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Re: Haila Maria - translation attempt

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  • Edmund
    Dear Dirk, Just a few things: 1) I see that you took anstai audahafta from Luke 1,28, where it translates Greek kekharitomene , literally, the one who has
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 31, 2013
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      Dear Dirk,

      Just a few things:

      1) I see that you took "anstai audahafta" from Luke 1,28, where it translates Greek 'kekharitomene', literally, 'the one who has been shown grace'. The Latin version, of course, has 'gratia plena', which, if one were to translate closely, would be 'anstais fulla'. Certainly, this is idiomatic: cf. "Iesus ahmins weihis fulls" (Luke 4,1), "Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit"; also "fullai waurthun agisis" (Luke 5,26) "were filled with awe" or "were full of awe".

      2) In agreement with the Greek Vorlage, Gothic allows the dropping of the verb 'to be' in the present indicative, so "frauja mith thus ist" could also be "frauja mith thus" with the verb implied. Indeed, the passage from Luke 1, 28 in fact gives the latter. The same would apply to the two following clauses.

      3) "athei Gudis" contains a typo. It should of course be "aithei". Likewise "bidai" should be "bidei" ('bidjan' is an irregular class V strong verb that acts like a weak class II verb in the present). Given that a present subjunctive form can be used in commands instead of the imperative, presumably to soften the force of the command, 'bidjais' would also be possible here.

      4) Given the Latin "in hora mortis nostrae", with its singular "hora", 'in hveilai' is perhaps preferable to 'in hveile'.

      5) interesting is the use of the weak adjective ending in "thiuthido" at Luke 1,28, rather than "thiuthida" (strong), which you have followed. As far as I can see, Braune/Heidermanns does not discuss this passage, and the use of the weak form here is not accounted for by the "rules" outlined in the aforesaid work. Do you have any idea why the weak ending is used here?

      Edmund



      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@...> wrote:
      >
      > I made a quick translation of the Ave Maria into Gothic. Probably full of mistakes, but here we go:
      >
      > "Haila Maria, anstai audahafta,
      > frauja mith thus ist, gathiuthido thu in qinom is,
      > gathiutido ist akran qithaus theinis, Iesus.
      >
      > Weiha Maria, athei Gudis,
      > bidai bi uns frawaurhtans,
      > nu, jah in hveile dauthaus unsaris. Amen"
      >
      >
      > Any good?
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Dirk
      >
    • faltin2001
      ... Hi Edmund, thanks a lot for your valuable comments. I also considered anstais fulla , but then found anstai audahafta in Deutsch-Gotisches
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 31, 2013
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Edmund" <edmundfairfax@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Dear Dirk,
        >
        > Just a few things:
        >
        > 1) I see that you took "anstai audahafta" from Luke 1,28, where it translates Greek 'kekharitomene', literally, 'the one who has been shown grace'. The Latin version, of course, has 'gratia plena', which, if one were to translate closely, would be 'anstais fulla'. Certainly, this is idiomatic: cf. "Iesus ahmins weihis fulls" (Luke 4,1), "Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit"; also "fullai waurthun agisis" (Luke 5,26) "were filled with awe" or "were full of awe".


        Hi Edmund,

        thanks a lot for your valuable comments.

        I also considered "anstais fulla", but then found
        "anstai audahafta" in "Deutsch-Gotisches Wörterbuch", by Oskar Priese, 1933. I lifted the whole expression from there.

        Also I translated not from Latin, but from modern German, which may also explain some of my choices.









        >
        > 2) In agreement with the Greek Vorlage, Gothic allows the dropping of the verb 'to be' in the present indicative, so "frauja mith thus ist" could also be "frauja mith thus" with the verb implied. Indeed, the passage from Luke 1, 28 in fact gives the latter. The same would apply to the two following clauses.
        >


        Understood. I somehow like to approximate it as closely as possible to my native tongue, which is a doubtful preference, but it helps me to better understand and remember Gothic.





        > 3) "athei Gudis" contains a typo. It should of course be "aithei". Likewise "bidai" should be "bidei" ('bidjan' is an irregular class V strong verb that acts like a weak class II verb in the present). Given that a present subjunctive form can be used in commands instead of the imperative, presumably to soften the force of the command, 'bidjais' would also be possible here.



        I didn't even look this up, but always seemed to have erroneously believed that the word is "athei", but you are correct of course. I like your suggestion to use "bidjais".




        >
        > 4) Given the Latin "in hora mortis nostrae", with its singular "hora", 'in hveilai' is perhaps preferable to 'in hveile'.
        >


        Again, too close to German "weile" I suppose.





        > 5) interesting is the use of the weak adjective ending in "thiuthido" at Luke 1,28, rather than "thiuthida" (strong), which you have followed. As far as I can see, Braune/Heidermanns does not discuss this passage, and the use of the weak form here is not accounted for by the "rules" outlined in the aforesaid work. Do you have any idea why the weak ending is used here?


        No, just my guess. If I am correct here, then it is by accident not design. Do you agree with the form "ga-thiuthido" or should it be "thiuthido". Again, from German I would expect "ga-thiuthido".

        Best
        Dirk


        PS I'm very impressed by your knowledge. I suppose you have studied Germanistics or German linguistics?










        >
        > Edmund
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I made a quick translation of the Ave Maria into Gothic. Probably full of mistakes, but here we go:
        > >
        > > "Haila Maria, anstai audahafta,
        > > frauja mith thus ist, gathiuthido thu in qinom is,
        > > gathiutido ist akran qithaus theinis, Iesus.
        > >
        > > Weiha Maria, athei Gudis,
        > > bidai bi uns frawaurhtans,
        > > nu, jah in hveile dauthaus unsaris. Amen"
        > >
        > >
        > > Any good?
        > >
        > > Cheers,
        > >
        > > Dirk
        > >
        >
      • Edmund
        Dear Dirk, My first attempt at sending this response seems to have gone astray, and you may end up getting another version of this. In any case, I was happy to
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 31, 2013
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          Dear Dirk,

          My first attempt at sending this response seems to have gone astray, and you may end up getting another version of this.

          In any case, I was happy to be of assistance in the earlier email.

          I have been thinking about the weak ending in 'gathiuthido', and it comes to mind that in Old English it was possible to use a weak ending where one would expect a strong. There is a further example in the Gothic Bible that comes to mind here as well: the Mount of Olives is rendered 'fairgunja alwejins' (dat.) (Mark 11,1). I will look further into this, but at this point, I would tentatively say that the weak form was likely strongly individualizing, comparable to saying 'the blessed one', thus 'you are THE blessed amongst women'. One is tempted to think of such usage as perhaps archaizing, reflecting a practice that predates the development of a definite article.

          In his introduction to Gothic, Bennet presumptively claims that the dropping of the verb 'to be' in the present tense is a Hellenism and not idiomatic to Gothic. I have my doubts concerning this. Such ellipsis with 'to be' is common in Hittite and not unknown to Classical Latin. As such, this omission may possibly have been an inherited Indo-European archaism not foreign to Gothic, befitting the subject matter.

          The question about the use of the prefix 'ga-' is a thorny one, and scholars have debated the precise meaning of this element, and its equivalent in Old English, Old Saxon, and Old High German. The prefix does not appear to have had one single meaning. The following senses can be established:

          a) a collective sense, especially with nouns: e.g. Gothic 'gaskohi' 'pair of shoes', cf. ModG 'Gebrueder'
          b) a conglomerative sense: e.g. Gothic 'gaqiman' 'to come together' versus 'qiman' 'to come'
          c) an inchoative sense: e.g. Gothic 'gasitan' 'to sit down' versus 'sitan' 'to sit'
          d) a resultative sense: e.g. Gothic 'gahorinon' to fornicate' (see the example below).

          In the latter case, the use of the prefix does not appear to have been obligatory, and it is possible to find nearly identical clauses or very similar contexts wherein now the prefixed form now the unprefixed form occurs:

          nim thus bokos jah gasitands sprauto gamelei fimf tiguns (L16,6)
          'take your bill and sitting down quickly write (out) fifty'

          nim thus bokos jah melei ahtautehund (L16,7)
          'take your bill and write eighty'

          It would appear that specifically in the case wherein a resultative meaning is to be understood, the verb may be so prefixed in order to stress this sense, while the unprefixed form of the verb is neutral and may have a resultative or non-resultative sense. Consider the following example:

          hwazuh saei saihwith qinon du luston izos ju gahorinoda izai in hairtin seinamma (Mat5,28)
          'whosoever looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already fornicated with her in his heart'

          The context makes it clear that the focus here is on the result or completion of the action. One would naturally say here '...has in fact already fornicated...'

          You asked about my background. I did study theoretical linguistics at the graduate level, with a special interest in the historical development of the early Germanic languages, above all Old English and Gothic.

          Are you as well connected to this same field in any way?

          Edmund




          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Edmund" <edmundfairfax@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Dear Dirk,
          > >
          > > Just a few things:
          > >
          > > 1) I see that you took "anstai audahafta" from Luke 1,28, where it translates Greek 'kekharitomene', literally, 'the one who has been shown grace'. The Latin version, of course, has 'gratia plena', which, if one were to translate closely, would be 'anstais fulla'. Certainly, this is idiomatic: cf. "Iesus ahmins weihis fulls" (Luke 4,1), "Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit"; also "fullai waurthun agisis" (Luke 5,26) "were filled with awe" or "were full of awe".
          >
          >
          > Hi Edmund,
          >
          > thanks a lot for your valuable comments.
          >
          > I also considered "anstais fulla", but then found
          > "anstai audahafta" in "Deutsch-Gotisches Wörterbuch", by Oskar Priese, 1933. I lifted the whole expression from there.
          >
          > Also I translated not from Latin, but from modern German, which may also explain some of my choices.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          > > 2) In agreement with the Greek Vorlage, Gothic allows the dropping of the verb 'to be' in the present indicative, so "frauja mith thus ist" could also be "frauja mith thus" with the verb implied. Indeed, the passage from Luke 1, 28 in fact gives the latter. The same would apply to the two following clauses.
          > >
          >
          >
          > Understood. I somehow like to approximate it as closely as possible to my native tongue, which is a doubtful preference, but it helps me to better understand and remember Gothic.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > 3) "athei Gudis" contains a typo. It should of course be "aithei". Likewise "bidai" should be "bidei" ('bidjan' is an irregular class V strong verb that acts like a weak class II verb in the present). Given that a present subjunctive form can be used in commands instead of the imperative, presumably to soften the force of the command, 'bidjais' would also be possible here.
          >
          >
          >
          > I didn't even look this up, but always seemed to have erroneously believed that the word is "athei", but you are correct of course. I like your suggestion to use "bidjais".
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          > > 4) Given the Latin "in hora mortis nostrae", with its singular "hora", 'in hveilai' is perhaps preferable to 'in hveile'.
          > >
          >
          >
          > Again, too close to German "weile" I suppose.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > 5) interesting is the use of the weak adjective ending in "thiuthido" at Luke 1,28, rather than "thiuthida" (strong), which you have followed. As far as I can see, Braune/Heidermanns does not discuss this passage, and the use of the weak form here is not accounted for by the "rules" outlined in the aforesaid work. Do you have any idea why the weak ending is used here?
          >
          >
          > No, just my guess. If I am correct here, then it is by accident not design. Do you agree with the form "ga-thiuthido" or should it be "thiuthido". Again, from German I would expect "ga-thiuthido".
          >
          > Best
          > Dirk
          >
          >
          > PS I'm very impressed by your knowledge. I suppose you have studied Germanistics or German linguistics?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          > > Edmund
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I made a quick translation of the Ave Maria into Gothic. Probably full of mistakes, but here we go:
          > > >
          > > > "Haila Maria, anstai audahafta,
          > > > frauja mith thus ist, gathiuthido thu in qinom is,
          > > > gathiutido ist akran qithaus theinis, Iesus.
          > > >
          > > > Weiha Maria, athei Gudis,
          > > > bidai bi uns frawaurhtans,
          > > > nu, jah in hveile dauthaus unsaris. Amen"
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Any good?
          > > >
          > > > Cheers,
          > > >
          > > > Dirk
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • faltin2001
          ... Hi Edmund, Slavic languages such as Russian also drop the to be in the present tense. Thus, I am here in Russian is simply Ya zdyez , which literally
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 1, 2013
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            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Edmund" <edmundfairfax@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Dirk,
            >
            > My first attempt at sending this response seems to have gone astray, and you may end up getting another version of this.
            >
            > In any case, I was happy to be of assistance in the earlier email.
            >
            > I have been thinking about the weak ending in 'gathiuthido', and it comes to mind that in Old English it was possible to use a weak ending where one would expect a strong. There is a further example in the Gothic Bible that comes to mind here as well: the Mount of Olives is rendered 'fairgunja alwejins' (dat.) (Mark 11,1). I will look further into this, but at this point, I would tentatively say that the weak form was likely strongly individualizing, comparable to saying 'the blessed one', thus 'you are THE blessed amongst women'. One is tempted to think of such usage as perhaps archaizing, reflecting a practice that predates the development of a definite article.
            >
            > In his introduction to Gothic, Bennet presumptively claims that the dropping of the verb 'to be' in the present tense is a Hellenism and not idiomatic to Gothic. I have my doubts concerning this. Such ellipsis with 'to be' is common in Hittite and not unknown to Classical Latin. As such, this omission may possibly have been an inherited Indo-European archaism not foreign to Gothic, befitting the subject matter.


            Hi Edmund,

            Slavic languages such as Russian also drop the 'to be' in the present tense. Thus, "I am here" in Russian is simply "Ya zdyez", which literally means "I here" with the 'am' being understood. I agree that it is well possible that ancient Germanic languages operated according to the same system. It would be interesting to know if such forms exist in OHG.







            >
            > The question about the use of the prefix 'ga-' is a thorny one, and scholars have debated the precise meaning of this element, and its equivalent in Old English, Old Saxon, and Old High German. The prefix does not appear to have had one single meaning. The following senses can be established:
            >
            > a) a collective sense, especially with nouns: e.g. Gothic 'gaskohi' 'pair of shoes', cf. ModG 'Gebrueder'
            > b) a conglomerative sense: e.g. Gothic 'gaqiman' 'to come together' versus 'qiman' 'to come'
            > c) an inchoative sense: e.g. Gothic 'gasitan' 'to sit down' versus 'sitan' 'to sit'
            > d) a resultative sense: e.g. Gothic 'gahorinon' to fornicate' (see the example below).
            >
            > In the latter case, the use of the prefix does not appear to have been obligatory, and it is possible to find nearly identical clauses or very similar contexts wherein now the prefixed form now the unprefixed form occurs:
            >
            > nim thus bokos jah gasitands sprauto gamelei fimf tiguns (L16,6)
            > 'take your bill and sitting down quickly write (out) fifty'
            >
            > nim thus bokos jah melei ahtautehund (L16,7)
            > 'take your bill and write eighty'
            >
            > It would appear that specifically in the case wherein a resultative meaning is to be understood, the verb may be so prefixed in order to stress this sense, while the unprefixed form of the verb is neutral and may have a resultative or non-resultative sense. Consider the following example:
            >
            > hwazuh saei saihwith qinon du luston izos ju gahorinoda izai in hairtin seinamma (Mat5,28)
            > 'whosoever looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already fornicated with her in his heart'
            >
            > The context makes it clear that the focus here is on the result or completion of the action. One would naturally say here '...has in fact already fornicated...'




            That is very interesting and I didn't know these various aspects. As you no doubt know modern German makes heavy use of the "ge-" prefix and as a German speaker it is very tempting to use Gothic "ga-" accordingly.





            >
            > You asked about my background. I did study theoretical linguistics at the graduate level, with a special interest in the historical development of the early Germanic languages, above all Old English and Gothic.
            >
            > Are you as well connected to this same field in any way?
            >



            No, not at all. I'm just an interested layman. Also, my interest in Gothic is not linguistic per se. Instead, I am interested in all aspects of Gothic (and ancient Germanic) history. Understanding and experiencing (to some extend) how they spoke somehow I feel brings me closer to understanding their culture and history.

            Best,
            Dirk



            > Edmund
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Edmund" <edmundfairfax@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Dear Dirk,
            > > >
            > > > Just a few things:
            > > >
            > > > 1) I see that you took "anstai audahafta" from Luke 1,28, where it translates Greek 'kekharitomene', literally, 'the one who has been shown grace'. The Latin version, of course, has 'gratia plena', which, if one were to translate closely, would be 'anstais fulla'. Certainly, this is idiomatic: cf. "Iesus ahmins weihis fulls" (Luke 4,1), "Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit"; also "fullai waurthun agisis" (Luke 5,26) "were filled with awe" or "were full of awe".
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi Edmund,
            > >
            > > thanks a lot for your valuable comments.
            > >
            > > I also considered "anstais fulla", but then found
            > > "anstai audahafta" in "Deutsch-Gotisches Wörterbuch", by Oskar Priese, 1933. I lifted the whole expression from there.
            > >
            > > Also I translated not from Latin, but from modern German, which may also explain some of my choices.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > 2) In agreement with the Greek Vorlage, Gothic allows the dropping of the verb 'to be' in the present indicative, so "frauja mith thus ist" could also be "frauja mith thus" with the verb implied. Indeed, the passage from Luke 1, 28 in fact gives the latter. The same would apply to the two following clauses.
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Understood. I somehow like to approximate it as closely as possible to my native tongue, which is a doubtful preference, but it helps me to better understand and remember Gothic.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > > 3) "athei Gudis" contains a typo. It should of course be "aithei". Likewise "bidai" should be "bidei" ('bidjan' is an irregular class V strong verb that acts like a weak class II verb in the present). Given that a present subjunctive form can be used in commands instead of the imperative, presumably to soften the force of the command, 'bidjais' would also be possible here.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I didn't even look this up, but always seemed to have erroneously believed that the word is "athei", but you are correct of course. I like your suggestion to use "bidjais".
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > 4) Given the Latin "in hora mortis nostrae", with its singular "hora", 'in hveilai' is perhaps preferable to 'in hveile'.
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Again, too close to German "weile" I suppose.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > > 5) interesting is the use of the weak adjective ending in "thiuthido" at Luke 1,28, rather than "thiuthida" (strong), which you have followed. As far as I can see, Braune/Heidermanns does not discuss this passage, and the use of the weak form here is not accounted for by the "rules" outlined in the aforesaid work. Do you have any idea why the weak ending is used here?
            > >
            > >
            > > No, just my guess. If I am correct here, then it is by accident not design. Do you agree with the form "ga-thiuthido" or should it be "thiuthido". Again, from German I would expect "ga-thiuthido".
            > >
            > > Best
            > > Dirk
            > >
            > >
            > > PS I'm very impressed by your knowledge. I suppose you have studied Germanistics or German linguistics?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Edmund
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > I made a quick translation of the Ave Maria into Gothic. Probably full of mistakes, but here we go:
            > > > >
            > > > > "Haila Maria, anstai audahafta,
            > > > > frauja mith thus ist, gathiuthido thu in qinom is,
            > > > > gathiutido ist akran qithaus theinis, Iesus.
            > > > >
            > > > > Weiha Maria, athei Gudis,
            > > > > bidai bi uns frawaurhtans,
            > > > > nu, jah in hveile dauthaus unsaris. Amen"
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Any good?
            > > > >
            > > > > Cheers,
            > > > >
            > > > > Dirk
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Frithureiks Swartagaizis
            Hi Check this out for comparison if you want to. http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/JPN-gothic.html Lords prayer first but AVM at the bottom of the page ;)
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 8, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi

              Check this out for comparison if you want to.

              http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/JPN-gothic.html

              Lords prayer first but AVM at the bottom of the page ;)


              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@...> wrote:
              >
              > I made a quick translation of the Ave Maria into Gothic. Probably full of mistakes, but here we go:
              >
              > "Haila Maria, anstai audahafta,
              > frauja mith thus ist, gathiuthido thu in qinom is,
              > gathiutido ist akran qithaus theinis, Iesus.
              >
              > Weiha Maria, athei Gudis,
              > bidai bi uns frawaurhtans,
              > nu, jah in hveile dauthaus unsaris. Amen"
              >
              >
              > Any good?
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Dirk
              >
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