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[gothic-l] construction of gothic scandinavian urheimat

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  • Michal Cigan
    Hi, some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths did not came from Scandinavia, but
    Message 1 of 9 , May 2, 2008
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      Hi,
      some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board
      treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths
      did not came from Scandinavia, but rather they - or their
      group identity - were established only later and on another place; from germanic tribes living beside roman limes (if I remember correct the topic of the piece). Could someone remind me the source of this theory; book, or maybe make correct this my opinion, if my flashback is more or less wrong...

      Michal

      Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: Hi all. I hope that there still are a few fellows here so this isn't
      totalt in vain.

      I though about words for civilization and verbs to describe it, like
      civilize.

      After I thought a while I came up with an idea which was based on the
      word un-mana-riggws which means smth like fierce, cruel, barbaric and
      took the oposite word mana-riggws to mean civilized, (mostly an
      oposite meaning of barbaric). As noun I used mana-riggwitha (sf). I'd
      like to know what riggws is and what it mean.

      Later I found out that I already translated the word 'civilized' but
      forgot about it. At that earlier time I used uf-hausjands as the
      meaning 'behaved'.

      I also think there's a connection between the words civilization and
      culture, both coz civilized countries/people have a higher culture.
      And the icelandic word has a connection. Right now I can't tell for
      sure but if I remember correct civilization is siðmenning or smth
      like that and siða (a verb) means to bring up and menning (not sure
      if thats totally correct either) means culture, probably from a verb
      meaning 'to make a (behaved?) man of'

      Any ideas about this?

      What would the gothic word for the Cultural Revolution be?






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    • Michael Erwin
      ... Well, there are several different theories involved. Identity isn t something fixed, it is continually renewed and redefined, and Gothic identity may have
      Message 2 of 9 , May 7, 2008
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        On May 2, 2008, at 5:51 AM, Michal Cigan wrote:
        > Hi,
        > some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board
        > treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths
        > did not came from Scandinavia, but rather they - or their
        > group identity - were established only later and on another place;
        > from germanic tribes living beside roman limes (if I remember
        > correct the topic of the piece). Could someone remind me the source
        > of this theory; book, or maybe make correct this my opinion, if my
        > flashback is more or less wrong...
        >
        > Michal
        >

        Well, there are several different theories involved.

        Identity isn't something fixed, it is continually renewed and
        redefined, and Gothic identity may have been sharply redefined in the
        mid third and late fourth centuries, and more slowly redefined at
        other times.

        The most skeptical interpretation treats the Scandinavian origin-
        legend as a sixth-century myth, doing for the Goths what the Trojan
        origin-legend did for the Romans.

        Another interpretation starts Gothic identity with the Weilbark
        culture, or later with the Chernyakhovo culture, and traces various
        influences from older groups and contacts with neighboring groups.
        Weilbark certainly had ties to other cultures on the Baltic.

        Does it help to consider the Scandinavian ties the single origin of
        the early Goths and all the other ties as mere influences on the early
        Goths? It depends what you're doing.

        Does it help to consider the Weilbark culture the single origin of the
        middle Goths and the other contributors to the Chernyakhov culture as
        mere influences on the middle Goths? If you are studying the Gothic
        language, sure, it has definite affinities with other Germanic
        languages (which points towards Weilbark) and more affinities with
        North Germanic ones (especially Gutnish) than West Germanic ones. If
        you are studying Gothic pottery, no.
      • Tore Gannholm
        Hi, I can recommed Anders Kaliff s book Gothis connections http://www.stavgard.com/romaniron/goterna_/gothic/default.htm Tore ... [Non-text portions of this
        Message 3 of 9 , May 7, 2008
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          Hi,
          I can recommed Anders Kaliff's book Gothis connections

          http://www.stavgard.com/romaniron/goterna_/gothic/default.htm

          Tore

          2 maj 2008 kl. 11.51 skrev Michal Cigan:

          > Hi,
          > some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board
          > treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths
          > did not came from Scandinavia, but rather they - or their
          > group identity - were established only later and on another place;
          > from germanic tribes living beside roman limes (if I remember
          > correct the topic of the piece). Could someone remind me the source
          > of this theory; book, or maybe make correct this my opinion, if my
          > flashback is more or less wrong...
          >
          > Michal
          >
          > Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: Hi all. I hope that there
          > still are a few fellows here so this isn't
          > totalt in vain.
          >
          > I though about words for civilization and verbs to describe it, like
          > civilize.
          >
          > After I thought a while I came up with an idea which was based on the
          > word un-mana-riggws which means smth like fierce, cruel, barbaric and
          > took the oposite word mana-riggws to mean civilized, (mostly an
          > oposite meaning of barbaric). As noun I used mana-riggwitha (sf). I'd
          > like to know what riggws is and what it mean.
          >
          > Later I found out that I already translated the word 'civilized' but
          > forgot about it. At that earlier time I used uf-hausjands as the
          > meaning 'behaved'.
          >
          > I also think there's a connection between the words civilization and
          > culture, both coz civilized countries/people have a higher culture.
          > And the icelandic word has a connection. Right now I can't tell for
          > sure but if I remember correct civilization is siðmenning or smth
          > like that and siða (a verb) means to bring up and menning (not sure
          > if thats totally correct either) means culture, probably from a verb
          > meaning 'to make a (behaved?) man of'
          >
          > Any ideas about this?
          >
          > What would the gothic word for the Cultural Revolution be?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
          > Try it now.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ingemar Nordgren
          Hi, I can as well suggest you read my opus where I try to find out the possible connections between Scandinavia, Wielbark and Chernyakov-Sintana de Mures. The
          Message 4 of 9 , May 7, 2008
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            Hi,

            I can as well suggest you read my opus where I try to find out the
            possible connections between Scandinavia, Wielbark and
            Chernyakov-Sintana de Mures. The Goths consisted of many groups of
            different origin from time to time, but still they had a common
            tradition/ethnic glue which I think was originally of religious
            character. Read 'The Well Spring of the Goths' available on Amazon and
            many other sites.

            Best
            Ingemar

            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            > I can recommed Anders Kaliff's book Gothis connections
            >
            > http://www.stavgard.com/romaniron/goterna_/gothic/default.htm
            >
            > Tore
            >
            > 2 maj 2008 kl. 11.51 skrev Michal Cigan:
            >
            > > Hi,
            > > some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board
            > > treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths
            > > did not came from Scandinavia, but rather they - or their
            > > group identity - were established only later and on another place;
            > > from germanic tribes living beside roman limes (if I remember
            > > correct the topic of the piece). Could someone remind me the source
            > > of this theory; book, or maybe make correct this my opinion, if my
            > > flashback is more or less wrong...
            > >
            > > Michal
            > >
            > > Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: Hi all. I hope that there
            > > still are a few fellows here so this isn't
            > > totalt in vain.
            > >
            > > I though about words for civilization and verbs to describe it, like
            > > civilize.
            > >
            > > After I thought a while I came up with an idea which was based on the
            > > word un-mana-riggws which means smth like fierce, cruel, barbaric and
            > > took the oposite word mana-riggws to mean civilized, (mostly an
            > > oposite meaning of barbaric). As noun I used mana-riggwitha (sf). I'd
            > > like to know what riggws is and what it mean.
            > >
            > > Later I found out that I already translated the word 'civilized' but
            > > forgot about it. At that earlier time I used uf-hausjands as the
            > > meaning 'behaved'.
            > >
            > > I also think there's a connection between the words civilization and
            > > culture, both coz civilized countries/people have a higher culture.
            > > And the icelandic word has a connection. Right now I can't tell for
            > > sure but if I remember correct civilization is siðmenning or smth
            > > like that and siða (a verb) means to bring up and menning (not sure
            > > if thats totally correct either) means culture, probably from a verb
            > > meaning 'to make a (behaved?) man of'
            > >
            > > Any ideas about this?
            > >
            > > What would the gothic word for the Cultural Revolution be?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
            > > Try it now.
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • OSCAR HERRERA
            i i think our suppositions are unfounded about the goths.....they migrated from gutland to the european mainland and transgressed with their migration south
            Message 5 of 9 , May 8, 2008
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              i i think our suppositions are unfounded about the goths.....they migrated from gutland to the european mainland and transgressed with their migration south thru centuries...we understand little about the germanic tribes and their customs before medeival times so supposition means little of them or the goths....i think its pretty obvious that germanic tribes expanded thru population then and simultaneously descended thru out europe.....i think the goths did the same with no help of other races or cultures around them....

              Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...> wrote: Hi,

              I can as well suggest you read my opus where I try to find out the
              possible connections between Scandinavia, Wielbark and
              Chernyakov-Sintana de Mures. The Goths consisted of many groups of
              different origin from time to time, but still they had a common
              tradition/ethnic glue which I think was originally of religious
              character. Read 'The Well Spring of the Goths' available on Amazon and
              many other sites.

              Best
              Ingemar

              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi,
              > I can recommed Anders Kaliff's book Gothis connections
              >
              > http://www.stavgard.com/romaniron/goterna_/gothic/default.htm
              >
              > Tore
              >
              > 2 maj 2008 kl. 11.51 skrev Michal Cigan:
              >
              > > Hi,
              > > some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board
              > > treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths
              > > did not came from Scandinavia, but rather they - or their
              > > group identity - were established only later and on another place;
              > > from germanic tribes living beside roman limes (if I remember
              > > correct the topic of the piece). Could someone remind me the source
              > > of this theory; book, or maybe make correct this my opinion, if my
              > > flashback is more or less wrong...
              > >
              > > Michal
              > >
              > > Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: Hi all. I hope that there
              > > still are a few fellows here so this isn't
              > > totalt in vain.
              > >
              > > I though about words for civilization and verbs to describe it, like
              > > civilize.
              > >
              > > After I thought a while I came up with an idea which was based on the
              > > word un-mana-riggws which means smth like fierce, cruel, barbaric and
              > > took the oposite word mana-riggws to mean civilized, (mostly an
              > > oposite meaning of barbaric). As noun I used mana-riggwitha (sf). I'd
              > > like to know what riggws is and what it mean.
              > >
              > > Later I found out that I already translated the word 'civilized' but
              > > forgot about it. At that earlier time I used uf-hausjands as the
              > > meaning 'behaved'.
              > >
              > > I also think there's a connection between the words civilization and
              > > culture, both coz civilized countries/people have a higher culture.
              > > And the icelandic word has a connection. Right now I can't tell for
              > > sure but if I remember correct civilization is siðmenning or smth
              > > like that and siða (a verb) means to bring up and menning (not sure
              > > if thats totally correct either) means culture, probably from a verb
              > > meaning 'to make a (behaved?) man of'
              > >
              > > Any ideas about this?
              > >
              > > What would the gothic word for the Cultural Revolution be?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
              > > Try it now.
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Erwin
              ... In the Anglo-Saxon case, it s well-established that it was mostly re- identification and assimilation, not migration. In the Gothic case, the historical
              Message 6 of 9 , May 8, 2008
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                On May 8, 2008, at 3:15 AM, OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
                > i i think our suppositions are unfounded about the goths.....they
                > migrated from gutland to the european mainland and transgressed with
                > their migration south thru centuries...we understand little about
                > the germanic tribes and their customs before medeival times so
                > supposition means little of them or the goths....i think its pretty
                > obvious that germanic tribes expanded thru population then and
                > simultaneously descended thru out europe.....i think the goths did
                > the same with no help of other races or cultures around them....
                >

                In the Anglo-Saxon case, it's well-established that it was mostly re-
                identification and assimilation, not migration. In the Gothic case,
                the historical evidence for re-identification is clearer than the
                Anglo-Saxon case, though unfortunately the genetic evidence is not
                available. (Wulfila himself was descended from non-Goths).
              • Michal Cigan
                Im atracted rather to the concept of re-identification too - regardless we discuse about Goths, or any other of mediaval or premediaval gentes (even modern
                Message 7 of 9 , May 12, 2008
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                  Im atracted rather to the concept of re-identification too - regardless we discuse about Goths, or any other of mediaval or premediaval gentes (even modern nations and national states). I only need to know, how far went the discusion about identity problem in the case of Goths.

                  In my opinion group identity is a question of political construction, not of real biological ties. Social group, and especially its elite, often used to create narratives about their biological ties (only this "after-narrative" situation is what makes them literally "group" or "comunity"), best reaching to the past times (comon geografical origin - ancient homeland, unbroken royal dynasty and so on). But it does not imply empirical "realness" of this sonstructions; it does not imply, thet events described in such myths (empirical - biological, geografic - ties) are necessary historical real.

                  M.

                  Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote: On May 8, 2008, at 3:15 AM, OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
                  > i i think our suppositions are unfounded about the goths.....they
                  > migrated from gutland to the european mainland and transgressed with
                  > their migration south thru centuries...we understand little about
                  > the germanic tribes and their customs before medeival times so
                  > supposition means little of them or the goths....i think its pretty
                  > obvious that germanic tribes expanded thru population then and
                  > simultaneously descended thru out europe.....i think the goths did
                  > the same with no help of other races or cultures around them....
                  >

                  In the Anglo-Saxon case, it's well-established that it was mostly re-
                  identification and assimilation, not migration. In the Gothic case,
                  the historical evidence for re-identification is clearer than the
                  Anglo-Saxon case, though unfortunately the genetic evidence is not
                  available. (Wulfila himself was descended from non-Goths).





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