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[gothic-l] Attila & Kreka

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  • Francisc Czobor
    Hails izwis allaim! It seems to me that what we know about the Huns came to us mostly through East-Germanic intermediates. This is reflected also by the names
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 6, 1999
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      Hails izwis allaim!

      It seems to me that what we know about the Huns came to us mostly through
      East-Germanic intermediates. This is reflected also by the names of their
      personalities, as we know them.
      Attila is a pure Gothic word, meaning "little father" (Gothic diminutive
      of the Gothic word atta "father"). For this fact I read about two
      explanations:

      1. "Attila" was a nickname given to the Hunic ruler, by its East-Germanic
      subjects. This is not uncommon in the eastern despotisms. For instance,
      the nickname of the Czars and also for Stalin was "papasha", which means
      "little father" in Russian.

      2. "Attila" is an East-Germanic phonetic adaptation (folk-etymology) of
      the real name of the Hunic ruler.

      Regarding Attila's main wife, Kreka, her names means simply "Greek woman"
      in Gothic (feminine of Kreks "Greek"). Again, we don't know the real name
      of the person, but only the nickname given by the East-Germanic subjects
      of the Huns.

      There are also other Hunic names which sound very Gothic to me: Rugila
      (Attila's uncle), Ildiko (Attila's last bride, form Hild-).

      Francisc
    • Sean Crist
      ... Hmm! Any connection with Krimhild of das Nibelungenlied, I wonder? (She was the wife of Sigfried who later went to live in Attila s court.) / __ __
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 7, 1999
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        On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Francisc Czobor wrote:

        > There are also other Hunic names which sound very Gothic to me: Rugila
        > (Attila's uncle), Ildiko (Attila's last bride, form Hild-).

        Hmm! Any connection with Krimhild of das Nibelungenlied, I wonder? (She
        was the wife of Sigfried who later went to live in Attila's court.)

        \/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kurisuto@...)
        --- | | \ / http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/
        _| ,| ,| -----
        _| ,| ,| [_]
        | | | [_]
      • regula
        ... Dear Mr.Czobor, if you are really interested about Huns names you just have to learn more about bulgarian history.It will help all of the members of the
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 7, 1999
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          Francisc Czobor wrote:
          >
          > Hails izwis allaim!
          >
          > It seems to me that what we know about the Huns came to us mostly through
          > East-Germanic intermediates. This is reflected also by the names of their
          > personalities, as we know them.
          > Attila is a pure Gothic word, meaning "little father" (Gothic diminutive
          > of the Gothic word atta "father"). For this fact I read about two
          > explanations:
          >
          > 1. "Attila" was a nickname given to the Hunic ruler, by its East-Germanic
          > subjects. This is not uncommon in the eastern despotisms. For instance,
          > the nickname of the Czars and also for Stalin was "papasha", which means
          > "little father" in Russian.
          >
          > 2. "Attila" is an East-Germanic phonetic adaptation (folk-etymology) of
          > the real name of the Hunic ruler.
          >
          > Regarding Attila's main wife, Kreka, her names means simply "Greek woman"
          > in Gothic (feminine of Kreks "Greek"). Again, we don't know the real name
          > of the person, but only the nickname given by the East-Germanic subjects
          > of the Huns.
          >
          > There are also other Hunic names which sound very Gothic to me: Rugila
          > (Attila's uncle), Ildiko (Attila's last bride, form Hild-).
          >
          > Francisc
        • Francisc Czobor
          Indeed, it is considered that this (Alanic? Germanic?) princess (H)ildiko was the prototype of Krimhild of the Nibelungenlied. Francisc
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 7, 1999
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            Indeed, it is considered that this (Alanic? Germanic?) princess (H)ildiko
            was the prototype of Krimhild of the Nibelungenlied.

            Francisc

            On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Sean Crist wrote:

            >
            >
            > On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Francisc Czobor wrote:
            >
            > > There are also other Hunic names which sound very Gothic to me: Rugila
            > > (Attila's uncle), Ildiko (Attila's last bride, form Hild-).
            >
            > Hmm! Any connection with Krimhild of das Nibelungenlied, I wonder? (She
            > was the wife of Sigfried who later went to live in Attila's court.)
            >
          • Francisc Czobor
            Dear Mr. Mihov Thank you very much for your comments. I apologize for my imprecision, but I wrote the message Attila & Kreka somehow in hurry, and don t
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 9, 1999
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              Dear Mr. Mihov

              Thank you very much for your comments.

              I apologize for my imprecision, but I wrote the message "Attila & Kreka"
              somehow in hurry, and don't forget that I am only an AMATEUR in history,
              philology, linguistics, etc. (my background is chemistry). Of course I'm
              interested in the subject of the Huns, since I'm of HUN(garian) origin
              (this is, of course, a joke inspired by the legend of kinship between the
              Huns and the Hungarians). The two explanations regarding the Gothic
              appearance of "Attila" are not produced by me, but I found them in some
              books. I knew about Avithohol (I sow his name spelled also "Avitochol"),
              ancestor of Asparuh, and that he could be identified with Attila. But when
              I wrote the message, I had in mind only the variants Ethela or Etele (in
              Hungarian), Ecil or Etzel (in MHG), and Atli (in Old Icel.), all these
              being phonetic adaptation in these languages of the word "Attila".
              Avithohol/Avthoola seems to be not derived from Attila; rather both are
              derived from a common source - the original Hunic form of the name. Thus,
              I think that we can agree with the fact that as an explanation for the
              Gothic resonance of "Attila", we can retain the second variant: the
              original name was transformed by the Germanic subjects of the Huns through
              folk-etymology.

              Regarding the Czars, I had to be more explicit indeed, because I was
              referring to the Russian Czars.

              I am an amateur, but I am not such an ignorant as you believe:

              I knew that the word "czar" comes ultimately from "caesar" (but I sow
              somewhere that the Old Slavonic form was "cesar'u", with the diacritics on
              "e" and "u", and some liguists say that it comes from "caesareus"). Some
              scholars are supposing between Latin and Slavic the Gothic "kaisar" as
              intermediate, others consider that the presumption of such an intermediate
              is not necessary. The fact that the Russians took the word "czar" and the
              institution connected to it from the Bulgarians is obvious to me: I know
              that the first Bulgarian Czar was Boris (descendant of Asparuh) who lived
              in the 9th century (I don't remember the dates, and I hope you don't
              expect from me to know exactly all the dates of the Bulgarian history).
              But in other part I have read that Boris took the title of "kniaz", and
              that the first to bear the title of "czar" was his grandson, Simeon.

              With best regards,

              Francisc Czobor
            • regula
              ... Dear Mr.Czobor, I have to admitt I was surprised by your bulgarian-history knowledge. The cause i terorise the Group again is the Gothic intermediate
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 10, 1999
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                Francisc Czobor wrote:
                >
                > Dear Mr. Mihov
                >
                > Thank you very much for your comments.
                >
                > I apologize for my imprecision, but I wrote the message "Attila & Kreka"
                > somehow in hurry, and don't forget that I am only an AMATEUR in history,
                > philology, linguistics, etc. (my background is chemistry). Of course I'm
                > interested in the subject of the Huns, since I'm of HUN(garian) origin
                > (this is, of course, a joke inspired by the legend of kinship between the
                > Huns and the Hungarians). The two explanations regarding the Gothic
                > appearance of "Attila" are not produced by me, but I found them in some
                > books. I knew about Avithohol (I sow his name spelled also "Avitochol"),
                > ancestor of Asparuh, and that he could be identified with Attila. But when
                > I wrote the message, I had in mind only the variants Ethela or Etele (in
                > Hungarian), Ecil or Etzel (in MHG), and Atli (in Old Icel.), all these
                > being phonetic adaptation in these languages of the word "Attila".
                > Avithohol/Avthoola seems to be not derived from Attila; rather both are
                > derived from a common source - the original Hunic form of the name. Thus,
                > I think that we can agree with the fact that as an explanation for the
                > Gothic resonance of "Attila", we can retain the second variant: the
                > original name was transformed by the Germanic subjects of the Huns through
                > folk-etymology.
                >
                > Regarding the Czars, I had to be more explicit indeed, because I was
                > referring to the Russian Czars.
                >
                > I am an amateur, but I am not such an ignorant as you believe:
                >
                > I knew that the word "czar" comes ultimately from "caesar" (but I sow
                > somewhere that the Old Slavonic form was "cesar'u", with the diacritics on
                > "e" and "u", and some liguists say that it comes from "caesareus"). Some
                > scholars are supposing between Latin and Slavic the Gothic "kaisar" as
                > intermediate, others consider that the presumption of such an intermediate
                > is not necessary. The fact that the Russians took the word "czar" and the
                > institution connected to it from the Bulgarians is obvious to me: I know
                > that the first Bulgarian Czar was Boris (descendant of Asparuh) who lived
                > in the 9th century (I don't remember the dates, and I hope you don't
                > expect from me to know exactly all the dates of the Bulgarian history).
                > But in other part I have read that Boris took the title of "kniaz", and
                > that the first to bear the title of "czar" was his grandson, Simeon.
                >
                > With best regards,
                >
                > Francisc Czobor
                >
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                Dear Mr.Czobor,

                I have to admitt I was surprised by your bulgarian-history knowledge.
                The cause i terorise the Group again is the Gothic intermediate kaisar:
                IF there is an intermediate it could not be A Gothic word because
                Southern Slavs have hardly seen people speaking Gothic.I think a reason
                for that mistake is the Byzantian word "kaessar"-a Greek form of
                Ceassar-which could possibly be the intermediate.
                But according to most bulgarian scholars the is NOT an intermediate
                at all,because the "cz"-sound in Old Bulgarian "czisar" was too close to
                "c" in latin caesar and it is best transscribed in English with "ts".
                The word czisar is deffinitely NOT Old Slavonic,but Old
                Bulgarian,because it could not be found in other Slavic languages,such
                as Polish,Czech and even Serbian.
                The form is possitively "czisar(i)" if the "softing" sound can be
                transscribed at all.


                Sincerely yours:
                Georgi Mihov
              • Francisc Czobor
                Dear Mr. Mihov, Excuse me for this late reply, but I was very busy the last days, and also there were some problems with our server. I mentioned the
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 15, 1999
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                  Dear Mr. Mihov,

                  Excuse me for this late reply, but I was very busy the last days, and also
                  there were some problems with our server. I mentioned the presumption of
                  a Gothic intermediate "kaisar" for the Bulgarian word "Czar" only because
                  I have seen this mentioned in several books. But I agree that this
                  presumption is not very plausible. Regarding the term "Old Slavonic", I
                  did not mean Common Slavic (an unattested, reconstructed language), but
                  the Old Church-Slavonic (the language in which the saints Cyril and
                  Metodius translated the Bible), which is another name for Old Bulgarian
                  (tell me if I'm wrong!)

                  Francisc
                • regula
                  ... Dear MR.Czobor, ...I just stay silent.I d like to invite you in group Protobulgaria. To subscribe - slavic-subscribe@eGroups.com. EVERYBODY IS
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 15, 1999
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                    Francisc Czobor wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Mr. Mihov,
                    >
                    > Excuse me for this late reply, but I was very busy the last days, and also
                    > there were some problems with our server. I mentioned the presumption of
                    > a Gothic intermediate "kaisar" for the Bulgarian word "Czar" only because
                    > I have seen this mentioned in several books. But I agree that this
                    > presumption is not very plausible. Regarding the term "Old Slavonic", I
                    > did not mean Common Slavic (an unattested, reconstructed language), but
                    > the Old Church-Slavonic (the language in which the saints Cyril and
                    > Metodius translated the Bible), which is another name for Old Bulgarian
                    > (tell me if I'm wrong!)
                    >
                    > Francisc
                    >



                    Dear MR.Czobor,
                    ...I just stay silent.I'd like to invite you in group Protobulgaria.
                    To subscribe - slavic-subscribe@....

                    EVERYBODY IS WELLCOME!!!!!!!
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