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Re: Auhjodjus Þahainais

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  • anheropl0x
    I went back over the first part about so siuns and decided to leave it as is. Because without the word order it should be The vision was planted... It s
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 31, 2010
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      I went back over the first part about "so siuns" and decided to leave it as is. Because without the word order it should be "The vision was planted..." It's passive and puts vision in the nominative, and there is no cj. "that," so I don't see much need now. But it's still open to debate if someone can come up with more reason to change it.

      Disskraiþ should be disskrait. I had been using the Verbix site and for whatever reason it's giving sv. I verbs whose roots end in -t an þ.

      As for waurd in plural also having meaning of prophetic words, I distinctly remember finding, but now I can't find it anywhere. I'm rather disappointed in this. but the line, being such a mouthful anyway, I might remove the mention of the prophet from the English "translation," but that doesn't exactly do the song justice, does it?

      I think I'll wait for someone else to come up with information on "galeiko," as the dictionary I use says: "(like, so, similar to) swe; (alike, similar to) ga-leiks +dat.; (akin) sama-kuns (i-stem); "of like mind" sama-frathjis, sama-saiwals, ga-qiss; "be of like mind" thata samo frathjan/hugjan; (in like manner, likewise, similarly) ga-leiko, ana-leiko, sama-leiko, thammuh samin haidau; (just like, just as, even as) swa-swe; "as...so" swe...swa; "like...so too" swe...jah, swe...swa jah, swe...swah."

      So you are right about galeiks governing the dative, but it says nothing for galeiko, which in Wright's book mentions that galeiko is an "ablative of adjective[s] was often used adverbially." Then lists words: andaugjo, analeiko, galeiko, glaggwo, sinteino, sniumundo, sprauto, þiubjo, þridjo, etc. Then in the dictionary part I used, there's many instances of swa/swe, and it starts to get really confusing on what the differences are most of the time.

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@... wrote:
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      >
      >
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      > Hailai allai, þishun Johann.
      >
      > Well, Johann, if I have been helpful to you about translation of The Sound of Silence, then you have been helpful to me, and given plenty to check up on and ponder. One or two things arise:
      >
      > You want to render "stabbed" by a form of "stikan", which I had not realised existed. It is listed in Koebler, and if I correctly understand his rather cryptic presentation, it seems to be a reconstructed strong verb of class 5. So I think you are right that its past participle in the neuter plural would be "stikana".
      >
      > As for "disskreitan" for splitting, would the preterite not be "disskrait" rather than "disskraiþ? According to Lehmann the verb is known only from Mark 14:63, where it occurs as a present participle; so if there was expected to be any anomaly in the preterite we presumably have to look at other verbs that belong to the same class and end in the same consonant; and at least four verbs fit the bill: "beitan", "andbeitan", "gasmeitan", and "inweitan". The preterite of "inweitan" occurs several times as "inwait", e.g. Matt. 8:2
      >
      > jah sai, manna þrutsfill habands durinnands inwait ina...
      >
      > The preterite of "gasmeitan" occurs in John 9:6
      >
      > ...jah gasmait imma ana augona þata fani þamma blindin
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      > The preterite of "andbeitan" occurs several times as "andbait" e.g. Mark 1:25
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      > jah andbait ina Iesus qiþands...
      >
      > As for ways of saying "like" in Gothic: "galeiks" in its various inflected forms seems to be fine for expressing an adjectival "like", e.g. you are like (= similar to) your brother. An example is Galatians 5:21
      >
      > neiþa, maurþra, drugkaneins, gabauros jah þata galeiko þaim...
      >
      > This looks as if literally it is something along the lines of
      >
      > [various vices] and that [which is] like those,
      >
      > and is presumably in weak declension because of its being preceded by the Gothic demonstrative or definite article.
      > The difficulty is with adverbial "like" (= similarly to). English is often potentially or actually ambiguous with this usage, and so it would not be surprising if other languages, especially highly inflected ones, favoured a conjunction.
      >
      > So what about "galeiko" for adverbial "like" (my words like silent raindrops fell)? I had supposed that this was a Johannes innovation. However, Philippians 2:6 is said to have such a usage:
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      > saei in gudaskaunein wisands ni wulwa rahnida wisan sik galeiko guda,
      >
      > who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
      >
      > Unfortunately I find the Gothic obscure, and on turning to the original Greek, that obscure also, though interestingly it appears to have an adjectival (neuter plural) "like". Help from others better able to understand the original and its Wulfilian rendition would be welcome.
      >
      > On to verse 5. I had questioned "wreitan" as a rendition of the verb "write", but on checking I see that it is listed in Koebler as a reconstructed strong verb of class 1.
      >
      > My last quibble was about the omission of an explicit reference to any prophet. Whether "waurd" in Gothic has any tendency to mean specifically a prophetic utterance I have not been able to ascertain. But in a context where writing is on a wall, it might be a reasonable liberty to assume it anyway.
      >
      >
      >
      > Gerry T.
    • Grsartor@aol.com
      Hailai A question that arose out of Johann s translation of The Sound of Silence was how to express like in Gothic. What I give here will not help him to
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 3, 2011
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        Hailai

        A question that arose out of Johann's translation of The Sound of Silence
        was how to express "like" in Gothic. What I give here will not help him to
        decide how, if at all, to amend his translation, but may none the less be of
        interest.

        Adverbial use of "galeiko" seems to be alleged only in Philippians 2:6. The
        relevant words and the corresponding Greek are these:

        ...saei in gudaskaunein wisands ni wulwa rahnida wisan sik galeiko guda

        ...hos en morphe theou hyparchwn oukh harpagmon hegesato to einai isa thew

        I was puzzled by the last word but one of the Greek. Formally it is the
        neuter plural of the adjective "isos", meaning "the same". Happily, I have
        just found in an analytical lexicon of NT Greek that in this line the use of
        "isa" was adverbial, and meant "on an equality". So did Wulfila make a
        somewhat literal translation here of a Greek idiom? This would possibly not be a
        great surprise since in other ways he seems to follow his original very
        closely. Consider, e.g., the Greek idiom "to have badly" meaning to be ill.
        Wulfila several times renders this as "ubil haban", and once even more
        literally as "ubilaba haban" (Mark 2:17). I wonder what effect such alien idiom
        would have had on the Goths: could such strange expressions have given the
        NT an aura of mystery?

        All this will not, admittedly, help with how to express "like" in Gothic,
        which is the question that started my inquiries, and indeed it possibly
        muddies the waters. But at least I feel it makes a line of Wulfia's Gothic less
        puzzling, since otherwise I should have expected the last word but one to
        be "galeikana".

        Gerry T.


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