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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Greeting Hails

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  • Grsartor@aol.com
    About whether some early Gothic Christians would have preferred fagino (rejoice) to hails : now that the matter has been mentioned, it does seem plausible;
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 4, 2012
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      About whether some early Gothic Christians would have preferred "fagino"
      (rejoice) to "hails": now that the matter has been mentioned, it does seem
      plausible; for it translates the Greek chaire literally, and Wulfila is often
      very literal in his renditions of the NT Greek. As for the use of "hail"
      to refer to worldly luck and military success, such a noun use occurs in
      both German and Old Norse. I give below some further facts excavated from
      dictionaries:

      Cleasby and Vigfusson's Icelandic-English Dictionary, which is primarily
      about the old tongue, includes versions of both the Germanic "holy" words
      that have been mooted: they appear as "vígja" i.e. vigja with an acute accent
      on the first vowel, in case it gets corrupted in transmission, which is
      said to mean "consecrate" both in a Christian and in a non-Christian sense;
      and "heilagr" (the consonant at the end is inflexive) which means "holy",
      again in either a Christian or a non-Christian sense. The word is said to be
      derived from "heill" (whole) and to be consequently not so old as the
      primitive vé, veihs.

      "Heilagr" is also said to have been used as a lawterm to mean inviolable,
      one whose person is sacred, with the comment that this is undoubtedly the
      word's original sense.

      The Oxford English Dictionary under "holy" has the interesting remark that
      the word's sense "is expressed in the Gothic of Ulfilas by weihs (but
      hailag, apparently 'consecrated', 'dedicated' is read on a runic inscription
      generally held to be Gothic)".

      Less helpfully, the OED adds that "we cannot in Old English get behind
      Christian senses in which "holy" is equated with Latin sanctus, sacer".

      Gerry T.


      In a message dated 03/06/2012 23:59:45 GMT Daylight Time,
      marja-e@... writes:

      Thank you!

      That gets to another point - D.H. Green discusses how Wulfila almost
      exclusively refers to weihs and avoids hailags, and upper German texts
      use wih, while Anglo-Saxon and low/middle German texts almost
      exclusively refer to heilag. He argues that Wulfila chose weihs because
      hailags was associated with worldly luck and military victory.

      That leaves me wondering how early Gothic Christians would have felt
      about the greeting hails/haila/hailata. In these contexts, of course,
      it's Roman soldiers mocking Jesus. Perhaps some early Gothic Christians
      might have preferred fagino, and their pagan contemporaries might have
      used either or both greetings? Just a thought.

      On Sun, 2012-06-03 at 07:05 -0400, Grsartor@... wrote:
      >
      > A small discovery about the "hails" construction:
      >
      > remember that it occurs twice, in Mark and in John:
      >
      >
      > hails þiudan Iudaie - Mark 15:18 - Hail, [o] King of the Jews.
      > hails þiudans Iudaie - John 19:3 - Hail [the] King of the Jews.
      >
      > I wondered why John's version did not seem to have "king" as a
      > vocative,
      > and thought it might be due to carelessness. In a sense there was
      > carelessness: my own. If I had bothered to check the Greek in John's
      > version I should
      > have seen that it says
      >
      > hail (chaire - an imperative) the king of the Jews.
      >
      > But whereas John had the king word in the nominative (basileus) Mark
      > had it
      > in the vocative (basileu) and with no definite article. It therefore
      > looks
      > as if Wulfila was faithful to the material he translated, and the two
      > lines given above have been correctly transmitted to us.
      >
      > Incidentally, I wondered about the correctness of the Greek here,
      > since the
      > language the New Testament was written in is said to be often poor -
      > "impoverished and crippled" as a former Bishop of Birmingham put it,
      > though I am
      > not myself advanced enough to notice its deficiencies. I checked
      > Mark's
      > version in Vincent Taylor's Greek Text of Mark, and reproduce below
      > part of
      > what appears there, without pretending that I fully understand it:
      >
      > chaire, basileu corresponds to the Latin greeting Ave Caesar. The
      > vocative, which admits the royal right... is 'a note of the writer's
      > imperfect
      > sensibility to the more delicate shades of Greek idiom', Moulton,
      > i.71.
      >
      > Gerry T.
      >
      > In a message dated 01/06/2012 04:00:06 GMT Daylight Time,
      > r_scherp@... writes:
      >
      > Hails!
      >
      > Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between
      > adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an
      > adjective.
      > In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that
      > calls
      > for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate
      > a
      > similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a
      > valid
      > interpretation?
      >
      > Randulfs
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions
      > with
      > not much meaning the singular can be generalized.
      > >
      >
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      >
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >




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    • marja erwin
      Can anyone recommend free open-source resources for Gothic in Ubuntu, or in Linux generally? Even typing is difficult, because I have to use an awkward
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 29, 2012
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        Can anyone recommend free open-source resources for Gothic in Ubuntu, or
        in Linux generally?

        Even typing is difficult, because I have to use an awkward character
        selection menu for hvair. I would like a Gothic keyboard layout or the
        equivalent.

        Can anyone recommend fonts for Gothic, either? I know there are uncial
        fonts for the Gothic alphabet, but it would be handy to have the Gothic
        alphabet in modern fonts like Liberation Serif and Liberation Sans.

        Thanks!
      • Michael Everson
        ... The Irish Extended keyboard on the Mac OS has easy access to hwair: alt-; + h = ƕ, alt-; + H = Ƕ. I think (but do not know) that there is an Irish
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 30, 2012
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          On 30 Jul 2012, at 04:33, marja erwin wrote:

          > Can anyone recommend free open-source resources for Gothic in Ubuntu, or in Linux generally?

          The Irish Extended keyboard on the Mac OS has easy access to hwair: alt-; + h = ƕ, alt-; + H = Ƕ. I think (but do not know) that there is an Irish Extended keyboard on some flavour of Linux. If so, perhaps it copies my design for the Apple Irish Extended keyboard.

          > Can anyone recommend fonts for Gothic, either? I know there are uncial fonts for the Gothic alphabet, but it would be handy to have the Gothic
          > alphabet in modern fonts like Liberation Serif and Liberation Sans.

          Everson Mono http://evertype.com/emono/ has Gothic, though I want to revise its glyphs. I like Sadagolthina http://evertype.com/fonts/gothic/ myself. But I would, wouldn't I?

          Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
        • Abrigon
          i had a font or two for the Gothich Language, but I think you can find it online someplace? Upsala or .. might do a search for Wulfilas or like name and see
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 30, 2012
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            i had a font or two for the Gothich Language, but I think you can find it
            online someplace? Upsala or .. might do a search for Wulfilas or like name
            and see what comes up?

            The priest who created the Gothic script from earlier Greek and I see some
            influences you also see in Coptic, but how so not sure.

            Mike




            On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 7:33 PM, marja erwin <marja-e@...> wrote:

            > Can anyone recommend free open-source resources for Gothic in Ubuntu, or
            > in Linux generally?
            >
            > Even typing is difficult, because I have to use an awkward character
            > selection menu for hvair. I would like a Gothic keyboard layout or the
            > equivalent.
            >
            > Can anyone recommend fonts for Gothic, either? I know there are uncial
            > fonts for the Gothic alphabet, but it would be handy to have the Gothic
            > alphabet in modern fonts like Liberation Serif and Liberation Sans.
            >
            > Thanks!
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
            > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


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