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RE: [gothic-l] Re: Some words

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  • Kevin Behrens
    Hello, for german Abschied there could also be the possibility by twisstandan , so Twisstand . Andqithan would be a little more in the sense of
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 25, 2012
      Hello,
      for german "Abschied" there could also be the possibility by "twisstandan", so "Twisstand". "Andqithan" would be a little more in the sense of "entsagen".
      Even we could etymological reconstruct "afskeidan" we shouldn't do it since it is apparently not used for that sense.

      "Zu viel/too much" would be as far as I think: "du filu". "Resistance" would then be "Andstand".
      I would say you can build nouns of verbs by just dropping the ending and then change the ablaut. In this case the vocal stays the same.

      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      From: anheropl0x@...
      Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 05:50:36 +0000
      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Some words




























      Also, German Abschied (parting or farewell). Pretty obvious it would come from something like the verb afskaidan, though the verb to bid farewell is andqithan, I believe.



      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@...> wrote:

      >

      > I'm currently on my phone, so I can't access any of the neoglism files, but I was curious what you might think the translations of these two words/phrases are.

      >

      > Resistance (Widerstand)

      > Too many (zu viel)

      >

      > I found in one dictionary that has andstandan for to resist, but I'm not sure which suffix to use to make it a noun. I haven't looked at wiktionary yet, but I doubt it will have much (I often reconstruct from proto-germanic or go by analogy of another Germanic language). If I can think of any more words, I will add them.

      >


















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Grsartor@aol.com
      Hailai, Herewith, a few comments about suggestions for words not attested in Gothic, though probably not much in the way of material help. The season-word we
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 26, 2012
        Hailai,

        Herewith, a few comments about suggestions for words not attested in
        Gothic, though probably not much in the way of material help.

        The season-word we can be the most confident about is "wintrus", occurring
        in John 10:22. "Asans" is attested for summer, but it translates Greek
        words that seem to have a sense of "harvest": theros and therismos. I do not
        know whether for the Greeks the harvest was regarded as part of summer; but
        if so, perhaps Wulfila would have chosen some other word if he had not been
        influenced by the language he was translating.

        As for the other seasons, I do not know whether there was much uniformity
        among the Germanic peoples in their names for spring and autumn, since it is
        said they divided the year into only two seasons, winter and summer. The
        German Lenz (cognate with English Lent) is said to derive from len(gi)zin,
        from *langat-tin, which had the meaning "having long days". Icelandic "vor"
        looks like Latin "ver", but whether they are related I do not know.

        The word German and English share for "autumn" is Herbst/harvest. How this
        is related to Icelandic "haust", if at all, I do not know.

        For a way of saying "too", in a sense that implies excess, perhaps
        "ufar"might be used. It occurs in "ufarfulls" = overfull, and looks like Icelandic
        of/ofur, which has the same sense. However, "ufar" by no means seems to
        have a general tendency to indicate excess: for example "ufargaggan" means to
        go over, to cross, rather than to go too far, and there are several other
        constructions that have "ufar" not implying that something has been done to
        excess.

        For a word meaning to oppose, resist, or the like, use could possibly be
        made of something meaning to fight or contend (e.g. haifstjan, weihan)
        followed by "withra" + accusative = against. In Codex A of Romans 9:13 a form of
        "andweihan" means "warring against". And in Luke 18:3 "andastathjis" is an
        adversary, from which we might conjecture a verb "and(a)standan (?)

        For a verb meaning to depart, "twisstandan" occurs in 2Cor 2:13 for "depart
        from".

        I am afraid the above contains more caveats and confessions of ignorance
        than assertions, but owing to the dearth of replies to the original questions
        I offer it for what it is worth.

        Making words up to fill the gaps in what we know of Gothic is an enterprise
        that deserves careful thought and diligent investigation; it would be easy
        to do it badly. I am therefore reluctant to roll my own Gothic. To
        postulate a Gothic word corresponding to something that is common Germanic (e.g. a
        word for "green") requires a knowledge of how sounds have changed in the
        various Germanic tongues, and in particular of how they changed in Gothic. I
        believe many reconstructions were done long ago by Jakob Grimm. For
        present help, if Llama_nom is still active he would be a valuable source of
        advice.

        Gerry T.




        In a message dated 25/02/2012 05:50:44 GMT Standard Time,
        anheropl0x@... writes:

        Also, German Abschied (parting or farewell). Pretty obvious it would come
        from something like the verb afskaidan, though the verb to bid farewell is
        andqithan, I believe.

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm currently on my phone, so I can't access any of the neoglism files,
        but I was curious what you might think the translations of these two
        words/phrases are.
        >
        > Resistance (Widerstand)
        > Too many (zu viel)
        >
        > I found in one dictionary that has andstandan for to resist, but I'm not
        sure which suffix to use to make it a noun. I haven't looked at wiktionary
        yet, but I doubt it will have much (I often reconstruct from
        proto-germanic or go by analogy of another Germanic language). If I can think of any
        more words, I will add them.
        >




        ------------------------------------

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ingemar Nordgren
        Hi, I dare say nothing more serious but I can conclude that in Swedish spring is vår pronounced like the Icelandic vor . Autumn is höst having the same
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 26, 2012
          Hi,

          I dare say nothing more serious but I can conclude that in Swedish spring is 'vår' pronounced like the Icelandic 'vor'. Autumn is 'höst' having the same sense as harwest/Herbst - to gather together the harwest was called to 'hösta' in older times. I am as well sceptical to 'asans' and think it should be something like 'sommar´as in other Gmc. languages.

          Best
          Ingemar

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@... wrote:
          >
          > Hailai,
          >

          "Asans" is attested for summer, but it translates Greek
          > words that seem to have a sense of "harvest": theros and therismos. I do not
          > know whether for the Greeks the harvest was regarded as part of summer; but
          > if so, perhaps Wulfila would have chosen some other word if he had not been
          > influenced by the language he was translating.
          >
          > As for the other seasons, I do not know whether there was much uniformity
          > among the Germanic peoples in their names for spring and autumn, since it is
          > said they divided the year into only two seasons, winter and summer. The
          > German Lenz (cognate with English Lent) is said to derive from len(gi)zin,
          > from *langat-tin, which had the meaning "having long days". Icelandic "vor"
          > looks like Latin "ver", but whether they are related I do not know.
          >
          > The word German and English share for "autumn" is Herbst/harvest. How this
          > is related to Icelandic "haust", if at all, I do not know.
        • Kevin Behrens
          Hey, I might dare aswell, that asans is the real word for summer. Asans also means harvest/Ernte etc. Can t it be that Wulfila used it for both terms, summer
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 27, 2012
            Hey,
            I might dare aswell, that asans is the real word for summer. Asans also means harvest/Ernte etc. Can't it be that Wulfila used it for both terms, summer and harvest? He lived in southern Europe, where the difference between summer/winter and spring/fall isn't always so clear. Maybe he didn't really know how to use the word for summer. And maybe the words f�r spring and fall didn't get it to the South since they didn't really had these seasons. For summer I would either say "sumars/summars" or "somars/sommars". I am not sure about the o and the double m. The word for fall and harvest could be tricky. It either is cognate with the Proto-Northern-Germanic and dropped the r and the b and turned into something like: "hausts" or it kept the sounds and is "harbists". What would you say?

            To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
            From: ingemar@...
            Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 00:55:03 +0000
            Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Some words




























            Hi,



            I dare say nothing more serious but I can conclude that in Swedish spring is 'v�r' pronounced like the Icelandic 'vor'. Autumn is 'h�st' having the same sense as harwest/Herbst - to gather together the harwest was called to 'h�sta' in older times. I am as well sceptical to 'asans' and think it should be something like 'sommar�as in other Gmc. languages.



            Best

            Ingemar



            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@... wrote:

            >

            > Hailai,

            >



            "Asans" is attested for summer, but it translates Greek

            > words that seem to have a sense of "harvest": theros and therismos. I do not

            > know whether for the Greeks the harvest was regarded as part of summer; but

            > if so, perhaps Wulfila would have chosen some other word if he had not been

            > influenced by the language he was translating.

            >

            > As for the other seasons, I do not know whether there was much uniformity

            > among the Germanic peoples in their names for spring and autumn, since it is

            > said they divided the year into only two seasons, winter and summer. The

            > German Lenz (cognate with English Lent) is said to derive from len(gi)zin,

            > from *langat-tin, which had the meaning "having long days". Icelandic "vor"

            > looks like Latin "ver", but whether they are related I do not know.

            >

            > The word German and English share for "autumn" is Herbst/harvest. How this

            > is related to Icelandic "haust", if at all, I do not know.


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • marja erwin
            Good point. I m not sure about the agricultural calendar on the lower Danube, but Ukrainian month-names hint at the agricultural calendar on the Dnipr:
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 27, 2012
              Good point.

              I'm not sure about the agricultural calendar on the lower Danube, but
              Ukrainian month-names hint at the agricultural calendar on the Dnipr:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_months

              and it looks like the main harvest was/is in August:

              > 8 August Серпень Serpen' month of the sickle

              Of course, the name had changed, but the harvest and it's timing cannot
              have changed between Gothic and early Slavic times.

              On Mon, 2012-02-27 at 12:28 +0100, Kevin Behrens wrote:
              > Hey,
              > I might dare aswell, that asans is the real word for summer. Asans also means harvest/Ernte etc. Can't it be that Wulfila used it for both terms, summer and harvest? He lived in southern Europe, where the difference between summer/winter and spring/fall isn't always so clear. Maybe he didn't really know how to use the word for summer. And maybe the words fr spring and fall didn't get it to the South since they didn't really had these seasons. For summer I would either say "sumars/summars" or "somars/sommars". I am not sure about the o and the double m. The word for fall and harvest could be tricky. It either is cognate with the Proto-Northern-Germanic and dropped the r and the b and turned into something like: "hausts" or it kept the sounds and is "harbists". What would you say?
            • gotenfreund
              That s interesting, Marja. I followed some of the other month-name links from the same article; they give a good idea of harvest time in the Balkan region:
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 27, 2012
                That's interesting, Marja.

                I followed some of the other month-name links from the same article; they give a good idea of harvest time in the Balkan region:

                Croatian: srpanj, "harvest", July

                Macedonian (Slav): zhetvar, "harvest", June

                Bulgarian: serpen/zhatvar, "harvest", July

                seems to be what we would call mid- to late summer.

                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, marja erwin <marja-e@...> wrote:
                >
                > Good point.
                >
                > I'm not sure about the agricultural calendar on the lower Danube, but
                > Ukrainian month-names hint at the agricultural calendar on the Dnipr:
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_months
                >
                > and it looks like the main harvest was/is in August:
                >
                > > 8 August Серпень Serpen' month of the sickle
                >
                > Of course, the name had changed, but the harvest and it's timing cannot
                > have changed between Gothic and early Slavic times.
                >
                > On Mon, 2012-02-27 at 12:28 +0100, Kevin Behrens wrote:
                > > Hey,
                > > I might dare aswell, that asans is the real word for summer. Asans also means harvest/Ernte etc. Can't it be that Wulfila used it for both terms, summer and harvest? He lived in southern Europe, where the difference between summer/winter and spring/fall isn't always so clear. Maybe he didn't really know how to use the word for summer. And maybe the words fr spring and fall didn't get it to the South since they didn't really had these seasons. For summer I would either say "sumars/summars" or "somars/sommars". I am not sure about the o and the double m. The word for fall and harvest could be tricky. It either is cognate with the Proto-Northern-Germanic and dropped the r and the b and turned into something like: "hausts" or it kept the sounds and is "harbists". What would you say?
                >
              • Frithureiks
                I would assume that Lent (lenten) would correspond to a gothic *laggateins where the latter part is the same as in sinteino and cognate to slavic den = day.
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 11, 2012
                  I would assume that Lent (lenten) would correspond to a gothic *laggateins where the latter part is the same as in sinteino and cognate to slavic den = day.

                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Hailai,
                  >
                  > Herewith, a few comments about suggestions for words not attested in
                  > Gothic, though probably not much in the way of material help.
                  >
                  > The season-word we can be the most confident about is "wintrus", occurring
                  > in John 10:22. "Asans" is attested for summer, but it translates Greek
                  > words that seem to have a sense of "harvest": theros and therismos. I do not
                  > know whether for the Greeks the harvest was regarded as part of summer; but
                  > if so, perhaps Wulfila would have chosen some other word if he had not been
                  > influenced by the language he was translating.
                  >
                  > As for the other seasons, I do not know whether there was much uniformity
                  > among the Germanic peoples in their names for spring and autumn, since it is
                  > said they divided the year into only two seasons, winter and summer. The
                  > German Lenz (cognate with English Lent) is said to derive from len(gi)zin,
                  > from *langat-tin, which had the meaning "having long days". Icelandic "vor"
                  > looks like Latin "ver", but whether they are related I do not know.
                  >
                  > The word German and English share for "autumn" is Herbst/harvest. How this
                  > is related to Icelandic "haust", if at all, I do not know.
                  >
                  > For a way of saying "too", in a sense that implies excess, perhaps
                  > "ufar"might be used. It occurs in "ufarfulls" = overfull, and looks like Icelandic
                  > of/ofur, which has the same sense. However, "ufar" by no means seems to
                  > have a general tendency to indicate excess: for example "ufargaggan" means to
                  > go over, to cross, rather than to go too far, and there are several other
                  > constructions that have "ufar" not implying that something has been done to
                  > excess.
                  >
                  > For a word meaning to oppose, resist, or the like, use could possibly be
                  > made of something meaning to fight or contend (e.g. haifstjan, weihan)
                  > followed by "withra" + accusative = against. In Codex A of Romans 9:13 a form of
                  > "andweihan" means "warring against". And in Luke 18:3 "andastathjis" is an
                  > adversary, from which we might conjecture a verb "and(a)standan (?)
                  >
                  > For a verb meaning to depart, "twisstandan" occurs in 2Cor 2:13 for "depart
                  > from".
                  >
                  > I am afraid the above contains more caveats and confessions of ignorance
                  > than assertions, but owing to the dearth of replies to the original questions
                  > I offer it for what it is worth.
                  >
                  > Making words up to fill the gaps in what we know of Gothic is an enterprise
                  > that deserves careful thought and diligent investigation; it would be easy
                  > to do it badly. I am therefore reluctant to roll my own Gothic. To
                  > postulate a Gothic word corresponding to something that is common Germanic (e.g. a
                  > word for "green") requires a knowledge of how sounds have changed in the
                  > various Germanic tongues, and in particular of how they changed in Gothic. I
                  > believe many reconstructions were done long ago by Jakob Grimm. For
                  > present help, if Llama_nom is still active he would be a valuable source of
                  > advice.
                  >
                  > Gerry T.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 25/02/2012 05:50:44 GMT Standard Time,
                  > anheropl0x@... writes:
                  >
                  > Also, German Abschied (parting or farewell). Pretty obvious it would come
                  > from something like the verb afskaidan, though the verb to bid farewell is
                  > andqithan, I believe.
                  >
                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I'm currently on my phone, so I can't access any of the neoglism files,
                  > but I was curious what you might think the translations of these two
                  > words/phrases are.
                  > >
                  > > Resistance (Widerstand)
                  > > Too many (zu viel)
                  > >
                  > > I found in one dictionary that has andstandan for to resist, but I'm not
                  > sure which suffix to use to make it a noun. I haven't looked at wiktionary
                  > yet, but I doubt it will have much (I often reconstruct from
                  > proto-germanic or go by analogy of another Germanic language). If I can think of any
                  > more words, I will add them.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
                  > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
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