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Re: Numbers and counting

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  • llama_nom
    ... Agreed. Without any direct evidence from the fragments of Biblical Gothic, the Crimean example seems like a good one to follow. ... I think here, Gothic
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 3, 2008
      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "se3k4life101" <se3k4life101@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > How would you count numbers if you were just counting?
      > >
      > > Ains, twai, threis, fidwor, etc... ? Or would you just use the neuter:
      > > ain, twa, thrija, fidwor...?
      > >
      >
      > I would use the neuter forms. I don't know if that is more correct than
      > using masculine or feminine but since it seems as crimean gothic used
      > neuter I think that's the better choice.


      Agreed. Without any direct evidence from the fragments of Biblical
      Gothic, the Crimean example seems like a good one to follow.


      > > Likewise, what if you were counting objects, like in english "object
      > > one, object two, object three..."? Would it agree with the noun? I
      > > feel like the numbers should be in some kind of singular form rather
      > > than as plural adjectives in this context.
      > >
      > I don't know this either and I guess it's not very common to count like
      > this. My guess would be that numbers agree with noun.
      > E.g. waurd ain, waurd twa, waurd thrija ktl.


      I think here, Gothic would probably use ordinal numbers (fruma, anþar,
      þridja, ?*fidworþa - first, second, third, fourth). This is the
      practice used for the names of Paul's epistles:

      Du Teimauþaiau ·a· dustodeiþ.
      Du Teimauþaiau frumei dustodeiþ.
      "The First [Letter] to Timothy begins." (I Timothy begins.)

      Du Kaurinþaium anþara dustodeiþ.
      "The Second Letter to the Corinthians begins." (II Corinthians begins.)

      Du Kaurinþium ·a· ustauh. Du Kaurinþium frume[i] melida ist us
      Filippai, swe qeþun sumai; iþ mais þugkeiþ bi silbins apaustaulaus
      insahtai melida wisan us Asiai.
      "The 1st [Letter] to the Corinthians ends. The First [Letter] to the
      Corinthians is written from Philipae, according to some; but it seems
      rather according to the apostle's own statement to have been written
      from Asia."
    • Fredrik
      ... anþar, ... begins.) ... seems ... So how it is said is in reallity: first object, second object, third object etc. and not object one, object two, object
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 5, 2008
        > I think here, Gothic would probably use ordinal numbers (fruma,
        anþar,
        > þridja, ?*fidworþa - first, second, third, fourth). This is the
        > practice used for the names of Paul's epistles:
        >
        > Du Teimauþaiau ·a· dustodeiþ.
        > Du Teimauþaiau frumei dustodeiþ.
        > "The First [Letter] to Timothy begins." (I Timothy begins.)
        >
        > Du Kaurinþaium anþara dustodeiþ.
        > "The Second Letter to the Corinthians begins." (II Corinthians
        begins.)
        >
        > Du Kaurinþium ·a· ustauh. Du Kaurinþium frume[i] melida ist us
        > Filippai, swe qeþun sumai; iþ mais þugkeiþ bi silbins apaustaulaus
        > insahtai melida wisan us Asiai.
        > "The 1st [Letter] to the Corinthians ends. The First [Letter] to the
        > Corinthians is written from Philipae, according to some; but it
        seems
        > rather according to the apostle's own statement to have been written
        > from Asia."
        >
        So how it is said is in reallity: first object, second object, third
        object etc. and not object one, object two, object three etc, right?
        This seems to me to be a more natural way of coounting object as well.
        And since it obviously is attested that seems to be the correct way.
      • Fredrik
        In crimean they count with ite as one. What is that? Is it from ita = it? According to zompist the word for one is ene, what s the evidence of that?
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 5, 2008
          In crimean they count with ite as one.
          What is that? Is it from ita = it?

          According to zompist the word for one is ene, what's the evidence of
          that? http://zompist.com/euro.htm#ie

          Why do the numbers in crimean gothic end with -e?
          e.g. sevene, nyne and thiine?

          The e in athe is obvious coz it's a weakened 'au' I presume.

          Should th in crimean be read as t?

          And what about ii in thiine. Is that a long i or two syllables?
          if so I guess it should have been a short e in the first syllable and
          a schwa in the second.
        • llama_nom
          ... Busbecq actually cites it as ita . Yes, I think probably is from the personal pronoun spelt the same in Biblical Gothic, unless perhaps it s a contraction
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 5, 2008
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
            >
            > In crimean they count with ite as one.
            > What is that? Is it from ita = it?

            Busbecq actually cites it as 'ita'. Yes, I think probably is from the
            personal pronoun spelt the same in Biblical Gothic, unless perhaps
            it's a contraction from the numeral 'ainata'. This could well have
            happened if it was used in unstressed positions, e.g. if it came to be
            used as an indefinite article as in many other Germanic languages.

            >
            > According to zompist the word for one is ene, what's the evidence of
            > that? http://zompist.com/euro.htm#ie

            Must be a mistake, or somebody tried to reconstruct the masculine form
            of 1 without realising that 2 and 3 are also neuter.

            >
            > Why do the numbers in crimean gothic end with -e?
            > e.g. sevene, nyne and thiine?

            I don't know. Maybe the final -e in these numbers arose by analogy
            with athe.

            >
            > The e in athe is obvious coz it's a weakened 'au' I presume.


            I think so. Compare sune (BG sunno), mine (BG mena), etc.

            >
            > Should th in crimean be read as t?
            >
            > And what about ii in thiine. Is that a long i or two syllables?
            > if so I guess it should have been a short e in the first syllable and
            > a schwa in the second.
            >

            I don't know about the 'ii'. Maybe [i:]? Grønvik thought that
            initial /t/ and /d/ of Germanic had fallen together in Crimean Gothic
            as a voiceless stop [t], which Busbeque spells variously 't' and 'th'
            (similarly /b/ and /p/ > [p], as in 'plut'). But the forms 'goltz'
            and 'statz' made him think that [þ] probably did still exist in
            Crimean Gothic. Busbecq may not have represented it very accurately
            because there was no such sound in his own language.
          • Fredrik
            ... the ... be ... Yes that seems to a reasonable explanation. When unstressed would it be enata then? ... of ... form ... OK, but when used with masculine
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 9, 2008
              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@> wrote:
              > >
              > > In crimean they count with ite as one.
              > > What is that? Is it from ita = it?
              >
              > Busbecq actually cites it as 'ita'. Yes, I think probably is from
              the
              > personal pronoun spelt the same in Biblical Gothic, unless perhaps
              > it's a contraction from the numeral 'ainata'. This could well have
              > happened if it was used in unstressed positions, e.g. if it came to
              be
              > used as an indefinite article as in many other Germanic languages.
              >
              Yes that seems to a reasonable explanation. When unstressed would it
              be enata then?

              > >
              > > According to zompist the word for one is ene, what's the evidence
              of
              > > that? http://zompist.com/euro.htm#ie
              >
              > Must be a mistake, or somebody tried to reconstruct the masculine
              form
              > of 1 without realising that 2 and 3 are also neuter.
              >
              OK, but when used with masculine nouns it should be used. Shouldn't a
              masculine be just en or ens if -s suffix is kept?

              > >
              > > Why do the numbers in crimean gothic end with -e?
              > > e.g. sevene, nyne and thiine?
              >
              > I don't know. Maybe the final -e in these numbers arose by analogy
              > with athe.
              >
              > >
              > > The e in athe is obvious coz it's a weakened 'au' I presume.
              >
              >
              > I think so. Compare sune (BG sunno), mine (BG mena), etc.
              >
              > >
              > > Should th in crimean be read as t?
              > >
              > > And what about ii in thiine. Is that a long i or two syllables?
              > > if so I guess it should have been a short e in the first syllable
              and
              > > a schwa in the second.
              > >
              >
              > I don't know about the 'ii'. Maybe [i:]? Grønvik thought that

              It was a greek guy who told Busbecq all these words and he could have
              some greek influence on pronunciation (as one website suggests), for
              instance hails should have been hel (or el) [(h)e:l] but he said it
              as iel coz he didn't use long vowels in his greek dialect. And his
              short e was broken into ie. If that's correct words such as thiine,
              breen etc. shouldn't have any long vowel.

              > initial /t/ and /d/ of Germanic had fallen together in Crimean
              Gothic
              > as a voiceless stop [t], which Busbeque spells variously 't'
              and 'th'
              > (similarly /b/ and /p/ > [p], as in 'plut'). But the forms 'goltz'
              > and 'statz' made him think that [þ] probably did still exist in
              > Crimean Gothic. Busbecq may not have represented it very accurately
              > because there was no such sound in his own language.
              >
              B seems to become voiceless before l (plut) but kept before some
              other (bruder, bars etc.) Is it the same with g (e.g. goltz), the
              word for cry was written as eriten but shouldn't this be griten, with
              g remaining?

              I think it's confusing how Busbecq uses the spelling th and tz. If th
              is [t] and tz [T] then I wonder why the definite article the and tho
              as initla [t] and the pronoun [T]. Further could it be presumed that
              [T] was kept initlally before vowel and final (e.g. goltz, statz).

              I realize that this is now off topic and should probably be discussed
              under crimean gothic instead, sorry for that ;)
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