Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [gothic-l] How to write sh-sound?

Expand Messages
  • Michael Everson
    ... And many people who are interested in Gothic, also speakers of Germanic languages, may very well not prefer sh . Germans might prefer sch . Certainly
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 19 3:29 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      On 19 Mar 2012, at 22:10, Kevin Behrens wrote:

      > The thing with English learners is, for them the "sh" is already really common and familiar.

      And many people who are interested in Gothic, also speakers of Germanic languages, may very well not prefer "sh". Germans might prefer "sch". Certainly "sj" is widespread, found in Dutch, Icelandic, Swedish, and Norwegian. In terms of "marking a sibilant for palatalization" I think that a Jot has more gravitas than a Ha.

      > And sure, <sh> could be devided into two syllables, but that should be clear when reading it. But there is no other possible pronounciation thinkable, except maybe an aspirated [s]. If we all decide about <sj> as to be [ʃ] we will always have the problem of ambiguation between [ʃ] and [sj]. For "foreign" people this might end in confusion. This is my biggest problem with this version.

      I don't know who "foreign" people are, but all you're talking about is where the ambiguity is held. It's either between S-H or between S-J in that case. But I suppose that readers of Gothic

      > I already talked to Robert Pfeffer, the creator of the Gothic fonts,

      Of "the" Gothic fonts? I have made two Gothic fonts. Everson Mono supports Gothic in glorious monowidth, and Sadagolthina is based on the recommendations of Fairbanks and Magoun.

      > if he had time for creating and extended gothic font with added signs for not-gothic transcription.

      Added signs?

      > But he doesn't have the time for it. In the gothic wikipedia we have to big problem, that we don't have any rules of transcription from English to Gothic yet. I would be really happy if this discussion will go further and might end into a set of rules for a standardized transcription.

      Well, you start with phonology. Unifon and Deseret and Shavian transcriptions may help, but it would be good not to get all tied up in knots about British vs American pronunciation. In deference to J.R.R. Tolkien, a pioneer in Revived Gothic, I would suggest using the former.

      > If we could make changings on the gothic font, we could make a sign for <sj> that both letters are a bit more closer so that they appear more as belonging together.

      I would not counsel inventing new Gothic letters as they will not get into Unicode.

      Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
    • Michael Everson
      ... Proposed for Gothic. 𐍃𐌾 [sj] [sʲ] [ʃ] 𐍄𐍃𐌾 [tsj] [tsʲ] [tʃ] 𐌶𐌾 [zj] [zʲ] [ʒ] 𐌳𐌶𐌾 [dzj] [dzʲ]
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 19 3:31 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        On 19 Mar 2012, at 22:05, Thomas Ruhm wrote:

        > Yes. I am interested. Go for it.


        Proposed for Gothic.
        𐍃𐌾 [sj] > [sʲ] > [ʃ]
        𐍄𐍃𐌾 [tsj] > [tsʲ] > [tʃ]
        𐌶𐌾 [zj] > [zʲ] > [ʒ]
        𐌳𐌶𐌾 [dzj] > [dzʲ] > [dʒ]

        Greek dialects which have these fricatives:
        Tsakonian:
        ΣΧ [sx] = [ʃ]
        ΤΣΧ [tsx] = [tʃ]
        ΡΖ [rz] = [ʒ]

        Pontic:
        ΣΣ [ss] = [ʃ]
        ΤΣ [ts] = [tʃ]
        ΖΖ [zz] = [ʒ]
        ΤΖ [tz] = [dʒ]

        Cypriot:
        ΣΙ [si] = [ʃ]
        ΤΣΙ [tsi] = [tʃ]
        TΖ [tz] = [ʒ] (conjecture)
        ΤΖΙ [tzi] = [dʒ] (conjecture)

        I suspect that mdoern Greeks do not use Δ because for them it is [ð] not [d].

        Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
      • Kevin Behrens
        ... supports Gothic in glorious monowidth, and Sadagolthina is based on the recommendations of Fairbanks and Magoun. Oh, I m sorry. :S I didn t know that.
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 19 3:59 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          > Of "the" Gothic fonts? I have made two Gothic fonts. Everson Mono
          supports Gothic in glorious monowidth, and Sadagolthina is based on the
          recommendations of Fairbanks and Magoun.
          Oh, I'm sorry. :S I didn't know that. Actually, I like Sadagolthina.

          > I would not counsel inventing new Gothic letters as they will not get into Unicode.
          Yes, that's true.


          To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          From: everson@...
          Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 22:29:13 +0000
          Subject: Re: [gothic-l] How to write sh-sound?




























          On 19 Mar 2012, at 22:10, Kevin Behrens wrote:



          > The thing with English learners is, for them the "sh" is already really common and familiar.



          And many people who are interested in Gothic, also speakers of Germanic languages, may very well not prefer "sh". Germans might prefer "sch". Certainly "sj" is widespread, found in Dutch, Icelandic, Swedish, and Norwegian. In terms of "marking a sibilant for palatalization" I think that a Jot has more gravitas than a Ha.



          > And sure, <sh> could be devided into two syllables, but that should be clear when reading it. But there is no other possible pronounciation thinkable, except maybe an aspirated [s]. If we all decide about <sj> as to be [ʃ] we will always have the problem of ambiguation between [ʃ] and [sj]. For "foreign" people this might end in confusion. This is my biggest problem with this version.



          I don't know who "foreign" people are, but all you're talking about is where the ambiguity is held. It's either between S-H or between S-J in that case. But I suppose that readers of Gothic



          > I already talked to Robert Pfeffer, the creator of the Gothic fonts,



          Of "the" Gothic fonts? I have made two Gothic fonts. Everson Mono supports Gothic in glorious monowidth, and Sadagolthina is based on the recommendations of Fairbanks and Magoun.



          > if he had time for creating and extended gothic font with added signs for not-gothic transcription.



          Added signs?



          > But he doesn't have the time for it. In the gothic wikipedia we have to big problem, that we don't have any rules of transcription from English to Gothic yet. I would be really happy if this discussion will go further and might end into a set of rules for a standardized transcription.



          Well, you start with phonology. Unifon and Deseret and Shavian transcriptions may help, but it would be good not to get all tied up in knots about British vs American pronunciation. In deference to J.R.R. Tolkien, a pioneer in Revived Gothic, I would suggest using the former.



          > If we could make changings on the gothic font, we could make a sign for <sj> that both letters are a bit more closer so that they appear more as belonging together.



          I would not counsel inventing new Gothic letters as they will not get into Unicode.



          Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mike Adams
          http://www.omniglot.com/writing/ For many languages but Goth and like are there? http://www.omniglot.com/writing/gothic.htm
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 19 4:26 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            http://www.omniglot.com/writing/

            For many languages but Goth and like are there?

            http://www.omniglot.com/writing/gothic.htm

            http://www.omniglot.com/writing/runic.htm#gothic

            Mike
            Alaska

            Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
          • Thomas Ruhm
            If there are words with sj in Gothic they could be pronounced like with english sh or the other way round because it is a minor difference. One could just
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 19 4:48 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              If there are words with 'sj' in Gothic they could be pronounced like with english 'sh' or the other way round because it is a minor difference. One could just take it as a gothic accent to say 'sj' instead of 'sh' or it is gothic to say both as 'sh', depending on which one is more realistic. That 'ddj' in comparison is said to the same sound as in Magyar. That would make spoken 'sh' more probable, when I think about it.

              /Thomas (you know)
            • Michael Everson
              ... I don t actually follow this at all. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 19 5:17 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                On 19 Mar 2012, at 23:48, Thomas Ruhm wrote:

                > If there are words with 'sj' in Gothic they could be pronounced like with english 'sh' or the other way round because it is a minor difference. One could just take it as a gothic accent to say 'sj' instead of 'sh' or it is gothic to say both as 'sh', depending on which one is more realistic. That 'ddj' in comparison is said to the same sound as in Magyar. That would make spoken 'sh' more probable, when I think about it.

                I don't actually follow this at all.

                Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
              • Thomas Ruhm
                I was saying that sj and sh might have been pronounced the same by a Goth anyway. I did not check that.
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 21 5:03 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  I was saying that 'sj' and 'sh' might have been pronounced the same by a Goth anyway. I did not check that.
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.