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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Antes==An(ak)tes/Anakes=Anaktes

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  • Ivan Kotliarov
    ... Sorry, this is wrong, unfortunately. Romanian is full of Slavic loanwords (for example the word for war - razboi - is perfectly Slavic). Voyevoda is much
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 29, 2009
      > Everybody is aware of this slavic "translation" which makes no sense at all. The office is of King/Basileus not colonel.

      Sorry, this is wrong, unfortunately. Romanian is full of Slavic loanwords (for example the word for war - razboi - is perfectly Slavic). Voyevoda is much more than a simple colonel - this is a military leader, which later evolved into civil leader too - do not forget Polish voivodships, or that Austro-Hungarian emperors also hold the title of Voyevoda for their Serbian possessions.

      So do not try to explain everything on the basis of folk etymologies. In Russia there are guys, who thinks that the word Etruscan is just a debased version of the Russian expression "eto russkiye" - these are Russians. I am afraid you make now the same mistake
    • dciurchea
      In fact, not a matter of scale but of language. For Slavic(and Romanian) peoples around, Voyevode means anakes == judge, ruler, king (just google on
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 30, 2009
        In fact, not a matter of scale but of language.
        For Slavic(and Romanian) peoples around, Voyevode means anakes == judge, ruler, king (just google on "Carantania"=Slovenia as an example)- not warrior which is a temporary job. Making everything Slavic in the Gothic realm belongs to the Stalinian occupation. The obvious correlation Woden=Anakes=> Goth as God makes no sense from Slavic.
        My contributions use the
        1.local archeological finds along with meseum artefacts here in Cluj-the most complete museum on history of Transylvania(such as Dacian and Neolitic artefacts,Apollo and Mithra representations on funeral stellae, antlers, celtic cross seal, numeous necropolae, etc)
        2. I take Erdely Tortenete seriously on data not interpretation.
        3. I am successfull in identifying Romanian(i.e. Wallachian-e.g. Odin's Valakijalf) phonems and toponimics in Jordannes, which makes the text perfectly viable for the 100AD-300AD period, a feature not obtained until now.
        4. My methodic contribution is the use of the least squares method in modelling experimental data: The model must avoid systematic errors (such as mother tongue of the Goths) and must fit many events; more exents fitted yield a more reliable model-that's me. Note that most of Jordannes readers finish by considering that the story is not sustainable although it is a very educated account of events but with mixed languages and with toponimics not familiar to everyone, so it is not an easy lecture to follow from e.g. France.






        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Marja Erwin <marja-e@...> wrote:
        >
        > Is this simply an objection to the change in scale?
        >
        > English "folk" (human beings in general) and German "Volk" (a people) have cognates ranging from a whole people, to a whole army, to a specific sub-tribe, to a specific military unit. So some terms have made analogous changes in scale.
        >
        > On Dec 29, 2009, at 3:20 PM, dciurchea wrote:
        >
        > > Everybody is aware of this slavic "translation" which makes no sense at all. The office is of King/Basileus not colonel.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Ivan Kotliarov <lrpg@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > In latin the equivalent is Dominus and Voievod(Voyevoda) - in romanian
        > > > - meaning "I allow you=Voie va dau(a da voie==to allow; va=to you ",
        > > > fitting the Greek Anakes as eplained by Plutarch, abreviated as
        > > > Voda/Wodan.
        > > >
        > > > Sorry, this is absolutely incorrect - Voievod came form Slavic
        > > > Voyevoda - Voye-Voda military leader (literally "one who conducts the
        > > > warriors")
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Best wishes,
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Ivan
        >
        > Marja Erwin
        > marja-e@...
        >
      • dciurchea
        I believe it is instructive to note that the Basileic Gets were reported in antiquity and the Voyevode institution remained active in Slavic feuds such as
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 30, 2009
          I believe it is instructive to note that the "Basileic Gets" were reported in antiquity and the Voyevode institution remained active in Slavic feuds such as Carantania/Carinthia, where it meant ruler until 13-th Century.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Carinthia
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince%27s_Stone
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke%27s_Chair
          Association with king/duke is circumstantial. It is about the same meaning(translation) as the greek "anakós cchein"-see post. Since the Slavic 'connection' (chieftain) has not this meaning, it is useless for our purposes. Anyway it can't yield Gothic Woden. That incorrect meaning in Slavic made the Slavic historians from Slovenia to ignore this easy translation also.

          It is very likely that this institution was copied everywhere, including in the Roman Empire, where the Imperator has the function of ruler. Caeser's account of the cult of Hermes(usually confused with Apollo as protector of travellers), Caesar himself a "Iulius", indicates the significant spread of this religion in the non Roman world outside the Scandza/Dacia axis.

          Remember that Trojans worshiped Apollo and the genealogic lineage of the Gothic kings goes back to Troy, which may be important for understanding the anses/'anakes' institution which made the king a God and therefore his land "Gothaland" yielding "Goth" (much easier than a misspell of Woden).

          The most important consequence is that we may copy back from Eddas the non-Greek philosophy of Apollo (?) relying on complementarity (the twins ! ).


          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "gotenfreund" <ekinzel@...> wrote:
          >
          > I don't think the Slavic etymology is as absurd as you make it sound.
          >
          > 1. There is a semantic (and developmental) equivalent in the Germanic languages: German Herzog, which is attested in Old Saxon, Old High German, and Old English (and possibly others of which I am unaware). It originally meant "army" + "puller, tugger, attracter" (sorry for bad translation). So, "war leader" or "chieftain" in its archaic meaning, it later became, and is now, a hereditary title in German: "Duke".
          >
          > 2. nouns formed on the model "voiyevod" are common in Slavic: peshechod, lit. "go by foot", i.e. "pedestrian"; listopad, lit. "leaf-falling", i.e. "October"; Samoyed, lit. "self-eater", i.e. "cannibal", for the Russians thought the Samoyeds were cannibals when the first encountered them.
          >
          > 3. Your theory would need to explain how a Romanian term came into use in Kiev and Novgorod. Did the Romanians have such an influence on the Russian language, as well as all other Slavic languages?
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "dciurchea" <dciurchea@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Everybody is aware of this slavic "translation" which makes no sense at all. The office is of King/Basileus not colonel.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Ivan Kotliarov <lrpg@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > In latin the equivalent is Dominus and Voievod(Voyevoda) - in romanian
          > > > - meaning "I allow you=Voie va dau(a da voie==to allow; va=to you ",
          > > > fitting the Greek Anakes as eplained by Plutarch, abreviated as
          > > > Voda/Wodan.
          > > >
          > > > Sorry, this is absolutely incorrect - Voievod came form Slavic
          > > > Voyevoda - Voye-Voda military leader (literally "one who conducts the
          > > > warriors")
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Best wishes,
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Ivan
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Ivan Kotliarov
          Sorry, there is no word Wodan in Slavic. Voyevoda is a Slavic word, in its basic meaning - military leader, which was later extended to mean leader, chief in
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 30, 2009
            Sorry, there is no word Wodan in Slavic.

            Voyevoda is a Slavic word, in its basic meaning - military leader, which was later extended to mean leader, chief in general. This semantic extension is quite common for different languages.

            Please be very cautious with folk etymologies you use. Of course, it is necessary to forget Stalin's legacy, but do not sacrifice science to politics
          • Eric Kinzel
            sovershenno pravilno. To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com From: lrpg@mail.ru Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:54:43 +0300 Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re:
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 4, 2010
              sovershenno pravilno.



              To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
              From: lrpg@...
              Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:54:43 +0300
              Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Antes==An(ak)tes/Anakes=Anaktes





              Sorry, there is no word Wodan in Slavic.

              Voyevoda is a Slavic word, in its basic meaning - military leader, which was later extended to mean leader, chief in general. This semantic extension is quite common for different languages.

              Please be very cautious with folk etymologies you use. Of course, it is necessary to forget Stalin's legacy, but do not sacrifice science to politics





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