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Re: crimean gothic

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  • llama_nom
    ... gothic spoken in italy and not spain? if so, should it be considered a specific ostrogothic change as it also occures in crimean gothic? I don t know.
    Message 1 of 8 , May 30, 2008
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
      >

      > Are these changes [ [e:] > [i:] and [o] > [u:] ] only valid for the
      gothic spoken in italy and not spain? if so, should it be considered a
      specific ostrogothic change as it also occures in crimean gothic?

      I don't know. That's an interesting question. There might be some
      clues in personal names recorded by Greek and Roman writers, and in
      loanwords in Spanish, Catalan, Portuguese and Provencal.

      > other changes are diphthongs becoming monophthongs.
      biblical ai corresponds to crimean e (long probably?), which is
      common with italian ostrogothic (?). But what about biblical au. In
      italian gothic it is o (long here too?), like Oderit from Audareths.
      Did crimean have long o here too, like broe from brauth?

      It certainly looks that way. As well as Broe, we have Hoef (haubiþ)
      and Oeghene (augono). The initial letter in Iel (háils) may betray
      Greek influence [
      http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/gotol-10.html#Got10_GP46
      ], in which case this could be an example of [e:] for PGmc. [ai].

      > [...] but it seems to be as crimean has i where pgmc had it
      and e where pgmc had it. Doesn't it?

      Yes, as far as I can tell. Especially interesting regarding short [o],
      is the word Schuos (probably a printing mistake for Schnos), since
      Busbeque didn't recognise this as a Germanic word, and yet it seems to
      show lowering of PGmc. [u] to [o] before a central vowel, as tended to
      happen in North and West Germanic, but not Biblical Gothic: snusô >
      Crim. Got. *schnos, BGot. *snuza, OE snoru, ON snør.

      > Is it only Busbeque's writings that makes the source to crimean
      gothic or is there any other?

      Yes, sadly that's all we have. Unless anything else comes to light in
      the future...

      > How much about CG can be stated as fact
      by analyzing these sources? About grammar and phonology.
      If I understand correct most people think there's a lot of typos and
      other errors in his writings and therefor not totaly reliable.

      That's right. In fact, it's worse than that, because Busbeque's
      informants may not have been completely reliable either.

      Alter erat procerior, toto ore ingenuam quandam simplicitatem
      praeferens, ut Flander videretur aut Batavus: alter erat brevior,
      compactiore corpore, colore fusco, ortu et sermone Graecus, sed qui
      frequenti commercio non contemnendum eius linguae usum haberet, nam
      superior vicinitate, et frequenti Graecorum consuetudine sic eorum
      sermonem imbiberat, ut popularis sui esset oblitus, interrogatus de
      natura et moribus illorum populorum, congruentia respondebat.

      One of them was taller, displaying in his overall appearance a certain
      native simplicity, so that he looked like a Fleming or Dutchman: the
      other was shorted, with a stouter body, a swarthy color, Greek in
      origin and speech, but who with frequent interaction had a not
      disrespectable command of that language; for the first one on account
      of proximity and frequent dealings with Greeks had so taken in their
      speech as to have forgotten that of his own people; though when asked
      about the nature and customs of those peoples, he responded sensibly.

      http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/gotol-10.html#Got10_GP46
      http://www.gotica.de/taurica.html
    • Fredrik
      I think it s a little fuzzy about pronunciation of former b, d and g initially in crimean gothic. Some times they seem to remain but other times they seem to
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 13 1:42 PM
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        I think it's a little fuzzy about pronunciation of former b, d and g
        initially in crimean gothic.

        Some times they seem to remain but other times they seem to become
        unvoiced.

        Since it seems to be as aspiration vanished from crimean gothic as in
        ano instead of hano, I guess b,d,g also were unaspirated.
        And because of that they could have been pronounced very similar to
        the unvoiced p,t,k in some positions and therefor mistaken for such
        consonants by Busbecq.

        If this is so there's no need for any explanation why inital b
        remains befor consonant in bruder but not in plut. The reason could
        just be that it sounds more as p than b befor l to some one who is
        not used to unaspirated b,d,g.

        And hence would I suppose it would be better to keep b,d,g in writing
        even when Busbecq has written otherwise.
        plut should then be blut and kriten (busbecq's eriten or criten)
        which probably had a long i should be greiten (using biblical ei for
        long i).
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