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Re: [gothic-l] Unknown Word(s)

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  • Claire Knudsen-Latta
    From: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=dream&searchmode=none DREAM mid-13c. in the sense sequence of sensations passing through a sleeping person s
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 22, 2010
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      From: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=dream&searchmode=none
      DREAM
      mid-13c. in the sense "sequence of sensations passing through a sleeping
      person's mind" (also as a verb), probably related to O.N. *draumr*, Dan. *
      dr�m*, Swed. *drom*, O.S. *drom*, Du. *droom*, O.H.G. *troum*, Ger.
      *traum*"dream," perhaps from W.Gmc.
      **draugmas* "deception, illusion, phantasm" (cf. O.S. *bidriogan*, O.H.G. *
      triogan*, Ger. *tr�gen* "to deceive, delude," O.N. *draugr* "ghost,
      apparition"). Possible cognates outside Gmc. are Skt. *druh-* "seek to harm,
      injure," Avestan *druz-* "lie, deceive." But O.E. *dream* meant only "joy,
      mirth," also "music." Words for "sleeping vision" in O.E. were *m�ting* and
      *swefn* (from PIE **swep-no-*; cf. Gk. *hypnos*). Much study has failed to
      prove that O.E. *dream* "noisy merriment" is the root of the modern word for
      "sleeping vision," despite being identical in spelling. Either the meaning
      of the word changed dramatically or "vision" was an unrecorded secondary
      O.E. meaning of *dream*, or there are two separate words here. "It seems as
      if the presence of *dream* 'joy, mirth, music,' had caused *dream* 'dream'
      to be avoided, at least in literature, and *swefn*, lit. 'sleep,' to be
      substituted" [OED]. *Dream* in the sense of "ideal or aspiration" is from
      1931, from earlier sense of "something of dream-like beauty or charm"
      (1888). Related: *Dreamed*; *dreaming*.

      I would start from *swep-no (PIE) and work forward

      Claire


      On 22 April 2010 13:48, anheropl0x <anheropl0x@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > So. in no dictionary can the word "dream" be found. Any idea what it might
      > have been in Gothic?
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • anheropl0x
      Many thanks. Also this book looks amazing, but I must wait until I have money before I can get it, and believe me, I will.
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 22, 2010
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        Many thanks. Also this book looks amazing, but I must wait until I have money before I can get it, and believe me, I will.

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@...> wrote:
        >
        > AFAIK, it was draums. Pls see my book, The Goths, Children of the Storm, particularly the poem, "Lady Ranilo's Dream" (Ranilons Draums Fraujons).
        > Arthur
        >
        > ARTHUR A. JONES
        >
        > --- On Thu, 4/22/10, anheropl0x <anheropl0x@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: anheropl0x <anheropl0x@...>
        > Subject: [gothic-l] Unknown Word(s)
        > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Thursday, April 22, 2010, 2:48 PM
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        > So. in no dictionary can the word "dream" be found. Any idea what it might have been in Gothic?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • anheropl0x
        Thank you for finding this. But I must say I can t work forward. Next to Gothic, Latin is the oldest language I know. Still, I thank you a lot.
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 22, 2010
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          Thank you for finding this. But I must say I can't "work forward." Next to Gothic, Latin is the oldest language I know. Still, I thank you a lot.
        • Grsartor@aol.com
          About the likely Gothic word for dream : this came up some years ago and there was actually some acrimony (!) between champions of the two suggested words
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 23, 2010
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            About the likely Gothic word for "dream": this came up some years ago and
            there was actually some acrimony (!) between champions of the two suggested
            words "draum" and "dragm". I do not know enough to take sides, though I can
            at least see "dragm" would have analogies in the Gothic for tree and for
            tear: bagm and tagr, as opposed, e.g., to Old English (and modern) beam and
            tear.

            Gerry T.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • anheropl0x
            I have another question that I can t seem to find explained anywhere. Would you say that when a prefix, such as ana/fra/bi is added to a word like
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 23, 2010
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              I have another question that I can't seem to find explained anywhere. Would you say that when a prefix, such as "ana/fra/bi" is added to a word like "biudan/dailjan/domjan,"
              would the pronunciation change from "byooðan/dajljan/dōmjan" to "ana-vyooðan/fra-ðajljan/bi-ðōmjan"? I hope my transliteration is up to par with being simple enough to serve its purpose here.

              Also, I made a reply to my other post to keep from making another thread. I understand my posts are not much like other posts here, dealing with the people more than the random aspects of the language, so I hope that I do not annoy people here.
              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@...> wrote:
              >
              > So. in no dictionary can the word "dream" be found. Any idea what it might have been in Gothic?
              >
            • OSCAR HERRE
              theres wrights dictionary..... ... From: anheropl0x Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Unknown Word(s) To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday,
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 23, 2010
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                theres wrights dictionary.....

                --- On Fri, 4/23/10, anheropl0x <anheropl0x@...> wrote:


                From: anheropl0x <anheropl0x@...>
                Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Unknown Word(s)
                To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, April 23, 2010, 2:04 PM


                 



                I have another question that I can't seem to find explained anywhere. Would you say that when a prefix, such as "ana/fra/bi" is added to a word like "biudan/dailjan/ domjan,"
                would the pronunciation change from "byooðan/dajljan/ dōmjan" to "ana-vyooðan/ fra-ðajljan/ bi-ðō mjan"? I hope my transliteration is up to par with being simple enough to serve its purpose here.

                Also, I made a reply to my other post to keep from making another thread. I understand my posts are not much like other posts here, dealing with the people more than the random aspects of the language, so I hope that I do not annoy people here.
                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > So. in no dictionary can the word "dream" be found. Any idea what it might have been in Gothic?
                >








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • gotenfreund
                Great questions. Another one I have wondered about: is fraitan pronounced as frajtan or fra-itan ? Based on the preterite, I have always assumed the
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 23, 2010
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                  Great questions. Another one I have wondered about: is "fraitan" pronounced as "frajtan" or "fra-itan"? Based on the preterite, I have always assumed the former pronunciation, but it bothers me (because of the analogous Ger. essen/fressen, I guess my feeling is they should rhyme - this is admittedly unscientific).

                  As for your sample words, I have always treated them as your first examples, as if the prefix were a separate element that doesn't affect pronunciation, but I have to admit I have absolutely no proof for this. I'll look in my Gothic books this weekend and try to find an answer.

                  Regards,

                  Eric

                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I have another question that I can't seem to find explained anywhere. Would you say that when a prefix, such as "ana/fra/bi" is added to a word like "biudan/dailjan/domjan,"
                  > would the pronunciation change from "byooðan/dajljan/dōmjan" to "ana-vyooðan/fra-ðajljan/bi-ðōmjan"? I hope my transliteration is up to par with being simple enough to serve its purpose here.
                  >
                  > Also, I made a reply to my other post to keep from making another thread. I understand my posts are not much like other posts here, dealing with the people more than the random aspects of the language, so I hope that I do not annoy people here.
                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > So. in no dictionary can the word "dream" be found. Any idea what it might have been in Gothic?
                  > >
                  >
                • anheropl0x
                  Fraïtan is indeed said fra-itan. Every book I ve seen says this, so far. I guess it would be a clue in such words as anabiudan, but b is not a vowel, so I
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 23, 2010
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                    Fraïtan is indeed said "fra-itan." Every book I've seen says this, so far. I guess it would be a clue in such words as anabiudan, but b is not a vowel, so I can't say for sure.

                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "gotenfreund" <ekinzel@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Great questions. Another one I have wondered about: is "fraitan" pronounced as "frajtan" or "fra-itan"? Based on the preterite, I have always assumed the former pronunciation, but it bothers me (because of the analogous Ger. essen/fressen, I guess my feeling is they should rhyme - this is admittedly unscientific).
                    >
                    > As for your sample words, I have always treated them as your first examples, as if the prefix were a separate element that doesn't affect pronunciation, but I have to admit I have absolutely no proof for this. I'll look in my Gothic books this weekend and try to find an answer.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > Eric
                    >
                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I have another question that I can't seem to find explained anywhere. Would you say that when a prefix, such as "ana/fra/bi" is added to a word like "biudan/dailjan/domjan,"
                    > > would the pronunciation change from "byooðan/dajljan/dōmjan" to "ana-vyooðan/fra-ðajljan/bi-ðōmjan"? I hope my transliteration is up to par with being simple enough to serve its purpose here.
                    > >
                    > > Also, I made a reply to my other post to keep from making another thread. I understand my posts are not much like other posts here, dealing with the people more than the random aspects of the language, so I hope that I do not annoy people here.
                    > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > So. in no dictionary can the word "dream" be found. Any idea what it might have been in Gothic?
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • anheropl0x
                    I have part of it. And I doubt a dictionary would clarify such a question. It takes language schematics to figure that one out, not a list of words and their
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 23, 2010
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                      I have part of it. And I doubt a dictionary would clarify such a question. It takes language schematics to figure that one out, not a list of words and their translations. And since neither Bennet's nor Wright's books mention this... well I shouldn't have to spell it out.

                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRE <duke.co@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > theres wrights dictionary.....
                      >
                    • 𐍆𐍂𐌹𐌸𐌿
                      Isnt fraitan spelled with diaeresis on the i, like fraïtan? In that case it would be pronounced fra-itan and not frajtan.
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 23, 2010
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                        Isnt fraitan spelled with diaeresis on the i, like fraïtan?
                        In that case it would be pronounced fra-itan and not frajtan.


                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "gotenfreund" <ekinzel@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Great questions. Another one I have wondered about: is "fraitan" pronounced as "frajtan" or "fra-itan"? Based on the preterite, I have always assumed the former pronunciation, but it bothers me (because of the analogous Ger. essen/fressen, I guess my feeling is they should rhyme - this is admittedly unscientific).
                        >
                        > As for your sample words, I have always treated them as your first examples, as if the prefix were a separate element that doesn't affect pronunciation, but I have to admit I have absolutely no proof for this. I'll look in my Gothic books this weekend and try to find an answer.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        > Eric
                        >
                        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I have another question that I can't seem to find explained anywhere. Would you say that when a prefix, such as "ana/fra/bi" is added to a word like "biudan/dailjan/domjan,"
                        > > would the pronunciation change from "byooðan/dajljan/dōmjan" to "ana-vyooðan/fra-ðajljan/bi-ðōmjan"? I hope my transliteration is up to par with being simple enough to serve its purpose here.
                        > >
                        > > Also, I made a reply to my other post to keep from making another thread. I understand my posts are not much like other posts here, dealing with the people more than the random aspects of the language, so I hope that I do not annoy people here.
                        > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > So. in no dictionary can the word "dream" be found. Any idea what it might have been in Gothic?
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • 𐍆𐍂𐌹𐌸𐌿
                        If this isnt any special case then a would assume that the d in domjan would change from d to ð if you add a prefix such as bi-. The only explanation I read
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 23, 2010
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                          If this isnt any special case then a would assume that the d in domjan would change from d to ð if you add a prefix such as bi-.

                          The only explanation I read is that it should be pronounced this way when intervocalic but maybe there are exceptions.

                          Id go for biðomjan etc.

                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I have another question that I can't seem to find explained anywhere. Would you say that when a prefix, such as "ana/fra/bi" is added to a word like "biudan/dailjan/domjan,"
                          > would the pronunciation change from "byooðan/dajljan/dōmjan" to "ana-vyooðan/fra-ðajljan/bi-ðōmjan"? I hope my transliteration is up to par with being simple enough to serve its purpose here.
                          >
                          > Also, I made a reply to my other post to keep from making another thread. I understand my posts are not much like other posts here, dealing with the people more than the random aspects of the language, so I hope that I do not annoy people here.
                          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "anheropl0x" <anheropl0x@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > So. in no dictionary can the word "dream" be found. Any idea what it might have been in Gothic?
                          > >
                          >
                        • ○
                          I do not think it could have been dragm based on the analogy with bagm and westgermanic baum. Think about north germanic baðm. Then dream would have been
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 20, 2010
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                            I do not think it could have been dragm based on the analogy with bagm and westgermanic baum. Think about north germanic baðm. Then dream would have been draðmur in icelandic which it's not. It's draumur.
                            The older form would perhaps have been draugmaz which in gothic would've yielded draums.

                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@... wrote:
                            >
                            > About the likely Gothic word for "dream": this came up some years ago and
                            > there was actually some acrimony (!) between champions of the two suggested
                            > words "draum" and "dragm". I do not know enough to take sides, though I can
                            > at least see "dragm" would have analogies in the Gothic for tree and for
                            > tear: bagm and tagr, as opposed, e.g., to Old English (and modern) beam and
                            > tear.
                            >
                            > Gerry T.
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Grsartor@aol.com
                            I do not wish to champion dragm as Gothic for a dream; nor, for that matter, draum . I do not know enough about reconstruction to argue one way or the
                            Message 13 of 15 , May 21, 2010
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                              I do not wish to champion "dragm" as Gothic for a dream; nor, for that
                              matter, "draum". I do not know enough about reconstruction to argue one way or
                              the other. I merely put on record that when this matter came up before, it
                              seemed to raise surprisingly strong feelings.

                              Gerry T.


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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