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Perfetc form of verbs

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  • Friþureiks
    Since gothic doesnt have any perfect form I wonder if it yu think it s ok to express it in this way. Using the verb haban if having done something e.g. told a
    Message 1 of 3 , Oct 28, 2009
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      Since gothic doesnt have any perfect form I wonder if it yu think it's ok to express it in this way. Using the verb haban if having done something e.g. told a story. If done smth like walking or running or any moving action then using the verb wisan.
      This is how I mean examplified.

      þos qinons sind du þamma gudahusa gagganaizos.

      lit. the women are du the temple gone. (the verb gaggans used as adjective describing the persons that have done smth, here the women)

      sa guma habeiþ twans saggwins suggwanans.

      lit. the man has two songs sung (the verb suggwans used as adjective describing what the man has, here the two songs. since the man litterarly has/got two songs that are sung).

      ps. I hope i used the correct declentions, but im not that sure ;)
    • Grsartor@aol.com
      Hi, gadrauhts and all other members. About perfects in Gothic, and sorry for taking a long time about answering. First, a longish digression, summarising an
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 9, 2010
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        Hi, gadrauhts and all other members.

        About perfects in Gothic, and sorry for taking a long time about answering.
        First, a longish digression, summarising an unsystematic look at parts of
        the Gothic New Testament and the original Greek, which indicates the
        following.

        Where translations into English have a perfect Gothic regularly uses a
        preterite. This is true even when the construction is virtually a present ("I
        have been with you so long") and would, I believe, be so translated in, eg,
        French and German. However, we should bear in mind that the translation was
        made from documents written in Greek, in which a preterite usually lies
        behind a construction that in English is expressed by a perfect. The perfect
        seems to be used much more sparingly in Greek than in English. Where a
        Greek perfect is used, it still seems to be a preterite in Gothic, as in the
        following examples, in which the original Greek is followed by its
        translations into Gothic and English:

        Mark 1:15
        engike he basileia tou theou (the kingdom has drawn near)
        atnehvida sik thiudangardi guths (the kingdom approached)
        the kingdom of God is at hand (RSV translation)

        Mark 1:38
        exelelytha (I have come out)
        qam (I came)
        I came out (RSV translation)

        John 14:9 is interesting:

        tosouton chronon meth hymon eimi kai ouk egnokas me (so long I am with you
        and you have not got to know me)
        swalaud melis mith izwis was jah ni ufkuntheis mik (the Gothic uses two
        preterites)
        "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me?" (RSV
        translation)

        In conditional sentences "would have done" something is expressed by a
        preterite subjunctive.

        Wulfila's Gothic is often a very literal translation from the Greek, but in
        his treatment of tenses it looks as if he has regard above all for Gothic
        usage.

        Now, to come to the suggested use of perfect participles with "haban" and
        "wisan". So far as I know or can recall there are no examples of active
        perfects so expressed in Gothic, but since other Germanic tongues have adopted
        the "have done" and "have/is gone" construction, which I am told originated
        with the Latin tongues, it seems a fair guess that if Gothic had survived
        it, too, would have acquired this mode of expression. To introduce it
        therefore would seem to be much like making new words to fill the gaps in the
        extant Gothic. The only caution I feel like expressing is that if you make a
        new perfect, it would be desirable to be quite clear what its purpose
        should be; for the perfect as used in English no doubt does a somewhat different
        job from its counterparts in other tongues. Indeed, there even seem to be
        differences between British and American use of the perfect.

        Gerry T.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Marja Erwin
        Yep. Such as the perennial dispute over whether to have got and to have gotten are correct and incorrect forms, or are two forms with distinct meanings
        Message 3 of 3 , Jan 9, 2010
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          Yep. Such as the perennial dispute over whether "to have got" and "to have gotten" are correct and incorrect forms, or are two forms with distinct meanings (the first being close in meaning to "to have," and the second being closer in meaning to "to have received.")

          On Jan 9, 2010, at 9:36 AM, Grsartor@... wrote:

          > <snip>
          >
          > Now, to come to the suggested use of perfect participles with "haban" and
          > "wisan". So far as I know or can recall there are no examples of active
          > perfects so expressed in Gothic, but since other Germanic tongues have adopted
          > the "have done" and "have/is gone" construction, which I am told originated
          > with the Latin tongues, it seems a fair guess that if Gothic had survived
          > it, too, would have acquired this mode of expression. To introduce it
          > therefore would seem to be much like making new words to fill the gaps in the
          > extant Gothic. The only caution I feel like expressing is that if you make a
          > new perfect, it would be desirable to be quite clear what its purpose
          > should be; for the perfect as used in English no doubt does a somewhat different
          > job from its counterparts in other tongues. Indeed, there even seem to be
          > differences between British and American use of the perfect.
          >
          > Gerry T.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          Marja Erwin
          marja-e@...
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