                    that coloured block around the words you want to delete, then
                                                    press "delete" in your keyboard. Please excuse me if this sounds
                                                    really patronising, or if I've misunderstood your question. As I
                                                    say, I'm not very good with computers and often need people to
                                                    explain things to me. And if this is all much too complicated and
                                                    my explanation is too confusing, don't worry about that either. It
                                                    doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.

                                                    Llama Nom
                                                  • OSCAR HERRERA
                                                    your right as it would appear to be a prefix.....like uf or un or fra or us or ur...im sure all these prefixes had their own meaning...oscar ... thought it
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Sep 10, 2005
                                                      your right as it would appear to be a prefix.....like uf or un or fra or us or ur...im sure all these prefixes had their own meaning...oscar

                                                      llama_nom <600cell@...> wrote:--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
                                                      > doesnt af mean before as a cognate before other words....so i
                                                      thought it mught mean af before and day dag ,before today or perhaps
                                                      fauradag....im new to the computer so by replying directly to you
                                                      means your the only one reading it...if so how am i to send my
                                                      queries to everyone.....oscar


                                                      > fauradag

                                                      Maybe, although by analogy with 'afardags', I wonder if the word
                                                      *'fauradags' (if it was used) might have meant "the previous
                                                      day", "the day before" (i.e. before another day, not necessarily
                                                      yesterday). Of course, since it's not recorded in the Gothic texts
                                                      that are currently known about, we can't know for sure.


                                                      > doesnt af mean before as a cognate before other words

                                                      I can't think of a word where 'af' appears as a prefix
                                                      meaning "before". If that's what you're asking? A "prefix" is
                                                      something attached to the beginning of a word, for example 'to-' in
                                                      the English word 'today', or 'ex-' in 'example', or 'afar' in
                                                      Gothic 'afardags'.

                                                      I don't know what you mean by "cognate" here. To me, "cognate"
                                                      refers to words that have a common origin in some ancestral
                                                      language. For example, English 'day' is COGNATE with
                                                      Gothic 'dags'. They each come from the hypothetical Proto Germanic
                                                      *'dagaz'. (Historical linguists use an asterisk to show that a word
                                                      or word-form is not actually recorded, excepts as a modern
                                                      reconstruction.) You can also used the word 'cognate' as a noun and
                                                      say: "The English word 'day' and the Gothic word 'dags' are
                                                      COGNATES."

                                                      If you're curious about the meaning of 'af' "off", "away" or any
                                                      other word you might find these dictionaries useful:

                                                      http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html
                                                      http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/
                                                      http://www.geocities.com/velikovski_project/dictionairygothicgerman.h
                                                      tml
                                                      http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/language_resources.html

                                                      Here you can also browse lists of compound words where 'af' is a
                                                      prefix. In some, the meaning may diverge a bit from that of 'af'
                                                      when used as a preposition,
                                                      e.g. 'afetja' "glutton", 'afdrugkja' "drunkard". Is the prefix
                                                      suggestion that these people have gone "off" from the correct course
                                                      in life, that they have moved "away" from decent and respectable
                                                      behaviour? Or does it indicate a lost verb *'afetjan' "to eat all
                                                      up", "to gobble up", colloquially "to polish off"? In other words,
                                                      it's the food that's gone away. In favour of this idea is the fact
                                                      that 'afhvapjan' is "to choke", "to suffocate" (and thereby
                                                      do "away" with). Then there is a verb 'anadrigkan' "to get drunk"
                                                      (see Ephesians 5,18). As a preposition, the basic meaning of 'ana'
                                                      is "on", "onto", but as a prefix it's often more abstract.



                                                      > im new to the computer so by replying directly to you means your
                                                      the only one reading it...if so how am i to send my queries to
                                                      everyone.....oscar


                                                      Ah, you have my sympathies then: I'm not too clever with computers
                                                      myself! Don't worry, this last message of yours should have reached
                                                      everyone, because I'm reading it on the Yahoo Groups website [
                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/ ]. Personally, I read and
                                                      reply to messages using the website, but you can also receive them
                                                      as e-mails. I don't know which method you use?

                                                      Anyway, I probably didn't explain myself well enough. I didn't mean
                                                      to say that you shouldn't post messages to the whole group. Of
                                                      course you can! I just suggested that you could change the "subject
                                                      line" (that's the title of each message), if you wanted to make it
                                                      clear to us that you were starting a new topic. This is
                                                      the "subject" in the box at the top of the e-mail; or on the
                                                      website, it's the title that you click on to view the message. When
                                                      you reply, it appears in a separate box, above the box where the
                                                      message is. To change it, just move the cursor over it, click on
                                                      the box, then delete it with the "delete" key or the "backspace" key
                                                      on your keyboard.

                                                      You might also be able to send a completely new message to the group
                                                      address. Or, if you want to start a new topic, you could go to the
                                                      website (sign in) and click on "post".

                                                      To delete a large amount of text (a lot of words), for example
                                                      somebody else's previous message if that's not important to what you
                                                      want to write about, then you can move the cursor over it, hold down
                                                      the (left) button on the mouse, or near the touchpad, or whatever
                                                      you're using, and then move the mouse over it. This makes a solid
                                                      block of colour appear round the letters. Experiment until you have
                                                      that coloured block around the words you want to delete, then
                                                      press "delete" in your keyboard. Please excuse me if this sounds
                                                      really patronising, or if I've misunderstood your question. As I
                                                      say, I'm not very good with computers and often need people to
                                                      explain things to me. And if this is all much too complicated and
                                                      my explanation is too confusing, don't worry about that either. It
                                                      doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.

                                                      Llama Nom





                                                      You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to .
                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links









                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • llama_nom
                                                      Þatei was ( afar Fairnin daga, fram Pawlau Kartneins sunau: http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/poetry/lennon-mccartney.html ) Þuhta þan þreihsl mein swa fairra
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Sep 10, 2005
                                                        Þatei was

                                                        ( afar Fairnin daga, fram Pawlau Kartneins sunau:
                                                        http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/poetry/lennon-mccartney.html )

                                                        Þuhta þan þreihsl mein swa fairra mis,
                                                        iþ nu fanþ ik þatei wisiþ þis;
                                                        O, traua ik du þammei was.

                                                        Suns mis warþ; ni im manna saei faurþis was;
                                                        hahiþ ufar mis hva riqizis;
                                                        O þatei warþ, qam suns at mis.

                                                        Duhve mik bilaiþ si, ik ni wait;
                                                        Mis ni gataih.
                                                        Ik hva unraiht qaþ jah nu gairnja þizei was.

                                                        Friaþwa, fairna was mis swa azets dags;
                                                        þarf nu stadis þarei filhan mag
                                                        O, traua ik du þammei was.

                                                        Duhve mik bilaiþ si, ik ni wait;
                                                        Mis ni gataih.
                                                        Ik hva unraiht qaþ jah nu gairnja þizei was.

                                                        Friaþwa, fairna was mis swaleiks azets dags;
                                                        þarf nu stadis þarei filhan mag
                                                        O, traua ik du þammei was.


                                                        Notes, liberties, etc.

                                                        þatei wisiþ þis. Desperate partitive genitive for sake of rhyme.
                                                        Supposed to mean "that there is staying [something] of that / this",
                                                        i.e. that a certain amount of trouble is "here to stay". Apologies
                                                        to songwriters and 4th century bishops everywhere.

                                                        ...fairna was mis swaleiks azets dags. Intended to mean: "yesterday
                                                        was such an easy day for me." `Friaþwa', just setting the context
                                                        and not syntactically related. Ignoring the metre, the closest I
                                                        got was: "Fairnin daga friaþwa swaleiks azets mis was laiks."
                                                      • JoLynne
                                                        Thank you for accepting me as a member of your group. I am interested in the history of Bavaria, including the history of the ancient tribes of that area.
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Feb 25, 2008
                                                          Thank you for accepting me as a member of your group. I am interested
                                                          in the history of Bavaria, including the history of the ancient tribes
                                                          of that area. Mostly I am here to listen and learn.
                                                        • Madhukar Vichare
                                                          Most of my groups encourage members to share a bit about themselves, so I hope this is ok to post here. I just setup a profile on Grouply where you can see my
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Jun 2, 2008
                                                            Most of my groups encourage members to share a bit about themselves, so I hope
                                                            this is ok to post here.

                                                            I just setup a profile on Grouply where you can see my photos, friends,
                                                            interests, and a list of my groups. You can see my profile and set up your own
                                                            here: http://www.grouply.com/register.php?tmg=260177&vt=170949

                                                            Look forward to seeing your profile!

                                                            Madhukar

                                                            ====================
                                                            This message was posted by a fellow group member who uses Grouply instead of
                                                            email to access this group. Grouply blocks additional invitations from being
                                                            sent to this group by anyone for 30 days. Group owners can permanently block
                                                            future invitations using Grouply Owner Controls:
                                                            http://blog.grouply.com/protect#prevent_invites .



                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          • Fredrik
                                                            It s always nice with presentations so we can know a little about each other but why not just write some words here? ... themselves, so I hope ... friends, ...
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Jun 3, 2008
                                                              It's always nice with presentations so we can know a little about
                                                              each other but why not just write some words here?

                                                              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Madhukar Vichare
                                                              <madhukar_vichare@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > Most of my groups encourage members to share a bit about
                                                              themselves, so I hope
                                                              > this is ok to post here.
                                                              >
                                                              > I just setup a profile on Grouply where you can see my photos,
                                                              friends,
                                                              > interests, and a list of my groups. You can see my profile and set
                                                              up your own
                                                              > here: http://www.grouply.com/register.php?
                                                              tmg=260177&vt=170949
                                                              >
                                                              > Look forward to seeing your profile!
                                                              >
                                                              > Madhukar
                                                              >
                                                              > ====================
                                                              > This message was posted by a fellow group member who uses Grouply
                                                              instead of
                                                              > email to access this group. Grouply blocks additional invitations
                                                              from being
                                                              > sent to this group by anyone for 30 days. Group owners can
                                                              permanently block
                                                              > future invitations using Grouply Owner Controls:
                                                              > http://blog.grouply.com/protect#prevent_invites .
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                              >
                                                            • Madhukar Vichare
                                                              Finns (phiha means angry but wicked man), who intro­duced a birch-tree sweetener for gum, have found that the habit of chewing sticky lumps dates back
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Jun 5, 2008
                                                                Finns
                                                                (phiha means angry but wicked man), who intro­duced a birch-tree
                                                                sweetener for gum, have found that the habit of chewing sticky lumps dates back
                                                                thousands of years. Last month, students in west­ern Finland found a piece of Stone Age birch-bark tar, be­lieved
                                                                to have been used for chewing and to fix broken ar­rowheads or clay dishes, ar­chaeologists
                                                                said. "Most likely the lump was used as an antique kind of chewing
                                                                gum," said Sami Vil­jamaa, an archaeologist who led the dig near Oulu, (Aulanam - Lake) north of Helsinki (helihi -the sun; sina – a period of “No Moon” night
                                                                when the small part of Moon is visible at certain latitudes). "But its main pur­pose was to fix things."
                                                                Vilja­maa said the piece of Neolith­ic gum was found among arti­facts in a
                                                                Stone Age village at the Kierikki (Kairavaḥ - Moon-lit-Night) Stone Age Center. "It's somewhere between 5,500 and 6,000 years
                                                                old," he said. The ancient Finnish habit of chewing gum surged in the
                                                                1980s when scientists discov­ered that gum containing xyl­itol prevented tooth
                                                                decay.

                                                                 

                                                                Egyptian
                                                                archaeolo­gists have found what they said could be the oldest hu­man footprint
                                                                in history in the country's western desert, the Arab country's antiquities'
                                                                chief said. "This could go back about two million years," said Zahi
                                                                Hawass, the sec­retary general of the Egypt­ian supreme council of an­tiquities.
                                                                "It could be the most im­portant discovery in Egypt," he said. Archaeologists found the footprint,
                                                                imprinted on mud and then hardened into rock, while exploring a pre­historic
                                                                site in Shiwa (Shiva in search of water for cooling down), a desert
                                                                oasis. Scientists are using car­bon tests on plants found in the rock to
                                                                determine its ex­act age, Hawass said. Khaled Saad, the direc­tor of prehistory
                                                                at the council, said that based on the age of the rock where the footprint was
                                                                found, it could date back even fur­ther than the renowned 3­million year-old
                                                                fossil Lucy, the partial skeleton of an ape-man, found in Ethiopia in 1974. Most archaeological in­terest in Egypt is focused on the time of the pharaohs. Previously,
                                                                the earliest human archaeological evi­dence from Egypt dated back around 200,000 years, Saad said.

                                                                 

                                                                I
                                                                have highlighted my views of looking at the old concepts with new insights in
                                                                view of the new knowledge: The subject of INDOLOGY will be meaningful.              Madhukar Vichare.

                                                                 

                                                                Anandamurti
                                                                JI wrote for the “Speaking Tree” (On Religion):

                                                                 

                                                                Taraka
                                                                (Tarkaha
                                                                or Taaraka) Brahma wants to eman­cipate living beings, but only those who want
                                                                liberation get liberation. When you long for liberation, the search leads you
                                                                to the Sadguru. Every one of us has a fixed role to play. You are a character
                                                                in a divine drama. The composer of this drama is Taaraka Brahma. An episode in
                                                                the Maha­bharata is instructive in this regard: After battle, the battle­ground
                                                                at Kurukṣetra became a cremation ground. At the end of the war
                                                                some people came there from the Kauravas' side. Among them were women and a few
                                                                elderly men. Gandhaari, mother of the Kauravas, was also there. Kuntī, mother of the Pandavas, and Krushna, Pandavas'
                                                                friend, were present as well, along with the visually challenged Dhrutarashtra.
                                                                Everyone was weeping. Gandhaari had lost hundred sons in the war. Krushna
                                                                approached Gandhaari and said: "Mother, why are you weeping? Death is a
                                                                naturallay. One who is born will die. So why cry?" Gandhaari replied:
                                                                "Yes Krushna, you have come here to console me, but I ask you, behind this
                                                                great event whose mind was at work? Who was the author of this great plan? Was
                                                                it not you?" Krushna replied: "Those who have committed injustice and
                                                                sinned have been punished. What can I do about that?" Gandhaari said to Krushna:
                                                                "Everything you have said up un­til now is quite correct. From the worldly
                                                                point of view, everything that has happened until now is as it should be,
                                                                because every action must have its reaction. But my point is: You yourself are
                                                                Taaraka Brahma; your duty is to liberate living beings. You can give libera­tion
                                                                to whomsoever you please.

                                                                 

                                                                'As
                                                                Taaraka Brahma you can create and destroy as you wish. In this drama of yours
                                                                you have created characters who are honest, ideological people. If one does
                                                                virtuous deeds then one gets liberation. To teach the people you create these
                                                                kinds of characters. And you also create sinful charac­ters to show how much a
                                                                person degenerates because of sinful behavior. In this drama, you could have
                                                                had my hundred sons play roles of righteousness and the Pandavas play roles of
                                                                unright­eousness, if you had so wished. In that case my hundred sons would have
                                                                gotten salvation. Now, after having made me cry, you come to console me!" Taaraka
                                                                Brahma for­mulates his plan in order to create situations that lend themselves
                                                                to illustrating values, to create awareness. For instance, if one engages in
                                                                honest work then one moves towards eternal truth, and if one performs dishonest
                                                                work then one moves towards untruth. Thereafter comes the other part of the
                                                                story.

                                                                 

                                                                Gandhaari
                                                                said: "Kṛṣṇa, give me permission to curse you". Krushna
                                                                replied: "Okay, curse me. I give you permission". Gandhaari cursed
                                                                him: "Just as my entire lineage has been destroyed before my very eyes,
                                                                may your Yaadava lineage be destroyed before your very eyes as well".
                                                                "Let it be so", Krushna replied. Remember always that we are only
                                                                actors in a universal drama. This is not our real identity. Some­one may play
                                                                the role of a king, but he might not even have two hand­fuls of rice in his
                                                                house. Someone plays the role of a poor man, but in real life he may be very
                                                                rich. We ought to remember that we are only playing specific roles in a cosmic
                                                                drama. Act according to the role given. This is a person's duty. This is a
                                                                wrong note to end the moral of the “Cosmic Drama” – Man must keep on bettering
                                                                his lot; learning new things, and keeping himself fit to fight against the
                                                                odds. He must use his intelligence and apply his mind. Krushna is not
                                                                coming to salvage your soul; man has to come up to the expectation of the Super
                                                                Personality of Godhead- it is symbolic, you have to become Krushna.

                                                                 

                                                                Uyuni
                                                                is in Bolivia: On the edge of the world's biggest salt desert,
                                                                villagers optimistical­ly scrawl "salt for sale" signs on their mud
                                                                brick homes. In backyards, mountains of the stuff are heaped like year-­round
                                                                snow drifts. But mining salt is no longer the only way to survive in this cold,
                                                                arid corner of south­western Bolivia. The Salar de Uyuni is becoming a must-see for
                                                                adventurous visitors to South
                                                                America, changing at least
                                                                some fortunes in the poor village of Colchani. "There's nothing here apart from salt... Tourists used to arrive
                                                                and they wouldn't buy anything, so we thought, 'How can we improve
                                                                things?" said Fermin Villca, who now sells ashtrays and llama fig­urines
                                                                carved from salt stone. Stretched between distant Andean peaks like a shimmer­ing
                                                                white carpet, the Salar de Uyuni is home to pink flamin­gos, 1,000-year-old
                                                                cacti, rare hummingbirds and hotels built entirely from blocks of salt. Earlier
                                                                this year, leading travel publisher Rough Guides listed the Salar as one of its
                                                                top 25 wonders of the world, along side far better-known attrac­tions such as
                                                                the Taj Mahal, Grand Canyon and Great
                                                                Wall of China.

                                                                 

                                                                A
                                                                gargantuan explosion ripped apart a star perhaps 150 times more mas­sive than
                                                                our Sun in a rela­tively nearby galaxy in the most powerful and brightest
                                                                supernova ever observed, as­tronomers said. And there is one such star in our
                                                                own Milky Way galaxy that appears to be on the brink of dying in just
                                                                such a super­nova. The exploding star's dra­matic death may have come in a rare
                                                                type of supernova reserved for "freakishly mas­sive" stars that
                                                                astronomers had speculated about but nev­er previously witnessed. The
                                                                supernova, designat­ed as SN 2006gy, occurred 240 million light years
                                                                away in a galaxy called NGC 1260, and was studied using observa­tions from NASA's
                                                                orbiting Chandra X-ray Observatory as well as earthbound optical telescopes.. The
                                                                explosion occurred long ago but was detected last year after its light traveled
                                                                many trillions of kilometers before it could be observed from Earth. "That
                                                                sounds far away but it's actually quite nearby on the vast scale of the uni­verse,"
                                                                astronomer Nathan Smith of the University of California at Berkeley, who led the research, said. A supernova marks a star's
                                                                death in a spectacular explosion. Scientists say these events playa crucial role
                                                                in creating heavy ele­ments through nuclear fu­sion and synthesis and then
                                                                expelling them into space, seeding the cosmos with metals.

                                                                 

                                                                The
                                                                travel of Manu and the great Fish, a symbolic story of the Puraana, the event
                                                                that occurred 10,000 BCE (ca): An
                                                                event like the one involving Noah's ark is depicted in- almost every ­ ancient
                                                                civilization or religion: Naunet in Egyptian; Manu in Hindu; Nuwa in Chinese;
                                                                Ziusudra in Sumerian; Atra-Hasis, Utnapishtim and Xisuthrus in Babylonian;
                                                                Deucalion in Greek; and Toptlipetlocali in Toltec. Noah is also mentioned often
                                                                in the Qumran, referred to as the prophet ‘Nuh’. All the names are
                                                                the corruption of original Sanskrit words used in Vedic rituals by the Āryans.

                                                                 

                                                                For
                                                                many scientists, the evi­dence that moral reasoning is a result of physical
                                                                traits that evolve along with everything else is just more evidence against
                                                                the exis­tence of the soul, or of a God to imbue humans with souls. For
                                                                many believers, particularly in the US, the findings show the er­ror, even wickedness, of
                                                                viewing the world in strictly material terms. And they provide for the­ologians
                                                                a growing impetus to rec­oncile the existence of the soul with the growing
                                                                evidence that humans are not, physically or even mentally, in a class by
                                                                themselves. The idea that human minds are the product of evolution is
                                                                "unassailable fact," the journal Nature said this month in an ed­itorial
                                                                on new findings on the physical basis of moral thought. A headline on the
                                                                editorial drove the point home: "With all defer­ence to the sensibilities
                                                                of reli­gious people, the idea that man was created in the image of God can
                                                                surely be put aside." Or as V S Ramachandran, a brain scientist at the University of California, San Diego, said in an interview, there may be soul in the sense
                                                                of "the universal spir­it of the cosmos," but the soul as it is
                                                                usually spoken of, "an im­material spirit that occupies in­dividual brains
                                                                and that only evolved in humans - all that is complete nonsense." Belief
                                                                in that kind of soul "is basically super­stition," he said.

                                                                 

                                                                Greenland
                                                                was home to a number of Paleo-Eskimo cultures in prehistory, the latest of which disappeared around the year 200
                                                                AD. The island seems to have been uninhabited for some eight centuries till
                                                                Icelandic settlers led by Norwegian Erik the Red found the land when they
                                                                arrived in 982 AD. They thrived here for 450 years, after which they
                                                                mysteriously vanished.

                                                                 ­

                                                                The
                                                                term tetra-pod, from the Greek 'tetrapoda,' (Sanskrit-“totra-vetram”- weapon of
                                                                Viṣṇu- + pada means feet) refers to vertebrate animals
                                                                having four feet, legs or leg-like appendages. Amphibians, lizards and mammals
                                                                are all tetra-pods. The term auto-pod, however, is used to refer to animals
                                                                whose limbs are subdivided into hands and feet, example: Humans.

                                                                 

                                                                The
                                                                researchers therefore believe that the capability of building limbs with
                                                                fingers and toes existed for a long period of time, but it took a set of
                                                                environmental triggers to make use of that capability. "Animals in the
                                                                Late Devonian period (385 to 359 million years ago) acquired limbs with fingers
                                                                using this primitive design, largely because their ecosystem - the small
                                                                streams that they lived in - was new," Shubin said "It had the tools,
                                                                but it needed the opportuni­ty as well." In yet another study on what
                                                                killed off the beasts of the Ice Age, researchers said that an extraterrestrial
                                                                object with a three-mile girth might have ex­ploded over southern Canada nearly
                                                                13,000 years ago, wiping out an ancient Stone Age culture as well as mega-fauna
                                                                like mastodons and mammoths. The blast could be to blame for a ma­jor cold
                                                                spell called the Younger Dryas that occurred at the end of the Pleistocene
                                                                Epoch, a period of time spanning from about 1.8 million years ago to 11,500
                                                                years ago. Research, presented at a meeting of the American Geophysical Union
                                                                (AGU) in Acapulco, Mexico this week, could shed light on major questions about
                                                                the mega-fauna extinction, the disappear­ance of the Clovis people, and an
                                                                abrupt climate change, Live-science reported. "Based on the distribution
                                                                of mate­rial, it looks like this impact probably occurred in southern Canada near the Great Lakes, over
                                                                what at that time would have been a major glacier, the Laurentide ice
                                                                sheet," said one of the presen­ters, Richard Firestone of Lawrence Berkeley
                                                                National Laboratory. They couldn't find a distinct crater, suggesting the comet
                                                                burst in the air rather than slamming into Earth. Even an airburst should leave
                                                                its mark, so the scientists think the Laurentide Ice Sheet absorbed much of the
                                                                impact.

                                                                 

                                                                A
                                                                huge flood hundreds of thou­sands of years ago cut Britain off from the rest of Europe and turned it into an
                                                                island, according to a new study that of­fers clues to how England was settled.
                                                                Using high-resolution sonar waves, researchers mapped the floor of the Eng­lish Channel and turned up images of an enormous valley tens of
                                                                kilometers wide and up to 50 meters deep carved into chalk bedrock. The images
                                                                were similar to an area in the state of Washington where a mega-flood some 15,000 years ago also created
                                                                a landscape of distinctive land formations - indicating that the same thing
                                                                happened in Britain, the re­searchers said. Scientists said the study
                                                                provides the best evidence yet in the de­bate seeking to explain how the English Channel formed and cut Britain off from the rest of Europe.
                                                                "It showed us for the first time the ex­istence of this huge valley in the
                                                                centre of the English Channel," said Sanjeev Gupta, a researcher at Imperial
                                                                College London.

                                                                 

                                                                Mexican
                                                                archaeologists using ground-penetrating radar have detected underground
                                                                chambers they believe contain the remains of Emperor Ahuizotl, who ruled
                                                                the Aztecs when Columbus landed in the Americas. Ahuizotl (ah-WEE-zoh-tuhl), an empire-builder who
                                                                extended the Aztecs' reach as far as Guatemala, in South
                                                                America, was the last
                                                                emperor to complete his rule before the Spanish Conquest. Accounts written by
                                                                Spanish priests suggest the said area was used by the Aztecs to cremate and
                                                                bury their rulers. But no tomb of an Aztec ruler has ever been found. Now,
                                                                archaeologists said that they have located what appears to be a
                                                                Six-foot-by-six-foot entryway into a tomb about 15 feet below ground, off Mexico City's Zocalo plaza. The passage is filled with water,
                                                                rocks and mud, forcing work­ers to dig delicately. Later this year, they hope
                                                                to enter the inner chambers - a damp, low-ceilinged space - and discover the
                                                                ashes of Ahuizotl, who was likely cremated on a funeral pyre in 1502. Because
                                                                no Aztec royal tomb has ever been found, the archaeologists are literally
                                                                digging into the unknown. Radar indicates the tomb has up to four chambers, and
                                                                scientists think they will find a host of elaborate offerings to the gods on
                                                                the floor. "He must have been buried in solemn ceremony with rich
                                                                offerings, like vases and ornaments," said Luis Alberto Martos, director
                                                                of archaeological studies at Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History.

                                                                 

                                                                All
                                                                signs found so far point to Ahuizotl. The site lies direct­ly below a huge,
                                                                recently discovered stone monolith carved with a representation of Tlaltecuhtli
                                                                (tlahl-tay-KOO-tlee), the Aztec god of the earth. Depicted as a woman with huge
                                                                claws, the fearsome Tlaltecuhtli was believed to devour the dead and then give
                                                                them new life. In the claw of her right foot, the god holds a rabbit and 10
                                                                dots, indicating the date "10 Rabbit" - 1502, the year of Ahuizotl's
                                                                death. "Our hypothesis is precisely that this is probably the tomb of
                                                                Ahuizotl," said Leonardo Lopez Lujan, the lead government archaeologist on
                                                                the project. "Imagine it - this wasn't just any high-ranking man. The
                                                                Aztecs were the most powerful society of their time," Martos said.
                                                                "That's why Ahuizotl's tomb down there is so important."        

                                                                 

                                                                The
                                                                Aztecs is a term used for the Mesoamerican peoples of Mexico that thrived before the advent of Christopher
                                                                Columbus in the Americas. Aztec
                                                                culture had rich and complex mythological and religious traditions. For
                                                                Europeans, the most striking element of the Aztec culture was the practice of
                                                                human sacrifice which was conducted throughout Mesoamerica prior to the Spanish conquest Greenland was home to a number of Paleo-Eskimo cultures in prehistory, the
                                                                latest of which disappeared around the year 200 AD. The island seems to have
                                                                been uninhabited for some eight centuries till Icelandic settlers led by
                                                                Norwegian Erik the Red found the land when they arrived in 982 AD. They thrived
                                                                here for 450 years, after which they mysteriously vanished. Archeologists have
                                                                discovered what they think are ruins of an Aztec pyramid razed by vengeful
                                                                Spanish conquerors in what is now one of Mexico City's most crime-ridden districts. Construction workers
                                                                un­earthed ancient walls in the busy Iztapalapa neighbor­hood in June, and
                                                                government archeologists said on Wednes­day that they believe they may be part
                                                                of the main pyramid of the Aztec city, destroyed by conquistador Hernan Cortes
                                                                in the 16th century.

                                                                 

                                                                In
                                                                the Gothic Bible, 'þiudans' is used of a king who goes to war:



                                                                aiþþau hvas þiudans gaggands stigqan wiþra anþarana þiudan (vipra praana-yukta pinda) du wiganna, niu
                                                                gasitands faurþis þankeiþ, siaiu mahteigs miþ taihun þusundjom gamotjan þamma
                                                                miþ twaim tigum þusundjo gaggandin ana sik?



                                                                Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first,
                                                                and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh
                                                                against him with twenty thousand?

                                                                Luke 14:31.



                                                                'frauja' (Praanaaha) "lord"
                                                                is also used with no Greek model for the noun in a military context (II Tim
                                                                2:4). I'm not sure whether 'reiks' is used anywhere in an explicitly military
                                                                context.



                                                                I am not a linguist but as far as I know they were reiks also when leading a
                                                                war expedition. Their sacral king, however, was never allowed to leave his own
                                                                territory when the people was permanently settled, but had to order a reiks (Rushis
                                                                –wandering Sages) to take command. During the wandering, according to Getica at
                                                                least, the þiuðans was sacral king and he used 'kings of the army' to lead
                                                                parts of the united army (like e.g. Cniva as Wolfram suggests) but I do not
                                                                know their title in Gothic.

                                                                 

                                                                The clue to the root of the
                                                                hypothetical Gothic form though is in Old Norse 'ugla' and especially (Old) Swedish 'uggla'. These show a sound change common to North and East Germanic
                                                                whereby 'ww' > 'ggw', as described by Wright. In Old Norse, the medial vowel
                                                                of the suffix has been lost, which is normal, but presumably it would have been
                                                                present in Gothic (compare 'mawilo'
                                                                "little girl" San – mahilaa meaning a woman), and the 'w' has
                                                                been dropped, as always between two consonants. So, I'd reconstruct Gothic
                                                                *'uggwilo': weak noun, feminine on-stem, i.e. declined like 'mawilo', 'tuggo',
                                                                etc. One last clue is the Catalan word 'òliba', (San. – Ulooka) which it's been suggested may be derived from the
                                                                Gothic word for owl

                                                                2.
                                                                örn "eagle" (San. – utkrosha)





                                                                Elof
                                                                Hellquist's Svensk etymologisk ordbok. 6 is especially interesting; both roots
                                                                are attested in Gothic. This would make a very handy addition to our
                                                                reconstructed "modern" vocabulary. There

                                                                is a Gothic derivative from the same root as 2 recorded, namely 'ara' "eagle",
                                                                cognate with Old Norse 'ari', but since ON had 'örn' (San. – “ara” one going with speed) there's no reason Gothic couldn't
                                                                have had both words too.

                                                                 

                                                                Ah,
                                                                no need for embarrassment! I was just thinking of it as an exercise in phonetic
                                                                reconstruction. In other words, what would a Gothic cognate of (word descended
                                                                from the same Proto-Germanic

                                                                ancestor as) Modern English 'wood' look like? But you're right 'triu' does mean
                                                                "a tree" (San. – “taru” means
                                                                tree also wood,) or "a stick". I guess that illustrates another issue
                                                                in reconstruction: where a word already exists in the same semantic field, how
                                                                might that have related to the meaning of a hypothetical, reconstructed Gothic
                                                                cognate? Does that make sense?



                                                                In this case, it seems that the better attested early Germanic languages did
                                                                have a few partly overlapping words in this semantic field, e.g. Old Norse has a word 'viðr' which is
                                                                cognate with 'wood', as well as a word 'tré' congate with English 'tree'.
                                                                So there's nothing improbably about supposing Gothic had cognates for both,
                                                                even though only one, 'triu', is recorded.





                                                                The
                                                                gist is this: initial 'b' in English corresponds to Gothic 'b' (as in Go.
                                                                'broþar' : Modern English 'brother' Sanskrit
                                                                is “Bhaartru”)-- no catch there. I found a comparison chart but it didn't
                                                                tell me what to do with initial B, medial TH, or final -M, let alone the
                                                                morpheme -AM, so I'm a little lost right now.

                                                                other Indo-European languages (e.g. Latin 2nd declension nouns ending
                                                                in -um, Greek in -on, Sanskrit in -am).

                                                                The
                                                                3rd person singular

                                                                (he/she/it does/is doing smth) ends in –iþ for the verbs used in the story.
                                                                "He's sleeping" is 'slepiþ' (from 'slepan' "to sleep" San. Root is “svap” - svapiti). The
                                                                last sentence is in subjunctive, but you can have a simpler translation.

                                                                 

                                                                Some vocabulary you need: early morning – air uhtwon clothes – wasti  (Sanskrit
                                                                – Vastra) F.-jo (that is, feminine jo-stem) staff – hrugga F.-o to push –
                                                                stigqan to get awake – gawaknan to climb up – ussteigan to look like – wisan
                                                                galeiks (lit. "to be like") + noun in dative ("he's looking like
                                                                A." is 'ist galeiks A.'). Don't forget to put the A. ("owl" in
                                                                our case) in dative.

                                                                 

                                                                That
                                                                is, "I take" is 'nima' (from
                                                                'niman' "to take" Sanskrit word “nirgam” means get off, get away from
                                                                – ni-sru). The 3rd person singular (he/she/it does/is doing smth) ends in
                                                                –iþ for the verbs used in the story. "He's sleeping" is 'slepiþ'
                                                                (from 'slepan' "to sleep"). The last sentence is in subjunctive, but
                                                                you can have a simpler translation.





                                                                early
                                                                morning – air uhtwon; Sanskrit – ushas;






                                                                to
                                                                push – stigqan; Sanskrit – saahasin; to
                                                                climb up – ussteigan, San. – upari gama;

                                                                *kiggwan, OE cíowan, (San. –
                                                                ‘charvanam”) ON tyggva? 6. däggdjur "mammal"





                                                                So
                                                                you are through with your Aztec torment,
                                                                unlike me. Everyone saying that Gothic is difficult should be immediately
                                                                reminded of the existence of Nahuatl.
                                                                A couple remarks. Ilnâmiqui is "to remember", right? Niquilnâmiqui –  þis (or þata) [ik] ga-man? Iirc 'cân' can be
                                                                both directional and stative. I mean weren't it better to say 'þarei' with
                                                                'ainshun ni gaswiltiþ' and 'manna sigis nimiþ'? Is it the 'îchân tônatiuh', the
                                                                place? An interesting parallel between 'in yâômiqui' and einherjar...





                                                                Irish
                                                                Suibhne geilt living on trees and perhaps also the Nahuatl (Aztec) word for "demon" (= Go. skohsl) –
                                                                tlâcatecolôtl, lit. "man-owl", used in the Anales de Cuauhtitlan of
                                                                the gods whom human sacrifices were due to.





                                                                 



                                                                --- On Tue, 3/6/08, Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
                                                                From: Fredrik <gadrauhts@...>
                                                                Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Introduction
                                                                To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                                                                Date: Tuesday, 3 June, 2008, 8:05 PM











                                                                It's always nice with presentations so we can know a little about

                                                                each other but why not just write some words here?



                                                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com, Madhukar Vichare

                                                                <madhukar_vichare@ ...> wrote:

                                                                >

                                                                > Most of my groups encourage members to share a bit about

                                                                themselves, so I hope

                                                                > this is ok to post here.

                                                                >

                                                                > I just setup a profile on Grouply where you can see my photos,

                                                                friends,

                                                                > interests, and a list of my groups. You can see my profile and set

                                                                up your own

                                                                > here: http://www.grouply. com/register. php?

                                                                tmg=260177&amp; vt=170949

                                                                >

                                                                > Look forward to seeing your profile!

                                                                >

                                                                > Madhukar

                                                                >

                                                                > ============ ========

                                                                > This message was posted by a fellow group member who uses Grouply

                                                                instead of

                                                                > email to access this group. Grouply blocks additional invitations

                                                                from being

                                                                > sent to this group by anyone for 30 days. Group owners can

                                                                permanently block

                                                                > future invitations using Grouply Owner Controls:

                                                                > http://blog. grouply.com/ protect#prevent_ invites .

                                                                >

                                                                >

                                                                >

                                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                                >



























                                                                Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have it on http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/bestofyahoo/

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