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Re: [gothic-l] Nauh niwi liuþ

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  • OSCAR HERRERA
    thau ita sunds god OSCAR HERRERA wrote: sounds good Fredrik wrote: The poet strikes again! Just
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 6, 2008
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      thau ita sunds god

      OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@...> wrote: sounds good

      Fredrik <gadrauhts@...> wrote: The poet strikes again!

      Just kidding. But I've tried to translate a poem.
      I just need your ideas about my word choices and ways to express.

      The original from which I translated is in swedish so now I will try
      to translate the same one to english for you to understand.
      The english translation is probably much mor correct and the gothic
      is more freely translated.

      Gothic first:

      Jai þannu agliþ

      Jai þannu agliþ hvan bruteis bristand.
      Duhvê sáinjái wêzr?
      Duhvê bindada alla gaírnei unsara sô heitô
      in þamma frusanin báitrafalwin?
      Hulþs was bruts sa alla wintrus.
      Hva ist þata niujô, þatei taíriþ jah spraggeiþ?
      Jai þannu agliþ hvan bruteis bristand,
      agliþ þamma wahsjandin
      jah þamma lukandin.

      Jai þannu aglus ist hvan drupans driusand.
      Reirands fram karai kauruba eis hahand,
      haftjand sik ana taina, swilland, gleidand -
      Dalaþ ins þinsai kaurus, hvaiwa kliggand.
      Aglus wisan unwiss, faurhts jah skaidans,
      Aglus ufkunnan diupein þo þinsandein jah haitandein,
      nauh bileiban sitands jah þatain skudon -
      aglus bileiban wiljan
      jah driusan wiljan.

      Þan, hvan wairsist ist jah ni waihts hilpiþ,
      Bristand swe in wunjai brusteis bagmis.
      Þan, hvan ni faurhtei ju þanaseiþs haldiþ,
      driusand in glitmunjai drupans tainis
      ufarmaudjand þatei þlahsnanai wesun fram þamma niujin
      ufarmaudjand þatei karanai wesun bi fara -
      ufkunnun aina stika þo þwastiþa mikiliston seinon,
      hveiland in þizai triggwein
      þizaiei fairhvu gaskapjiþ.

      And now, here's my affort to english translation:

      Yes it does hurt when sprouts/buds burst.
      Why else would the spring hesitate?
      Why would all our hot longing
      be tied in the frozen bitterpale?
      Hidden was the sprout the entire winter.
      What's the new, tearing and blasting?
      Yes it does hurt when sprouts burst,
      hurting for the growing
      and the closing

      Yes it's hard when dropps are falling.
      Quaking by anxiety they're haning heavily,
      clinging by the twig, swelling, gliding
      the weight pulling them down, how they cling.
      Hard to be uncertain, afraid and devided,
      hard to feel the pulling and calling from the depth,
      still remain sitting and just shiver
      hard to wanting to stay
      and wanting to fall

      Then, when it's worst and nothing helps,
      bursting, like jubilation, the sprouts of the tree.
      Then, when no fear no longer will hold
      fall in a glitter the drops of the twig
      forget that they were scared by the new
      forget that they were anxious about the journey
      feel for a second their greatest safety,
      resting in the confidence
      that creates the world

      Site of poeam
      http://www.geocities.com/gutiska/glydian/poema.html

      Swedish:
      http://www.karinboye.se/verk/dikter/dikter/ja-visst-gor-det-ont.shtml

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • llama_nom
      Hails, Friþureik! Sorry it s taken me so long to reply to this; I ve been a bit busy lately... ... I think it would be niu (or niujata ) like the neuter
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 16, 2008
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        Hails, Friþureik!

        Sorry it's taken me so long to reply to this; I've been a bit busy
        lately...

        > niwi liuþ

        I think it would be 'niu' (or 'niujata') like the neuter ja-stem nouns
        'kniu' and 'triu'.

        > agliþ

        'agleiþ' "it hurts" (with Sievers' Law: PGmc. *'ij' > Go. 'ei').

        > bruteis

        Köbler has *'bruts' and *'brutilo' for "bud", based on loanwords into
        Romance. Do we have any clue as to what declension this *'bruts' would
        belong to?

        > bristand

        Alternatively, you could use the attested verb 'keinan' or 'uskeinan':
        Jai, agleiþ, þan brutilons uskeinand [...]

        > Duhvê sáinjái wêzr?

        Some ways of saying "or else...?", "or for what other reason...?":

        aiþþau duhve sainjai wezr?
        In hvis aljis sainjai wezr?
        Duhve sainjai wezr, alja in þis?

        Alternatives to 'sainjai' using attested words:

        In hvis aljis qimai wezr us trigon? "...come reluctantly"
        Hva aljis latjai wezr? "What else would delay spring? ...hold spring
        back?"

        > Duhvê bindada alla gaírnei unsara sô heitô
        > in þamma frusanin báitrafalwin?

        Duhve bindada alla gairnei unsara so haito in þamma frusanin baitrafalwin?

        ON 'heitr', OE 'hát', OS 'hêt', OHG 'heiz' would correspond to Go.
        *'haits'.

        > Hulþs was bruts sa alla wintrus.

        Accusative is used for an extent/stretch/period/duration of time:

        Allana wintru bruts huliþs was.
        ...brutilo hulida was.

        > Hva ist þata niujô, þatei taíriþ jah spraggeiþ?

        Hva ist þata niujo, þatei disskreitiþ jah distairiþ?

        'disskreitan' is used in the Gothic Bible for "tear" (clothes), and
        'distairan' for (cause to) burst (wine-bags which burst from
        fermenting wine).

        > agliþ þamma wahsjandin
        > jah þamma lukandin.

        That's one possibility. Another way of doing it would be to keep
        those as relative clauses, and make the syntax more like Swedish than
        Greek:

        Jai, agleiþ, þan brutilons uskeinand; agleiþ þamma, þatei liudiþ, jah
        þamma, þatei galukiþ.
        "Yes, it hurst when the buds burst; it hurts what grows, and what closes."

        'agljan' takes a dative object for the person who is hurt.
        Alternatively, instead of 'þamma, þatei', you can have just 'þammei'
        (see Streitberg: Gotische Syntax, § 348).

        LN
      • llama_nom
        ... I think I d make the adjective neuter, like this: Jai, aglu ist, þan drupans driusand. Compare: hvaiwa aglu ist þaim hugjandam afar faihau in
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 17, 2008
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          Some comments on the 2nd stanza:

          > Jai þannu aglus ist hvan drupans driusand.

          I think I'd make the adjective neuter, like this: 'Jai, aglu ist, þan
          drupans driusand.' Compare: hvaiwa aglu ist þaim hugjandam afar
          faihau in þiudangardja gudis galeiþan (Mk 10:24). And I'd use 'þan'
          or 'þanei' for "when", except where it's a direct or indirect question
          - e.g. direct: hvan managans habaiþ hlaibans' "how many loaves have
          you got?" (Mk 8:5). I can't find an example of an indirect question
          with 'hvan' (that is, dependent on a verb meaning "ask", "know",
          "understand", "discover", "prove"), but there are examples with other
          interrogative pronouns: ak fraþjandans hva sijai wilja fraujins "but
          understanding what the will of the Lord is" (Eph 5:17).

          > Reirands fram karai kauruba eis hahand,

          Masculine nominative plural 'reirandans'.

          > haftjand sik ana taina, swilland, gleidand -

          haftjand sik taina/ansta (with dative and no preposition, e.g.
          'haftjandans godamma' "sticking to what is good" (R 12:9)).

          > Dalaþ ins þinsai kaurus, hvaiwa kliggand.

          'kaurei ins dalaþ atþinsiþ' - compare the combinations 'dalaþ
          atsteigan', 'dalaþ atgaggan'.

          > Aglus wisan unwiss, faurhts jah skaidans,

          Again, I'd use neuter, "it is hard": 'Aglu unwiss wisan, jah faurhts
          jah skaidans,'

          > Aglus ufkunnan diupein þo þinsandein jah haitandein,

          You could use infinitives:

          aglu diupiþa/diupein ufkunnan atþinsan jah athaitan
          aglu diupiþai/diupein gaumjan atþinsan jah athaitan

          The most common form is 'diupiþa', but 'diupei' is also attested.

          > nauh bileiban sitands jah þatain skudon -

          sweþauh nauh sitan jah þatainei reiran,

          *'skudon'? or *'skudjan' (OHG 'scuttan' > NHG 'schütten') or
          *'skudison' (OHG 'scutisôn') or *'skutilon' (OHG 'scutilôn')? Is the
          double 'dd' in Swedish 'skudda' due to it being a loanword from West
          Germanic (Low German 'schudden'), where gemination was the rule before
          /j/. There's also a version with long [u:] in the root, represented
          in MDu. 'schûderen' and NHG 'schaudern'.

          Alternatives: *'skakan', *'skilban'.

          > aglus bileiban wiljan
          > jah driusan wiljan.

          aglu bileiban wiljan
          jah driusan wiljan.

          I'd translate it the same way, except with neuter for the adjective.
          We have a few other choices for "stay": 'wisan', 'gawisan', 'gastandan'.

          LN
        • llama_nom
          ... Þanuh, biþe wairsist ist Þaruh, þan(ei) wairsist ist Jah þan, (swa)swe wairsist ist (Or any other combination of either þanuh , þaruh or jah
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 20, 2008
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            > Þan, hvan wairsist ist

            Þanuh, biþe wairsist ist
            Þaruh, þan(ei) wairsist ist
            Jah þan, (swa)swe wairsist ist

            (Or any other combination of either 'þanuh', 'þaruh' or 'jah þan' +
            either 'biþe', 'þan(ei)' or '(swa)swe'. 'þan' at the very beginning of
            a clause always means "when". As I mentioned in my previous post,
            'hvan' would only be used in a direct or indirect question (e.g.
            direct: "when will they come?"; indirect: "I don't know when they will
            come").

            > jah ni waihts hilpiþ

            That's good. Equally acceptable alternatives: jah waihts ni hilpiþ;
            jah ni hilpiþ waihts.

            > Bristand swe in wunjai brusteis bagmis.

            The grammar looks fine to me, and you've got some good alliteration
            there. Alternatively, you could used the attested verb '(us)keinan':
            uskeinand swe in wunjai / in hlasein / miþ fahedai brusteis/bristilons
            bagmis.

            > Þan, hvan ni faurhtei ju þanaseiþs haldiþ,

            þanuh, biþe waihts faurhteino/agise (ju) þanaseiþs/þanamais ni haldiþ

            You've got a choice of word orders here. There is a tendency to place
            'ni' directly before the verb, but it's also not unusual to put it
            before words like 'waiht(s)' or 'þanaseiþs/þanamais', either as well
            as or instead of before the verb. Optionally, 'ni' can be placed at
            the beginning of the clause with the verb directly after it.

            > driusand in glitmunjai drupans tainis

            Good. (Or: driusand glitmunjandans drupans tainis.)

            > ufarmaudjand þatei

            Good, or: ufarmunnond þammei

            > þlahsnanai wesun

            Either 'þlahsidai wesun' or 'þlahsnodedun'.

            > fram þamma niujin

            Good.

            > ufarmaudjand þatei karanai wesun bi fara -

            ufarmaudjand þatei ins *faros/wratodaus kara was
            ufarmunnond þammei [...]

            > ufkunnun

            ufkunnand, weak class 3 [
            http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B076.html ].

            > aina stika

            The attested phrase is 'in stika melis' "in a moment of time",
            litterally a "point of time", L 4:5 (I'm not sure whether this means
            "immediately, without delay" or "just for a moment, after which the
            vision disappeared) [
            http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/browse/text/?book=3&chapter=4 ]. But here
            you could maybe use the accusative expressing duration of time 'stik
            melis' "for a moment". 'stiks' is presumed to be a masculine i-stem,
            because of cognates, although it's only attested in Gothic this once
            in the dative singular.

            > þo þwastiþa mikiliston seinon,

            The possessive adjectives are only declined strong, and the
            superlative of 'mikils' is 'maists': þo maiston þwastiþa seina;
            þwastiþa seina þo maiston.

            > hveiland in þizai triggwein
            > þizaiei fairhvu gaskapjiþ.

            I'd make this an accusative + infinitive construction: hveilan in
            stomin þatei fairhvu gaskapjiþ "resting in the confidence that creates
            the world"; hveilan in trauainai sei fairhvu gaskapjiþ "resting in the
            trust that creates the world".

            LN




            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
            >
            > The poet strikes again!
            >
            > Just kidding. But I've tried to translate a poem.
            > I just need your ideas about my word choices and ways to express.
            >
            > The original from which I translated is in swedish so now I will try
            > to translate the same one to english for you to understand.
            > The english translation is probably much mor correct and the gothic
            > is more freely translated.
            >
            > Gothic first:
            >
            > Jai þannu agliþ
            >
            >
            > Jai þannu agliþ hvan bruteis bristand.
            > Duhvê sáinjái wêzr?
            > Duhvê bindada alla gaírnei unsara sô heitô
            > in þamma frusanin báitrafalwin?
            > Hulþs was bruts sa alla wintrus.
            > Hva ist þata niujô, þatei taíriþ jah spraggeiþ?
            > Jai þannu agliþ hvan bruteis bristand,
            > agliþ þamma wahsjandin
            > jah þamma lukandin.
            >
            > Jai þannu aglus ist hvan drupans driusand.
            > Reirands fram karai kauruba eis hahand,
            > haftjand sik ana taina, swilland, gleidand -
            > Dalaþ ins þinsai kaurus, hvaiwa kliggand.
            > Aglus wisan unwiss, faurhts jah skaidans,
            > Aglus ufkunnan diupein þo þinsandein jah haitandein,
            > nauh bileiban sitands jah þatain skudon -
            > aglus bileiban wiljan
            > jah driusan wiljan.
            >
            > Þan, hvan wairsist ist jah ni waihts hilpiþ,
            > Bristand swe in wunjai brusteis bagmis.
            > Þan, hvan ni faurhtei ju þanaseiþs haldiþ,
            > driusand in glitmunjai drupans tainis
            > ufarmaudjand þatei þlahsnanai wesun fram þamma niujin
            > ufarmaudjand þatei karanai wesun bi fara -
            > ufkunnun aina stika þo þwastiþa mikiliston seinon,
            > hveiland in þizai triggwein
            > þizaiei fairhvu gaskapjiþ.
            >
            >
            > And now, here's my affort to english translation:
            >
            > Yes it does hurt when sprouts/buds burst.
            > Why else would the spring hesitate?
            > Why would all our hot longing
            > be tied in the frozen bitterpale?
            > Hidden was the sprout the entire winter.
            > What's the new, tearing and blasting?
            > Yes it does hurt when sprouts burst,
            > hurting for the growing
            > and the closing
            >
            > Yes it's hard when dropps are falling.
            > Quaking by anxiety they're haning heavily,
            > clinging by the twig, swelling, gliding
            > the weight pulling them down, how they cling.
            > Hard to be uncertain, afraid and devided,
            > hard to feel the pulling and calling from the depth,
            > still remain sitting and just shiver
            > hard to wanting to stay
            > and wanting to fall
            >
            > Then, when it's worst and nothing helps,
            > bursting, like jubilation, the sprouts of the tree.
            > Then, when no fear no longer will hold
            > fall in a glitter the drops of the twig
            > forget that they were scared by the new
            > forget that they were anxious about the journey
            > feel for a second their greatest safety,
            > resting in the confidence
            > that creates the world
            >
            > Site of poeam
            > http://www.geocities.com/gutiska/glydian/poema.html
            >
            > Swedish:
            > http://www.karinboye.se/verk/dikter/dikter/ja-visst-gor-det-ont.shtml
            >
          • Fredrik
            ... nouns ... Are you sure about this, coz usually I consider what you say most believable but I m not convinced about this. First of all kniu and triu aint
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 29, 2008
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hails, Friþureik!
              >
              > Sorry it's taken me so long to reply to this; I've been a bit busy
              > lately...
              >
              > > niwi liuþ
              >
              > I think it would be 'niu' (or 'niujata') like the neuter ja-stem
              nouns
              > 'kniu' and 'triu'.
              >
              Are you sure about this, coz usually I consider what you say most
              believable but I'm not convinced about this.
              First of all kniu and triu aint ja-stems but wa-stems. And second of
              all shouldn't the j remain in neutre as midi from masculine midjis?
              Most likely it should be niuj which makes niwi.

              > > agliþ
              >
              > 'agleiþ' "it hurts" (with Sievers' Law: PGmc. *'ij' > Go. 'ei').
              >
              Ofcoz, this is absolutly correct, thnx.

              > > bruteis
              >
              > Köbler has *'bruts' and *'brutilo' for "bud", based on loanwords
              into
              > Romance. Do we have any clue as to what declension this *'bruts'
              would
              > belong to?
              >
              I don't know actually what declension this is. I guess it comes from
              the same root as in briutan. Do you know any similar cases when nouns
              are made from a verb like this and what declension they have?

              > > bristand
              >
              > Alternatively, you could use the attested verb 'keinan'
              or 'uskeinan':
              > Jai, agleiþ, þan brutilons uskeinand [...]
              >
              Is keinan a specific word for buds breaking out?

              > > Duhvê sáinjái wêzr?
              >
              > Some ways of saying "or else...?", "or for what other reason...?":
              >
              > aiþþau duhve sainjai wezr?
              > In hvis aljis sainjai wezr?
              > Duhve sainjai wezr, alja in þis?
              >
              In hvis aljis sainjai wezr, that sound good to me.

              > Alternatives to 'sainjai' using attested words:
              >
              > In hvis aljis qimai wezr us trigon? "...come reluctantly"
              > Hva aljis latjai wezr? "What else would delay spring? ...hold spring
              > back?"
              >
              > > Duhvê bindada alla gaírnei unsara sô heitô
              > > in þamma frusanin báitrafalwin?
              >
              > Duhve bindada alla gairnei unsara so haito in þamma frusanin
              baitrafalwin?
              >
              > ON 'heitr', OE 'hát', OS 'hêt', OHG 'heiz' would correspond to Go.
              > *'haits'.
              >
              Ofcoz, that should've been obvious to me. thnx.

              > > Hulþs was bruts sa alla wintrus.
              >
              > Accusative is used for an extent/stretch/period/duration of time:
              >
              > Allana wintru bruts huliþs was.
              > ...brutilo hulida was.
              >
              Good, i didn't know. so that's some kind of implicit 'during' meaning
              using accusative?
              i just forgot the i in huliþs (a typo)

              > > Hva ist þata niujô, þatei taíriþ jah spraggeiþ?
              >
              > Hva ist þata niujo, þatei disskreitiþ jah distairiþ?
              >
              > 'disskreitan' is used in the Gothic Bible for "tear" (clothes), and
              > 'distairan' for (cause to) burst (wine-bags which burst from
              > fermenting wine).
              >
              isn't the simple form tairan attested?
              what about spraggjan, is that attested somewhere?

              > > agliþ þamma wahsjandin
              > > jah þamma lukandin.
              >
              > That's one possibility. Another way of doing it would be to keep
              > those as relative clauses, and make the syntax more like Swedish
              than
              > Greek:
              >
              > Jai, agleiþ, þan brutilons uskeinand; agleiþ þamma, þatei liudiþ,
              jah
              > þamma, þatei galukiþ.
              > "Yes, it hurst when the buds burst; it hurts what grows, and what
              closes."
              >
              > 'agljan' takes a dative object for the person who is hurt.
              > Alternatively, instead of 'þamma, þatei', you can have just 'þammei'
              > (see Streitberg: Gotische Syntax, § 348).
              >
              > LN
              >
            • Fredrik
              ... what about þannu? I d like to make a difference between swedish ja and ja visst . ... þan ... question ... other ... that s probably a correct
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 29, 2008
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                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Some comments on the 2nd stanza:
                >
                > > Jai þannu aglus ist hvan drupans driusand.
                >
                what about þannu? I'd like to make a difference between swedish 'ja'
                and 'ja visst'.

                > I think I'd make the adjective neuter, like this: 'Jai, aglu ist,
                þan
                > drupans driusand.' Compare: hvaiwa aglu ist þaim hugjandam afar
                > faihau in þiudangardja gudis galeiþan (Mk 10:24). And I'd use 'þan'
                > or 'þanei' for "when", except where it's a direct or indirect
                question
                > - e.g. direct: hvan managans habaiþ hlaibans' "how many loaves have
                > you got?" (Mk 8:5). I can't find an example of an indirect question
                > with 'hvan' (that is, dependent on a verb meaning "ask", "know",
                > "understand", "discover", "prove"), but there are examples with
                other
                > interrogative pronouns: ak fraþjandans hva sijai wilja fraujins "but
                > understanding what the will of the Lord is" (Eph 5:17).
                >
                that's probably a correct observation.

                > > Reirands fram karai kauruba eis hahand,
                >
                > Masculine nominative plural 'reirandans'.
                >
                thnx

                > > haftjand sik ana taina, swilland, gleidand -
                >
                > haftjand sik taina/ansta (with dative and no preposition, e.g.
                > 'haftjandans godamma' "sticking to what is good" (R 12:9)).
                >
                > > Dalaþ ins þinsai kaurus, hvaiwa kliggand.
                >
                > 'kaurei ins dalaþ atþinsiþ' - compare the combinations 'dalaþ
                > atsteigan', 'dalaþ atgaggan'.
                >
                > > Aglus wisan unwiss, faurhts jah skaidans,
                >
                > Again, I'd use neuter, "it is hard": 'Aglu unwiss wisan, jah faurhts
                > jah skaidans,'
                >
                is it necessary to use jah so many times? in swedish it should be
                enough to use it as i did, i.e. not befor faurht but bnefore skaidans.

                > > Aglus ufkunnan diupein þo þinsandein jah haitandein,
                >
                > You could use infinitives:
                >
                > aglu diupiþa/diupein ufkunnan atþinsan jah athaitan
                > aglu diupiþai/diupein gaumjan atþinsan jah athaitan
                >
                > The most common form is 'diupiþa', but 'diupei' is also attested.
                >
                > > nauh bileiban sitands jah þatain skudon -
                >
                > sweþauh nauh sitan jah þatainei reiran,
                >
                what's sweþauh?
                what's the difference between þatain and þatainei?

                > *'skudon'? or *'skudjan' (OHG 'scuttan' > NHG 'schütten') or
                > *'skudison' (OHG 'scutisôn') or *'skutilon' (OHG 'scutilôn')? Is
                the
                > double 'dd' in Swedish 'skudda' due to it being a loanword from West
                > Germanic (Low German 'schudden'), where gemination was the rule
                before
                > /j/.
                I'm not familiar with that word 'gemination'. what's that?

                There's also a version with long [u:] in the root, represented
                > in MDu. 'schûderen' and NHG 'schaudern'.
                >
                > Alternatives: *'skakan', *'skilban'.
                >
                > > aglus bileiban wiljan
                > > jah driusan wiljan.
                >
                > aglu bileiban wiljan
                > jah driusan wiljan.
                >
                > I'd translate it the same way, except with neuter for the
                adjective.
                > We have a few other choices
                for "stay": 'wisan', 'gawisan', 'gastandan'.
                >
                > LN
                >
              • Fredrik
                ... of ... will ... could you make combinations of these in any way? like jah þaruh...? would þanuh, þan...sound repeatedly? ... brusteis/bristilons ...
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 29, 2008
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > > Þan, hvan wairsist ist
                  >
                  > Þanuh, biþe wairsist ist
                  > Þaruh, þan(ei) wairsist ist
                  > Jah þan, (swa)swe wairsist ist
                  >
                  > (Or any other combination of either 'þanuh', 'þaruh' or 'jah þan' +
                  > either 'biþe', 'þan(ei)' or '(swa)swe'. 'þan' at the very beginning
                  of
                  > a clause always means "when". As I mentioned in my previous post,
                  > 'hvan' would only be used in a direct or indirect question (e.g.
                  > direct: "when will they come?"; indirect: "I don't know when they
                  will
                  > come").
                  >
                  could you make combinations of these in any way?
                  like jah þaruh...?
                  would þanuh, þan...sound repeatedly?

                  > > jah ni waihts hilpiþ
                  >
                  > That's good. Equally acceptable alternatives: jah waihts ni hilpiþ;
                  > jah ni hilpiþ waihts.
                  >
                  > > Bristand swe in wunjai brusteis bagmis.
                  >
                  > The grammar looks fine to me, and you've got some good alliteration
                  > there. Alternatively, you could used the attested verb '(us)keinan':
                  > uskeinand swe in wunjai / in hlasein / miþ fahedai
                  brusteis/bristilons
                  > bagmis.
                  >
                  > > Þan, hvan ni faurhtei ju þanaseiþs haldiþ,
                  >
                  > þanuh, biþe waihts faurhteino/agise (ju) þanaseiþs/þanamais ni
                  haldiþ
                  >
                  is faurhteino genitive plural? so it means then, when thing of fears
                  no longer holds.
                  can faurhtei be used as i did?

                  > You've got a choice of word orders here. There is a tendency to
                  place
                  > 'ni' directly before the verb, but it's also not unusual to put it
                  > before words like 'waiht(s)' or 'þanaseiþs/þanamais', either as well
                  > as or instead of before the verb. Optionally, 'ni' can be placed at
                  > the beginning of the clause with the verb directly after it.
                  >
                  > > driusand in glitmunjai drupans tainis
                  >
                  > Good. (Or: driusand glitmunjandans drupans tainis.)
                  >
                  > > ufarmaudjand þatei
                  >
                  > Good, or: ufarmunnond þammei
                  >
                  > > þlahsnanai wesun
                  >
                  > Either 'þlahsidai wesun' or 'þlahsnodedun'.
                  >
                  nice, the latter sounds fine.

                  > > fram þamma niujin
                  >
                  > Good.
                  >
                  > > ufarmaudjand þatei karanai wesun bi fara -
                  >
                  > ufarmaudjand þatei ins *faros/wratodaus kara was
                  > ufarmunnond þammei [...]
                  >
                  I don't understand this at all, could you explain this further.
                  (i cannot make that sentence make any sence to me)

                  > > ufkunnun
                  >
                  > ufkunnand, weak class 3 [
                  > http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B076.html ].
                  >
                  > > aina stika
                  >
                  > The attested phrase is 'in stika melis' "in a moment of time",
                  > litterally a "point of time", L 4:5 (I'm not sure whether this means
                  > "immediately, without delay" or "just for a moment, after which the
                  > vision disappeared) [
                  > http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/browse/text/?book=3&chapter=4 ]. But
                  here
                  > you could maybe use the accusative expressing duration of time 'stik
                  > melis' "for a moment". 'stiks' is presumed to be a masculine i-stem,
                  > because of cognates, although it's only attested in Gothic this once
                  > in the dative singular.
                  >
                  should I still use the indefinite ain? would it be ainana stik melis?

                  > > þo þwastiþa mikiliston seinon,
                  >
                  > The possessive adjectives are only declined strong,
                  I have probably read that, but isnt smth I (obviously) have
                  remembered, thnx.

                  and the
                  > superlative of 'mikils' is 'maists': þo maiston þwastiþa seina;
                  > þwastiþa seina þo maiston.
                  >
                  yes ofcoz, this is probably the most stupid mistake anyone has done
                  ever.

                  > > hveiland in þizai triggwein
                  > > þizaiei fairhvu gaskapjiþ.
                  >
                  > I'd make this an accusative + infinitive construction: hveilan in
                  > stomin þatei fairhvu gaskapjiþ "resting in the confidence that
                  creates
                  > the world"; hveilan in trauainai sei fairhvu gaskapjiþ "resting in
                  the
                  > trust that creates the world".
                  >
                  could you really use infitinive here? hveilan still refers to the
                  drops, and the form used above as in uskunnand ends with -and, so
                  shouldnt hveilan also do that?
                  stomin, dative singular of stoma (weak masculine) right?
                  shouldn't þatei follow that and be þammei in that case?

                  > LN
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The poet strikes again!
                  > >
                  > > Just kidding. But I've tried to translate a poem.
                  > > I just need your ideas about my word choices and ways to express.
                  > >
                  > > The original from which I translated is in swedish so now I will
                  try
                  > > to translate the same one to english for you to understand.
                  > > The english translation is probably much mor correct and the
                  gothic
                  > > is more freely translated.
                  > >
                  > > Gothic first:
                  > >
                  > > Jai þannu agliþ
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Jai þannu agliþ hvan bruteis bristand.
                  > > Duhvê sáinjái wêzr?
                  > > Duhvê bindada alla gaírnei unsara sô heitô
                  > > in þamma frusanin báitrafalwin?
                  > > Hulþs was bruts sa alla wintrus.
                  > > Hva ist þata niujô, þatei taíriþ jah spraggeiþ?
                  > > Jai þannu agliþ hvan bruteis bristand,
                  > > agliþ þamma wahsjandin
                  > > jah þamma lukandin.
                  > >
                  > > Jai þannu aglus ist hvan drupans driusand.
                  > > Reirands fram karai kauruba eis hahand,
                  > > haftjand sik ana taina, swilland, gleidand -
                  > > Dalaþ ins þinsai kaurus, hvaiwa kliggand.
                  > > Aglus wisan unwiss, faurhts jah skaidans,
                  > > Aglus ufkunnan diupein þo þinsandein jah haitandein,
                  > > nauh bileiban sitands jah þatain skudon -
                  > > aglus bileiban wiljan
                  > > jah driusan wiljan.
                  > >
                  > > Þan, hvan wairsist ist jah ni waihts hilpiþ,
                  > > Bristand swe in wunjai brusteis bagmis.
                  > > Þan, hvan ni faurhtei ju þanaseiþs haldiþ,
                  > > driusand in glitmunjai drupans tainis
                  > > ufarmaudjand þatei þlahsnanai wesun fram þamma niujin
                  > > ufarmaudjand þatei karanai wesun bi fara -
                  > > ufkunnun aina stika þo þwastiþa mikiliston seinon,
                  > > hveiland in þizai triggwein
                  > > þizaiei fairhvu gaskapjiþ.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > And now, here's my affort to english translation:
                  > >
                  > > Yes it does hurt when sprouts/buds burst.
                  > > Why else would the spring hesitate?
                  > > Why would all our hot longing
                  > > be tied in the frozen bitterpale?
                  > > Hidden was the sprout the entire winter.
                  > > What's the new, tearing and blasting?
                  > > Yes it does hurt when sprouts burst,
                  > > hurting for the growing
                  > > and the closing
                  > >
                  > > Yes it's hard when dropps are falling.
                  > > Quaking by anxiety they're haning heavily,
                  > > clinging by the twig, swelling, gliding
                  > > the weight pulling them down, how they cling.
                  > > Hard to be uncertain, afraid and devided,
                  > > hard to feel the pulling and calling from the depth,
                  > > still remain sitting and just shiver
                  > > hard to wanting to stay
                  > > and wanting to fall
                  > >
                  > > Then, when it's worst and nothing helps,
                  > > bursting, like jubilation, the sprouts of the tree.
                  > > Then, when no fear no longer will hold
                  > > fall in a glitter the drops of the twig
                  > > forget that they were scared by the new
                  > > forget that they were anxious about the journey
                  > > feel for a second their greatest safety,
                  > > resting in the confidence
                  > > that creates the world
                  > >
                  > > Site of poeam
                  > > http://www.geocities.com/gutiska/glydian/poema.html
                  > >
                  > > Swedish:
                  > > http://www.karinboye.se/verk/dikter/dikter/ja-visst-gor-det-
                  ont.shtml
                  > >
                  >
                • llama_nom
                  ... You re right! Sorry about that. I don t know what I was thinking there... Yes: niwi , corresponding to neuter ja-stems like hawi , not neuter wa-stems
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 29, 2008
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                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
                    > >

                    > > I think it would be 'niu' (or 'niujata') like the neuter ja-stem
                    > nouns
                    > > 'kniu' and 'triu'.
                    > >
                    > Are you sure about this, coz usually I consider what you say most
                    > believable but I'm not convinced about this.
                    > First of all kniu and triu aint ja-stems but wa-stems. And second of
                    > all shouldn't the j remain in neutre as midi from masculine midjis?
                    > Most likely it should be niuj which makes niwi.

                    You're right! Sorry about that. I don't know what I was thinking
                    there... Yes: 'niwi', corresponding to neuter ja-stems like 'hawi',
                    not neuter wa-stems like 'kniu'.
                  • llama_nom
                    ... I don t know whether it would have been strictly limited to buds breaking out. It s hard to tell from the few attestations. But the examples suggest that
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 29, 2008
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                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@...> wrote:
                      >

                      >> Alternatively, you could use the attested verb 'keinan'
                      or 'uskeinan':
                      >> Jai, agleiþ, þan brutilons uskeinand [...]

                      > Is keinan a specific word for buds breaking out?

                      I don't know whether it would have been strictly limited to buds
                      breaking out. It's hard to tell from the few attestations. But the
                      examples suggest that it probably includes that meaning at least.
                      Streitberg offers the German translation '(hervor)keimen' [
                      http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B074.html ], Köbler
                      "(hervor)keimen", "germinate, sprout, bud". The simplex 'keiman'
                      translates Greek BLASTANEIN "to bud, sprout, grow"; 'uskeinan' Gk.
                      FUEIN, EKFUEIN, corresponding to Latin 'nasci', 'oriri', 'germinare'.
                      'miþuskeinan' translates Greek SUMFUESCAI = Latin 'simul exorti'
                      "spring up, sprout (with it)". It's used in the Gothic Bible of corn,
                      thorny plants, and leaves on a fig tree.
                    • llama_nom
                      ... using accusative? Yes. For example: Romans 10:21 A [...] allana dag usbraidida þos handuns meinos [...] — [...] all day long I have reached out my
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 30, 2008
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                        >> Accusative is used for an extent/stretch/period/duration of time:
                        >>
                        >> Allana wintru bruts huliþs was.
                        >> ...brutilo hulida was.

                        >Good, i didn't know. so that's some kind of implicit 'during' meaning
                        using accusative?

                        Yes. For example:

                        Romans 10:21
                        A [...] allana dag usbraidida þos handuns meinos [...]
                        — [...] all day long I have reached out my hands [...]

                        Corinthians I 16:6
                        B + A iþ at izwis waitei salja aiþþau jah wintru wisa, [...]
                        — and maybe I'll lodge with you, or even stay the winter, [...]

                        >> > Hva ist þata niujô, þatei taíriþ jah spraggeiþ?
                        >>
                        >> Hva ist þata niujo, þatei disskreitiþ jah distairiþ?
                        >>
                        >> 'disskreitan' is used in the Gothic Bible for "tear" (clothes), and
                        >> 'distairan' for (cause to) burst (wine-bags which burst from
                        >> fermenting wine).
                        >>

                        > isn't the simple form tairan attested?

                        Not as far as I know. Streitberg has no entry for the simplex, only
                        'dis-tairan' and 'ga-tairan' [
                        http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B137.html ].

                        > what about spraggjan, is that attested somewhere?

                        No.

                        > I'd like to make a difference between swedish 'ja'
                        and 'ja visst'.

                        For Go. 'ja', Streitberg has German "ja"; for Go. 'jai', "ja,
                        wahrlich, fürwahr" [
                        http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/html/B071.html ]. So I think
                        'jai' could well be emphatic enough, in comparison to the unemphatic 'ja'.

                        'jai' can also be an emphatic sign of the vocative: 'jai manna' W ANQRWPE.

                        'þannu (nu)', like 'nu' on its own, means something like "so" or
                        "therefore" or "...then". It's used to suggest that what is being said
                        now follows on logically or naturally from what has already been said.
                        In Romans 9:20 'þannu nu' translates Gk. MENOUNGE "no but", "but ...
                        indeed", or something like that [
                        http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3304 ].

                        Romans 9:20
                        þannu nu jai manna, þu hvas is ei andwaurdjai guda
                        = W ANQRWPE, MENOUNGE SU TIS EI hO ANTAPOKRINOMENOS TWi QEWi
                        "no but, oh man, who are you to answer back to GOd?"
                        "but who, then (in that case), are you, oh man [...]?"

                        In Romans 9:18, the 'jai' doesn't seem to correspond to anything in
                        the Greek, and has probably been added accidentally by a copyist, some
                        time in the history of the text, who got this line slightly mixed up
                        with verse 20 (Friedrichsen 1939: The Gothic Version of the Epistles,
                        pp. 83, 244).

                        Romans 9:18
                        þannu nu jai þanei wili armaiþ = ARA OUN hON QELEI ELEEI
                        therefore he shows mercy to the one he wishes
                        so he takes pity on the one he want to (take pity on)

                        >> > Aglus wisan unwiss, faurhts jah skaidans,
                        >>
                        >> Again, I'd use neuter, "it is hard": 'Aglu unwiss wisan, jah faurhts
                        >> jah skaidans,'
                        >>

                        > is it necessary to use jah so many times? in swedish it should be
                        enough to use it as i did, i.e. not befor faurht but bnefore skaidans.

                        I don't know for sure the answer to this. We could maybe look at lists
                        of nouns in the Gothic Bible (although these will probably all imitate
                        the Greek original) and in Old Norse, Old English, Old Saxon and Old
                        High German. That pattern A, B and C had a modern feel to me. A
                        couple of Old Norse examples:

                        tamdist hún meir við skot ok skjöld ok sverð en við sauma eða borða
                        "she practiced more with shot and shield and sword than with sewing or
                        embroidery" (But in English you could say "shot, shield and sword".)

                        hann var bæði mikill ok sterkr ok inn mesti garpr
                        "he was both big and strong and the greatest of heroes"

                        Old Norse sagas also sometimes list nouns in pairs like this: A and B,
                        C and D.

                        Hún var langleit ok harðleit, bjúgnefjuð ok baröxluð, svartleit ok
                        svipilkinnuð, fúlleit ok framsnoðin.
                        "She was long-faced and hard-faced, hook-nosed and had hunched up
                        shoulders, black-faced and wobbly-jowled, filthy-faced and bald at the
                        front."

                        More later...
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