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The Sun: a female word...

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  • theudimer
    Hails doesn t anybody knows if SUN is a female word in all gemanic languages? Moon and Sun were both Goddess in the pre-christian times.? Sauil,is a word
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 26, 2009
      Hails

      doesn't anybody knows if "SUN" is a female word in all gemanic
      languages? Moon and Sun were both Goddess in the pre-christian times.?

      Sauil,is a word neuter in Gutiska, but it was a religous tranformation
      happened in Gothic People? Why in the rest of germanic peoples "Sun"
      is female? Was sarmatian influence?

      Regards
      Theudimer
    • Ingemar Nordgren
      Since we have all knowledge mostly from Wulfila, with a Greek background, it is not quite sure that it was indeed not feminine among the people. That is all I
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
        Since we have all knowledge mostly from Wulfila, with a Greek
        background, it is not quite sure that it was indeed not feminine among
        the people. That is all I dare suggest as a non linguist.

        Best
        Ingemar


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "theudimer" <theudimer@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hails
        >
        > doesn't anybody knows if "SUN" is a female word in all gemanic
        > languages? Moon and Sun were both Goddess in the pre-christian times.?
        >
        > Sauil,is a word neuter in Gutiska, but it was a religous tranformation
        > happened in Gothic People? Why in the rest of germanic peoples "Sun"
        > is female? Was sarmatian influence?
        >
        > Regards
        > Theudimer
        >
      • Ian Ragsdale
        As a linguist, I dare suggest that grammatical gender has little to do with meaning. Mark Twain famously points out that German speakers must refer to a girl
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
          As a linguist, I dare suggest that grammatical gender has little to do with
          meaning. Mark Twain famously points out that German speakers must refer to
          a girl as "it" and an onion as "she," but I don't think anyone would suggest
          the little bulb has more "feminine" qualities than the little maid. It is
          rather a circumstance of endings.

          Additionally, the PIE root leading to the Germanic words for "sun" was also
          a source for masculine words, such as Gr. helios.

          I am open to the idea that a people could have selectively chosen their
          religious/spiritual words along gender lines, but I did want to put it out
          there that grammatical gender is not necessarily a bearer of meaning.

          IMR





          On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 6:49 AM, Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...>wrote:

          > Since we have all knowledge mostly from Wulfila, with a Greek
          > background, it is not quite sure that it was indeed not feminine among
          > the people. That is all I dare suggest as a non linguist.
          >
          > Best
          > Ingemar
          >
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com <gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com>, "theudimer"
          > <theudimer@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hails
          > >
          > > doesn't anybody knows if "SUN" is a female word in all gemanic
          > > languages? Moon and Sun were both Goddess in the pre-christian times.?
          > >
          > > Sauil,is a word neuter in Gutiska, but it was a religous tranformation
          > > happened in Gothic People? Why in the rest of germanic peoples "Sun"
          > > is female? Was sarmatian influence?
          > >
          > > Regards
          > > Theudimer
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Leonard Blunk
          To my understanding the Sun(Sunna) is feminine and the Moon(Muni) is masculine. This relationship lends itself to the old saying that a successful man is
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
            To my understanding the Sun(Sunna) is feminine and the Moon(Muni) is masculine. This relationship lends itself to the old saying that a successful man is a good reflection on his wife..
                                               DR. ORIENT ROHMER

            --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Ian Ragsdale <delvebelow@...> wrote:


            From: Ian Ragsdale <delvebelow@...>
            Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: The Sun: a female word...
            To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 8:09 AM






            As a linguist, I dare suggest that grammatical gender has little to do with
            meaning. Mark Twain famously points out that German speakers must refer to
            a girl as "it" and an onion as "she," but I don't think anyone would suggest
            the little bulb has more "feminine" qualities than the little maid. It is
            rather a circumstance of endings.

            Additionally, the PIE root leading to the Germanic words for "sun" was also
            a source for masculine words, such as Gr. helios.

            I am open to the idea that a people could have selectively chosen their
            religious/spiritual words along gender lines, but I did want to put it out
            there that grammatical gender is not necessarily a bearer of meaning.

            IMR

            On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 6:49 AM, Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@nordgren. se>wrote:

            > Since we have all knowledge mostly from Wulfila, with a Greek
            > background, it is not quite sure that it was indeed not feminine among
            > the people. That is all I dare suggest as a non linguist.
            >
            > Best
            > Ingemar
            >
            >
            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com <gothic-l%40yahoogr oups.com> , "theudimer"
            > <theudimer@. ..> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hails
            > >
            > > doesn't anybody knows if "SUN" is a female word in all gemanic
            > > languages? Moon and Sun were both Goddess in the pre-christian times.?
            > >
            > > Sauil,is a word neuter in Gutiska, but it was a religous tranformation
            > > happened in Gothic People? Why in the rest of germanic peoples "Sun"
            > > is female? Was sarmatian influence?
            > >
            > > Regards
            > > Theudimer
            > >
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • llama_nom
            There are two words for sun attested in Gothic, both ultimately derived from the same Proto-Indo-European root. (1) sauil (Mk 1:32, Mk 13:24), both times
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
              There are two words for "sun" attested in Gothic, both ultimately
              derived from the same Proto-Indo-European root.

              (1) 'sauil' (Mk 1:32, Mk 13:24), both times in this form of the word.
              In neither instance are there any modifiers to confirm its gender, but
              the form of the word is consistent with its being neuter, and would be
              unusual if it wasn't neuter; it is listed as neuter in Streitberg's
              dictionary. In both examples, the word appears as the subject of a
              verb, 'gasigqan' "to sink" and 'riqizjan' "to grow dark" respectively.
              The former is attested elsewhere with a nominative subject. Cognates
              appear in Old Norse 'sol' (long o, feminine), and Old English 'sigel'
              (neuter).

              (2) 'sunno' (L 4:40, Eph 4:26, Neh 7:3 - Mt 5:45 - Mk 4:4, Mk, 16:2).
              In the first three instances cited here, the word is nominative and
              ends in -o, which can be either feminine or neuter. In Mt 5:45, the
              accusative 'sunnon seina' "his sun" is unambiguously feminine. In the
              remaining two instances, it appears in the dative form 'sunnin', the
              -in ending being normal for a neuter or masculine noun of this type.
              (The corresponding feminine dative ending was -on.) Cognates are
              ubiquitous in Germanic, usually feminine: OE. sunne, OFris. sunne,
              sonne (WFris. sinne, sonne, son, NFris. sen), OS. sunna (MLG., LG.
              sunne), MDu. zonne (Du. zon), OHG. sunno (long o) (MHG. sunne, sun,
              MG. sonne, son, G. sonne), ON. sunna (poet.), Goth. sunno. But
              masculine forms are also found: OE. sunna, = OFris. sonna, OS. sunno,
              OHG. sunna, Goth. sunna. This list is based on that in the Oxford
              English Dictionary entry "sun".

              I'll have leave it to someone more knowledgeable to follow up on the
              cognates outside of Germanic and their genders. The root occurs in
              Celtic, Latin, Greek, Baltic, Indo-Iranian and Albanian.
            • Ernesto Garcia
              There is a very intersting a link: http://www.asatru.es/paginas/Quintanilla%20basilica.htm This is a religous construction made by visigohts in Spain, late in
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
                There is a very intersting a link:

                http://www.asatru.es/paginas/Quintanilla%20basilica.htm

                This is a religous construction made by visigohts in Spain, late in 680-690. In thin time, they were catholic, and draws attention, put  sun and  moon in a church.

                because the Councils of Toledo had warned about the survival of paganism in people, I dont undertand why are there the two symbols par excellence of ancient paganism in a church.

                sun is feminine and  moon, male,to the Goths until such time as the late seventh century, and I think we've got reason to believe that  Wulfilas changed the Bible at his convenience. linguistic science here does not help us in anthropology

                And another question: paganism might not have disappeared among the population goth.   

                Regards





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ingemar Nordgren
                Hi Ernesto, Funny you should post this connection. Two months ago I visited Spain and made some research with aid of among else an female archaeology professor
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
                  Hi Ernesto,

                  Funny you should post this connection. Two months ago I visited Spain
                  and made some research with aid of among else an female archaeology
                  professor in Barcelona. It was mostly in Catalonia but I had use also
                  for more material and hence I also came across among else just these
                  very images and other in this church. Their meaning however, as I
                  understand them, is rather Arian which is, of course, close to
                  pre-Christian.The moon goddess was vital for the Goths in the old
                  religion and the Christian Mary is just another representation of a
                  moon goddess via Isis and Harpokrates in the Serapion cult. The sun in
                  this case is God - remember the birthday of Christ is the birthday of
                  Sol Invictus, the emperor, the birthday of Mithras. The moon in the
                  shape of the lying crescent appears later as sign for the Madonna on
                  the Crescent just in the former Visigothic areas. Hence that picture
                  represents Mary. There are as well a number of rude peacocks who
                  together with the tree of life also represent Mary. I reckon the
                  church was sacred to her. I have been working on an article about a
                  Swedish rune stone that is just being printed and will be published
                  within a week or so, and in that one I have extensively treated the
                  Mary symbolism and specially so in connection with Theoderic the
                  Great. It will appear in the Swedish magazine "Historieforum-Tidskrift
                  för historisk debatt" nr.2, and it is equipped with an extensive
                  English summary. Books and magazines from this publisher may be
                  ordered at www.historieforum.se. Until publishing I can not reveal
                  more about the content but to mention the theme that is very early
                  Christinaity in Sweden.

                  Best
                  Ingemar


                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Ernesto Garcia <theudimer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > There is a very intersting a link:
                  >
                  > http://www.asatru.es/paginas/Quintanilla%20basilica.htm
                  >
                  > This is a religous construction made by visigohts in Spain, late in
                  680-690. In thin time, they were catholic, and draws attention, putÂ
                  sun and moon in a church.
                  >
                  > because the Councils of Toledo had warned about the survival of
                  paganism in people, I dont undertand why are there the two symbols par
                  excellence of ancient paganism in a church.
                  >
                  > sun is feminine and moon, male,to the Goths until such time as the
                  late seventh century, and I think we've got reason to believe thatÂ
                  Wulfilas changed the Bible at his convenience. linguistic science here
                  does not help us in anthropology
                  >
                  > And another question: paganism might not have disappeared among the
                  population goth.  Â
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Ingemar Nordgren
                  Hi again, Ernesto, I have tried to add some photos but on this list nothing seems to work - not with photos and specially not files. Those pics - peacocks and
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
                    Hi again, Ernesto,

                    I have tried to add some photos but on this list nothing seems to work
                    - not with photos and specially not files. Those pics - peacocks and
                    trees of life, sun, moon- however are now on the photosection of
                    Germanic list in the album 'Visigodos'. Have a look.

                    Best
                    Ingemar

                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Ernesto Garcia <theudimer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > There is a very intersting a link:
                    >
                    > http://www.asatru.es/paginas/Quintanilla%20basilica.htm
                    >
                    > This is a religous construction made by visigohts in Spain, late in
                    680-690. In thin time, they were catholic, and draws attention, putÂ
                    sun and moon in a church.
                    >
                    > because the Councils of Toledo had warned about the survival of
                    paganism in people, I dont undertand why are there the two symbols par
                    excellence of ancient paganism in a church.
                    >
                    > sun is feminine and moon, male,to the Goths until such time as the
                    late seventh century, and I think we've got reason to believe thatÂ
                    Wulfilas changed the Bible at his convenience. linguistic science here
                    does not help us in anthropology
                    >
                    > And another question: paganism might not have disappeared among the
                    population goth.  Â
                    >
                    > Regards
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Grsartor@aol.com
                    One explanation of why the sun is feminine in the Germanic tongues is that for the north Europeans the sun is a gentle, nurturing thing. However, it might be
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 29, 2009
                      One explanation of why the sun is feminine in the Germanic tongues is that
                      for the north Europeans the sun is a gentle, nurturing thing. However, it might
                      be helpful to have comment from members whose mother tongue has grammatical
                      genders: do they feel that the gender of a word denoting a non-living thing
                      ever tends to imply qualities associated with male or female sex, or could the
                      two or three genders of French, German, etc just has well have been called
                      "class 1", "class 2" etc? Perhaps the sun's grammatical she-ness for the
                      Goths, the Anglo-Saxons, and others no more demands explanation than why the word
                      begins with S.

                      Gerry T.




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • A.
                      ... that ... Gerry, That is a great point. Another is that the goddess in general may have evolved out of the Dawn Goddess like Ushas and Eostre. Of course
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jan 29, 2009
                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@... wrote:
                        >
                        > One explanation of why the sun is feminine in the Germanic tongues is
                        that
                        > for the north Europeans the sun is a gentle, nurturing thing.


                        Gerry,
                        That is a great point. Another is that the goddess in general may have
                        evolved out of the Dawn Goddess like Ushas and Eostre. Of course that's
                        just speculation on my part.

                        -Aydan
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