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  • Fredrik
    In crimean they count with ite as one. What is that? Is it from ita = it? According to zompist the word for one is ene, what s the evidence of that?
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 5, 2008
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      In crimean they count with ite as one.
      What is that? Is it from ita = it?

      According to zompist the word for one is ene, what's the evidence of
      that? http://zompist.com/euro.htm#ie

      Why do the numbers in crimean gothic end with -e?
      e.g. sevene, nyne and thiine?

      The e in athe is obvious coz it's a weakened 'au' I presume.

      Should th in crimean be read as t?

      And what about ii in thiine. Is that a long i or two syllables?
      if so I guess it should have been a short e in the first syllable and
      a schwa in the second.
    • llama_nom
      ... Busbecq actually cites it as ita . Yes, I think probably is from the personal pronoun spelt the same in Biblical Gothic, unless perhaps it s a contraction
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 5, 2008
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
        >
        > In crimean they count with ite as one.
        > What is that? Is it from ita = it?

        Busbecq actually cites it as 'ita'. Yes, I think probably is from the
        personal pronoun spelt the same in Biblical Gothic, unless perhaps
        it's a contraction from the numeral 'ainata'. This could well have
        happened if it was used in unstressed positions, e.g. if it came to be
        used as an indefinite article as in many other Germanic languages.

        >
        > According to zompist the word for one is ene, what's the evidence of
        > that? http://zompist.com/euro.htm#ie

        Must be a mistake, or somebody tried to reconstruct the masculine form
        of 1 without realising that 2 and 3 are also neuter.

        >
        > Why do the numbers in crimean gothic end with -e?
        > e.g. sevene, nyne and thiine?

        I don't know. Maybe the final -e in these numbers arose by analogy
        with athe.

        >
        > The e in athe is obvious coz it's a weakened 'au' I presume.


        I think so. Compare sune (BG sunno), mine (BG mena), etc.

        >
        > Should th in crimean be read as t?
        >
        > And what about ii in thiine. Is that a long i or two syllables?
        > if so I guess it should have been a short e in the first syllable and
        > a schwa in the second.
        >

        I don't know about the 'ii'. Maybe [i:]? Grønvik thought that
        initial /t/ and /d/ of Germanic had fallen together in Crimean Gothic
        as a voiceless stop [t], which Busbeque spells variously 't' and 'th'
        (similarly /b/ and /p/ > [p], as in 'plut'). But the forms 'goltz'
        and 'statz' made him think that [þ] probably did still exist in
        Crimean Gothic. Busbecq may not have represented it very accurately
        because there was no such sound in his own language.
      • Fredrik
        ... the ... be ... Yes that seems to a reasonable explanation. When unstressed would it be enata then? ... of ... form ... OK, but when used with masculine
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 9, 2008
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@> wrote:
          > >
          > > In crimean they count with ite as one.
          > > What is that? Is it from ita = it?
          >
          > Busbecq actually cites it as 'ita'. Yes, I think probably is from
          the
          > personal pronoun spelt the same in Biblical Gothic, unless perhaps
          > it's a contraction from the numeral 'ainata'. This could well have
          > happened if it was used in unstressed positions, e.g. if it came to
          be
          > used as an indefinite article as in many other Germanic languages.
          >
          Yes that seems to a reasonable explanation. When unstressed would it
          be enata then?

          > >
          > > According to zompist the word for one is ene, what's the evidence
          of
          > > that? http://zompist.com/euro.htm#ie
          >
          > Must be a mistake, or somebody tried to reconstruct the masculine
          form
          > of 1 without realising that 2 and 3 are also neuter.
          >
          OK, but when used with masculine nouns it should be used. Shouldn't a
          masculine be just en or ens if -s suffix is kept?

          > >
          > > Why do the numbers in crimean gothic end with -e?
          > > e.g. sevene, nyne and thiine?
          >
          > I don't know. Maybe the final -e in these numbers arose by analogy
          > with athe.
          >
          > >
          > > The e in athe is obvious coz it's a weakened 'au' I presume.
          >
          >
          > I think so. Compare sune (BG sunno), mine (BG mena), etc.
          >
          > >
          > > Should th in crimean be read as t?
          > >
          > > And what about ii in thiine. Is that a long i or two syllables?
          > > if so I guess it should have been a short e in the first syllable
          and
          > > a schwa in the second.
          > >
          >
          > I don't know about the 'ii'. Maybe [i:]? Grønvik thought that

          It was a greek guy who told Busbecq all these words and he could have
          some greek influence on pronunciation (as one website suggests), for
          instance hails should have been hel (or el) [(h)e:l] but he said it
          as iel coz he didn't use long vowels in his greek dialect. And his
          short e was broken into ie. If that's correct words such as thiine,
          breen etc. shouldn't have any long vowel.

          > initial /t/ and /d/ of Germanic had fallen together in Crimean
          Gothic
          > as a voiceless stop [t], which Busbeque spells variously 't'
          and 'th'
          > (similarly /b/ and /p/ > [p], as in 'plut'). But the forms 'goltz'
          > and 'statz' made him think that [þ] probably did still exist in
          > Crimean Gothic. Busbecq may not have represented it very accurately
          > because there was no such sound in his own language.
          >
          B seems to become voiceless before l (plut) but kept before some
          other (bruder, bars etc.) Is it the same with g (e.g. goltz), the
          word for cry was written as eriten but shouldn't this be griten, with
          g remaining?

          I think it's confusing how Busbecq uses the spelling th and tz. If th
          is [t] and tz [T] then I wonder why the definite article the and tho
          as initla [t] and the pronoun [T]. Further could it be presumed that
          [T] was kept initlally before vowel and final (e.g. goltz, statz).

          I realize that this is now off topic and should probably be discussed
          under crimean gothic instead, sorry for that ;)
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