Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Expressing age [Was: Hallo hallo!]

Expand Messages
  • Johann von Messer
    Yes, I tried to take all of these things in mind as best as I could. I have Wright s book Grammar of the Gothic Language, and I used many, many websites in
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 20, 2008
      Yes, I tried to take all of these things in mind as best as I could. I
      have Wright's book "Grammar of the Gothic Language," and I used many,
      many websites in trying to express these sayings. Like for the lines
      "I was born..." I get from the Gothic Dictionary at
      http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/egdhome.htm that to say that is to use
      gabaurans with the conjugated form of wairþan. Unfortunately, no one
      has gotten to me on the other lines yet, but I've serious doubt that
      most if not all of them are correct. I tried using your very first
      example in the lines you bring into question, as well as your third
      with the forming of compound words using wintrus.

      Would it be just so much more simple in the sense of saying for us and
      in comparing to modern languages to use haban as in your second
      example? In my certain case, the inflection rules you specified do not
      seem to apply other than placing them in the correct case.

      But thank you so much for the help and the examples. It's so much
      better to hear it from another person's perspective than something
      written so many years ago.

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Rydwlf <mitsuhippon@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Johann,
      >
      > As far as I know the extant forms used to express age in Wulfila
      bible follow these three structures:
      >
      > - 'wisan' ("to be") + 'jere' + numeral (Genitive).
      > As in Mark 5:42: 'was auk jere twalibe'.
      > "for she was twelve years old".
      > Or in Luke 3:23: 'jah silba was Iesus swe jere þrije tigiwe uf
      gakunþai'.
      > "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age".
      > In this sentence 'þrije' is Masc. Gen. and 'tigiwe' is Gen. Pl.
      > These sentences mean literally "for she was of twelve years" and
      "and Jesus himself began to be about of thirty
      >
      > - haban ("to have") + numeral (Accusative) + 'jere'.
      > As in John, 8:57: 'fimf tiguns jere nauh ni habais'.
      > "you're not yet fifty years old" .
      >
      > - wisan + numeral (Nom.) + 'wintrus' (Nominative, "winter").
      > Luke 2:42: 'jah biþe warþ twalibwintrus'
      > "and when he was twelve years old" (lit. "twelve winters").
      > This is really a compound; instead of 'twalif', 'twalib' is used(cf.
      'twalibim', Dative).
      >
      > It is good to bear in mind the special rules that apply to the
      declination of numerals. 1, 2 and 3 are declinable in all cases and
      genders. 4 - 15 usually remain uninflected, but in some parts of the
      text they appear inflected (following i-declension with Dat. in -im
      and Gen. in -e). For tens, 20-90, the structure is 'numeral from 2 to
      9' + 'tigjus' (which is Nom. Pl. of 'tigus', "decade"). If you have to
      decline a ten, you decline 'tigus' in the needed case ('tuguns' is
      Acc. Pl. and 'tigiwe' is Gen. Pl.) according to the verb (wisan or
      haban). The first numeral is declined in Masc. and the same case as
      'tigus' (if 2 or 3, since 4 - 9 are undeclinable), as deducted from
      Luke 3:23 (I don't know if other rules apply).
      >
      > I've probably missed one or two things but I think this summary can
      be helpful. Hope so!
      >
      > Rydwlf
      >
      >
      >
      > --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Johann von Messer <furry_von_messer@...> wrote:
      >
      > > From: Johann von Messer <furry_von_messer@...>
      > > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Hallo hallo!
      > > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 5:58 PM
      > > Wow... I didn't think the -lif suffix was used in other
      > > numbers other
      > > than eleven and twelve (and maybe thirteen.)
      > >
      > > And dative plural for jer? I thought it'd be some
      > > really odd
      > > grammatical way of saying it. Something like 'I have X
      > > years' or the
      > > like. But thank you for this! I've something to work
      > > off of now. :D
      > >
      > > How about the rest of the stuff?
      > >
      > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA
      > > <duke.co@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > ik im ahtauliff jeram....i am 18 years.....ik im
      > > niunliff jeram...i
      > > am nineteen years old...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe,
      > > send a blank email to
      > > <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Johann von Messer
      One thing I want to add that I found in my book by William H. Bennett is ...du usqiman all barne und twa jere habando from the Gospel of Matthew I believe
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 21, 2008
        One thing I want to add that I found in my book by William H. Bennett
        is "...du usqiman all barne und twa jere habando" from the Gospel of
        Matthew I believe (having trouble finding it in any of my Gothic Bible
        sites, yet here it is in my book...). To me this looks like "... to
        kill all of children up to two of years having." This is why I asked
        earlier if it was possible to express age with "I have X (of) years.

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Rydwlf <mitsuhippon@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Johann,
        >
        > As far as I know the extant forms used to express age in Wulfila
        bible follow these three structures:
        >
        > - 'wisan' ("to be") + 'jere' + numeral (Genitive).
        > As in Mark 5:42: 'was auk jere twalibe'.
        > "for she was twelve years old".
        > Or in Luke 3:23: 'jah silba was Iesus swe jere þrije tigiwe uf
        gakunþai'.
        > "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age".
        > In this sentence 'þrije' is Masc. Gen. and 'tigiwe' is Gen. Pl.
        > These sentences mean literally "for she was of twelve years" and
        "and Jesus himself began to be about of thirty
        >
        > - haban ("to have") + numeral (Accusative) + 'jere'.
        > As in John, 8:57: 'fimf tiguns jere nauh ni habais'.
        > "you're not yet fifty years old" .
        >
        > - wisan + numeral (Nom.) + 'wintrus' (Nominative, "winter").
        > Luke 2:42: 'jah biþe warþ twalibwintrus'
        > "and when he was twelve years old" (lit. "twelve winters").
        > This is really a compound; instead of 'twalif', 'twalib' is used(cf.
        'twalibim', Dative).
        >
        > It is good to bear in mind the special rules that apply to the
        declination of numerals. 1, 2 and 3 are declinable in all cases and
        genders. 4 - 15 usually remain uninflected, but in some parts of the
        text they appear inflected (following i-declension with Dat. in -im
        and Gen. in -e). For tens, 20-90, the structure is 'numeral from 2 to
        9' + 'tigjus' (which is Nom. Pl. of 'tigus', "decade"). If you have to
        decline a ten, you decline 'tigus' in the needed case ('tuguns' is
        Acc. Pl. and 'tigiwe' is Gen. Pl.) according to the verb (wisan or
        haban). The first numeral is declined in Masc. and the same case as
        'tigus' (if 2 or 3, since 4 - 9 are undeclinable), as deducted from
        Luke 3:23 (I don't know if other rules apply).
        >
        > I've probably missed one or two things but I think this summary can
        be helpful. Hope so!
        >
        > Rydwlf
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Johann von Messer <furry_von_messer@...> wrote:
        >
        > > From: Johann von Messer <furry_von_messer@...>
        > > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Hallo hallo!
        > > To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 5:58 PM
        > > Wow... I didn't think the -lif suffix was used in other
        > > numbers other
        > > than eleven and twelve (and maybe thirteen.)
        > >
        > > And dative plural for jer? I thought it'd be some
        > > really odd
        > > grammatical way of saying it. Something like 'I have X
        > > years' or the
        > > like. But thank you for this! I've something to work
        > > off of now. :D
        > >
        > > How about the rest of the stuff?
        > >
        > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA
        > > <duke.co@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > ik im ahtauliff jeram....i am 18 years.....ik im
        > > niunliff jeram...i
        > > am nineteen years old...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe,
        > > send a blank email to
        > > <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Johann von Messer
        Also, can someone please explain to me the very weird (to me) placements of definite articles? In one of my books is the dedication Qenai meinai þizai
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 24, 2008
          Also, can someone please explain to me the very weird (to me)
          placements of definite articles? In one of my books is the dedication
          "Qenai meinai þizai liuboston" which is obviously "To my dearest
          wife." But that is the definite article doing in there, yet no
          preposition? I have seen this is a few other places such as

          Ahma sa weiha - The Holy Spirit
          Hardeis sa goða - the good shepherd
          "...ibai aufto distairai wein þata niujo þans balgins." - "...lest
          perchance the new wine burst the bottles."


          There's also this that I have trouble grasping from Mark 4:5
          "anþaruþþan gadraus ana stainahamma, þarei ni haibada airþa managa,
          jah suns urrann in þizei ni haibada diupaizos airþos"
          "And another fell on a stony place, where there was not much soil, and
          soon rose up because of not having depth of earth."
          (("and another fell on stony place, where not had soil much, and soon
          rose up because not had deep of soil")) Why is airþa in the genitive
          at the end? Is it because of the phrase 'in þizei?' And if so, why
          does 'in' make the article genitive?

          Also, I'm thinking about translating a Christmas song or two, just for
          the hell of it. Should I do the translated, traditional English
          version of Silent Night or the original 1816 German lyrics?
        • Ingemar Nordgren
          Hi Johann! It is as far I can see not a question of definite article but just a clarification of what yoy mean with the shepher, which shepherd. Hardeis is
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 25, 2008
            Hi Johann!

            It is as far I can see not a question of definite article but just a
            clarification of what yoy mean with the shepher, which shepherd.

            Hardeis is like Sw. herden already in definite form (herde,-n) since
            it comes in the end, not in front. The good, den gode tells just
            which shepherd, herde. In Sw. accordingly 'herden-den gode'or 'den
            gode herden', but indefinite it is 'en god herde', 'a good shepherd'.
            This is a great similarity between Gothic and Scandinavian languages.

            From a non linguist
            Ingemar


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Johann von Messer"
            <furry_von_messer@...> wrote:
            >
            > Also, can someone please explain to me the very weird (to me)
            > placements of definite articles? In one of my books is the
            dedication
            > "Qenai meinai þizai liuboston" which is obviously "To my dearest
            > wife." But that is the definite article doing in there, yet no
            > preposition? I have seen this is a few other places such as
            >
            > Ahma sa weiha - The Holy Spirit
            > Hardeis sa goða - the good shepherd
            > "...ibai aufto distairai wein þata niujo þans balgins." - "...lest
            > perchance the new wine burst the bottles."
            >
            >
            > There's also this that I have trouble grasping from Mark 4:5
            > "anþaruþþan gadraus ana stainahamma, þarei ni haibada airþa managa,
            > jah suns urrann in þizei ni haibada diupaizos airþos"
            > "And another fell on a stony place, where there was not much soil,
            and
            > soon rose up because of not having depth of earth."
            > (("and another fell on stony place, where not had soil much, and
            soon
            > rose up because not had deep of soil")) Why is airþa in the genitive
            > at the end? Is it because of the phrase 'in þizei?' And if so, why
            > does 'in' make the article genitive?
            >
            > Also, I'm thinking about translating a Christmas song or two, just
            for
            > the hell of it. Should I do the translated, traditional English
            > version of Silent Night or the original 1816 German lyrics?
            >
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.