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Re: [gothic-l] I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...

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  • OSCAR HERRE
    isnt duthe the word for since......pretty sure it is.... ... From: Grsartor@aol.com Subject: Re: [gothic-l] I haven t seen you since we
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 19, 2010
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      isnt duthe the word for since......pretty sure it is....

      --- On Sun, 9/19/10, Grsartor@... <Grsartor@...> wrote:


      From: Grsartor@... <Grsartor@...>
      Subject: Re: [gothic-l] I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...
      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 2:33 PM


       



      Hi, All.

      About how to say "since" in Gothic: as no-one else has replied, I offer a few remarks in the hope that others with greater knowledge may be prompted to answer, if only to put right whatever mistakes I make.

      What we really ought to do is see whether the available texts give us any examples of how Gothic coped. I do not know whether such exist, and in this state of unblissful ignorance offer the following.

      First, we have to distinguish between different uses of the word in question:

      (1) as an adverb, eg "he had breakfast but has not eaten since".

      (2) as a preposition, eg. "he has eaten nothing since breakfast".

      (3) as a conjunction, eg "he has eaten nothing since he had breakfast".

      There is also the question of what tense we should use. In a previous message I said that it seems Gothic regularly used the preterite where English uses a perfect, even when this perfect indicates a persisting state, and might well be expressed by a present in other tongues than English (eg, he has been here for three hours). If this is right, then it might be reasonable to express "since" by "after". My second and third example sentences could then become:

      (2) waiht ni matida afar undaurnimat.

      (3) waiht ni matida afar þatei matida undaurnimat. A similar construction is actually attested in Gothic: Afar þatei atgibans was Iohannes (Mark 1:14)

      As for the adverbial use of "since", or "after", it might be reasonable to render the first sentence as:

      (1) matida undaurnimat iþ waiht ni matida afar þata. This construction is at any rate paralleled in the surviving Gothic: Afar þata galaiþ Iesus (John 6:1)

      A shortcoming of this way of coping with how to express "since" is that there would be no distinction between the following:

      (A) He did not smoke a cigar after breakfast.

      (B) He has not smoked a cigar since breakfast.

      In favour of the suggested use of "fram" for expressing "since" there is the Gothic idiom "fram himma nu", which was used to mean "from now on".

      I hope these remarks, if not specially useful, may spur others into offering their help.

      Gerry T.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Claire Knudsen-Latta <clairemargery@...>
      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:39
      Subject: [gothic-l] I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...

      Ik ni gesahw þuk fram donaujai.

      I'm having trouble with the last bit of the translation, would _fram_ be the
      correct preposition? And, do I need to include the "we crossed" bit or
      could that be implied?

      Thanks,
      Claire

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Grsartor@aol.com
      Hi, All. About the meaning of duþe, and its possible use as a translation of since . The word seems to mean for this or that reason , therefore . Examples:
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 20, 2010
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        Hi, All. About the meaning of duþe, and its possible use as a translation of "since".

        The word seems to mean "for this or that reason", "therefore". Examples:

        Matt 6:25 duþþe qiþa izwis: ni maurnaiþ saiwalai izwarai
        therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life

        Mark 1:38 unte duþe qam.
        for that is why I came out

        Luke 14:20 duþe ni mag qiman
        therefore I cannot come

        Matt 27:8 duþþe haitans warþ akrs jains akrs bloþis und hina dag
        therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day

        (Note the Gothic use of the preterite where the English translation uses a perfect with present sense.)

        The combination duþe ei has the meaning "since", but so far as I have been able to make out only in its sense of "because" rather than "after". Examples:

        Luke 1:13 duþe ei andhausida ist bida þeina
        for your prayer is heard

        Luke 1:20 duþe ei ni galaubides waurdam meinaim
        because you did not believe my words

        Of course, it is only a small step from "after" to "because" (post hoc ergo propter hoc), but I can produce no examples from Gothic to justify duþe in the sense of since = after.

        Gerry T.








        -----Original Message-----
        From: OSCAR HERRE <duke.co@...>
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 4:19
        Subject: Re: [gothic-l] I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...


        isnt duthe the word for since......pretty sure it is....

        --- On Sun, 9/19/10, Grsartor@... <Grsartor@...> wrote:


        From: Grsartor@... <Grsartor@...>
        Subject: Re: [gothic-l] I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 2:33 PM






        Hi, All.

        About how to say "since" in Gothic: as no-one else has replied, I offer a few
        remarks in the hope that others with greater knowledge may be prompted to
        answer, if only to put right whatever mistakes I make.

        What we really ought to do is see whether the available texts give us any
        examples of how Gothic coped. I do not know whether such exist, and in this
        state of unblissful ignorance offer the following.

        First, we have to distinguish between different uses of the word in question:

        (1) as an adverb, eg "he had breakfast but has not eaten since".

        (2) as a preposition, eg. "he has eaten nothing since breakfast".

        (3) as a conjunction, eg "he has eaten nothing since he had breakfast".

        There is also the question of what tense we should use. In a previous message I
        said that it seems Gothic regularly used the preterite where English uses a
        perfect, even when this perfect indicates a persisting state, and might well be
        expressed by a present in other tongues than English (eg, he has been here for
        three hours). If this is right, then it might be reasonable to express "since"
        by "after". My second and third example sentences could then become:

        (2) waiht ni matida afar undaurnimat.

        (3) waiht ni matida afar þatei matida undaurnimat. A similar construction is
        actually attested in Gothic: Afar þatei atgibans was Iohannes (Mark 1:14)

        As for the adverbial use of "since", or "after", it might be reasonable to
        render the first sentence as:

        (1) matida undaurnimat iþ waiht ni matida afar þata. This construction is at any
        rate paralleled in the surviving Gothic: Afar þata galaiþ Iesus (John 6:1)

        A shortcoming of this way of coping with how to express "since" is that there
        would be no distinction between the following:

        (A) He did not smoke a cigar after breakfast.

        (B) He has not smoked a cigar since breakfast.

        In favour of the suggested use of "fram" for expressing "since" there is the
        Gothic idiom "fram himma nu", which was used to mean "from now on".

        I hope these remarks, if not specially useful, may spur others into offering
        their help.

        Gerry T.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Claire Knudsen-Latta <clairemargery@...>
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:39
        Subject: [gothic-l] I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...

        Ik ni gesahw þuk fram donaujai.

        I'm having trouble with the last bit of the translation, would _fram_ be the
        correct preposition? And, do I need to include the "we crossed" bit or
        could that be implied?

        Thanks,
        Claire

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
        <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
        <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ○
        Hi! I would too use fram for since. Ik gasahw þuk ni fram (þamma daga) weis ufarliþum Donawi.
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 24, 2010
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          Hi!

          I would too use 'fram' for since.

          Ik gasahw þuk ni fram (þamma daga) weis ufarliþum Donawi.

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@... wrote:
          >
          > Hi, All. About the meaning of duþe, and its possible use as a translation of "since".
          >
          > The word seems to mean "for this or that reason", "therefore". Examples:
          >
          > Matt 6:25 duþþe qiþa izwis: ni maurnaiþ saiwalai izwarai
          > therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life
          >
          > Mark 1:38 unte duþe qam.
          > for that is why I came out
          >
          > Luke 14:20 duþe ni mag qiman
          > therefore I cannot come
          >
          > Matt 27:8 duþþe haitans warþ akrs jains akrs bloþis und hina dag
          > therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day
          >
          > (Note the Gothic use of the preterite where the English translation uses a perfect with present sense.)
          >
          > The combination duþe ei has the meaning "since", but so far as I have been able to make out only in its sense of "because" rather than "after". Examples:
          >
          > Luke 1:13 duþe ei andhausida ist bida þeina
          > for your prayer is heard
          >
          > Luke 1:20 duþe ei ni galaubides waurdam meinaim
          > because you did not believe my words
          >
          > Of course, it is only a small step from "after" to "because" (post hoc ergo propter hoc), but I can produce no examples from Gothic to justify duþe in the sense of since = after.
          >
          > Gerry T.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: OSCAR HERRE <duke.co@...>
          > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 4:19
          > Subject: Re: [gothic-l] I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...
          >
          >
          > isnt duthe the word for since......pretty sure it is....
          >
          > --- On Sun, 9/19/10, Grsartor@... <Grsartor@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Grsartor@... <Grsartor@...>
          > Subject: Re: [gothic-l] I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...
          > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 2:33 PM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi, All.
          >
          > About how to say "since" in Gothic: as no-one else has replied, I offer a few
          > remarks in the hope that others with greater knowledge may be prompted to
          > answer, if only to put right whatever mistakes I make.
          >
          > What we really ought to do is see whether the available texts give us any
          > examples of how Gothic coped. I do not know whether such exist, and in this
          > state of unblissful ignorance offer the following.
          >
          > First, we have to distinguish between different uses of the word in question:
          >
          > (1) as an adverb, eg "he had breakfast but has not eaten since".
          >
          > (2) as a preposition, eg. "he has eaten nothing since breakfast".
          >
          > (3) as a conjunction, eg "he has eaten nothing since he had breakfast".
          >
          > There is also the question of what tense we should use. In a previous message I
          > said that it seems Gothic regularly used the preterite where English uses a
          > perfect, even when this perfect indicates a persisting state, and might well be
          > expressed by a present in other tongues than English (eg, he has been here for
          > three hours). If this is right, then it might be reasonable to express "since"
          > by "after". My second and third example sentences could then become:
          >
          > (2) waiht ni matida afar undaurnimat.
          >
          > (3) waiht ni matida afar þatei matida undaurnimat. A similar construction is
          > actually attested in Gothic: Afar þatei atgibans was Iohannes (Mark 1:14)
          >
          > As for the adverbial use of "since", or "after", it might be reasonable to
          > render the first sentence as:
          >
          > (1) matida undaurnimat iþ waiht ni matida afar þata. This construction is at any
          > rate paralleled in the surviving Gothic: Afar þata galaiþ Iesus (John 6:1)
          >
          > A shortcoming of this way of coping with how to express "since" is that there
          > would be no distinction between the following:
          >
          > (A) He did not smoke a cigar after breakfast.
          >
          > (B) He has not smoked a cigar since breakfast.
          >
          > In favour of the suggested use of "fram" for expressing "since" there is the
          > Gothic idiom "fram himma nu", which was used to mean "from now on".
          >
          > I hope these remarks, if not specially useful, may spur others into offering
          > their help.
          >
          > Gerry T.
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Claire Knudsen-Latta <clairemargery@...>
          > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:39
          > Subject: [gothic-l] I haven't seen you since we crossed the Danube...
          >
          > Ik ni gesahw þuk fram donaujai.
          >
          > I'm having trouble with the last bit of the translation, would _fram_ be the
          > correct preposition? And, do I need to include the "we crossed" bit or
          > could that be implied?
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Claire
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
          > <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
          > <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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