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RE: [gothic-l] Re: Greeting Hails

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  • Kevin Behrens
    Hailai, on our website www.vereindergotischensprache.de I want to start a neogothic language course. And it s pretty difficult to invent konversational
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 1, 2012
      Hailai,
      on our website www.vereindergotischensprache.de I want to start a neogothic language course. And it's pretty difficult to invent konversational phrases, the bible is not really known to have such ones attested. ;) I now choosed the declined forms. They can't be wrong and as far as I see we won't come to a real solution on this. And maybe some of the possibilities are right. On older Gothic the forms could have been declined and in later times the declination could have been reduced.

      Another question is: How would you translate the phrase: How are you?
      According to most languages I choosed: Hvaiwa is �u?
      Would that be appropriate?

      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      From: r_scherp@...
      Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 03:00:02 +0000
      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Greeting Hails




























      Hails!



      Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an adjective. In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that calls for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate a similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a valid interpretation?



      Randulfs

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:

      >

      > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with not much meaning the singular can be generalized.

      >


















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Grsartor@aol.com
      Herewith, something of a ragbag of what I am able to contribute to answering questions raised in recent posts. About the interpretation of the hail
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 2, 2012
        Herewith, something of a ragbag of what I am able to contribute to
        answering questions raised in recent posts.

        About the interpretation of the "hail" constructions attested in Gothic: I
        would take "thiudan" to be vocative (o King) in

        Hails thiudan - [be] hale o King

        The alternative version with "thiudans" is trickier; it may be due to
        miscopying or looseness of usage.

        About the word order in

        thiudiskaland thiudangardi ist: it might be worth while to look for some
        examples in Wulfila, but bear in mind that he tends to stick closely to the
        Greek he translates.

        About how to say "how are you?". Gothic appears to have had a phrase "ubil
        haban" (to have evil) or "ubilaba haban" (to have badly) for saying "to be
        ill". But these look like very literal translations of the New Testament's
        Greek (kakos echein = to have badly) and so we perhaps ought not to be too
        eager to postulate a Gothic phrase literally meaning "how do you have?".
        On the other hand, just such an expression for "how are you" is used in
        Norwegian: hvordan har du det, which I think means "how do you have it?"

        In answer to one other question, about the use of is/was + participle:
        other European tongues than English seem to have sensibly avoided this curse,
        but it does occur in Gothic, e.g. in Mark 1:21

        was laisjands ins swe waldufni habands jah ni swaswe thai bokarjos - he
        taught them (literally was teaching them) as one having authority and not
        like the scribes.

        However, Wulfila's Gothic here, as often, is a very literal rendition of
        the original; Mark's Greek has the same construction. Unfortunately I am not
        well versed enough in Greek to say how Mark's "was teaching" (en didaskon)
        would have been felt to differ from a simple imperfect.

        At a guess, the Goths did not normally use the construction in question.


        Gerry T.




        In a message dated 01/06/2012 16:30:10 GMT Daylight Time,
        becareful_icanseeyourfuture@... writes:


        Hailai,
        on our website www.vereindergotischensprache.de I want to start a
        neogothic language course. And it's pretty difficult to invent konversational
        phrases, the bible is not really known to have such ones attested. ;) I now
        choosed the declined forms. They can't be wrong and as far as I see we won't
        come to a real solution on this. And maybe some of the possibilities are
        right. On older Gothic the forms could have been declined and in later times
        the declination could have been reduced.

        Another question is: How would you translate the phrase: How are you?
        According to most languages I choosed: Hvaiwa is þu?
        Would that be appropriate?

        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        From: r_scherp@...
        Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 03:00:02 +0000
        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Greeting Hails




























        Hails!



        Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between
        adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an adjective.
        In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that calls
        for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate a
        similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a valid
        interpretation?



        Randulfs

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:

        >

        > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with
        not much meaning the singular can be generalized.

        >


















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Grsartor@aol.com
        A small discovery about the hails construction: remember that it occurs twice, in Mark and in John: hails þiudan Iudaie - Mark 15:18 - Hail, [o] King of the
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 3, 2012
          A small discovery about the "hails" construction:

          remember that it occurs twice, in Mark and in John:


          hails þiudan Iudaie - Mark 15:18 - Hail, [o] King of the Jews.
          hails þiudans Iudaie - John 19:3 - Hail [the] King of the Jews.

          I wondered why John's version did not seem to have "king" as a vocative,
          and thought it might be due to carelessness. In a sense there was
          carelessness: my own. If I had bothered to check the Greek in John's version I should
          have seen that it says

          hail (chaire - an imperative) the king of the Jews.

          But whereas John had the king word in the nominative (basileus) Mark had it
          in the vocative (basileu) and with no definite article. It therefore looks
          as if Wulfila was faithful to the material he translated, and the two
          lines given above have been correctly transmitted to us.

          Incidentally, I wondered about the correctness of the Greek here, since the
          language the New Testament was written in is said to be often poor -
          "impoverished and crippled" as a former Bishop of Birmingham put it, though I am
          not myself advanced enough to notice its deficiencies. I checked Mark's
          version in Vincent Taylor's Greek Text of Mark, and reproduce below part of
          what appears there, without pretending that I fully understand it:

          chaire, basileu corresponds to the Latin greeting Ave Caesar. The
          vocative, which admits the royal right... is 'a note of the writer's imperfect
          sensibility to the more delicate shades of Greek idiom', Moulton, i.71.

          Gerry T.



          In a message dated 01/06/2012 04:00:06 GMT Daylight Time,
          r_scherp@... writes:


          Hails!

          Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between
          adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an adjective.
          In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that calls
          for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate a
          similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a valid
          interpretation?

          Randulfs
          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:
          >
          > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with
          not much meaning the singular can be generalized.
          >




          ------------------------------------

          You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
          to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • marja erwin
          Thank you! That gets to another point - D.H. Green discusses how Wulfila almost exclusively refers to weihs and avoids hailags, and upper German texts use wih,
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 3, 2012
            Thank you!

            That gets to another point - D.H. Green discusses how Wulfila almost
            exclusively refers to weihs and avoids hailags, and upper German texts
            use wih, while Anglo-Saxon and low/middle German texts almost
            exclusively refer to heilag. He argues that Wulfila chose weihs because
            hailags was associated with worldly luck and military victory.

            That leaves me wondering how early Gothic Christians would have felt
            about the greeting hails/haila/hailata. In these contexts, of course,
            it's Roman soldiers mocking Jesus. Perhaps some early Gothic Christians
            might have preferred fagino, and their pagan contemporaries might have
            used either or both greetings? Just a thought.

            On Sun, 2012-06-03 at 07:05 -0400, Grsartor@... wrote:
            >
            > A small discovery about the "hails" construction:
            >
            > remember that it occurs twice, in Mark and in John:
            >
            >
            > hails þiudan Iudaie - Mark 15:18 - Hail, [o] King of the Jews.
            > hails þiudans Iudaie - John 19:3 - Hail [the] King of the Jews.
            >
            > I wondered why John's version did not seem to have "king" as a
            > vocative,
            > and thought it might be due to carelessness. In a sense there was
            > carelessness: my own. If I had bothered to check the Greek in John's
            > version I should
            > have seen that it says
            >
            > hail (chaire - an imperative) the king of the Jews.
            >
            > But whereas John had the king word in the nominative (basileus) Mark
            > had it
            > in the vocative (basileu) and with no definite article. It therefore
            > looks
            > as if Wulfila was faithful to the material he translated, and the two
            > lines given above have been correctly transmitted to us.
            >
            > Incidentally, I wondered about the correctness of the Greek here,
            > since the
            > language the New Testament was written in is said to be often poor -
            > "impoverished and crippled" as a former Bishop of Birmingham put it,
            > though I am
            > not myself advanced enough to notice its deficiencies. I checked
            > Mark's
            > version in Vincent Taylor's Greek Text of Mark, and reproduce below
            > part of
            > what appears there, without pretending that I fully understand it:
            >
            > chaire, basileu corresponds to the Latin greeting Ave Caesar. The
            > vocative, which admits the royal right... is 'a note of the writer's
            > imperfect
            > sensibility to the more delicate shades of Greek idiom', Moulton,
            > i.71.
            >
            > Gerry T.
            >
            > In a message dated 01/06/2012 04:00:06 GMT Daylight Time,
            > r_scherp@... writes:
            >
            > Hails!
            >
            > Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between
            > adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an
            > adjective.
            > In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that
            > calls
            > for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate
            > a
            > similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a
            > valid
            > interpretation?
            >
            > Randulfs
            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions
            > with
            > not much meaning the singular can be generalized.
            > >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
            > email
            > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Grsartor@aol.com
            About whether some early Gothic Christians would have preferred fagino (rejoice) to hails : now that the matter has been mentioned, it does seem plausible;
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 4, 2012
              About whether some early Gothic Christians would have preferred "fagino"
              (rejoice) to "hails": now that the matter has been mentioned, it does seem
              plausible; for it translates the Greek chaire literally, and Wulfila is often
              very literal in his renditions of the NT Greek. As for the use of "hail"
              to refer to worldly luck and military success, such a noun use occurs in
              both German and Old Norse. I give below some further facts excavated from
              dictionaries:

              Cleasby and Vigfusson's Icelandic-English Dictionary, which is primarily
              about the old tongue, includes versions of both the Germanic "holy" words
              that have been mooted: they appear as "vígja" i.e. vigja with an acute accent
              on the first vowel, in case it gets corrupted in transmission, which is
              said to mean "consecrate" both in a Christian and in a non-Christian sense;
              and "heilagr" (the consonant at the end is inflexive) which means "holy",
              again in either a Christian or a non-Christian sense. The word is said to be
              derived from "heill" (whole) and to be consequently not so old as the
              primitive vé, veihs.

              "Heilagr" is also said to have been used as a lawterm to mean inviolable,
              one whose person is sacred, with the comment that this is undoubtedly the
              word's original sense.

              The Oxford English Dictionary under "holy" has the interesting remark that
              the word's sense "is expressed in the Gothic of Ulfilas by weihs (but
              hailag, apparently 'consecrated', 'dedicated' is read on a runic inscription
              generally held to be Gothic)".

              Less helpfully, the OED adds that "we cannot in Old English get behind
              Christian senses in which "holy" is equated with Latin sanctus, sacer".

              Gerry T.


              In a message dated 03/06/2012 23:59:45 GMT Daylight Time,
              marja-e@... writes:

              Thank you!

              That gets to another point - D.H. Green discusses how Wulfila almost
              exclusively refers to weihs and avoids hailags, and upper German texts
              use wih, while Anglo-Saxon and low/middle German texts almost
              exclusively refer to heilag. He argues that Wulfila chose weihs because
              hailags was associated with worldly luck and military victory.

              That leaves me wondering how early Gothic Christians would have felt
              about the greeting hails/haila/hailata. In these contexts, of course,
              it's Roman soldiers mocking Jesus. Perhaps some early Gothic Christians
              might have preferred fagino, and their pagan contemporaries might have
              used either or both greetings? Just a thought.

              On Sun, 2012-06-03 at 07:05 -0400, Grsartor@... wrote:
              >
              > A small discovery about the "hails" construction:
              >
              > remember that it occurs twice, in Mark and in John:
              >
              >
              > hails þiudan Iudaie - Mark 15:18 - Hail, [o] King of the Jews.
              > hails þiudans Iudaie - John 19:3 - Hail [the] King of the Jews.
              >
              > I wondered why John's version did not seem to have "king" as a
              > vocative,
              > and thought it might be due to carelessness. In a sense there was
              > carelessness: my own. If I had bothered to check the Greek in John's
              > version I should
              > have seen that it says
              >
              > hail (chaire - an imperative) the king of the Jews.
              >
              > But whereas John had the king word in the nominative (basileus) Mark
              > had it
              > in the vocative (basileu) and with no definite article. It therefore
              > looks
              > as if Wulfila was faithful to the material he translated, and the two
              > lines given above have been correctly transmitted to us.
              >
              > Incidentally, I wondered about the correctness of the Greek here,
              > since the
              > language the New Testament was written in is said to be often poor -
              > "impoverished and crippled" as a former Bishop of Birmingham put it,
              > though I am
              > not myself advanced enough to notice its deficiencies. I checked
              > Mark's
              > version in Vincent Taylor's Greek Text of Mark, and reproduce below
              > part of
              > what appears there, without pretending that I fully understand it:
              >
              > chaire, basileu corresponds to the Latin greeting Ave Caesar. The
              > vocative, which admits the royal right... is 'a note of the writer's
              > imperfect
              > sensibility to the more delicate shades of Greek idiom', Moulton,
              > i.71.
              >
              > Gerry T.
              >
              > In a message dated 01/06/2012 04:00:06 GMT Daylight Time,
              > r_scherp@... writes:
              >
              > Hails!
              >
              > Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between
              > adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an
              > adjective.
              > In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that
              > calls
              > for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate
              > a
              > similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a
              > valid
              > interpretation?
              >
              > Randulfs
              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions
              > with
              > not much meaning the singular can be generalized.
              > >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
              > email
              > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >




              ------------------------------------

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • marja erwin
              Can anyone recommend free open-source resources for Gothic in Ubuntu, or in Linux generally? Even typing is difficult, because I have to use an awkward
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 29, 2012
                Can anyone recommend free open-source resources for Gothic in Ubuntu, or
                in Linux generally?

                Even typing is difficult, because I have to use an awkward character
                selection menu for hvair. I would like a Gothic keyboard layout or the
                equivalent.

                Can anyone recommend fonts for Gothic, either? I know there are uncial
                fonts for the Gothic alphabet, but it would be handy to have the Gothic
                alphabet in modern fonts like Liberation Serif and Liberation Sans.

                Thanks!
              • Michael Everson
                ... The Irish Extended keyboard on the Mac OS has easy access to hwair: alt-; + h = ƕ, alt-; + H = Ƕ. I think (but do not know) that there is an Irish
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 30, 2012
                  On 30 Jul 2012, at 04:33, marja erwin wrote:

                  > Can anyone recommend free open-source resources for Gothic in Ubuntu, or in Linux generally?

                  The Irish Extended keyboard on the Mac OS has easy access to hwair: alt-; + h = ƕ, alt-; + H = Ƕ. I think (but do not know) that there is an Irish Extended keyboard on some flavour of Linux. If so, perhaps it copies my design for the Apple Irish Extended keyboard.

                  > Can anyone recommend fonts for Gothic, either? I know there are uncial fonts for the Gothic alphabet, but it would be handy to have the Gothic
                  > alphabet in modern fonts like Liberation Serif and Liberation Sans.

                  Everson Mono http://evertype.com/emono/ has Gothic, though I want to revise its glyphs. I like Sadagolthina http://evertype.com/fonts/gothic/ myself. But I would, wouldn't I?

                  Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
                • Abrigon
                  i had a font or two for the Gothich Language, but I think you can find it online someplace? Upsala or .. might do a search for Wulfilas or like name and see
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 30, 2012
                    i had a font or two for the Gothich Language, but I think you can find it
                    online someplace? Upsala or .. might do a search for Wulfilas or like name
                    and see what comes up?

                    The priest who created the Gothic script from earlier Greek and I see some
                    influences you also see in Coptic, but how so not sure.

                    Mike




                    On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 7:33 PM, marja erwin <marja-e@...> wrote:

                    > Can anyone recommend free open-source resources for Gothic in Ubuntu, or
                    > in Linux generally?
                    >
                    > Even typing is difficult, because I have to use an awkward character
                    > selection menu for hvair. I would like a Gothic keyboard layout or the
                    > equivalent.
                    >
                    > Can anyone recommend fonts for Gothic, either? I know there are uncial
                    > fonts for the Gothic alphabet, but it would be handy to have the Gothic
                    > alphabet in modern fonts like Liberation Serif and Liberation Sans.
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                    > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
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                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Adulthumor-L/
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abrigon-World/


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