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Introduction and King Wamba

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  • indiejones46
    Hi, I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself. My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially after reading a book on
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 12, 2012
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      Hi,

      I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.

      My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially after reading a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in archaeology (degree) and attend excavations in my spare time.

      I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and find this Forum useful. So thank you.

      I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been intriguing me since i read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of Wamba into a King. Is this the first king of the Visigothic race who was 'crowned' in this way? The description i read of the ceremonial rite seems exceedingly strange.

      Does anyone here have a view on this?

      I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course, if others wish to as well.

      Alex
    • Ingemar Nordgren
      There are several legends about Wamba and it is definitely not the usual way a Visigothic king was appointed. Some details even seem to be part of the
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 12, 2012
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        There are several legends about Wamba and it is definitely not the usual way a Visigothic king was appointed. Some details even seem to be part of the trubadour tradition from Provence which later continues in the stories of King Arthur like the hunt of the hind. Also in the Didriks saga the same story of the hunt is recognizeable and it has as well roots in the Bysantine tradition. I would pay no heed to that story.This was as well late in the Visigothic era and the kings now, since Reccared had claimed to be king of Gods grace, were Catholic and not Arian and the church had a strong position with the very conservative Catholic Councils in Toledo persecuting both Arians and Jews. A saintly king suited well into the picture.

        Welcome to the list. I as well hope we can discuss much history and not only language. It is a little peculiar that we discuss much more Gothic history on Germanic list than on Gothic where it indeed should be discussed.

        Best greetings
        Ingemar

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "indiejones46" <indiana.jones465@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.
        >
        > My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially after reading a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in archaeology (degree) and attend excavations in my spare time.
        >
        > I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and find this Forum useful. So thank you.
        >
        > I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been intriguing me since i read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of Wamba into a King. Is this the first king of the Visigothic race who was 'crowned' in this way? The description i read of the ceremonial rite seems exceedingly strange.
        >
        > Does anyone here have a view on this?
        >
        > I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course, if others wish to as well.
        >
        > Alex
        >
      • Andreas Schwarcz
        Wamba was indeed the first king of the Visigoths for whom the ceremony of unction is expressedly attested, but alreeady the canones of the IVth council of
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 12, 2012
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          Wamba was indeed the first king of the Visigoths for
          whom the ceremony of unction is expressedly
          attested, but alreeady the canones of the IVth
          council of Toledo in 633 imply that the kings were
          unctioned as part of their accession to the throne
          after the example of king David.

          All the best,
          Andreas

          "-"
          ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
          Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
          Universität Wien
          Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
          A 1010 Wien
          Austria
          Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16
          Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72
          andreas.schwarcz@...


          On 12 Feb 2012 at 12:29, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:

          >
          >
          > There are several legends about Wamba and it is definitely not the usual
          > way a Visigothic king was appointed. Some details even seem to be part
          > of the trubadour tradition from Provence which later continues in the
          > stories of King Arthur like the hunt of the hind. Also in the Didriks
          > saga the same story of the hunt is recognizeable and it has as well
          > roots in the Bysantine tradition. I would pay no heed to that story.This
          > was as well late in the Visigothic era and the kings now, since Reccared
          > had claimed to be king of Gods grace, were Catholic and not Arian and
          > the church had a strong position with the very conservative Catholic
          > Councils in Toledo persecuting both Arians and Jews. A saintly king
          > suited well into the picture.
          >
          > Welcome to the list. I as well hope we can discuss much history and not
          > only language. It is a little peculiar that we discuss much more Gothic
          > history on Germanic list than on Gothic where it indeed should be
          > discussed.
          >
          > Best greetings
          > Ingemar
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "indiejones46" <indiana.jones465@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi,
          > >
          > > I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.
          > >
          > > My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially
          > after reading a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in
          > archaeology (degree) and attend excavations in my spare time.
          > >
          > > I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and find
          > this Forum useful. So thank you.
          > >
          > > I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been intriguing me
          > since i read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of Wamba
          > into a King. Is this the first king of the Visigothic race who was
          > 'crowned' in this way? The description i read of the ceremonial rite
          > seems exceedingly strange.
          > >
          > > Does anyone here have a view on this?
          > >
          > > I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course, if
          > others wish to as well.
          > >
          > > Alex
          > >
          >
          >
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ingemar Nordgren
          Hi Andreas! I did not grasp the meaning of unction but now I have checked. I should have done it before of course. Still it is evidently a ceremonie that was
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 12, 2012
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            Hi Andreas!

            I did not grasp the meaning of unction but now I have checked. I should have done it before of course. Still it is evidently a ceremonie that was not in use in Arian times as far as I grasp.

            Best wishes
            Ingemar

            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Schwarcz" <andreas.schwarcz@...> wrote:
            >
            > Wamba was indeed the first king of the Visigoths for
            > whom the ceremony of unction is expressedly
            > attested, but alreeady the canones of the IVth
            > council of Toledo in 633 imply that the kings were
            > unctioned as part of their accession to the throne
            > after the example of king David.
            >
            > All the best,
            > Andreas
            >
            > "-"
            > ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
            > Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
            > Universität Wien
            > Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
            > A 1010 Wien
            > Austria
            > Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16
            > Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72
            > andreas.schwarcz@...
            >
            >
            > On 12 Feb 2012 at 12:29, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > There are several legends about Wamba and it is definitely not the usual
            > > way a Visigothic king was appointed. Some details even seem to be part
            > > of the trubadour tradition from Provence which later continues in the
            > > stories of King Arthur like the hunt of the hind. Also in the Didriks
            > > saga the same story of the hunt is recognizeable and it has as well
            > > roots in the Bysantine tradition. I would pay no heed to that story.This
            > > was as well late in the Visigothic era and the kings now, since Reccared
            > > had claimed to be king of Gods grace, were Catholic and not Arian and
            > > the church had a strong position with the very conservative Catholic
            > > Councils in Toledo persecuting both Arians and Jews. A saintly king
            > > suited well into the picture.
            > >
            > > Welcome to the list. I as well hope we can discuss much history and not
            > > only language. It is a little peculiar that we discuss much more Gothic
            > > history on Germanic list than on Gothic where it indeed should be
            > > discussed.
            > >
            > > Best greetings
            > > Ingemar
            > >
            > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "indiejones46" <indiana.jones465@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi,
            > > >
            > > > I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.
            > > >
            > > > My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially
            > > after reading a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in
            > > archaeology (degree) and attend excavations in my spare time.
            > > >
            > > > I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and find
            > > this Forum useful. So thank you.
            > > >
            > > > I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been intriguing me
            > > since i read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of Wamba
            > > into a King. Is this the first king of the Visigothic race who was
            > > 'crowned' in this way? The description i read of the ceremonial rite
            > > seems exceedingly strange.
            > > >
            > > > Does anyone here have a view on this?
            > > >
            > > > I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course, if
            > > others wish to as well.
            > > >
            > > > Alex
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Andreas Schwarcz
            Dear Ingemar, No,it was not in use before the Visigoths became catholics, and some suppose that it was introduced by Chindasvinth. But José Orlandis already
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 12, 2012
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              Dear Ingemar,
              No,it was not in use before the Visigoths became
              catholics, and some suppose that it was introduced
              by Chindasvinth. But José Orlandis already refers to
              a citation of unctioned bishops and kings in
              Isidore's De rebus ecclesiasticis before 631 C.E.
              and thought it probable that already Liuva II, the
              son of Reccared, was unctioned.

              All the best,
              Andreas



              "-"
              ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
              Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
              Universität Wien
              Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
              A 1010 Wien
              Austria
              Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16
              Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72
              andreas.schwarcz@...


              On 12 Feb 2012 at 17:59, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:

              >
              >
              > Hi Andreas!
              >
              > I did not grasp the meaning of unction but now I have checked. I should
              > have done it before of course. Still it is evidently a ceremonie that
              > was not in use in Arian times as far as I grasp.
              >
              > Best wishes
              > Ingemar
              >
              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Schwarcz"
              > <andreas.schwarcz@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Wamba was indeed the first king of the Visigoths for
              > > whom the ceremony of unction is expressedly
              > > attested, but alreeady the canones of the IVth
              > > council of Toledo in 633 imply that the kings were
              > > unctioned as part of their accession to the throne
              > > after the example of king David.
              > >
              > > All the best,
              > > Andreas
              > >
              > > "-"
              > > ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
              > > Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
              > > Universität Wien
              > > Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
              > > A 1010 Wien
              > > Austria
              > > Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16
              > > Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72
              > > andreas.schwarcz@...
              > >
              > >
              > > On 12 Feb 2012 at 12:29, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:
              > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > There are several legends about Wamba and it is definitely not the
              > usual
              > > > way a Visigothic king was appointed. Some details even seem to be
              > part
              > > > of the trubadour tradition from Provence which later continues in
              > the
              > > > stories of King Arthur like the hunt of the hind. Also in the
              > Didriks
              > > > saga the same story of the hunt is recognizeable and it has as well
              > > > roots in the Bysantine tradition. I would pay no heed to that
              > story.This
              > > > was as well late in the Visigothic era and the kings now, since
              > Reccared
              > > > had claimed to be king of Gods grace, were Catholic and not Arian
              > and
              > > > the church had a strong position with the very conservative Catholic
              > > > Councils in Toledo persecuting both Arians and Jews. A saintly king
              > > > suited well into the picture.
              > > >
              > > > Welcome to the list. I as well hope we can discuss much history and
              > not
              > > > only language. It is a little peculiar that we discuss much more
              > Gothic
              > > > history on Germanic list than on Gothic where it indeed should be
              > > > discussed.
              > > >
              > > > Best greetings
              > > > Ingemar
              > > >
              > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "indiejones46" <indiana.jones465@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi,
              > > > >
              > > > > I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.
              > > > >
              > > > > My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially
              > > > after reading a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in
              > > > archaeology (degree) and attend excavations in my spare time.
              > > > >
              > > > > I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and
              > find
              > > > this Forum useful. So thank you.
              > > > >
              > > > > I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been
              > intriguing me
              > > > since i read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of
              > Wamba
              > > > into a King. Is this the first king of the Visigothic race who was
              > > > 'crowned' in this way? The description i read of the ceremonial rite
              > > > seems exceedingly strange.
              > > > >
              > > > > Does anyone here have a view on this?
              > > > >
              > > > > I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course,
              > if
              > > > others wish to as well.
              > > > >
              > > > > Alex
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ingemar Nordgren
              Thank you Andreas! You are a steady rock to lean towards when troublesome questions appear! All the best Ingemar
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 12, 2012
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                Thank you Andreas!

                You are a steady rock to lean towards when troublesome questions appear!

                All the best
                Ingemar

                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Schwarcz" <andreas.schwarcz@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Ingemar,
                > No,it was not in use before the Visigoths became
                > catholics, and some suppose that it was introduced
                > by Chindasvinth. But José Orlandis already refers to
                > a citation of unctioned bishops and kings in
                > Isidore's De rebus ecclesiasticis before 631 C.E.
                > and thought it probable that already Liuva II, the
                > son of Reccared, was unctioned.
                >
                > All the best,
                > Andreas
                >
                >
                >
                > "-"
                > ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
                > Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
                > Universität Wien
                > Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
                > A 1010 Wien
                > Austria
                > Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16
                > Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72
                > andreas.schwarcz@...
                >
                >
                > On 12 Feb 2012 at 17:59, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi Andreas!
                > >
                > > I did not grasp the meaning of unction but now I have checked. I should
                > > have done it before of course. Still it is evidently a ceremonie that
                > > was not in use in Arian times as far as I grasp.
                > >
                > > Best wishes
                > > Ingemar
                > >
                > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Schwarcz"
                > > <andreas.schwarcz@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Wamba was indeed the first king of the Visigoths for
                > > > whom the ceremony of unction is expressedly
                > > > attested, but alreeady the canones of the IVth
                > > > council of Toledo in 633 imply that the kings were
                > > > unctioned as part of their accession to the throne
                > > > after the example of king David.
                > > >
                > > > All the best,
                > > > Andreas
                > > >
                > > > "-"
                > > > ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
                > > > Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
                > > > Universität Wien
                > > > Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
                > > > A 1010 Wien
                > > > Austria
                > > > Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16
                > > > Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72
                > > > andreas.schwarcz@
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On 12 Feb 2012 at 12:29, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:
                > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > There are several legends about Wamba and it is definitely not the
                > > usual
                > > > > way a Visigothic king was appointed. Some details even seem to be
                > > part
                > > > > of the trubadour tradition from Provence which later continues in
                > > the
                > > > > stories of King Arthur like the hunt of the hind. Also in the
                > > Didriks
                > > > > saga the same story of the hunt is recognizeable and it has as well
                > > > > roots in the Bysantine tradition. I would pay no heed to that
                > > story.This
                > > > > was as well late in the Visigothic era and the kings now, since
                > > Reccared
                > > > > had claimed to be king of Gods grace, were Catholic and not Arian
                > > and
                > > > > the church had a strong position with the very conservative Catholic
                > > > > Councils in Toledo persecuting both Arians and Jews. A saintly king
                > > > > suited well into the picture.
                > > > >
                > > > > Welcome to the list. I as well hope we can discuss much history and
                > > not
                > > > > only language. It is a little peculiar that we discuss much more
                > > Gothic
                > > > > history on Germanic list than on Gothic where it indeed should be
                > > > > discussed.
                > > > >
                > > > > Best greetings
                > > > > Ingemar
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "indiejones46" <indiana.jones465@>
                > > > > wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hi,
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially
                > > > > after reading a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in
                > > > > archaeology (degree) and attend excavations in my spare time.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and
                > > find
                > > > > this Forum useful. So thank you.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been
                > > intriguing me
                > > > > since i read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of
                > > Wamba
                > > > > into a King. Is this the first king of the Visigothic race who was
                > > > > 'crowned' in this way? The description i read of the ceremonial rite
                > > > > seems exceedingly strange.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Does anyone here have a view on this?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course,
                > > if
                > > > > others wish to as well.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Alex
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Indiana Jones
                Hi Thank you so much for the replies. I hope my question was not too troublesome. I do, however, have a reason for asking it. May i continue, even though it
                Message 7 of 7 , Feb 13, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi

                  Thank you so much for the replies. I hope my question was not too
                  troublesome.

                  I do, however, have a reason for asking it.

                  May i continue, even though it might seem bizarre?


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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