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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Some words

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  • Grsartor@aol.com
    Hailai, Herewith, a few comments about suggestions for words not attested in Gothic, though probably not much in the way of material help. The season-word we
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 26, 2012
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      Hailai,

      Herewith, a few comments about suggestions for words not attested in
      Gothic, though probably not much in the way of material help.

      The season-word we can be the most confident about is "wintrus", occurring
      in John 10:22. "Asans" is attested for summer, but it translates Greek
      words that seem to have a sense of "harvest": theros and therismos. I do not
      know whether for the Greeks the harvest was regarded as part of summer; but
      if so, perhaps Wulfila would have chosen some other word if he had not been
      influenced by the language he was translating.

      As for the other seasons, I do not know whether there was much uniformity
      among the Germanic peoples in their names for spring and autumn, since it is
      said they divided the year into only two seasons, winter and summer. The
      German Lenz (cognate with English Lent) is said to derive from len(gi)zin,
      from *langat-tin, which had the meaning "having long days". Icelandic "vor"
      looks like Latin "ver", but whether they are related I do not know.

      The word German and English share for "autumn" is Herbst/harvest. How this
      is related to Icelandic "haust", if at all, I do not know.

      For a way of saying "too", in a sense that implies excess, perhaps
      "ufar"might be used. It occurs in "ufarfulls" = overfull, and looks like Icelandic
      of/ofur, which has the same sense. However, "ufar" by no means seems to
      have a general tendency to indicate excess: for example "ufargaggan" means to
      go over, to cross, rather than to go too far, and there are several other
      constructions that have "ufar" not implying that something has been done to
      excess.

      For a word meaning to oppose, resist, or the like, use could possibly be
      made of something meaning to fight or contend (e.g. haifstjan, weihan)
      followed by "withra" + accusative = against. In Codex A of Romans 9:13 a form of
      "andweihan" means "warring against". And in Luke 18:3 "andastathjis" is an
      adversary, from which we might conjecture a verb "and(a)standan (?)

      For a verb meaning to depart, "twisstandan" occurs in 2Cor 2:13 for "depart
      from".

      I am afraid the above contains more caveats and confessions of ignorance
      than assertions, but owing to the dearth of replies to the original questions
      I offer it for what it is worth.

      Making words up to fill the gaps in what we know of Gothic is an enterprise
      that deserves careful thought and diligent investigation; it would be easy
      to do it badly. I am therefore reluctant to roll my own Gothic. To
      postulate a Gothic word corresponding to something that is common Germanic (e.g. a
      word for "green") requires a knowledge of how sounds have changed in the
      various Germanic tongues, and in particular of how they changed in Gothic. I
      believe many reconstructions were done long ago by Jakob Grimm. For
      present help, if Llama_nom is still active he would be a valuable source of
      advice.

      Gerry T.




      In a message dated 25/02/2012 05:50:44 GMT Standard Time,
      anheropl0x@... writes:

      Also, German Abschied (parting or farewell). Pretty obvious it would come
      from something like the verb afskaidan, though the verb to bid farewell is
      andqithan, I believe.

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm currently on my phone, so I can't access any of the neoglism files,
      but I was curious what you might think the translations of these two
      words/phrases are.
      >
      > Resistance (Widerstand)
      > Too many (zu viel)
      >
      > I found in one dictionary that has andstandan for to resist, but I'm not
      sure which suffix to use to make it a noun. I haven't looked at wiktionary
      yet, but I doubt it will have much (I often reconstruct from
      proto-germanic or go by analogy of another Germanic language). If I can think of any
      more words, I will add them.
      >




      ------------------------------------

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    • Ingemar Nordgren
      Hi, I dare say nothing more serious but I can conclude that in Swedish spring is vår pronounced like the Icelandic vor . Autumn is höst having the same
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 26, 2012
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        Hi,

        I dare say nothing more serious but I can conclude that in Swedish spring is 'vår' pronounced like the Icelandic 'vor'. Autumn is 'höst' having the same sense as harwest/Herbst - to gather together the harwest was called to 'hösta' in older times. I am as well sceptical to 'asans' and think it should be something like 'sommar´as in other Gmc. languages.

        Best
        Ingemar

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@... wrote:
        >
        > Hailai,
        >

        "Asans" is attested for summer, but it translates Greek
        > words that seem to have a sense of "harvest": theros and therismos. I do not
        > know whether for the Greeks the harvest was regarded as part of summer; but
        > if so, perhaps Wulfila would have chosen some other word if he had not been
        > influenced by the language he was translating.
        >
        > As for the other seasons, I do not know whether there was much uniformity
        > among the Germanic peoples in their names for spring and autumn, since it is
        > said they divided the year into only two seasons, winter and summer. The
        > German Lenz (cognate with English Lent) is said to derive from len(gi)zin,
        > from *langat-tin, which had the meaning "having long days". Icelandic "vor"
        > looks like Latin "ver", but whether they are related I do not know.
        >
        > The word German and English share for "autumn" is Herbst/harvest. How this
        > is related to Icelandic "haust", if at all, I do not know.
      • Kevin Behrens
        Hey, I might dare aswell, that asans is the real word for summer. Asans also means harvest/Ernte etc. Can t it be that Wulfila used it for both terms, summer
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 27, 2012
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          Hey,
          I might dare aswell, that asans is the real word for summer. Asans also means harvest/Ernte etc. Can't it be that Wulfila used it for both terms, summer and harvest? He lived in southern Europe, where the difference between summer/winter and spring/fall isn't always so clear. Maybe he didn't really know how to use the word for summer. And maybe the words f�r spring and fall didn't get it to the South since they didn't really had these seasons. For summer I would either say "sumars/summars" or "somars/sommars". I am not sure about the o and the double m. The word for fall and harvest could be tricky. It either is cognate with the Proto-Northern-Germanic and dropped the r and the b and turned into something like: "hausts" or it kept the sounds and is "harbists". What would you say?

          To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          From: ingemar@...
          Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 00:55:03 +0000
          Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Some words




























          Hi,



          I dare say nothing more serious but I can conclude that in Swedish spring is 'v�r' pronounced like the Icelandic 'vor'. Autumn is 'h�st' having the same sense as harwest/Herbst - to gather together the harwest was called to 'h�sta' in older times. I am as well sceptical to 'asans' and think it should be something like 'sommar�as in other Gmc. languages.



          Best

          Ingemar



          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@... wrote:

          >

          > Hailai,

          >



          "Asans" is attested for summer, but it translates Greek

          > words that seem to have a sense of "harvest": theros and therismos. I do not

          > know whether for the Greeks the harvest was regarded as part of summer; but

          > if so, perhaps Wulfila would have chosen some other word if he had not been

          > influenced by the language he was translating.

          >

          > As for the other seasons, I do not know whether there was much uniformity

          > among the Germanic peoples in their names for spring and autumn, since it is

          > said they divided the year into only two seasons, winter and summer. The

          > German Lenz (cognate with English Lent) is said to derive from len(gi)zin,

          > from *langat-tin, which had the meaning "having long days". Icelandic "vor"

          > looks like Latin "ver", but whether they are related I do not know.

          >

          > The word German and English share for "autumn" is Herbst/harvest. How this

          > is related to Icelandic "haust", if at all, I do not know.


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • marja erwin
          Good point. I m not sure about the agricultural calendar on the lower Danube, but Ukrainian month-names hint at the agricultural calendar on the Dnipr:
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 27, 2012
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            Good point.

            I'm not sure about the agricultural calendar on the lower Danube, but
            Ukrainian month-names hint at the agricultural calendar on the Dnipr:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_months

            and it looks like the main harvest was/is in August:

            > 8 August Серпень Serpen' month of the sickle

            Of course, the name had changed, but the harvest and it's timing cannot
            have changed between Gothic and early Slavic times.

            On Mon, 2012-02-27 at 12:28 +0100, Kevin Behrens wrote:
            > Hey,
            > I might dare aswell, that asans is the real word for summer. Asans also means harvest/Ernte etc. Can't it be that Wulfila used it for both terms, summer and harvest? He lived in southern Europe, where the difference between summer/winter and spring/fall isn't always so clear. Maybe he didn't really know how to use the word for summer. And maybe the words fr spring and fall didn't get it to the South since they didn't really had these seasons. For summer I would either say "sumars/summars" or "somars/sommars". I am not sure about the o and the double m. The word for fall and harvest could be tricky. It either is cognate with the Proto-Northern-Germanic and dropped the r and the b and turned into something like: "hausts" or it kept the sounds and is "harbists". What would you say?
          • gotenfreund
            That s interesting, Marja. I followed some of the other month-name links from the same article; they give a good idea of harvest time in the Balkan region:
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 27, 2012
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              That's interesting, Marja.

              I followed some of the other month-name links from the same article; they give a good idea of harvest time in the Balkan region:

              Croatian: srpanj, "harvest", July

              Macedonian (Slav): zhetvar, "harvest", June

              Bulgarian: serpen/zhatvar, "harvest", July

              seems to be what we would call mid- to late summer.

              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, marja erwin <marja-e@...> wrote:
              >
              > Good point.
              >
              > I'm not sure about the agricultural calendar on the lower Danube, but
              > Ukrainian month-names hint at the agricultural calendar on the Dnipr:
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_months
              >
              > and it looks like the main harvest was/is in August:
              >
              > > 8 August Серпень Serpen' month of the sickle
              >
              > Of course, the name had changed, but the harvest and it's timing cannot
              > have changed between Gothic and early Slavic times.
              >
              > On Mon, 2012-02-27 at 12:28 +0100, Kevin Behrens wrote:
              > > Hey,
              > > I might dare aswell, that asans is the real word for summer. Asans also means harvest/Ernte etc. Can't it be that Wulfila used it for both terms, summer and harvest? He lived in southern Europe, where the difference between summer/winter and spring/fall isn't always so clear. Maybe he didn't really know how to use the word for summer. And maybe the words fr spring and fall didn't get it to the South since they didn't really had these seasons. For summer I would either say "sumars/summars" or "somars/sommars". I am not sure about the o and the double m. The word for fall and harvest could be tricky. It either is cognate with the Proto-Northern-Germanic and dropped the r and the b and turned into something like: "hausts" or it kept the sounds and is "harbists". What would you say?
              >
            • Frithureiks
              I would assume that Lent (lenten) would correspond to a gothic *laggateins where the latter part is the same as in sinteino and cognate to slavic den = day.
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 11, 2012
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                I would assume that Lent (lenten) would correspond to a gothic *laggateins where the latter part is the same as in sinteino and cognate to slavic den = day.

                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@... wrote:
                >
                > Hailai,
                >
                > Herewith, a few comments about suggestions for words not attested in
                > Gothic, though probably not much in the way of material help.
                >
                > The season-word we can be the most confident about is "wintrus", occurring
                > in John 10:22. "Asans" is attested for summer, but it translates Greek
                > words that seem to have a sense of "harvest": theros and therismos. I do not
                > know whether for the Greeks the harvest was regarded as part of summer; but
                > if so, perhaps Wulfila would have chosen some other word if he had not been
                > influenced by the language he was translating.
                >
                > As for the other seasons, I do not know whether there was much uniformity
                > among the Germanic peoples in their names for spring and autumn, since it is
                > said they divided the year into only two seasons, winter and summer. The
                > German Lenz (cognate with English Lent) is said to derive from len(gi)zin,
                > from *langat-tin, which had the meaning "having long days". Icelandic "vor"
                > looks like Latin "ver", but whether they are related I do not know.
                >
                > The word German and English share for "autumn" is Herbst/harvest. How this
                > is related to Icelandic "haust", if at all, I do not know.
                >
                > For a way of saying "too", in a sense that implies excess, perhaps
                > "ufar"might be used. It occurs in "ufarfulls" = overfull, and looks like Icelandic
                > of/ofur, which has the same sense. However, "ufar" by no means seems to
                > have a general tendency to indicate excess: for example "ufargaggan" means to
                > go over, to cross, rather than to go too far, and there are several other
                > constructions that have "ufar" not implying that something has been done to
                > excess.
                >
                > For a word meaning to oppose, resist, or the like, use could possibly be
                > made of something meaning to fight or contend (e.g. haifstjan, weihan)
                > followed by "withra" + accusative = against. In Codex A of Romans 9:13 a form of
                > "andweihan" means "warring against". And in Luke 18:3 "andastathjis" is an
                > adversary, from which we might conjecture a verb "and(a)standan (?)
                >
                > For a verb meaning to depart, "twisstandan" occurs in 2Cor 2:13 for "depart
                > from".
                >
                > I am afraid the above contains more caveats and confessions of ignorance
                > than assertions, but owing to the dearth of replies to the original questions
                > I offer it for what it is worth.
                >
                > Making words up to fill the gaps in what we know of Gothic is an enterprise
                > that deserves careful thought and diligent investigation; it would be easy
                > to do it badly. I am therefore reluctant to roll my own Gothic. To
                > postulate a Gothic word corresponding to something that is common Germanic (e.g. a
                > word for "green") requires a knowledge of how sounds have changed in the
                > various Germanic tongues, and in particular of how they changed in Gothic. I
                > believe many reconstructions were done long ago by Jakob Grimm. For
                > present help, if Llama_nom is still active he would be a valuable source of
                > advice.
                >
                > Gerry T.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 25/02/2012 05:50:44 GMT Standard Time,
                > anheropl0x@... writes:
                >
                > Also, German Abschied (parting or farewell). Pretty obvious it would come
                > from something like the verb afskaidan, though the verb to bid farewell is
                > andqithan, I believe.
                >
                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I'm currently on my phone, so I can't access any of the neoglism files,
                > but I was curious what you might think the translations of these two
                > words/phrases are.
                > >
                > > Resistance (Widerstand)
                > > Too many (zu viel)
                > >
                > > I found in one dictionary that has andstandan for to resist, but I'm not
                > sure which suffix to use to make it a noun. I haven't looked at wiktionary
                > yet, but I doubt it will have much (I often reconstruct from
                > proto-germanic or go by analogy of another Germanic language). If I can think of any
                > more words, I will add them.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
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