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[gothic-l] Crimean Gothic

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  • Francisc Czobor
    Hails everybody! I am interested in the subject of the Crimean Goths, but my sources for information are rather poor. Can anybody give me some information on
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 2, 1999
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      Hails everybody!

      I am interested in the subject of the Crimean Goths, but my sources for
      information are rather poor. Can anybody give me some information on this
      matter, or indicate me appropriate sources (some web page, if there is one
      on this subject)? Is there available somewhere the whole word list of
      Busbecq? I know only a dozen of Crimean Gothic words. And is there some
      information available on the culture or the religion of the Crimean Goths?

      I give below all I know about this subject [and in square brackets, my
      comments]:

      At the middle of the 3rd century (in 258), Gothic tribes were already
      settled in Crimea; "Gothi" are here mentioned in writings of the Middle
      Age [which are these?]. A Gothic principality survived in Crimea until the
      capture of Mankup by the Turks in 1475 [Are known the names of some
      princes? Where was their capital?].

      Attestations of the existence of the Gothic language in Crimea persist
      until late. A Venetian named Joseph Barbaro, who lived in Tana (an
      Italian commercial settlement at the mouth of the Don river) between 1436
      and 1462, wrote that his German servant could talk with a Crimean Goth as
      easy as a Florentine with a Genovese. A German chronicle mentions the
      fact that, in the 16th century, merchants from N�rnberg, thrown by a storm
      on the Crimean coast, have found a young native who could answer to their
      questions asked in German. The Goths of Crimea are mentioned for the last
      time by a Fleming, Ogier Ghiselin (or Ghislain?) van Busbecq (or van
      Busbeck, or de Busbecq, or de Busbeck? I have found all the four
      variants!), Charles V's imperial envoy to Constantinople, who encountered
      there some Goths originating from Crimea. He collected from them a number
      of about 60 (or 80?) words and phrases in use among the Crimean Goths, and
      published the list in 1589. (This Busbecq had to be a remarkable man,
      because it's him who brought the lilac and the tulips from the Levant into
      Europe!) The Crimean Gothic, located in south-western Crimea, became
      extinguished about the middle of the 18th century [what is attesting this,
      since it was mentioned for the last time by Busbecq in the middle of the
      16th century??]. Another descendant of Gothic that also survived for a
      longer time was Tetraxites, spoken on the Taman peninsula (in Caucasia,
      but close to Crimea), which became extinguished in the 18th century also
      [what is the evidence? Is there some certificate?] and of which we have
      no remains.

      The words of Busbecq's list show clearly that the Crimean Gothic, though
      not unaffected by Iranian influence, was still a form of Gothic.

      Below I list all the Crimean Gothic words that I found in several sources:

      ada = egg (probably < Go. *addja- < Gmc. *ajja-)
      ano = hen (Go. *han�, fem. of hana "cock")
      apel = apple (Gmc.)
      bars = beard (Gmc.)
      bruder = brother (Go. br��ar)
      fyder = four (Go. fidw�r)
      geen = to go (Gmc.)
      hazer = thousand (Iranic, cf. Pers. haz�r)
      mine = moon (Go. m�na)
      myche = sword (go. m�keis)
      schieten = to shoot (Gmc. *skiutan)
      stap = he-goat (probably Iranic, cf. Pers. chabish)

      Does anybody know also other words? It's very interesting to see how did
      evolve this language from Wulfila (4th century) to Busbecq (16th century).

      Francisc
    • Tomas Mac an Chrosain
      ... Dear Francisc: I was very interested in this subject as well. I was trying to find out what happen to the descendents of the Goths of Crimea, but some
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 2, 1999
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        Francisc Czobor wrote:
        >
        > Hails everybody!
        >
        > I am interested in the subject of the Crimean Goths, but my sources for
        > information are rather poor. Can anybody give me some information on this
        > matter, or indicate me appropriate sources (some web page, if there is one
        > on this subject)? Is there available somewhere the whole word list of
        > Busbecq? I know only a dozen of Crimean Gothic words. And is there some
        > information available on the culture or the religion of the Crimean Goths?
        >
        > I give below all I know about this subject [and in square brackets, my
        > comments]:
        >
        > At the middle of the 3rd century (in 258), Gothic tribes were already
        > settled in Crimea; "Gothi" are here mentioned in writings of the Middle
        > Age [which are these?]. A Gothic principality survived in Crimea until the
        > capture of Mankup by the Turks in 1475 [Are known the names of some
        > princes? Where was their capital?].
        >
        > Attestations of the existence of the Gothic language in Crimea persist
        > until late. A Venetian named Joseph Barbaro, who lived in Tana (an
        > Italian commercial settlement at the mouth of the Don river) between 1436
        > and 1462, wrote that his German servant could talk with a Crimean Goth as
        > easy as a Florentine with a Genovese. A German chronicle mentions the
        > fact that, in the 16th century, merchants from Nürnberg, thrown by a storm
        > on the Crimean coast, have found a young native who could answer to their
        > questions asked in German. The Goths of Crimea are mentioned for the last
        > time by a Fleming, Ogier Ghiselin (or Ghislain?) van Busbecq (or van
        > Busbeck, or de Busbecq, or de Busbeck? I have found all the four
        > variants!), Charles V's imperial envoy to Constantinople, who encountered
        > there some Goths originating from Crimea. He collected from them a number
        > of about 60 (or 80?) words and phrases in use among the Crimean Goths, and
        > published the list in 1589. (This Busbecq had to be a remarkable man,
        > because it's him who brought the lilac and the tulips from the Levant into
        > Europe!) The Crimean Gothic, located in south-western Crimea, became
        > extinguished about the middle of the 18th century [what is attesting this,
        > since it was mentioned for the last time by Busbecq in the middle of the
        > 16th century??]. Another descendant of Gothic that also survived for a
        > longer time was Tetraxites, spoken on the Taman peninsula (in Caucasia,
        > but close to Crimea), which became extinguished in the 18th century also
        > [what is the evidence? Is there some certificate?] and of which we have
        > no remains.
        >
        > The words of Busbecq's list show clearly that the Crimean Gothic, though
        > not unaffected by Iranian influence, was still a form of Gothic.
        >
        > Below I list all the Crimean Gothic words that I found in several sources:
        >
        > ada = egg (probably < Go. *addja- < Gmc. *ajja-)
        > ano = hen (Go. *hanó, fem. of hana "cock")
        > apel = apple (Gmc.)
        > bars = beard (Gmc.)
        > bruder = brother (Go. bróþar)
        > fyder = four (Go. fidwór)
        > geen = to go (Gmc.)
        > hazer = thousand (Iranic, cf. Pers. hazár)
        > mine = moon (Go. ména)
        > myche = sword (go. mékeis)
        > schieten = to shoot (Gmc. *skiutan)
        > stap = he-goat (probably Iranic, cf. Pers. chabish)
        >
        > Does anybody know also other words? It's very interesting to see how did
        > evolve this language from Wulfila (4th century) to Busbecq (16th century).
        >
        > Francisc
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > -- Check out your group's private Chat room
        > -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=gothic-l&m=1
        Dear Francisc:
        I was very interested in this subject as well. I was trying to find out
        what happen to the descendents of the Goths of Crimea, but some people
        posted some messages months ago indicating the only conclusion I could
        come to is that they may have been killed off or assimilated. Perhaps
        someone could provide us with some references. Goths belonged to the
        church which was Arian in Christology, but later surely become Orthodox
        or Catholic (as in Western Europe). I'm sure the Crimean Goths were
        probably Orthodox Christians under the Patriarch of Kiev.
        Tomas
      • got@yesbox.net
        The Crimean Gothic, located in south-western Crimea, became ... this, ... the ... a ... Caucasia, ... also ... have ... though ... did ... century). ... Hails
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 2, 1999
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          The Crimean Gothic, located in south-western Crimea, became
          > extinguished about the middle of the 18th century [what is attesting
          this,
          > since it was mentioned for the last time by Busbecq in the middle of
          the
          > 16th century??]. Another descendant of Gothic that also survived for
          a
          > longer time was Tetraxites, spoken on the Taman peninsula (in
          Caucasia,
          > but close to Crimea), which became extinguished in the 18th century
          also
          > [what is the evidence? Is there some certificate?] and of which we
          have
          > no remains.
          >
          > The words of Busbecq's list show clearly that the Crimean Gothic,
          though
          > not unaffected by Iranian influence, was still a form of Gothic.
          >
          > Below I list all the Crimean Gothic words that I found in several
          sources:
          >
          > ada = egg (probably < Go. *addja- < Gmc. *ajja-)
          > ano = hen (Go. *hanó, fem. of hana "cock")
          > apel = apple (Gmc.)
          > bars = beard (Gmc.)
          > bruder = brother (Go. bróþar)
          > fyder = four (Go. fidwór)
          > geen = to go (Gmc.)
          > hazer = thousand (Iranic, cf. Pers. hazár)
          > mine = moon (Go. ména)
          > myche = sword (go. mékeis)
          > schieten = to shoot (Gmc. *skiutan)
          > stap = he-goat (probably Iranic, cf. Pers. chabish)
          >
          > Does anybody know also other words? It's very interesting to see how
          did
          > evolve this language from Wulfila (4th century) to Busbecq (16th
          century).
          >
          > Francisc

          Hails allaim!
          As far as I know they had their own bishopric, Gothia, dissolved in
          1779.
          In the book "Gutarnas Historia" by Tore Gannholm, he writes a
          comparison between Crimean gothic and Gutamål. I quote in the same
          order:

          Stein "stone" Stein
          Stega "twenty" Stäjg
          Salt "salt" Salt
          Broe "bread" Broe
          Hus "house" Hus
          Lamb "sheep" Lamb
          Wasti "disguise, cover" vast"fieldcover, fence"
          Ga-runs "market" Garn"trading-place"

          Gutwulfs
        • Tim O'Neill
          ... It seems the Crimean Goths became Catholic quite early on. Many of the Gothic viking expeditions of the 250s originated from the Crimea and large
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 2, 1999
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            Tomas Mac an Chrosain wrote:

            > I was very interested in this subject as well. I was trying to find out
            > what happen to the descendents of the Goths of Crimea, but some people
            > posted some messages months ago indicating the only conclusion I could
            > come to is that they may have been killed off or assimilated. Perhaps
            > someone could provide us with some references. Goths belonged to the
            > church which was Arian in Christology, but later surely become Orthodox
            > or Catholic (as in Western Europe). I'm sure the Crimean Goths were
            > probably Orthodox Christians under the Patriarch of Kiev.

            It seems the Crimean Goths became Catholic quite early on. Many of the
            Gothic 'viking' expeditions of the 250s originated from the Crimea and
            large numbers of orthodox Roman captives brought to the area probably
            set the scene. In 404 AD the Crimean Goths asked the Patriarch John
            Chrysostom for a Catholic bishop to replace Unila, who Chrysostom had
            appointed earlier and who had since died. In 548 they made a
            similar request to Constantinople and also for military aid against
            their Hunnic neighbours.

            Three other snippets about the Crimean Goths: Procopius describes
            one of the encounters between the Crimean Goths and the Huns and
            says they repelled Hunnic cavalry by forming a 'fence' of shields
            bristling with spears.

            Theodoric the Great also formally asked the Crimean Goths to join
            his expedition to Italy, but they declined with thanks (out of respect
            for an Amal but due to religious reservations perhaps?)

            In about 1750 a Jesuit from Vienna named Mondorf ransomed a prisoner
            from the Turkish galleys who turned out to be from the Crimea and
            whose native language bore a resemblance to German. If this was
            a corrupted form of Gothic, this means that there were still
            people speaking (something like) Gothic as recently as 250 years ago.

            I, like Francisc, would also like to know if there is a full list
            of Crimean Gothic on the web. Here are a few more words which I've
            pieced together from various sources:
            goltz = gold (Go. gulths)
            schlipen = sleep (Go. slepan)
            statz = earth, ground (Go. staths 'place')
            baar = boy (Go. barn 'child')
            wichtgata = white (Go. hweitata)
            tzo = thou (Go. thu)
            ies = he (Go. is)

            Apparently Busbecq's list also included the Crimean Gothic numerals
            up to ninety, which are all recognisably Gothic, though the numbers
            for 100 and 1000 are apparently Iranian.

            Hopefully others can add to this list and to the information about
            this fascinating last pocket of Gothia.
            Hails,

            Tim O'Neill
            Tasmanian Devil
          • llama_nom
            This might be of interest to some people here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Germanic-L/message/13590 The article contains a detailed discussion of Crimean
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 4, 2005
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              This might be of interest to some people here:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Germanic-L/message/13590

              The article contains a detailed discussion of Crimean Gothic sounds
              and an interpretation of the song Busbecq recorded.
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