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[gothic-l] Re: Crimean Gothic

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  • Tomas Mac an Chrosain
    ... Dear Francisc: I was very interested in this subject as well. I was trying to find out what happen to the descendents of the Goths of Crimea, but some
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 2, 1999
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      Francisc Czobor wrote:
      >
      > Hails everybody!
      >
      > I am interested in the subject of the Crimean Goths, but my sources for
      > information are rather poor. Can anybody give me some information on this
      > matter, or indicate me appropriate sources (some web page, if there is one
      > on this subject)? Is there available somewhere the whole word list of
      > Busbecq? I know only a dozen of Crimean Gothic words. And is there some
      > information available on the culture or the religion of the Crimean Goths?
      >
      > I give below all I know about this subject [and in square brackets, my
      > comments]:
      >
      > At the middle of the 3rd century (in 258), Gothic tribes were already
      > settled in Crimea; "Gothi" are here mentioned in writings of the Middle
      > Age [which are these?]. A Gothic principality survived in Crimea until the
      > capture of Mankup by the Turks in 1475 [Are known the names of some
      > princes? Where was their capital?].
      >
      > Attestations of the existence of the Gothic language in Crimea persist
      > until late. A Venetian named Joseph Barbaro, who lived in Tana (an
      > Italian commercial settlement at the mouth of the Don river) between 1436
      > and 1462, wrote that his German servant could talk with a Crimean Goth as
      > easy as a Florentine with a Genovese. A German chronicle mentions the
      > fact that, in the 16th century, merchants from Nürnberg, thrown by a storm
      > on the Crimean coast, have found a young native who could answer to their
      > questions asked in German. The Goths of Crimea are mentioned for the last
      > time by a Fleming, Ogier Ghiselin (or Ghislain?) van Busbecq (or van
      > Busbeck, or de Busbecq, or de Busbeck? I have found all the four
      > variants!), Charles V's imperial envoy to Constantinople, who encountered
      > there some Goths originating from Crimea. He collected from them a number
      > of about 60 (or 80?) words and phrases in use among the Crimean Goths, and
      > published the list in 1589. (This Busbecq had to be a remarkable man,
      > because it's him who brought the lilac and the tulips from the Levant into
      > Europe!) The Crimean Gothic, located in south-western Crimea, became
      > extinguished about the middle of the 18th century [what is attesting this,
      > since it was mentioned for the last time by Busbecq in the middle of the
      > 16th century??]. Another descendant of Gothic that also survived for a
      > longer time was Tetraxites, spoken on the Taman peninsula (in Caucasia,
      > but close to Crimea), which became extinguished in the 18th century also
      > [what is the evidence? Is there some certificate?] and of which we have
      > no remains.
      >
      > The words of Busbecq's list show clearly that the Crimean Gothic, though
      > not unaffected by Iranian influence, was still a form of Gothic.
      >
      > Below I list all the Crimean Gothic words that I found in several sources:
      >
      > ada = egg (probably < Go. *addja- < Gmc. *ajja-)
      > ano = hen (Go. *hanó, fem. of hana "cock")
      > apel = apple (Gmc.)
      > bars = beard (Gmc.)
      > bruder = brother (Go. bróþar)
      > fyder = four (Go. fidwór)
      > geen = to go (Gmc.)
      > hazer = thousand (Iranic, cf. Pers. hazár)
      > mine = moon (Go. ména)
      > myche = sword (go. mékeis)
      > schieten = to shoot (Gmc. *skiutan)
      > stap = he-goat (probably Iranic, cf. Pers. chabish)
      >
      > Does anybody know also other words? It's very interesting to see how did
      > evolve this language from Wulfila (4th century) to Busbecq (16th century).
      >
      > Francisc
      >
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      Dear Francisc:
      I was very interested in this subject as well. I was trying to find out
      what happen to the descendents of the Goths of Crimea, but some people
      posted some messages months ago indicating the only conclusion I could
      come to is that they may have been killed off or assimilated. Perhaps
      someone could provide us with some references. Goths belonged to the
      church which was Arian in Christology, but later surely become Orthodox
      or Catholic (as in Western Europe). I'm sure the Crimean Goths were
      probably Orthodox Christians under the Patriarch of Kiev.
      Tomas
    • got@yesbox.net
      The Crimean Gothic, located in south-western Crimea, became ... this, ... the ... a ... Caucasia, ... also ... have ... though ... did ... century). ... Hails
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 2, 1999
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        The Crimean Gothic, located in south-western Crimea, became
        > extinguished about the middle of the 18th century [what is attesting
        this,
        > since it was mentioned for the last time by Busbecq in the middle of
        the
        > 16th century??]. Another descendant of Gothic that also survived for
        a
        > longer time was Tetraxites, spoken on the Taman peninsula (in
        Caucasia,
        > but close to Crimea), which became extinguished in the 18th century
        also
        > [what is the evidence? Is there some certificate?] and of which we
        have
        > no remains.
        >
        > The words of Busbecq's list show clearly that the Crimean Gothic,
        though
        > not unaffected by Iranian influence, was still a form of Gothic.
        >
        > Below I list all the Crimean Gothic words that I found in several
        sources:
        >
        > ada = egg (probably < Go. *addja- < Gmc. *ajja-)
        > ano = hen (Go. *hanó, fem. of hana "cock")
        > apel = apple (Gmc.)
        > bars = beard (Gmc.)
        > bruder = brother (Go. bróþar)
        > fyder = four (Go. fidwór)
        > geen = to go (Gmc.)
        > hazer = thousand (Iranic, cf. Pers. hazár)
        > mine = moon (Go. ména)
        > myche = sword (go. mékeis)
        > schieten = to shoot (Gmc. *skiutan)
        > stap = he-goat (probably Iranic, cf. Pers. chabish)
        >
        > Does anybody know also other words? It's very interesting to see how
        did
        > evolve this language from Wulfila (4th century) to Busbecq (16th
        century).
        >
        > Francisc

        Hails allaim!
        As far as I know they had their own bishopric, Gothia, dissolved in
        1779.
        In the book "Gutarnas Historia" by Tore Gannholm, he writes a
        comparison between Crimean gothic and Gutamål. I quote in the same
        order:

        Stein "stone" Stein
        Stega "twenty" Stäjg
        Salt "salt" Salt
        Broe "bread" Broe
        Hus "house" Hus
        Lamb "sheep" Lamb
        Wasti "disguise, cover" vast"fieldcover, fence"
        Ga-runs "market" Garn"trading-place"

        Gutwulfs
      • Tim O'Neill
        ... It seems the Crimean Goths became Catholic quite early on. Many of the Gothic viking expeditions of the 250s originated from the Crimea and large
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 2, 1999
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          Tomas Mac an Chrosain wrote:

          > I was very interested in this subject as well. I was trying to find out
          > what happen to the descendents of the Goths of Crimea, but some people
          > posted some messages months ago indicating the only conclusion I could
          > come to is that they may have been killed off or assimilated. Perhaps
          > someone could provide us with some references. Goths belonged to the
          > church which was Arian in Christology, but later surely become Orthodox
          > or Catholic (as in Western Europe). I'm sure the Crimean Goths were
          > probably Orthodox Christians under the Patriarch of Kiev.

          It seems the Crimean Goths became Catholic quite early on. Many of the
          Gothic 'viking' expeditions of the 250s originated from the Crimea and
          large numbers of orthodox Roman captives brought to the area probably
          set the scene. In 404 AD the Crimean Goths asked the Patriarch John
          Chrysostom for a Catholic bishop to replace Unila, who Chrysostom had
          appointed earlier and who had since died. In 548 they made a
          similar request to Constantinople and also for military aid against
          their Hunnic neighbours.

          Three other snippets about the Crimean Goths: Procopius describes
          one of the encounters between the Crimean Goths and the Huns and
          says they repelled Hunnic cavalry by forming a 'fence' of shields
          bristling with spears.

          Theodoric the Great also formally asked the Crimean Goths to join
          his expedition to Italy, but they declined with thanks (out of respect
          for an Amal but due to religious reservations perhaps?)

          In about 1750 a Jesuit from Vienna named Mondorf ransomed a prisoner
          from the Turkish galleys who turned out to be from the Crimea and
          whose native language bore a resemblance to German. If this was
          a corrupted form of Gothic, this means that there were still
          people speaking (something like) Gothic as recently as 250 years ago.

          I, like Francisc, would also like to know if there is a full list
          of Crimean Gothic on the web. Here are a few more words which I've
          pieced together from various sources:
          goltz = gold (Go. gulths)
          schlipen = sleep (Go. slepan)
          statz = earth, ground (Go. staths 'place')
          baar = boy (Go. barn 'child')
          wichtgata = white (Go. hweitata)
          tzo = thou (Go. thu)
          ies = he (Go. is)

          Apparently Busbecq's list also included the Crimean Gothic numerals
          up to ninety, which are all recognisably Gothic, though the numbers
          for 100 and 1000 are apparently Iranian.

          Hopefully others can add to this list and to the information about
          this fascinating last pocket of Gothia.
          Hails,

          Tim O'Neill
          Tasmanian Devil
        • llama_nom
          This might be of interest to some people here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Germanic-L/message/13590 The article contains a detailed discussion of Crimean
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 4, 2005
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            This might be of interest to some people here:

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Germanic-L/message/13590

            The article contains a detailed discussion of Crimean Gothic sounds
            and an interpretation of the song Busbecq recorded.
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