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Civilization & Culture

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  • Fredrik
    Hi all. I hope that there still are a few fellows here so this isn t totalt in vain. I though about words for civilization and verbs to describe it, like
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 10, 2008
      Hi all. I hope that there still are a few fellows here so this isn't
      totalt in vain.

      I though about words for civilization and verbs to describe it, like
      civilize.

      After I thought a while I came up with an idea which was based on the
      word un-mana-riggws which means smth like fierce, cruel, barbaric and
      took the oposite word mana-riggws to mean civilized, (mostly an
      oposite meaning of barbaric). As noun I used mana-riggwitha (sf). I'd
      like to know what riggws is and what it mean.

      Later I found out that I already translated the word 'civilized' but
      forgot about it. At that earlier time I used uf-hausjands as the
      meaning 'behaved'.

      I also think there's a connection between the words civilization and
      culture, both coz civilized countries/people have a higher culture.
      And the icelandic word has a connection. Right now I can't tell for
      sure but if I remember correct civilization is siðmenning or smth
      like that and siða (a verb) means to bring up and menning (not sure
      if thats totally correct either) means culture, probably from a verb
      meaning 'to make a (behaved?) man of'

      Any ideas about this?

      What would the gothic word for the Cultural Revolution be?
    • Michael Erwin
      Civilization denotes urbanization, and connotes higher culture. In the strict sense of civilization = urbanism, I d suggest something derived from
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 10, 2008
        "Civilization" denotes urbanization, and connotes 'higher culture.'

        In the strict sense of civilization = urbanism, I'd suggest something
        derived from baurgs... In the opposite sense of civilization =
        'higher culture,' your suggestion might make sense, and loanwords
        might also make sense.

        Some very sketchy ideas ...

        culture change = ? inmaideins arbjis OR inmaideins *kulturos OR
        *wandeins arbjis OR *wandeins *kulturos

        cultural horizon (archaeology) = ???

        cultural tradition (archaeology) = ? arbi OR arbi *kulturos

        cultural revolution = ???

        Cultural Revolution = ? Uswalteins *Kulturos OR So Uswalteins
        *Kulturisko
      • Michal Cigan
        Hi, some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths did not came from Scandinavia, but
        Message 3 of 9 , May 2, 2008
          Hi,
          some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board
          treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths
          did not came from Scandinavia, but rather they - or their
          group identity - were established only later and on another place; from germanic tribes living beside roman limes (if I remember correct the topic of the piece). Could someone remind me the source of this theory; book, or maybe make correct this my opinion, if my flashback is more or less wrong...

          Michal

          Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: Hi all. I hope that there still are a few fellows here so this isn't
          totalt in vain.

          I though about words for civilization and verbs to describe it, like
          civilize.

          After I thought a while I came up with an idea which was based on the
          word un-mana-riggws which means smth like fierce, cruel, barbaric and
          took the oposite word mana-riggws to mean civilized, (mostly an
          oposite meaning of barbaric). As noun I used mana-riggwitha (sf). I'd
          like to know what riggws is and what it mean.

          Later I found out that I already translated the word 'civilized' but
          forgot about it. At that earlier time I used uf-hausjands as the
          meaning 'behaved'.

          I also think there's a connection between the words civilization and
          culture, both coz civilized countries/people have a higher culture.
          And the icelandic word has a connection. Right now I can't tell for
          sure but if I remember correct civilization is siðmenning or smth
          like that and siða (a verb) means to bring up and menning (not sure
          if thats totally correct either) means culture, probably from a verb
          meaning 'to make a (behaved?) man of'

          Any ideas about this?

          What would the gothic word for the Cultural Revolution be?






          ---------------------------------
          Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michael Erwin
          ... Well, there are several different theories involved. Identity isn t something fixed, it is continually renewed and redefined, and Gothic identity may have
          Message 4 of 9 , May 7, 2008
            On May 2, 2008, at 5:51 AM, Michal Cigan wrote:
            > Hi,
            > some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board
            > treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths
            > did not came from Scandinavia, but rather they - or their
            > group identity - were established only later and on another place;
            > from germanic tribes living beside roman limes (if I remember
            > correct the topic of the piece). Could someone remind me the source
            > of this theory; book, or maybe make correct this my opinion, if my
            > flashback is more or less wrong...
            >
            > Michal
            >

            Well, there are several different theories involved.

            Identity isn't something fixed, it is continually renewed and
            redefined, and Gothic identity may have been sharply redefined in the
            mid third and late fourth centuries, and more slowly redefined at
            other times.

            The most skeptical interpretation treats the Scandinavian origin-
            legend as a sixth-century myth, doing for the Goths what the Trojan
            origin-legend did for the Romans.

            Another interpretation starts Gothic identity with the Weilbark
            culture, or later with the Chernyakhovo culture, and traces various
            influences from older groups and contacts with neighboring groups.
            Weilbark certainly had ties to other cultures on the Baltic.

            Does it help to consider the Scandinavian ties the single origin of
            the early Goths and all the other ties as mere influences on the early
            Goths? It depends what you're doing.

            Does it help to consider the Weilbark culture the single origin of the
            middle Goths and the other contributors to the Chernyakhov culture as
            mere influences on the middle Goths? If you are studying the Gothic
            language, sure, it has definite affinities with other Germanic
            languages (which points towards Weilbark) and more affinities with
            North Germanic ones (especially Gutnish) than West Germanic ones. If
            you are studying Gothic pottery, no.
          • Tore Gannholm
            Hi, I can recommed Anders Kaliff s book Gothis connections http://www.stavgard.com/romaniron/goterna_/gothic/default.htm Tore ... [Non-text portions of this
            Message 5 of 9 , May 7, 2008
              Hi,
              I can recommed Anders Kaliff's book Gothis connections

              http://www.stavgard.com/romaniron/goterna_/gothic/default.htm

              Tore

              2 maj 2008 kl. 11.51 skrev Michal Cigan:

              > Hi,
              > some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board
              > treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths
              > did not came from Scandinavia, but rather they - or their
              > group identity - were established only later and on another place;
              > from germanic tribes living beside roman limes (if I remember
              > correct the topic of the piece). Could someone remind me the source
              > of this theory; book, or maybe make correct this my opinion, if my
              > flashback is more or less wrong...
              >
              > Michal
              >
              > Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: Hi all. I hope that there
              > still are a few fellows here so this isn't
              > totalt in vain.
              >
              > I though about words for civilization and verbs to describe it, like
              > civilize.
              >
              > After I thought a while I came up with an idea which was based on the
              > word un-mana-riggws which means smth like fierce, cruel, barbaric and
              > took the oposite word mana-riggws to mean civilized, (mostly an
              > oposite meaning of barbaric). As noun I used mana-riggwitha (sf). I'd
              > like to know what riggws is and what it mean.
              >
              > Later I found out that I already translated the word 'civilized' but
              > forgot about it. At that earlier time I used uf-hausjands as the
              > meaning 'behaved'.
              >
              > I also think there's a connection between the words civilization and
              > culture, both coz civilized countries/people have a higher culture.
              > And the icelandic word has a connection. Right now I can't tell for
              > sure but if I remember correct civilization is siðmenning or smth
              > like that and siða (a verb) means to bring up and menning (not sure
              > if thats totally correct either) means culture, probably from a verb
              > meaning 'to make a (behaved?) man of'
              >
              > Any ideas about this?
              >
              > What would the gothic word for the Cultural Revolution be?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
              > Try it now.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ingemar Nordgren
              Hi, I can as well suggest you read my opus where I try to find out the possible connections between Scandinavia, Wielbark and Chernyakov-Sintana de Mures. The
              Message 6 of 9 , May 7, 2008
                Hi,

                I can as well suggest you read my opus where I try to find out the
                possible connections between Scandinavia, Wielbark and
                Chernyakov-Sintana de Mures. The Goths consisted of many groups of
                different origin from time to time, but still they had a common
                tradition/ethnic glue which I think was originally of religious
                character. Read 'The Well Spring of the Goths' available on Amazon and
                many other sites.

                Best
                Ingemar

                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                > I can recommed Anders Kaliff's book Gothis connections
                >
                > http://www.stavgard.com/romaniron/goterna_/gothic/default.htm
                >
                > Tore
                >
                > 2 maj 2008 kl. 11.51 skrev Michal Cigan:
                >
                > > Hi,
                > > some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board
                > > treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths
                > > did not came from Scandinavia, but rather they - or their
                > > group identity - were established only later and on another place;
                > > from germanic tribes living beside roman limes (if I remember
                > > correct the topic of the piece). Could someone remind me the source
                > > of this theory; book, or maybe make correct this my opinion, if my
                > > flashback is more or less wrong...
                > >
                > > Michal
                > >
                > > Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: Hi all. I hope that there
                > > still are a few fellows here so this isn't
                > > totalt in vain.
                > >
                > > I though about words for civilization and verbs to describe it, like
                > > civilize.
                > >
                > > After I thought a while I came up with an idea which was based on the
                > > word un-mana-riggws which means smth like fierce, cruel, barbaric and
                > > took the oposite word mana-riggws to mean civilized, (mostly an
                > > oposite meaning of barbaric). As noun I used mana-riggwitha (sf). I'd
                > > like to know what riggws is and what it mean.
                > >
                > > Later I found out that I already translated the word 'civilized' but
                > > forgot about it. At that earlier time I used uf-hausjands as the
                > > meaning 'behaved'.
                > >
                > > I also think there's a connection between the words civilization and
                > > culture, both coz civilized countries/people have a higher culture.
                > > And the icelandic word has a connection. Right now I can't tell for
                > > sure but if I remember correct civilization is siðmenning or smth
                > > like that and siða (a verb) means to bring up and menning (not sure
                > > if thats totally correct either) means culture, probably from a verb
                > > meaning 'to make a (behaved?) man of'
                > >
                > > Any ideas about this?
                > >
                > > What would the gothic word for the Cultural Revolution be?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
                > > Try it now.
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • OSCAR HERRERA
                i i think our suppositions are unfounded about the goths.....they migrated from gutland to the european mainland and transgressed with their migration south
                Message 7 of 9 , May 8, 2008
                  i i think our suppositions are unfounded about the goths.....they migrated from gutland to the european mainland and transgressed with their migration south thru centuries...we understand little about the germanic tribes and their customs before medeival times so supposition means little of them or the goths....i think its pretty obvious that germanic tribes expanded thru population then and simultaneously descended thru out europe.....i think the goths did the same with no help of other races or cultures around them....

                  Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@...> wrote: Hi,

                  I can as well suggest you read my opus where I try to find out the
                  possible connections between Scandinavia, Wielbark and
                  Chernyakov-Sintana de Mures. The Goths consisted of many groups of
                  different origin from time to time, but still they had a common
                  tradition/ethnic glue which I think was originally of religious
                  character. Read 'The Well Spring of the Goths' available on Amazon and
                  many other sites.

                  Best
                  Ingemar

                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  > I can recommed Anders Kaliff's book Gothis connections
                  >
                  > http://www.stavgard.com/romaniron/goterna_/gothic/default.htm
                  >
                  > Tore
                  >
                  > 2 maj 2008 kl. 11.51 skrev Michal Cigan:
                  >
                  > > Hi,
                  > > some times (maybe year/s) ago i saw a piece on this board
                  > > treating of (or better linking to) the theory, that Goths
                  > > did not came from Scandinavia, but rather they - or their
                  > > group identity - were established only later and on another place;
                  > > from germanic tribes living beside roman limes (if I remember
                  > > correct the topic of the piece). Could someone remind me the source
                  > > of this theory; book, or maybe make correct this my opinion, if my
                  > > flashback is more or less wrong...
                  > >
                  > > Michal
                  > >
                  > > Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: Hi all. I hope that there
                  > > still are a few fellows here so this isn't
                  > > totalt in vain.
                  > >
                  > > I though about words for civilization and verbs to describe it, like
                  > > civilize.
                  > >
                  > > After I thought a while I came up with an idea which was based on the
                  > > word un-mana-riggws which means smth like fierce, cruel, barbaric and
                  > > took the oposite word mana-riggws to mean civilized, (mostly an
                  > > oposite meaning of barbaric). As noun I used mana-riggwitha (sf). I'd
                  > > like to know what riggws is and what it mean.
                  > >
                  > > Later I found out that I already translated the word 'civilized' but
                  > > forgot about it. At that earlier time I used uf-hausjands as the
                  > > meaning 'behaved'.
                  > >
                  > > I also think there's a connection between the words civilization and
                  > > culture, both coz civilized countries/people have a higher culture.
                  > > And the icelandic word has a connection. Right now I can't tell for
                  > > sure but if I remember correct civilization is siðmenning or smth
                  > > like that and siða (a verb) means to bring up and menning (not sure
                  > > if thats totally correct either) means culture, probably from a verb
                  > > meaning 'to make a (behaved?) man of'
                  > >
                  > > Any ideas about this?
                  > >
                  > > What would the gothic word for the Cultural Revolution be?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
                  > > Try it now.
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michael Erwin
                  ... In the Anglo-Saxon case, it s well-established that it was mostly re- identification and assimilation, not migration. In the Gothic case, the historical
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 8, 2008
                    On May 8, 2008, at 3:15 AM, OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
                    > i i think our suppositions are unfounded about the goths.....they
                    > migrated from gutland to the european mainland and transgressed with
                    > their migration south thru centuries...we understand little about
                    > the germanic tribes and their customs before medeival times so
                    > supposition means little of them or the goths....i think its pretty
                    > obvious that germanic tribes expanded thru population then and
                    > simultaneously descended thru out europe.....i think the goths did
                    > the same with no help of other races or cultures around them....
                    >

                    In the Anglo-Saxon case, it's well-established that it was mostly re-
                    identification and assimilation, not migration. In the Gothic case,
                    the historical evidence for re-identification is clearer than the
                    Anglo-Saxon case, though unfortunately the genetic evidence is not
                    available. (Wulfila himself was descended from non-Goths).
                  • Michal Cigan
                    Im atracted rather to the concept of re-identification too - regardless we discuse about Goths, or any other of mediaval or premediaval gentes (even modern
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 12, 2008
                      Im atracted rather to the concept of re-identification too - regardless we discuse about Goths, or any other of mediaval or premediaval gentes (even modern nations and national states). I only need to know, how far went the discusion about identity problem in the case of Goths.

                      In my opinion group identity is a question of political construction, not of real biological ties. Social group, and especially its elite, often used to create narratives about their biological ties (only this "after-narrative" situation is what makes them literally "group" or "comunity"), best reaching to the past times (comon geografical origin - ancient homeland, unbroken royal dynasty and so on). But it does not imply empirical "realness" of this sonstructions; it does not imply, thet events described in such myths (empirical - biological, geografic - ties) are necessary historical real.

                      M.

                      Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote: On May 8, 2008, at 3:15 AM, OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
                      > i i think our suppositions are unfounded about the goths.....they
                      > migrated from gutland to the european mainland and transgressed with
                      > their migration south thru centuries...we understand little about
                      > the germanic tribes and their customs before medeival times so
                      > supposition means little of them or the goths....i think its pretty
                      > obvious that germanic tribes expanded thru population then and
                      > simultaneously descended thru out europe.....i think the goths did
                      > the same with no help of other races or cultures around them....
                      >

                      In the Anglo-Saxon case, it's well-established that it was mostly re-
                      identification and assimilation, not migration. In the Gothic case,
                      the historical evidence for re-identification is clearer than the
                      Anglo-Saxon case, though unfortunately the genetic evidence is not
                      available. (Wulfila himself was descended from non-Goths).





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