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Re: Shulanda

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  • Ingemar Nordgren
    Dear Authari, It is indeed an interesting question you put. I have looked in Hellquist Etymological Dictionary and the word schul is included as middle low
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 1, 2009
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      Dear Authari,

      It is indeed an interesting question you put. I have looked in
      Hellquist Etymological Dictionary and the word 'schul' is included as
      middle low german for shelter, hut, hiding place, in Swedish we say
      'skjul' for this. The ending '-landa' is connected with the word
      'land', area, firm ground, beach as opposite to sea et c. In the
      specifik form '-landa'in farm- or place names it means in Swedish an
      area of land used by somebody living there in opposite to land that is
      not claimed by anybody particular. As a verb in Sw. landa means to
      land with a boat.

      There is a theory among else proposed by Ottar Grønvik that part of
      the Crimean Goths were of Lowgerman - but not of Dutch, Saxon or
      Jutish - origin - i.e. Westgermanic, but also Scandinavian dialects
      are in bottom just both Northgermanic and Lowgermanic. Still there are
      some toponyms that to me seem just fitting with Dutch and I can as
      well personally think of both Saxon and Jutish. I have written a
      little about Gothic toponyms in the Crimea in my book, The Well Spring
      of the Goths, and I have had good help by an article and good advice
      from professor Alexandra Superanskaya at Academia Naust in Moscow and,
      of course, Vasilievs book. I then have tried to draw some simple
      conclusions myself of the material.

      I give you some excerpts of the book treating this subject but,
      remember, I am not a linguist myself but I rather try to show what
      different experts say.

      Best greetings!
      Ingemar

      ". Busbecq himself saw great similarities with Saxon, and if you look
      to the counting-words I mean they are close to both Northgermanic and
      Westgermanic in the area of the Netherlands – i.e. they have a
      Low-German and Scandinavian similarity of e.g. 31= treithyen och
      41=furdeithien. Loewe regarded them as Heruls and Karsten as a mixture
      of Ostrogoths and Heruls while Krause means they were Goths mixed with
      various Westgermanics. Ernst Schwarz places them among the
      Northgermanics. (Høst 1971, p.45)
      Mac Donald Stearns jr. has made a thorough analysis of the language
      and he puts it together with the Bible-Gothic in the Eastgermanic
      language-group, since it deviates from both Northgermanic and
      Westgermanic. He refers to that the Goths arrived in the Crimea in the
      250's, and it fits with the assumption that the Crimean-Gothic dialect
      should have been extracted some time around 200 AD. He remarks that
      there is a distinct possibility that loan-words and other renewals
      might have come from elsewhere during the passing of time. (Stearns
      1978, s. 118 ff. )

      In Nowele 1995 Ottar Grønvik has written a debate-article where he
      claims that Crimean Gothic is of Westgermanic origin, and he then goes
      out from the latest language-tree variant where Gothic is presupposed
      to come directly from Proto-Germanic, while Northgermanic is secondary
      developed from North-Westgermanic according to the picture below...

      . In Crimean Gothic the old e1 is represented by i and hence it can
      not be of Northgermanic origin, Grønvik claims, but well Westgermanic.
      Later the language has developed together with Gothic, and he from
      this concludes that a Westgermanic people has taken part in the
      migration by the Goths. The origin-area he supports on the single word
      kommen, which he means is the only one among the around hundred
      words from Busbecq that is useable. It's similarity with German leads
      him to place the tribe in the neighbourhood of the Oder or the middle
      Elbe, since he because of this word finds it less probable that it is
      an ingvaeonic language like Anglo-Frisian or Old Saxon. He also
      regards it as a support for polyethnical elements in the Gothic
      migration. (Grønvik 1995, p.75 ff)...

      With regard to that Stearns jr indeed classified it as an Eastgermanic
      language in the Gothic language-family Grønvik is not quite
      convincing. There still exists a possibility that the Crimean Goths
      already from the beginning have been of a polyethnical character
      including both Vistula-Goths, Northgermanics and Westgermanics, or
      that the language in time has been mixed up with new elements. In any
      case it is a little too hasty to decide the area of origin to middle
      Germany with support of a single word. He tries to strenghten his
      argumentation through referring to a paper by Neumann and Düwel 1985,
      where they treat an old city- and river-name Greek Aloúston, today
      Alušta , on the Crimea. The authors have connected this with OHG.
      erila from older elira, OE. alor, OWN. @lr < Germanic *aliz-, *aluz
      and mean that it for a place-name is nessecary to add the suffix -ta-
      (Germanic *alusta-/*alista-, cf.. Lat. arbustum `equipped with
      trees'). They refer to the Westphalian river-name Alst (12th c. Alest)
      and to the Dutch place-name Aalst (a. 866 Alost) and Elst (a. 911
      Eliste). Grønvik's analysis of the wovels, however, seems rather
      convincing, but it should in that case as well be possible to
      interpret it as Anglo-Frisian. Specially so since Aalst and Elst occur
      in the argumentation. I have above suggested that also the Jutes,
      Ýtas, 'the outpoured' should be included in the Gothic cultic area,
      and then it is in no way preposterous to assume possible connections
      with neighbouring Anglic tribes. Grønvik also remarks that e1 in ON.
      was a which is found on rune-stones from the 3rd c. and forward, but
      how rapidly that developement grasped over all tribes in
      South-Scandinavia is still unknown, since the inscriptions often are
      judged as a special runic coiné, applicated by rune-masters working
      over vast areas. Their evidence-value hence is disputed. Grønvik
      however has a clear point when he demonstrates the thinkable size of
      the origin-area with polyethnical components in the language. This
      indeed strenghtens my thesis, that it was not primarily the language
      but the religious origin that united the Goths – they all had an
      ancestry from Gaut, the outpourer, they simply were 'the humans',
      'the outpoured'. Grønvik indeed later claims that Gaut was an early
      name of Óðinn which appeared on the Continent and spread northwards
      (Grønvik 1995, p.89 ff), but his arguments are in this case not
      convincing regarding that all those peoples/dynasties who claim
      ancestry from Gaut also claim to come from the Scandinavian area, or
      are confirmed to come from there. There still is a certain strenght in
      the suggestion that the Crimean Goths represent an at least partly
      polyethnical mixture, if you assume that a considerable number
      originally were Ingvaeones, who lived in the outskirts of the Gothic
      influence-area, and had longer than the Goths stayed with the old
      fertility-cultic habits. This namely could possibly explain why they
      never took the Arianism but all the time in the Christian epoch were
      loyal to the Romano-Greek church of Constantinople which with
      Teodosius became the catholic, universal church. This explanation
      concerning polyethnicity also could support that some of them also
      might have been Heruls. They emigrated early from Scandinavia and so
      they might have been exposed to different linguistic influences on the
      Continent before they lined up with the Goths in the Pontic area. They
      besides are actually confirmed as Gothic allies and are known to have
      lived close to the Ostrogoths/Greutungi and were active on the Black
      Sea with maritime warfare. They are not counted as Goths from the
      beginning, but a number of remaining Heruls well could have been
      Gothizised in the same manner as other originally non-Goths, and like
      other non-Goths it should be as natural for them to accept the Greek
      creed as I suggested for the Ingvaeones. In any case, in my opinion, a
      possible Westgermanic people on the Crimea must have an origin west or
      north of Germany.

      Concerning the last Crimean Goths Supeanskaya however has an own
      opinion. F.A. Braun (1890) has in Zhyvaya Starina told about a
      journey he undertook to Mariupol on the northern shore of the Sea of
      Asov, whereto the Crimean Greek had been forced to move in 1877 from
      the Bakhchisarai-region under the impression that Catharina the Great
      wanted to protect the Christian against Islam. In reality the
      migration weakened the base of the reign of the kahn on the Crimea and
      led to a later Russian annectation of the peninsula. Braun searched
      for possible Gothic population-remnants. There were 25 villages in the
      vicinity of Mariupol, where the transferred Greeks lived. Some of them
      spoke Greek, other Tatar-languages but nobody spoke a Germanic or
      distantly reminding language. Braun however in every village found
      several persons he meant were of Gothic etnicity with blond hair, blue
      eyes, high-grown and also more corpulent than the Greeks and the
      Tatars. One of them had the nick-name Chalbasch – the white-head.
      These Superanskay beleives were the last Crimean Goths.
      (Superanskaya1995, pers.com.)
      A Tataric researcher, Kurtiyev, has found traces after the Goths in i
      Uskyt (present Privetnoye). The place Iskyt also was of great interest
      out of an ethnographical point of wiew, since the place had name in
      two languages, and there were peculiarities in the way of living and
      the clothing-habits of the population. There also occured the
      person-name Gafrid - probably Gottfrid Superanskaya writes, and she
      supposes also that the place-names might refer to the Scyths, since
      the Goths were called so in the beginning. She besides points out that
      in 1944 all non-Slavs (except of the Karaites) were deported from the
      Crimea, and almost all place-names were changed, which she quite
      correctly regards as a toponymic genocide. (Superanskaya 1992, p.144 f)
      The Goths on the Crimea, Superanskaya means, sometimes may be regarded
      as polyethnonyms, since Goths to the Greeks was a collective name of
      all Germanic tribes as an opposite to non-Germanics, occasionally also
      a tribal union but not nessecarily a Germanic such. This is quite
      interesting considering my basic claim the Goths primarily from the
      beginning were a cultic league or, else formulated, just a tribal
      religious union – not nessecarily a political. Other Gothic ethnonyms
      are tetraxites and trapezites but they do not include all Crimean
      Goths. The Trapezites have got name after their living-space at the
      mountain Trapezus, and some beleive that these Goths have founded the
      city Trapezunt on the Caucasian side of the Black Sea. Tetraxites were
      those Goths inhabiting the peninsulae Taman and Kertch. Procopius
      mentiones them as another ethnical group than the Crimean Goths. Their
      capital was Fanagoria close to Anapa, and they shall according to
      Procopius have lived at Kertch since 275 AD.
      Superanskaya beleives it is possible that tetraxites
      (Greek.) come from  tetra: four, fourth taxis:
      `class, order, troup'. The Goths were divided in three groups
      –Eastgoths, Westgoths and Gepids. The Tetraxites might have been
      differed from them rather early, she suggests, and they were divided
      from the other Goths through marshes and hence had difficulties to
      keep in touch. They accordingly are "the fourth group", she proposes.
      Vasilyevsk (1912) compares Tmutarakan in the old Russian sources with
      Tetraxites/Tmetraxitei and thinks that the name of this old Russian
      princedom might be derived from the name of this Gothic nation.
      Vasilyevsk also compares other names on the Taman-peninsula,
      Greek. and Lat. Matrica, Matercha, to prove the possibility
      of such an adaptation. Superanskaya here sees a possibility that this
      could explain the mentioning of "the Gothic maidens at the beach of
      the blue sea".(Superanskaya 1992, p.145)
      Concerning the place-names – the toponyms – she points out the
      difficulties with more than 40 languages with many dialects, and that
      the Gothic elements in place-names not could be preserved in their
      original form, since the Goths not were the first on Crimea. When they
      arrived many places had already got their names and other in time got
      Turkish names. The single one which is undisputed is Gothia. She
      however remarks that the borders of Gothia are differently described
      by the authors. Sometimes it is confined to the Belbek-river/Kuchuk
      Uzenbash/Kap Ai-Thodor, but sometimes the whole southern coast of the
      Crimea is included. Many of the places where the Goths lived later got
      Turkish names, and here she mentiones Mangup Kale which was the new
      name of Doro. It means 'destroyed fortress'. DorosGreek,
      was the capital of the Goths until it was
      conquered and destroyed, and the meaning of the name is disputed, but
      by all evidents to judge of Greek descent. The oldest Gothic graves
      are from the 5th to the 7th cc, and characteristic for all
      pre-Christian graves in Gothic areas is, according to Repnikov(1932),
      that no weapons have been found. (Superanskaya 1992, p.146)
      A Crimean-Gothic name which may be of a certain interest is the word
      Fula/Fulli (Greek. , ). Superanskaya says that
      several researchers mean that it only exists one such name, but she
      herself has a long list. The for us most interesting are the forms
      Pula, Phyle and Thulle. The Romans beleived that Fulla was a legendary
      land in the north, and Goethe wrote a ballad about the king living in
      Fula/Thule. It is hard to know if all these forms are the same word,
      and the Russian letter can replace both ph and th Superanskaya
      comments. (Superanskaya 1992, p.147)"

      Here, NB, is a really hot spot concerning the original -landa question:

      "There are a considerable number of -sala-names within the Gothic
      areas on the Crimea but no Upsala. About these names Superanskaya writes:
      The element –sala is of Indo-European origin. It is a place-name. Cf.
      the Germanic name Salaber (sala `place, house and ber(th) `perfect,
      radiating'). The element –sala takes the first position in the
      personal name and the second position in a place-name. Further it
      easily might be connected with Turkish elements; Bughaz Sala (bughaz =
      mountain-pass), Suuk Sala (suuk = sour), Kodzhasala (kodzha is an
      honorary title). (Superanskaya 1992, p.148)
      The –sala -names accordingly can not be used to prove a North- or
      West-Germanic origin, but still there is a distinct possibility that
      some of the –sala-names might be Gothic.
      Other toponymic endings in the area are among else -anda, -inda,
      -unda, -onda. Examples of such place-names are Avonda/Avunda, Lunda
      och Terskunda. Here is according to Superanskaya a similarity with
      Germanic, and she writes:

      There are different hypothesis regarding their origin. A.Carnoy (195l,
      p.102) mentiones the old French term warande `protected place, park,
      fence'. The word is still used in the Netherlands. (Superanskaya 1992,
      p.148)

      Here, accordingly, exists a possible connection to a Westgermanic
      origin for parts of the Crimean Goths, and then rather an
      Anglo-Frisian. It is however not possible to disregard that Rus and
      Varjags of supposed Scandinavian origin also have ben extant in the
      area later, and hence might have affected the toponymic geography."




      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "authari" <authari@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello friends
      > Last year we made a wide archeological survey in neighborhood of
      > Mangup and Eski-kermen (South-Western Crimea) as a part of RGZM
      > project and found some monuments of Migrations period. Some of it is
      > situated near Ternovka village.
      > There is a cluster of toponimics with root "Shul": old name of
      > Ternovka is Shuli (or Eski-Shul; Eski - tatarian old), Shuldan -
      > byzantinian cave monastery and Shulanda.
      > Shul is not translateble from tatarian.I asked 84-year old local
      > tatarian for translation and he said that it means school
      > (not surprising - he worked as a driver for geman officer at
      > WWII),nobody can translate it now.
      > Local specialists of toponimics (Markevich, Bel'ansky) said that it
      > could not be translated from turcic languages. More than that names of
      > sites in Crimea ending -anda, -inda, -unda seem like ancient
      > (Shulanda, Oreanda, Marsanda(later Massandra), Avinda(Avunda).
      > Could be Shul-, Shulanda gothic words? (Shuli valley is core Crimean
      > gothic area). Do you have gothic etimology for it?
      > Google given me only a mess. Is it a name?
      > Thanks in advance.
      > Best wishes
      > PS
      > Coords of Shulanda by Google Earth 44°36'19.90"N 33°42'53.27"E
      >
    • Ingemar Nordgren
      Dear Authari, I should of course have concluded with suggestion for Shulanda. I beleive it means simply The refuge, shelter or hut-cabin within a fenced
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 1, 2009
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        Dear Authari,

        I should of course have concluded with suggestion for Shulanda. I
        beleive it means simply 'The refuge, shelter or hut-cabin within a
        fenced area', which could be a good name also for a village. I see it
        as a Germanic word but if it is Wulfilan Gothic or influenced by
        North- or Westgermanic is an open question.
        Best
        Ingemar
      • Ingemar Nordgren
        ... I have been delving for a while on my suggestion below and must add that it simply could be a term used of a fortification, a fortress or a fortified
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 2, 2009
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar@...> wrote:

          I have been delving for a while on my suggestion below and must add
          that it simply could be a term used of a fortification, a fortress or
          a fortified village and hence not a real unique place name but a
          functional name. Pick your choice!

          Best
          Ingemar


          > Dear Authari,
          >
          > I should of course have concluded with suggestion for Shulanda. I
          > beleive it means simply 'The refuge, shelter or hut-cabin within a
          > fenced area', which could be a good name also for a village. I see it
          > as a Germanic word but if it is Wulfilan Gothic or influenced by
          > North- or Westgermanic is an open question.
          > Best
          > Ingemar
          >
        • authari
          Dear Ingemar Thank you for information. Just some notices. Your etimolomology fits situation very well. Shulanda is on a plateau near mountain pass through
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 3, 2009
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            Dear Ingemar
            Thank you for information.
            Just some notices. Your etimolomology fits situation very well.
            Shulanda is on a plateau near mountain pass through rock perimeter.
            This pass id blocked by fortress wall of rubble stone. There is also a
            concentration of stone constructions with Late Roman pottery. Shulanda
            is only 2-3 kilometers from Eski-Kermen â€" Byzantine fortress built in
            6-7 cc. Some kilometers to the West from Shulanda excavated
            cemeteries Saharnaja Golovka, Inkerman and Chornaja rechka with
            cremations and other Germanic features.
            Some notices
            It was surprising for me to read about Germanic origin of Alusta
            toponim because it has very good greek explanation. Aluston and
            Gorzubitae were build by Justinian the Great and are inside an area of
            distribution of cemeteries Type Suuk-su (with some Germanic features).
            As for the Uskut it is outside Gothic area (most eastern cemetery of
            this type at South Coast partly excavated by Lysenko and Teslenko two
            years ago at Semidvorje â€" several kilometers to the east from
            Alushta). Kurtiev is never mentioned in works of any serious
            scientist; he is not researcher but story writer. Superanskaya’s
            collection of toponims (it is not a map, no map provided) is of almost
            no value â€" all of it taken from popular books and turistic maps, even
            I know more. Crimean toponimics is not lost â€" almost all of it were
            collected by recently dead Bel’ansky. He put several thousands of it
            on the map (I have a copy, sorry it is still unpublished).
            Tatarian onomastics are extremely surprising mixture. Now among most
            popular names is Marlen (Marx-Lenin), Lemara (Lenin-Marx) and many of
            turcic, Arabian, Slavic, Caucasian, Persian, Cenral Asian origin.
            Local bureau of passport registration gone crazy when they had
            repatriated. Some of it has no uniform pronunciation (several
            variants). It was said about Gafrid.

            As for the archeological evidences of Crimean goths. There are near
            one hundred cemeteries of 6-9 cc AD (some of it started even in late
            4th century) known as catacomb cemetries of type Suuk-su and disposed
            in the South coast and SW Crimea (to the west from Alma river).
            Let you turn to publications of A.I. Ajbabin. (he had excavated
            Luchistoje, Eski-kermen, Bakla and some more sites and issued some
            pornographies and plenty of articles.
            More than that two cemetries with cremations and weapons of 4-5 cc AD
            (Ay-Todor near Oreanda and Chatyr-Dag near Alushta) are Germanic but
            not Gothic (may be herulian). Near Partenites (between Yalta and
            Alushta) they had excavated Late Roman sanctuary Aligora with bif
            fireplace, crashed glass vessel, terra sigilata and hand made pottery
            dated by coins of Gallian usurpers (Tetric etc). It was possible
            German mercenaries or pirates.
            Ay-Todor excavated and published in several articles of Orlov in 80-ies.
            Chatyr-Dag are receintly published as a book
            Several cemeteries with cremations are also excavated or found around
            Chersones (now all of it are robbed).
            Germans at Kerch peninsula is a separate tale; now I don’t want touch it.

            Mangup.
            Archeological expedition of Tavrian National univ. (Simferopol)
            excavates this site for decades. Very few material is published.
            Dissertation of prof. Alexander Gertsen about fortifications system
            (Russian lang.) issued in 1990 now is accessible via internet- if
            anybody need I will find the link Last years we get material which
            proved that fortress was built not at the time of Justinian but
            earlier â€"V century. Settlement at Mangup plateau with Late Roman
            material existed even in the and of IV c AD. Material from Lagernaya
            Balka gives except pottery, amphorae (mostly imported) terra sigilata,
            coins and animal bones also some fibulae of pure Chernjahov type.
            There are several catacomb cemetries of 4-9 cc at the outskirts of
            Mangup. I had excavated some. Two months ago finished works of
            Sidorenko at cemetery of 6-8 cc near Khodzha-sala.
            Most important cemetery is Almalyk â€" it gives rich comlices of late 4
            â€" late 8 cc AD. Ther are some graves with luxury finds of type
            Untersiebenbrunn. It even not only similar â€" some is identical. Here
            also fount one cremation grave, two kurgans and horse graves (similar
            to Djurso cemetery near Anapa â€" which belonged as they think to
            tetraxites). We found there also some swords (2 short and 2 spatha),
            many arrowheads of hunnic type and plates of bone for bows.
            One spath with silber buckles was fount in a separate pit inside
            chamber grave â€" it was hidden.
            Two years I have found in a grave of early 6 c. an umbo (shield-boss)
            of type very close to Horula. Seems like swords was not rare here
            â€" there are many pieces of it found with a flintstones in sets for
            ignition, but it was not common to put it inside grave. This fact is
            surprised a bit because this population was alano-gothic mixture and
            for alans swords in graves are common.
            Materials of near 100 graves of Almalyk and some nearest cemetries of
            this type is now processed by Dr. Magdalena Manczynska (Lodz) and this
            year I hope will be published as a catalogue in Germany.
            RGZM taken samples of 30 skeletons of DNA from Almalyk â€" soon we will
            know results
            I have many publications in PDF (like Chatyr-Dag, Sacharnaya Golovka
            (Sovkhoz 10) etc.
            If anybody need it I can put it on rapidshare. Sorry it is Russian
            language.

            The best book about Goths in Ukraine and Crimea is MB Schukin “Gotskij
            Put’” â€" “Gothish way” â€" in it you can find almost all bibliography.
            http://rapidshare.com/files/85431329/Shukin_Gotish_way.pdf.html

            I have made a website about Mangup excavations
            It has English version. http://mangexp.narod.ru/index.html


            Some photos from Almalyk
            Glass bowl from chamber grave 2 (5th century)- 3D reconstruction
            http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/9185/glassmiswh1.jpg

            Artificially deformed scull from Chamber grave 191 (early 6 cent)
            http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5479/scull1lm3.jpg

            Inside a chamber grave
            http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/1172/ksjuqj4.jpg

            Gold anthropomorphic plates (V c AD)
            http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8719/plaquesqw4.jpg

            Best wishes
            Serge
          • Ingemar Nordgren
            Hi Authari! I am glad you could use my suggestion. Thank you for your very thorough report about the last results in the Crimea! My very best wishes! Ingemar
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 5, 2009
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              Hi Authari!

              I am glad you could use my suggestion. Thank you for your very
              thorough report about the last results in the Crimea!

              My very best wishes!
              Ingemar


              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "authari" <authari@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Ingemar
              > Thank you for information.
              > Just some notices. Your etimolomology fits situation very well.
              > Shulanda is on a plateau near mountain pass through rock perimeter.
              > This pass id blocked by fortress wall of rubble stone. There is also a
              > concentration of stone constructions with Late Roman pottery. Shulanda
              > is only 2-3 kilometers from Eski-Kermen â€" Byzantine fortress built in
              > 6-7 cc. Some kilometers to the West from Shulanda excavated
              > cemeteries Saharnaja Golovka, Inkerman and Chornaja rechka with
              > cremations and other Germanic features.
              > Some notices
              > It was surprising for me to read about Germanic origin of Alusta
              > toponim because it has very good greek explanation. Aluston and
              > Gorzubitae were build by Justinian the Great and are inside an area of
              > distribution of cemeteries Type Suuk-su (with some Germanic features).
              > As for the Uskut it is outside Gothic area (most eastern cemetery of
              > this type at South Coast partly excavated by Lysenko and Teslenko two
              > years ago at Semidvorje â€" several kilometers to the east from
              > Alushta). Kurtiev is never mentioned in works of any serious
              > scientist; he is not researcher but story writer. Superanskaya’s
              > collection of toponims (it is not a map, no map provided) is of almost

              > no value â€" all of it taken from popular books and turistic maps, even
              > I know more. Crimean toponimics is not lost â€" almost all of it were
              > collected by recently dead Bel’ansky. He put several thousands of it
              > on the map (I have a copy, sorry it is still unpublished).
              > Tatarian onomastics are extremely surprising mixture. Now among most
              > popular names is Marlen (Marx-Lenin), Lemara (Lenin-Marx) and many of
              > turcic, Arabian, Slavic, Caucasian, Persian, Cenral Asian origin.
              > Local bureau of passport registration gone crazy when they had
              > repatriated. Some of it has no uniform pronunciation (several
              > variants). It was said about Gafrid.
              >
              > As for the archeological evidences of Crimean goths. There are near
              > one hundred cemeteries of 6-9 cc AD (some of it started even in late
              > 4th century) known as catacomb cemetries of type Suuk-su and disposed
              > in the South coast and SW Crimea (to the west from Alma river).
              > Let you turn to publications of A.I. Ajbabin. (he had excavated
              > Luchistoje, Eski-kermen, Bakla and some more sites and issued some
              > pornographies and plenty of articles.
              > More than that two cemetries with cremations and weapons of 4-5 cc AD
              > (Ay-Todor near Oreanda and Chatyr-Dag near Alushta) are Germanic but
              > not Gothic (may be herulian). Near Partenites (between Yalta and
              > Alushta) they had excavated Late Roman sanctuary Aligora with bif
              > fireplace, crashed glass vessel, terra sigilata and hand made pottery
              > dated by coins of Gallian usurpers (Tetric etc). It was possible
              > German mercenaries or pirates.
              > Ay-Todor excavated and published in several articles of Orlov in 80-ies.
              > Chatyr-Dag are receintly published as a book
              > Several cemeteries with cremations are also excavated or found around
              > Chersones (now all of it are robbed).
              > Germans at Kerch peninsula is a separate tale; now I don’t want
              touch it.
              >
              > Mangup.
              > Archeological expedition of Tavrian National univ. (Simferopol)
              > excavates this site for decades. Very few material is published.
              > Dissertation of prof. Alexander Gertsen about fortifications system
              > (Russian lang.) issued in 1990 now is accessible via internet- if
              > anybody need I will find the link Last years we get material which
              > proved that fortress was built not at the time of Justinian but
              > earlier â€"V century. Settlement at Mangup plateau with Late Roman
              > material existed even in the and of IV c AD. Material from Lagernaya
              > Balka gives except pottery, amphorae (mostly imported) terra sigilata,
              > coins and animal bones also some fibulae of pure Chernjahov type.
              > There are several catacomb cemetries of 4-9 cc at the outskirts of
              > Mangup. I had excavated some. Two months ago finished works of
              > Sidorenko at cemetery of 6-8 cc near Khodzha-sala.
              > Most important cemetery is Almalyk â€" it gives rich comlices of late 4
              > â€" late 8 cc AD. Ther are some graves with luxury finds of type
              > Untersiebenbrunn. It even not only similar â€" some is identical. Here
              > also fount one cremation grave, two kurgans and horse graves (similar
              > to Djurso cemetery near Anapa â€" which belonged as they think to
              > tetraxites). We found there also some swords (2 short and 2 spatha),
              > many arrowheads of hunnic type and plates of bone for bows.
              > One spath with silber buckles was fount in a separate pit inside
              > chamber grave â€" it was hidden.
              > Two years I have found in a grave of early 6 c. an umbo (shield-boss)
              > of type very close to Horula. Seems like swords was not rare here
              > â€" there are many pieces of it found with a flintstones in sets for
              > ignition, but it was not common to put it inside grave. This fact is
              > surprised a bit because this population was alano-gothic mixture and
              > for alans swords in graves are common.
              > Materials of near 100 graves of Almalyk and some nearest cemetries of
              > this type is now processed by Dr. Magdalena Manczynska (Lodz) and this
              > year I hope will be published as a catalogue in Germany.
              > RGZM taken samples of 30 skeletons of DNA from Almalyk â€" soon we will
              > know results
              > I have many publications in PDF (like Chatyr-Dag, Sacharnaya Golovka
              > (Sovkhoz 10) etc.
              > If anybody need it I can put it on rapidshare. Sorry it is Russian
              > language.
              >
              > The best book about Goths in Ukraine and Crimea is MB Schukin “Gotskij
              > Put’” â€" “Gothish way” â€" in it you can find almost all
              bibliography.
              > http://rapidshare.com/files/85431329/Shukin_Gotish_way.pdf.html
              >
              > I have made a website about Mangup excavations
              > It has English version. http://mangexp.narod.ru/index.html
              >
              >
              > Some photos from Almalyk
              > Glass bowl from chamber grave 2 (5th century)- 3D reconstruction
              > http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/9185/glassmiswh1.jpg
              >
              > Artificially deformed scull from Chamber grave 191 (early 6 cent)
              > http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5479/scull1lm3.jpg
              >
              > Inside a chamber grave
              > http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/1172/ksjuqj4.jpg
              >
              > Gold anthropomorphic plates (V c AD)
              > http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8719/plaquesqw4.jpg
              >
              > Best wishes
              > Serge
              >
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