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Fw: [gothic-l] Re: More about numbers

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  • Arthur Jones
      Hails, frijundeis,   with respect to the final -e on numerals (e.g., seuene) in Crimean Gothic, I would submit a distant comparison of that
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 9, 2008
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      Hails, frijundeis,
      with respect to the final -e on numerals (e.g., seuene) in Crimean Gothic, I would submit a distant comparison of that phenomenon with current dialect in many towns in Oberbayern, Germany, including working-class Muenchen: Finfi, sechsi, siebni, achti, etc.
      As to ten being "thiine", my vote goes to the glottal stop; some precedent for this exists in modern Danish, where ten is "ti:", as opposed to Swedish "tio".

      Arthur A. Jones

      --- On Mon, 6/9/08, Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote:

      From: Fredrik <gadrauhts@...>
      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: More about numbers
      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, June 9, 2008, 3:32 AM

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@... > wrote:
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@> wrote:
      > >
      > > In crimean they count with ite as one.
      > > What is that? Is it from ita = it?
      > Busbecq actually cites it as 'ita'. Yes, I think probably is from
      > personal pronoun spelt the same in Biblical Gothic, unless perhaps
      > it's a contraction from the numeral 'ainata'. This could well have
      > happened if it was used in unstressed positions, e.g. if it came to
      > used as an indefinite article as in many other Germanic languages.
      Yes that seems to a reasonable explanation. When unstressed would it
      be enata then?

      > >
      > > According to zompist the word for one is ene, what's the evidence
      > > that? http://zompist. com/euro. htm#ie
      > Must be a mistake, or somebody tried to reconstruct the masculine
      > of 1 without realising that 2 and 3 are also neuter.
      OK, but when used with masculine nouns it should be used. Shouldn't a
      masculine be just en or ens if -s suffix is kept?

      > >
      > > Why do the numbers in crimean gothic end with -e?
      > > e.g. sevene, nyne and thiine?
      > I don't know. Maybe the final -e in these numbers arose by analogy
      > with athe.
      > >
      > > The e in athe is obvious coz it's a weakened 'au' I presume.
      > I think so. Compare sune (BG sunno), mine (BG mena), etc.
      > >
      > > Should th in crimean be read as t?
      > >
      > > And what about ii in thiine. Is that a long i or two syllables?
      > > if so I guess it should have been a short e in the first syllable
      > > a schwa in the second.
      > >
      > I don't know about the 'ii'. Maybe [i:]? Grønvik thought that

      It was a greek guy who told Busbecq all these words and he could have
      some greek influence on pronunciation (as one website suggests), for
      instance hails should have been hel (or el) [(h)e:l] but he said it
      as iel coz he didn't use long vowels in his greek dialect. And his
      short e was broken into ie. If that's correct words such as thiine,
      breen etc. shouldn't have any long vowel.

      > initial /t/ and /d/ of Germanic had fallen together in Crimean
      > as a voiceless stop [t], which Busbeque spells variously 't'
      and 'th'
      > (similarly /b/ and /p/ > [p], as in 'plut'). But the forms 'goltz'
      > and 'statz' made him think that [þ] probably did still exist in
      > Crimean Gothic. Busbecq may not have represented it very accurately
      > because there was no such sound in his own language.
      B seems to become voiceless before l (plut) but kept before some
      other (bruder, bars etc.) Is it the same with g (e.g. goltz), the
      word for cry was written as eriten but shouldn't this be griten, with
      g remaining?

      I think it's confusing how Busbecq uses the spelling th and tz. If th
      is [t] and tz [T] then I wonder why the definite article the and tho
      as initla [t] and the pronoun [T]. Further could it be presumed that
      [T] was kept initlally before vowel and final (e.g. goltz, statz).

      I realize that this is now off topic and should probably be discussed
      under crimean gothic instead, sorry for that ;)

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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