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Re: [gothic-l] Greeting Hails

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  • Grsartor@aol.com
    I think it is reasonable to expect that hails would change like other adjectives. It is perhaps an implied imperative (it translates an imperative in the
    Message 1 of 18 , May 31, 2012
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      I think it is reasonable to expect that "hails" would change like other
      adjectives. It is perhaps an implied imperative (it translates an imperative
      in the original Greek), being in full something like

      be thou hale.

      The plural "hailai" is attested in the sense "hale/healthy", as in Matt
      9:12

      ni þaurbun hailai lekeis - the hale do not need a doctor.

      I am unsure why there is a slight difference between the versions in Mark
      and in John of the line "hail, King of the Jews":

      hails þiudan Iudaie - Mark 15:18
      hails þiudans Iudaie - John 19:3

      The first evidently has "þiudan" as a vocative. If the apparent nominative
      in John is not due to miscopying or looseness of usage it perhaps contains
      an implied subjunctive - [may] the King of the Jews [be] hale.

      Gerry T.



      In a message dated 30/05/2012 09:48:04 GMT Daylight Time,
      becareful_icanseeyourfuture@... writes:

      Hello/Hails,
      my question is: Does "Hails" change into something like "haila" or
      "hailos" when it is used to a female or to more people than one? I can hardly
      believe, that it wouldn't change and the greeting is just twice attested, in
      "John" and in "Mark".
      Þagka jah liubos goleinis,
      Kevin



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    • Thomas Ruhm
      In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with not much meaning the singular can be generalized.
      Message 2 of 18 , May 31, 2012
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        In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with not much meaning the singular can be generalized.
      • Kevin Behrens
        So, I would say, when greeting a male person it s: Hails. When greeting a female person: haila. When greeting a neuter thing (which is not often): Hailata. And
        Message 3 of 18 , May 31, 2012
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          So, I would say, when greeting a male person it's: Hails. When greeting a female person: haila. When greeting a neuter thing (which is not often): Hailata. And in Plural: Hailai, m; Hailos, f; Haila, n.
          Would you agree with that? It appears logically that the forms are declined for persons.

          To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          From: thomas@...
          Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 11:07:08 +0200
          Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Greeting Hails


























          In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with not much meaning the singular can be generalized.














          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Thorgeir Holm
          ... In Old Norse we find plural forms, but only in combined greetings, as far as I can find, e.g. the majestic plural «Verit heilir, konungr!» Þunragais
          Message 4 of 18 , May 31, 2012
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            31.05.12 15.30 wrait Kevin Behrens:
            > So, I would say, when greeting a male person it's: Hails. When greeting a female person: haila. When greeting a neuter thing (which is not often): Hailata. And in Plural: Hailai, m; Hailos, f; Haila, n.
            > Would you agree with that? It appears logically that the forms are declined for persons.

            In Old Norse we find plural forms, but only in combined greetings, as
            far as I can find, e.g. the majestic plural «Verit heilir, konungr!»

            Þunragais
          • Grsartor@aol.com
            Well, it looks as if we have a variety of suggestions: stick with hails in all circumstances, as the expression may have become formulaic; decline it for
            Message 5 of 18 , May 31, 2012
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              Well, it looks as if we have a variety of suggestions: stick with "hails"
              in all circumstances, as the expression may have become formulaic; decline
              it for gender and number in the normal way; or take a look at what Old Norse
              did, since it has bequeathed us a large body of literature, and the
              language distinguished genders in both singular and plural. It is a pity we no
              longer seem to have llama_nom, who could doubtless have informed us about
              this. The only further comment I can make about Old Norse usage is that in the
              example Þunragais gave us,

              verit heilir, konungr

              the use of a plural verb with plural adjective in a remark addressed to a
              king looks as if it might be a polite use of a plural for a logical singular
              such as we find in a lot of European tongues, including French and German
              (not to say English, in which the process has run its course by having the
              singular "thou/thee" ousted by the plural "ye/you"). Could Þunragais or
              others tell us more about the Old Norse practice?

              Gerry T.



              In a message dated 31/05/2012 14:30:49 GMT Daylight Time,
              becareful_icanseeyourfuture@... writes:


              So, I would say, when greeting a male person it's: Hails. When greeting a
              female person: haila. When greeting a neuter thing (which is not often):
              Hailata. And in Plural: Hailai, m; Hailos, f; Haila, n.
              Would you agree with that? It appears logically that the forms are
              declined for persons.

              To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
              From: thomas@...
              Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 11:07:08 +0200
              Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Greeting Hails


























              In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with
              not much meaning the singular can be generalized.














              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • Thorgeir Holm
              ... I found an even more interesting quote in Fritzner s dictionary: “Heil ok sæl, María!”, i.e. ‘Ave Maria’, which is an alone-standing ‘hails’
              Message 6 of 18 , May 31, 2012
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                31.05.12 21.29 wrait Grsartor@...:
                >
                >
                > The only further comment I can make about Old Norse usage is that in the
                > example Þunragais gave us,
                >
                > verit heilir, konungr
                >
                >
                > Could Þunragais or
                > others tell us more about the Old Norse practice?
                >
                >

                I found an even more interesting quote in Fritzner's dictionary: “Heil
                ok sæl, María!”, i.e. ‘Ave Maria’, which is an alone-standing ‘hails’ in
                the feminine. So it seems Old Norse did decline the greeting even if it
                was the one word variety.

                Þunragais


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • OSCAR HERRE
                yea whatever happened to him....he was  or is from england i presume......just wanted toget clarification on the use of the word  is ......like in english
                Message 7 of 18 , May 31, 2012
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                  yea whatever happened to him....he was  or is from england i presume......just wanted toget clarification on the use of the word  " is"......like in english its used as a preposition i think.....like he is fishing today...in goth would that be.....ina fiskandan ist dudag....

                  --- On Thu, 5/31/12, Grsartor@... <Grsartor@...> wrote:


                  From: Grsartor@... <Grsartor@...>
                  Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Greeting Hails
                  To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, May 31, 2012, 2:29 PM



                   



                  Well, it looks as if we have a variety of suggestions: stick with "hails"
                  in all circumstances, as the expression may have become formulaic; decline
                  it for gender and number in the normal way; or take a look at what Old Norse
                  did, since it has bequeathed us a large body of literature, and the
                  language distinguished genders in both singular and plural. It is a pity we no
                  longer seem to have llama_nom, who could doubtless have informed us about
                  this. The only further comment I can make about Old Norse usage is that in the
                  example Þunragais gave us,

                  verit heilir, konungr

                  the use of a plural verb with plural adjective in a remark addressed to a
                  king looks as if it might be a polite use of a plural for a logical singular
                  such as we find in a lot of European tongues, including French and German
                  (not to say English, in which the process has run its course by having the
                  singular "thou/thee" ousted by the plural "ye/you"). Could Þunragais or
                  others tell us more about the Old Norse practice?

                  Gerry T.

                  In a message dated 31/05/2012 14:30:49 GMT Daylight Time,
                  becareful_icanseeyourfuture@... writes:

                  So, I would say, when greeting a male person it's: Hails. When greeting a
                  female person: haila. When greeting a neuter thing (which is not often):
                  Hailata. And in Plural: Hailai, m; Hailos, f; Haila, n.
                  Would you agree with that? It appears logically that the forms are
                  declined for persons.

                  To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                  From: thomas@...
                  Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 11:07:08 +0200
                  Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Greeting Hails

                  In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with
                  not much meaning the singular can be generalized.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------

                  You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
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                • anheropl0x
                  In just about any other language, you never say subject is verb. It s always subject verb. He is fishing today would be Ïs fiskoth himma daga. The is
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 31, 2012
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                    In just about any other language, you never say "subject is verb." It's always "subject verb." "He is fishing today" would be "Ïs fiskoth himma daga." The is in English in your example is just English's piss poor grammar. He fishes today = He is fishing today.

                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRE <duke.co@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > yea whatever happened to him....he was  or is from england i presume......just wanted toget clarification on the use of the word  " is"......like in english its used as a preposition i think.....like he is fishing today...in goth would that be.....ina fiskandan ist dudag....
                    >
                    > --- On Thu, 5/31/12, Grsartor@... <Grsartor@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Grsartor@... <Grsartor@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Greeting Hails
                    > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Thursday, May 31, 2012, 2:29 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Well, it looks as if we have a variety of suggestions: stick with "hails"
                    > in all circumstances, as the expression may have become formulaic; decline
                    > it for gender and number in the normal way; or take a look at what Old Norse
                    > did, since it has bequeathed us a large body of literature, and the
                    > language distinguished genders in both singular and plural. It is a pity we no
                    > longer seem to have llama_nom, who could doubtless have informed us about
                    > this. The only further comment I can make about Old Norse usage is that in the
                    > example Þunragais gave us,
                    >
                    > verit heilir, konungr
                    >
                    > the use of a plural verb with plural adjective in a remark addressed to a
                    > king looks as if it might be a polite use of a plural for a logical singular
                    > such as we find in a lot of European tongues, including French and German
                    > (not to say English, in which the process has run its course by having the
                    > singular "thou/thee" ousted by the plural "ye/you"). Could Þunragais or
                    > others tell us more about the Old Norse practice?
                    >
                    > Gerry T.
                    >
                    > In a message dated 31/05/2012 14:30:49 GMT Daylight Time,
                    > becareful_icanseeyourfuture@... writes:
                    >
                    > So, I would say, when greeting a male person it's: Hails. When greeting a
                    > female person: haila. When greeting a neuter thing (which is not often):
                    > Hailata. And in Plural: Hailai, m; Hailos, f; Haila, n.
                    > Would you agree with that? It appears logically that the forms are
                    > declined for persons.
                    >
                    > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: thomas@...
                    > Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 11:07:08 +0200
                    > Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Greeting Hails
                    >
                    > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with
                    > not much meaning the singular can be generalized.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                    > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • r_scherp
                    Hails! Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between adjective and noun. In Verit heilir the word clearly appears as an adjective. In
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 31, 2012
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                      Hails!

                      Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an adjective. In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that calls for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate a similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a valid interpretation?

                      Randulfs
                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with not much meaning the singular can be generalized.
                      >
                    • Kevin Behrens
                      Hailai, on our website www.vereindergotischensprache.de I want to start a neogothic language course. And it s pretty difficult to invent konversational
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 1, 2012
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                        Hailai,
                        on our website www.vereindergotischensprache.de I want to start a neogothic language course. And it's pretty difficult to invent konversational phrases, the bible is not really known to have such ones attested. ;) I now choosed the declined forms. They can't be wrong and as far as I see we won't come to a real solution on this. And maybe some of the possibilities are right. On older Gothic the forms could have been declined and in later times the declination could have been reduced.

                        Another question is: How would you translate the phrase: How are you?
                        According to most languages I choosed: Hvaiwa is �u?
                        Would that be appropriate?

                        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                        From: r_scherp@...
                        Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 03:00:02 +0000
                        Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Greeting Hails




























                        Hails!



                        Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an adjective. In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that calls for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate a similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a valid interpretation?



                        Randulfs

                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:

                        >

                        > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with not much meaning the singular can be generalized.

                        >


















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Grsartor@aol.com
                        Herewith, something of a ragbag of what I am able to contribute to answering questions raised in recent posts. About the interpretation of the hail
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 2, 2012
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                          Herewith, something of a ragbag of what I am able to contribute to
                          answering questions raised in recent posts.

                          About the interpretation of the "hail" constructions attested in Gothic: I
                          would take "thiudan" to be vocative (o King) in

                          Hails thiudan - [be] hale o King

                          The alternative version with "thiudans" is trickier; it may be due to
                          miscopying or looseness of usage.

                          About the word order in

                          thiudiskaland thiudangardi ist: it might be worth while to look for some
                          examples in Wulfila, but bear in mind that he tends to stick closely to the
                          Greek he translates.

                          About how to say "how are you?". Gothic appears to have had a phrase "ubil
                          haban" (to have evil) or "ubilaba haban" (to have badly) for saying "to be
                          ill". But these look like very literal translations of the New Testament's
                          Greek (kakos echein = to have badly) and so we perhaps ought not to be too
                          eager to postulate a Gothic phrase literally meaning "how do you have?".
                          On the other hand, just such an expression for "how are you" is used in
                          Norwegian: hvordan har du det, which I think means "how do you have it?"

                          In answer to one other question, about the use of is/was + participle:
                          other European tongues than English seem to have sensibly avoided this curse,
                          but it does occur in Gothic, e.g. in Mark 1:21

                          was laisjands ins swe waldufni habands jah ni swaswe thai bokarjos - he
                          taught them (literally was teaching them) as one having authority and not
                          like the scribes.

                          However, Wulfila's Gothic here, as often, is a very literal rendition of
                          the original; Mark's Greek has the same construction. Unfortunately I am not
                          well versed enough in Greek to say how Mark's "was teaching" (en didaskon)
                          would have been felt to differ from a simple imperfect.

                          At a guess, the Goths did not normally use the construction in question.


                          Gerry T.




                          In a message dated 01/06/2012 16:30:10 GMT Daylight Time,
                          becareful_icanseeyourfuture@... writes:


                          Hailai,
                          on our website www.vereindergotischensprache.de I want to start a
                          neogothic language course. And it's pretty difficult to invent konversational
                          phrases, the bible is not really known to have such ones attested. ;) I now
                          choosed the declined forms. They can't be wrong and as far as I see we won't
                          come to a real solution on this. And maybe some of the possibilities are
                          right. On older Gothic the forms could have been declined and in later times
                          the declination could have been reduced.

                          Another question is: How would you translate the phrase: How are you?
                          According to most languages I choosed: Hvaiwa is þu?
                          Would that be appropriate?

                          To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                          From: r_scherp@...
                          Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 03:00:02 +0000
                          Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Greeting Hails




























                          Hails!



                          Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between
                          adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an adjective.
                          In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that calls
                          for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate a
                          similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a valid
                          interpretation?



                          Randulfs

                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:

                          >

                          > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with
                          not much meaning the singular can be generalized.

                          >


















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                        • Grsartor@aol.com
                          A small discovery about the hails construction: remember that it occurs twice, in Mark and in John: hails þiudan Iudaie - Mark 15:18 - Hail, [o] King of the
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 3, 2012
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                            A small discovery about the "hails" construction:

                            remember that it occurs twice, in Mark and in John:


                            hails þiudan Iudaie - Mark 15:18 - Hail, [o] King of the Jews.
                            hails þiudans Iudaie - John 19:3 - Hail [the] King of the Jews.

                            I wondered why John's version did not seem to have "king" as a vocative,
                            and thought it might be due to carelessness. In a sense there was
                            carelessness: my own. If I had bothered to check the Greek in John's version I should
                            have seen that it says

                            hail (chaire - an imperative) the king of the Jews.

                            But whereas John had the king word in the nominative (basileus) Mark had it
                            in the vocative (basileu) and with no definite article. It therefore looks
                            as if Wulfila was faithful to the material he translated, and the two
                            lines given above have been correctly transmitted to us.

                            Incidentally, I wondered about the correctness of the Greek here, since the
                            language the New Testament was written in is said to be often poor -
                            "impoverished and crippled" as a former Bishop of Birmingham put it, though I am
                            not myself advanced enough to notice its deficiencies. I checked Mark's
                            version in Vincent Taylor's Greek Text of Mark, and reproduce below part of
                            what appears there, without pretending that I fully understand it:

                            chaire, basileu corresponds to the Latin greeting Ave Caesar. The
                            vocative, which admits the royal right... is 'a note of the writer's imperfect
                            sensibility to the more delicate shades of Greek idiom', Moulton, i.71.

                            Gerry T.



                            In a message dated 01/06/2012 04:00:06 GMT Daylight Time,
                            r_scherp@... writes:


                            Hails!

                            Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between
                            adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an adjective.
                            In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that calls
                            for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate a
                            similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a valid
                            interpretation?

                            Randulfs
                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions with
                            not much meaning the singular can be generalized.
                            >




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                          • marja erwin
                            Thank you! That gets to another point - D.H. Green discusses how Wulfila almost exclusively refers to weihs and avoids hailags, and upper German texts use wih,
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 3, 2012
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                              Thank you!

                              That gets to another point - D.H. Green discusses how Wulfila almost
                              exclusively refers to weihs and avoids hailags, and upper German texts
                              use wih, while Anglo-Saxon and low/middle German texts almost
                              exclusively refer to heilag. He argues that Wulfila chose weihs because
                              hailags was associated with worldly luck and military victory.

                              That leaves me wondering how early Gothic Christians would have felt
                              about the greeting hails/haila/hailata. In these contexts, of course,
                              it's Roman soldiers mocking Jesus. Perhaps some early Gothic Christians
                              might have preferred fagino, and their pagan contemporaries might have
                              used either or both greetings? Just a thought.

                              On Sun, 2012-06-03 at 07:05 -0400, Grsartor@... wrote:
                              >
                              > A small discovery about the "hails" construction:
                              >
                              > remember that it occurs twice, in Mark and in John:
                              >
                              >
                              > hails þiudan Iudaie - Mark 15:18 - Hail, [o] King of the Jews.
                              > hails þiudans Iudaie - John 19:3 - Hail [the] King of the Jews.
                              >
                              > I wondered why John's version did not seem to have "king" as a
                              > vocative,
                              > and thought it might be due to carelessness. In a sense there was
                              > carelessness: my own. If I had bothered to check the Greek in John's
                              > version I should
                              > have seen that it says
                              >
                              > hail (chaire - an imperative) the king of the Jews.
                              >
                              > But whereas John had the king word in the nominative (basileus) Mark
                              > had it
                              > in the vocative (basileu) and with no definite article. It therefore
                              > looks
                              > as if Wulfila was faithful to the material he translated, and the two
                              > lines given above have been correctly transmitted to us.
                              >
                              > Incidentally, I wondered about the correctness of the Greek here,
                              > since the
                              > language the New Testament was written in is said to be often poor -
                              > "impoverished and crippled" as a former Bishop of Birmingham put it,
                              > though I am
                              > not myself advanced enough to notice its deficiencies. I checked
                              > Mark's
                              > version in Vincent Taylor's Greek Text of Mark, and reproduce below
                              > part of
                              > what appears there, without pretending that I fully understand it:
                              >
                              > chaire, basileu corresponds to the Latin greeting Ave Caesar. The
                              > vocative, which admits the royal right... is 'a note of the writer's
                              > imperfect
                              > sensibility to the more delicate shades of Greek idiom', Moulton,
                              > i.71.
                              >
                              > Gerry T.
                              >
                              > In a message dated 01/06/2012 04:00:06 GMT Daylight Time,
                              > r_scherp@... writes:
                              >
                              > Hails!
                              >
                              > Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between
                              > adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an
                              > adjective.
                              > In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that
                              > calls
                              > for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate
                              > a
                              > similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a
                              > valid
                              > interpretation?
                              >
                              > Randulfs
                              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions
                              > with
                              > not much meaning the singular can be generalized.
                              > >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                              > email
                              > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
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                            • Grsartor@aol.com
                              About whether some early Gothic Christians would have preferred fagino (rejoice) to hails : now that the matter has been mentioned, it does seem plausible;
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 4, 2012
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                                About whether some early Gothic Christians would have preferred "fagino"
                                (rejoice) to "hails": now that the matter has been mentioned, it does seem
                                plausible; for it translates the Greek chaire literally, and Wulfila is often
                                very literal in his renditions of the NT Greek. As for the use of "hail"
                                to refer to worldly luck and military success, such a noun use occurs in
                                both German and Old Norse. I give below some further facts excavated from
                                dictionaries:

                                Cleasby and Vigfusson's Icelandic-English Dictionary, which is primarily
                                about the old tongue, includes versions of both the Germanic "holy" words
                                that have been mooted: they appear as "vígja" i.e. vigja with an acute accent
                                on the first vowel, in case it gets corrupted in transmission, which is
                                said to mean "consecrate" both in a Christian and in a non-Christian sense;
                                and "heilagr" (the consonant at the end is inflexive) which means "holy",
                                again in either a Christian or a non-Christian sense. The word is said to be
                                derived from "heill" (whole) and to be consequently not so old as the
                                primitive vé, veihs.

                                "Heilagr" is also said to have been used as a lawterm to mean inviolable,
                                one whose person is sacred, with the comment that this is undoubtedly the
                                word's original sense.

                                The Oxford English Dictionary under "holy" has the interesting remark that
                                the word's sense "is expressed in the Gothic of Ulfilas by weihs (but
                                hailag, apparently 'consecrated', 'dedicated' is read on a runic inscription
                                generally held to be Gothic)".

                                Less helpfully, the OED adds that "we cannot in Old English get behind
                                Christian senses in which "holy" is equated with Latin sanctus, sacer".

                                Gerry T.


                                In a message dated 03/06/2012 23:59:45 GMT Daylight Time,
                                marja-e@... writes:

                                Thank you!

                                That gets to another point - D.H. Green discusses how Wulfila almost
                                exclusively refers to weihs and avoids hailags, and upper German texts
                                use wih, while Anglo-Saxon and low/middle German texts almost
                                exclusively refer to heilag. He argues that Wulfila chose weihs because
                                hailags was associated with worldly luck and military victory.

                                That leaves me wondering how early Gothic Christians would have felt
                                about the greeting hails/haila/hailata. In these contexts, of course,
                                it's Roman soldiers mocking Jesus. Perhaps some early Gothic Christians
                                might have preferred fagino, and their pagan contemporaries might have
                                used either or both greetings? Just a thought.

                                On Sun, 2012-06-03 at 07:05 -0400, Grsartor@... wrote:
                                >
                                > A small discovery about the "hails" construction:
                                >
                                > remember that it occurs twice, in Mark and in John:
                                >
                                >
                                > hails þiudan Iudaie - Mark 15:18 - Hail, [o] King of the Jews.
                                > hails þiudans Iudaie - John 19:3 - Hail [the] King of the Jews.
                                >
                                > I wondered why John's version did not seem to have "king" as a
                                > vocative,
                                > and thought it might be due to carelessness. In a sense there was
                                > carelessness: my own. If I had bothered to check the Greek in John's
                                > version I should
                                > have seen that it says
                                >
                                > hail (chaire - an imperative) the king of the Jews.
                                >
                                > But whereas John had the king word in the nominative (basileus) Mark
                                > had it
                                > in the vocative (basileu) and with no definite article. It therefore
                                > looks
                                > as if Wulfila was faithful to the material he translated, and the two
                                > lines given above have been correctly transmitted to us.
                                >
                                > Incidentally, I wondered about the correctness of the Greek here,
                                > since the
                                > language the New Testament was written in is said to be often poor -
                                > "impoverished and crippled" as a former Bishop of Birmingham put it,
                                > though I am
                                > not myself advanced enough to notice its deficiencies. I checked
                                > Mark's
                                > version in Vincent Taylor's Greek Text of Mark, and reproduce below
                                > part of
                                > what appears there, without pretending that I fully understand it:
                                >
                                > chaire, basileu corresponds to the Latin greeting Ave Caesar. The
                                > vocative, which admits the royal right... is 'a note of the writer's
                                > imperfect
                                > sensibility to the more delicate shades of Greek idiom', Moulton,
                                > i.71.
                                >
                                > Gerry T.
                                >
                                > In a message dated 01/06/2012 04:00:06 GMT Daylight Time,
                                > r_scherp@... writes:
                                >
                                > Hails!
                                >
                                > Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between
                                > adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an
                                > adjective.
                                > In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that
                                > calls
                                > for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate
                                > a
                                > similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a
                                > valid
                                > interpretation?
                                >
                                > Randulfs
                                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions
                                > with
                                > not much meaning the singular can be generalized.
                                > >
                                >
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                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >




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                              • marja erwin
                                Can anyone recommend free open-source resources for Gothic in Ubuntu, or in Linux generally? Even typing is difficult, because I have to use an awkward
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 29, 2012
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                                  Can anyone recommend free open-source resources for Gothic in Ubuntu, or
                                  in Linux generally?

                                  Even typing is difficult, because I have to use an awkward character
                                  selection menu for hvair. I would like a Gothic keyboard layout or the
                                  equivalent.

                                  Can anyone recommend fonts for Gothic, either? I know there are uncial
                                  fonts for the Gothic alphabet, but it would be handy to have the Gothic
                                  alphabet in modern fonts like Liberation Serif and Liberation Sans.

                                  Thanks!
                                • Michael Everson
                                  ... The Irish Extended keyboard on the Mac OS has easy access to hwair: alt-; + h = ƕ, alt-; + H = Ƕ. I think (but do not know) that there is an Irish
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 30, 2012
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                                    On 30 Jul 2012, at 04:33, marja erwin wrote:

                                    > Can anyone recommend free open-source resources for Gothic in Ubuntu, or in Linux generally?

                                    The Irish Extended keyboard on the Mac OS has easy access to hwair: alt-; + h = ƕ, alt-; + H = Ƕ. I think (but do not know) that there is an Irish Extended keyboard on some flavour of Linux. If so, perhaps it copies my design for the Apple Irish Extended keyboard.

                                    > Can anyone recommend fonts for Gothic, either? I know there are uncial fonts for the Gothic alphabet, but it would be handy to have the Gothic
                                    > alphabet in modern fonts like Liberation Serif and Liberation Sans.

                                    Everson Mono http://evertype.com/emono/ has Gothic, though I want to revise its glyphs. I like Sadagolthina http://evertype.com/fonts/gothic/ myself. But I would, wouldn't I?

                                    Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
                                  • Abrigon
                                    i had a font or two for the Gothich Language, but I think you can find it online someplace? Upsala or .. might do a search for Wulfilas or like name and see
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jul 30, 2012
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                                      i had a font or two for the Gothich Language, but I think you can find it
                                      online someplace? Upsala or .. might do a search for Wulfilas or like name
                                      and see what comes up?

                                      The priest who created the Gothic script from earlier Greek and I see some
                                      influences you also see in Coptic, but how so not sure.

                                      Mike




                                      On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 7:33 PM, marja erwin <marja-e@...> wrote:

                                      > Can anyone recommend free open-source resources for Gothic in Ubuntu, or
                                      > in Linux generally?
                                      >
                                      > Even typing is difficult, because I have to use an awkward character
                                      > selection menu for hvair. I would like a Gothic keyboard layout or the
                                      > equivalent.
                                      >
                                      > Can anyone recommend fonts for Gothic, either? I know there are uncial
                                      > fonts for the Gothic alphabet, but it would be handy to have the Gothic
                                      > alphabet in modern fonts like Liberation Serif and Liberation Sans.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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                                      >
                                      > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                                      > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


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