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Re: Hundreds of visigothic slate stones (whiteboards) in Western Castilla (Spain).

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  • ertydfh110
    Hi O.cossue, Simply spectacular the link you gave. I´ve read everything and it was fascinating. Whenever you have more interesting links like this please let
    Message 1 of 33 , Oct 23, 2011
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      Hi O.cossue,

      Simply spectacular the link you gave. I´ve read everything and it was fascinating. Whenever you have more interesting links like this please let me know.

      I´ve read about Galicia etymology and it is incredible the quantity of germanic places names there. I´ve read somewhere in www.celtiberia.net that is one of the places with higher amount of germanic places names in Europe (without considering direct germanic countries). It is well-known the celtic connection of Galicia and Asturias but I think the germanic one is even greater.

      I didn´t know about Franco use of the Goths. I just knew about how he made the children to learn the Visigothic Kings List. But nothing else.

      In any case it is ridiculous how the germanic influence in Spain is not promoted and studied more. It is even ridiculous how scholars named the visigothic art just as "arte mozarabe". I´ve found many people thinking that mozarabe was just arabic.

      There are many complexes about the history of Spain.

      So if you have more interesting links about it, please share them.

      Cheers!.

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "o_cossue" <o.cossue@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi, friend. No, I'm no scholar, but a learned reader and a hobbyist. My main interest are the Suevi (after all, I'm Galician), and the Romance-Germanic toponymy in Galicia (mostly personal names expressed as genitives, at places such as Mondariz, Guitiriz, Gondomar < Gundemarii, Vila Santar, Allariz, Forcarei < Fulkaredi, Gomesende, Baltar, Sandiás < Sindilanis and the like). Of course, the Germanic, Suevi, and most notably Visigothic, patrimony is probably underrated, if compared with other contribution to Iberia's cultures. Francoism, and in general nationalism, is probably guilty on this, for having used and abused the Goths and the Suevi for their ideology.
      >
      > On researchers going into new evidences... Well, I really appreciate the works by Aragonese scholar Javier Arce (briefly, ISBN 84-206-2347-4, ISBN 9788496467576, and the brand new "Esperando a los árabes. Los visigodos en Hispania", which I haven't had the opportunity to read, yet). He has been extracting all the juice of letters, fragments, and snippets not previously really taken into consideration... Is not that you must agree with everything he deduces (he sometimes make silly mistakes in marginal assertions) but he is really chopping the material into new views. Anyway, the subjects of his research are not the Goths, per se, but their era.
      >
      > On the names of the bishops, in the Suevic kingdom of Galicia 5 of 12 Catholic bishops were Suevi in 570, 6 Roman (one a Pannonian) and 1 Briton. The Visigothic kingdom shows the same tendency after the conversion under king Reccared; according to Thompson (The Goths in Spain, XII.2), the percentile of Germanic/Total bishops assisting to the councils of Toledo were:
      > Tarraconense 30,25%
      > Cartaginense 30,75%
      > Lusitania 43,75%
      > Betica 27,25%
      > Galicia 41%
      > Galia 28,5%
      >
      > Last but not least, a link to an academic work you may find REALLY interesting, on Visigothic necropolis in Castille. It's a little old, but fascinating: http://tdx.cat/handle/10803/2607
      >
      > Cheers,
      > O'Cossue.
    • ertydfh110
      I also forgot to coment about: And of course there were native semi-pastoral societies other than the Goths during that time that may also have moved around.
      Message 33 of 33 , Nov 7, 2011
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        I also forgot to coment about: "And of course there were native
        semi-pastoral societies other than the Goths during that time that may also have moved around."

        Those native socities are also well-documented. There are thousands of studies that talk about the pre-roman populations in Spain: celtic tribes, iberian tribes, phoenician tribes, and so. That is why it is easier to identify the similarities and the differences with the visigoths or other tribes.

        Regards.


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ertydfh110" <ertydfh110@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > I just would like to suggest that you should read a little bit more of History of Spain (it is just a suggestion, no offense!).
        >
        > The main area of the visigothic settlements (the main area where most of the visigothic population ended living) was the Campos Góticos or Tierra de Campos, which is in Castilla Leon (you can see the google map I sent in the first post in this thread which is somehow showing were most of them settled):
        > http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/visigodos2.jpg/
        >
        > There are many remains in that area. In fact, that area is where MOST visigothic remains are located. Also that area where MOST visigothic necropolis are located. So that explains that this is the area were they finally settled (and not the north and east as you say). Even Toledo which was the capital of the Visigothic kingdom is pretty close to Avila and Salamanca.
        >
        > In this map you can see that Salamanca (which is close to Avila and Toledo) have many well-studied visigothic remains:
        > http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/visigodossalamanca.jpg
        >
        > It is something well studied by many scholars. The slate stones are visigothic because they were found in visigothic settlements (with other visigothic remains and also with visigothic necropolis) and because most of the names inscribed on the slate stones were germanic. What maybe makes you think that it could be a different local tribe is that the language used on the slate stones was latin. The visigoths were already romanized when they got to Spain. That is why they used vulgar latin in the slate stones. This is well documented and studied (you have some info on this thread about some of the studies).
        >
        > As for ancestry. The displacements during the Muslim era are very well studied also. Just take into consideration that the muslims were basically an army and they represented less than the 5% of the population of that era. Most of the muslims were hispanorromans and visigoths converted to islam to avoid paying taxes (yizia)to the muslim "elite". Read for example this:
        > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulad%C3%AD
        > "As the most humble, most opted for conversion outside religious considerations, were exempted from paying the land tax levied on personal and non-believers"
        >
        > Not all Spain had muslims, not all areas of Spain had muslims living there. Many rural areas remained the same as before the muslim invasion. The muslims went to the main places of power, the main cities or the most strategic cities, but many rural areas didn´t have any single muslim.
        > The impact of the muslims is quite similar to that of the Romans. A ruling elite with an army and a ruling administration. But not much of population. The difference is that the muslims were always seen as an invading force and the enemies. That is the reason for the 800 years war, and the final expulsion of them in 1492 and also in 1609.
        >
        > Regards.
        >
        >
        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "r_scherp" <r_scherp@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hails!
        > >
        > > This was a very interesting thread and I wish to thank all who participated.
        > >
        > > I would like to caution confusing the Visigothic tribe with their empire in Spain and beyond.
        > >
        > > First off I am under the impression that the chief Gothic area was to the north and east and not so much Salamanca and Avila. It would seem that the slate stones may not be Visigothic in the narrow sense, but evidence of a contemporary rural Roman or Romanized population.
        > >
        > > As for ancestry, I think we may justly suppose strong shifts and displacements during the Muslim era in the rural areas, beginning with the immigration of numerous Berber tribes, several of which certainly remained after the great Berber revolutions during the 8th century. And of course there were native semi-pastoral societies other than the Goths during that time that may also have moved around.
        > >
        > > Freis jah tulgus!
        > >
        > > Randulfs
        > >
        > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ertydfh110" <ertydfh110@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hello to all,
        > > >
        > > > I´m from Salamanca in Spain. Although not enough studied, it is one of the places that probably has more visigothic remains in all Spain.
        > > >
        > > > I first show you a map where most visigoths established in Spain:
        > > > http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/visigodos2.jpg/
        > > >
        > > > Then I show a map of the province of Salamanca where you can see many visigothic remains (villages, necropolis, coinds, stones) in this province:
        > > > http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/visigodossalamanca.jpg/
        > > >
        > > > That is as an introduction. What got me in this list, is that 3 kms away from the village where all my ancestors come, there are ruins of an old village which is supposed to be celtic and/or visigoth.
        > > >
        > > > This is a picture of it:
        > > >
        > > > The issue about this place is that in this place there have been found several hundred of visigothic slate stones. Most of them have numbers written in them and are supposed to be about accounting (buy or sell of animals for example). But some of them have something non-numeric written in them.
        > > >
        > > > For example this one:
        > > > http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/piedravisigoda.jpg/
        > > >
        > > > Could you please take a look and see if there is something written in Gothic?.
        > > >
        > > > I also send you a picture taken by me in a close museum with some of the stones:
        > > > http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/visigothicwhiteboard.jpg/
        > > >
        > > > Thanks.
        > > >
        > >
        >
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