Fw: [gothic-l] Re: More about numbers
with respect to the final -e on numerals (e.g., seuene) in Crimean Gothic, I would submit a distant comparison of that phenomenon with current dialect in many towns in Oberbayern, Germany, including working-class Muenchen: Finfi, sechsi, siebni, achti, etc.
As to ten being "thiine", my vote goes to the glottal stop; some precedent for this exists in modern Danish, where ten is "ti:", as opposed to Swedish "tio".
Arthur A. Jones
--- On Mon, 6/9/08, Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
From: Fredrik <gadrauhts@...>
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: More about numbers
Date: Monday, June 9, 2008, 3:32 AM
--- In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@... > wrote:
> --- In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@> wrote:
> > In crimean they count with ite as one.
> > What is that? Is it from ita = it?
> Busbecq actually cites it as 'ita'. Yes, I think probably is from
> personal pronoun spelt the same in Biblical Gothic, unless perhaps
> it's a contraction from the numeral 'ainata'. This could well have
> happened if it was used in unstressed positions, e.g. if it came to
> used as an indefinite article as in many other Germanic languages.
Yes that seems to a reasonable explanation. When unstressed would it
be enata then?
> > According to zompist the word for one is ene, what's the evidence
> > that? http://zompist. com/euro. htm#ie
> Must be a mistake, or somebody tried to reconstruct the masculine
> of 1 without realising that 2 and 3 are also neuter.
OK, but when used with masculine nouns it should be used. Shouldn't a
masculine be just en or ens if -s suffix is kept?
> > Why do the numbers in crimean gothic end with -e?
> > e.g. sevene, nyne and thiine?
> I don't know. Maybe the final -e in these numbers arose by analogy
> with athe.
> > The e in athe is obvious coz it's a weakened 'au' I presume.
> I think so. Compare sune (BG sunno), mine (BG mena), etc.
> > Should th in crimean be read as t?
> > And what about ii in thiine. Is that a long i or two syllables?
> > if so I guess it should have been a short e in the first syllable
> > a schwa in the second.
> I don't know about the 'ii'. Maybe [i:]? Grønvik thought that
It was a greek guy who told Busbecq all these words and he could have
some greek influence on pronunciation (as one website suggests), for
instance hails should have been hel (or el) [(h)e:l] but he said it
as iel coz he didn't use long vowels in his greek dialect. And his
short e was broken into ie. If that's correct words such as thiine,
breen etc. shouldn't have any long vowel.
> initial /t/ and /d/ of Germanic had fallen together in Crimean
> as a voiceless stop [t], which Busbeque spells variously 't'
> (similarly /b/ and /p/ > [p], as in 'plut'). But the forms 'goltz'
> and 'statz' made him think that [þ] probably did still exist in
> Crimean Gothic. Busbecq may not have represented it very accurately
> because there was no such sound in his own language.
B seems to become voiceless before l (plut) but kept before some
other (bruder, bars etc.) Is it the same with g (e.g. goltz), the
word for cry was written as eriten but shouldn't this be griten, with
I think it's confusing how Busbecq uses the spelling th and tz. If th
is [t] and tz [T] then I wonder why the definite article the and tho
as initla [t] and the pronoun [T]. Further could it be presumed that
[T] was kept initlally before vowel and final (e.g. goltz, statz).
I realize that this is now off topic and should probably be discussed
under crimean gothic instead, sorry for that ;)
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