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Re: construction of gothic scandinavian urheimat

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  • Ingemar Nordgren
    Hi, I can as well suggest you read my opus where I try to find out the possible connections between Scandinavia, Wielbark and Chernyakov-Sintana de Mures. The
    Message 1 of 9 , May 7, 2008
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      Hi,

      I can as well suggest you read my opus where I try to find out the
      possible connections between Scandinavia, Wielbark and
      Chernyakov-Sintana de Mures. The Goths consisted of many groups of
      different origin from time to time, but still they had a common
      tradition/ethnic glue which I think was originally of religious
      character. Read 'The Well Spring of the Goths' available on Amazon and
      many other sites.

      Best
      Ingemar

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi,
      > I can recommed Anders Kaliff's book Gothis connections
      >
      > http://www.stavgard.com/romaniron/goterna_/gothic/default.htm
      >
      > Tore
      >
      > 2 maj 2008 kl. 11.51 skrev Michal Cigan:
      >
      > > Hi,
      > > some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board
      > > treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths
      > > did not came from Scandinavia, but rather they - or their
      > > group identity - were established only later and on another place;
      > > from germanic tribes living beside roman limes (if I remember
      > > correct the topic of the piece). Could someone remind me the source
      > > of this theory; book, or maybe make correct this my opinion, if my
      > > flashback is more or less wrong...
      > >
      > > Michal
      > >
      > > Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: Hi all. I hope that there
      > > still are a few fellows here so this isn't
      > > totalt in vain.
      > >
      > > I though about words for civilization and verbs to describe it, like
      > > civilize.
      > >
      > > After I thought a while I came up with an idea which was based on the
      > > word un-mana-riggws which means smth like fierce, cruel, barbaric and
      > > took the oposite word mana-riggws to mean civilized, (mostly an
      > > oposite meaning of barbaric). As noun I used mana-riggwitha (sf). I'd
      > > like to know what riggws is and what it mean.
      > >
      > > Later I found out that I already translated the word 'civilized' but
      > > forgot about it. At that earlier time I used uf-hausjands as the
      > > meaning 'behaved'.
      > >
      > > I also think there's a connection between the words civilization and
      > > culture, both coz civilized countries/people have a higher culture.
      > > And the icelandic word has a connection. Right now I can't tell for
      > > sure but if I remember correct civilization is siðmenning or smth
      > > like that and siða (a verb) means to bring up and menning (not sure
      > > if thats totally correct either) means culture, probably from a verb
      > > meaning 'to make a (behaved?) man of'
      > >
      > > Any ideas about this?
      > >
      > > What would the gothic word for the Cultural Revolution be?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
      > > Try it now.
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • OSCAR HERRERA
      i i think our suppositions are unfounded about the goths.....they migrated from gutland to the european mainland and transgressed with their migration south
      Message 2 of 9 , May 8, 2008
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        i i think our suppositions are unfounded about the goths.....they migrated from gutland to the european mainland and transgressed with their migration south thru centuries...we understand little about the germanic tribes and their customs before medeival times so supposition means little of them or the goths....i think its pretty obvious that germanic tribes expanded thru population then and simultaneously descended thru out europe.....i think the goths did the same with no help of other races or cultures around them....

        Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...> wrote: Hi,

        I can as well suggest you read my opus where I try to find out the
        possible connections between Scandinavia, Wielbark and
        Chernyakov-Sintana de Mures. The Goths consisted of many groups of
        different origin from time to time, but still they had a common
        tradition/ethnic glue which I think was originally of religious
        character. Read 'The Well Spring of the Goths' available on Amazon and
        many other sites.

        Best
        Ingemar

        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        > I can recommed Anders Kaliff's book Gothis connections
        >
        > http://www.stavgard.com/romaniron/goterna_/gothic/default.htm
        >
        > Tore
        >
        > 2 maj 2008 kl. 11.51 skrev Michal Cigan:
        >
        > > Hi,
        > > some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board
        > > treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths
        > > did not came from Scandinavia, but rather they - or their
        > > group identity - were established only later and on another place;
        > > from germanic tribes living beside roman limes (if I remember
        > > correct the topic of the piece). Could someone remind me the source
        > > of this theory; book, or maybe make correct this my opinion, if my
        > > flashback is more or less wrong...
        > >
        > > Michal
        > >
        > > Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: Hi all. I hope that there
        > > still are a few fellows here so this isn't
        > > totalt in vain.
        > >
        > > I though about words for civilization and verbs to describe it, like
        > > civilize.
        > >
        > > After I thought a while I came up with an idea which was based on the
        > > word un-mana-riggws which means smth like fierce, cruel, barbaric and
        > > took the oposite word mana-riggws to mean civilized, (mostly an
        > > oposite meaning of barbaric). As noun I used mana-riggwitha (sf). I'd
        > > like to know what riggws is and what it mean.
        > >
        > > Later I found out that I already translated the word 'civilized' but
        > > forgot about it. At that earlier time I used uf-hausjands as the
        > > meaning 'behaved'.
        > >
        > > I also think there's a connection between the words civilization and
        > > culture, both coz civilized countries/people have a higher culture.
        > > And the icelandic word has a connection. Right now I can't tell for
        > > sure but if I remember correct civilization is siðmenning or smth
        > > like that and siða (a verb) means to bring up and menning (not sure
        > > if thats totally correct either) means culture, probably from a verb
        > > meaning 'to make a (behaved?) man of'
        > >
        > > Any ideas about this?
        > >
        > > What would the gothic word for the Cultural Revolution be?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
        > > Try it now.
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Erwin
        ... In the Anglo-Saxon case, it s well-established that it was mostly re- identification and assimilation, not migration. In the Gothic case, the historical
        Message 3 of 9 , May 8, 2008
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          On May 8, 2008, at 3:15 AM, OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
          > i i think our suppositions are unfounded about the goths.....they
          > migrated from gutland to the european mainland and transgressed with
          > their migration south thru centuries...we understand little about
          > the germanic tribes and their customs before medeival times so
          > supposition means little of them or the goths....i think its pretty
          > obvious that germanic tribes expanded thru population then and
          > simultaneously descended thru out europe.....i think the goths did
          > the same with no help of other races or cultures around them....
          >

          In the Anglo-Saxon case, it's well-established that it was mostly re-
          identification and assimilation, not migration. In the Gothic case,
          the historical evidence for re-identification is clearer than the
          Anglo-Saxon case, though unfortunately the genetic evidence is not
          available. (Wulfila himself was descended from non-Goths).
        • Michal Cigan
          Im atracted rather to the concept of re-identification too - regardless we discuse about Goths, or any other of mediaval or premediaval gentes (even modern
          Message 4 of 9 , May 12, 2008
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            Im atracted rather to the concept of re-identification too - regardless we discuse about Goths, or any other of mediaval or premediaval gentes (even modern nations and national states). I only need to know, how far went the discusion about identity problem in the case of Goths.

            In my opinion group identity is a question of political construction, not of real biological ties. Social group, and especially its elite, often used to create narratives about their biological ties (only this "after-narrative" situation is what makes them literally "group" or "comunity"), best reaching to the past times (comon geografical origin - ancient homeland, unbroken royal dynasty and so on). But it does not imply empirical "realness" of this sonstructions; it does not imply, thet events described in such myths (empirical - biological, geografic - ties) are necessary historical real.

            M.

            Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote: On May 8, 2008, at 3:15 AM, OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
            > i i think our suppositions are unfounded about the goths.....they
            > migrated from gutland to the european mainland and transgressed with
            > their migration south thru centuries...we understand little about
            > the germanic tribes and their customs before medeival times so
            > supposition means little of them or the goths....i think its pretty
            > obvious that germanic tribes expanded thru population then and
            > simultaneously descended thru out europe.....i think the goths did
            > the same with no help of other races or cultures around them....
            >

            In the Anglo-Saxon case, it's well-established that it was mostly re-
            identification and assimilation, not migration. In the Gothic case,
            the historical evidence for re-identification is clearer than the
            Anglo-Saxon case, though unfortunately the genetic evidence is not
            available. (Wulfila himself was descended from non-Goths).





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