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Re: Getica 129-130

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  • ualarauans
    ... Aha, here it is!! Tlazohcamati, huey Llama-tzé!
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 28 8:53 PM
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
      >
      > [...]
      > By the way, have you seen this:
      > Otto Maenchen-Helfen: The World of the Huns [
      > http://www.kroraina.com/huns/mh/ ]?

      Aha, here it is!! Tlazohcamati, huey Llama-tzé!
    • llama_nom
      ... I can t recall the reference right ... Aha, here it is: Terje Torgilstveit: Historisk presens i et utvalg islandske tætter
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 7, 2008
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        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
        > >
        I can't recall the reference right
        > now,
        > > but I remember reading somewhere that the narrative present is
        > alien
        > > to Eddic poetry, but already common in the earliest Icelandic
        > sagas.

        Aha, here it is:

        Terje Torgilstveit: Historisk presens i et utvalg islandske tætter

        http://www.ub.uib.no/elpub/2001/h/522003/Hovedoppgave.pdf

        Be warned, this is a big (dissertation-sizd) PDF file, 1 MB. The bit I
        was refering to is the section called "3.3 Bruken av historisk presens
        i islendingesagaene", pages 14-15.

        Ulrike Sprengers "Praesens historicum und Praeteritum in der
        altisländischen Saga" fra 1951 er fremdeles en sentral avhandling om
        tempusbruk i norrøn prosa.

        "U.Sp.'s "Historic present and preterite in the Icelandic sagas" from
        1951 remains a central thesis on the use of tenses in Old Norse prose."

        Innledningsvis skriver hun at man ikke kan, som f.eks. på latin,
        begrense bruken av historisk presens til noen få verbgrupper, heller
        ikke er bruken styrt av plassering, som f.eks. slutt eller begynnelse
        av et kapittel. Først undersøker hun Heiðarvígasaga, som hun regner
        som den eldste sagaen, og finner at historisk presens tallmessig klart
        er overlegen preteritum. Historisk presens er her tempus for den
        fortløpende fortelling, mens preteritum kun blir brukt om det enkelte,
        det særlige tilfelle. Hun mener å vise at noen av eksemplene på
        preteritum i sagaen kan hentyde til edda-strofer. Hun peker på at de
        overleverte strofene kun er en brøkdel av de samtiden kjente, og
        dermed kan årsaken til bruken av preteritum i Heiðarvígasaga være lån
        av faste fraser og lignende uttrykk som i edda-strofer. Fortelleren
        kan understreke `interkontekstualiteten' ved å skifte tempus til
        preteritum, som også er eddaens tempus. [...]

        "In her introduction, she writes that the historic present can't be
        limited, as in say Latin, to certain types of verb. Nor is it governed
        by placement: for example, being restricted to the end or beginning of
        a chapter. She first investigates Heiðarvíga saga, which she reckons
        to be the oldest saga, and finds that the historic present
        significantly predominates over the preterite. Here the historic
        present is the tense of continuous narrative, whereas the preterite
        can be used for the individual, the particular occasion. She believes
        she can show that some of the examples of the preterite in the saga
        may allude to Eddic verse. She points out that the surviving [Eddic]
        strophes are only a fragment of what was known at the time, and thus
        the reason for the use of the preterite in Heiðarvíga saga may be the
        borrowing of fixed phrases and similar expressions to those found in
        Eddic verse. The narrator can emphasis 'intertextuality' by switching
        the tense to the preterite, which is also the tense of the Edda. [...]"

        En problemstilling blir hvorfor de tidlige sagaene ikke har preteritum
        som hovedtempus, siden det blant eddastrofene og -prosaen kun finnes
        få eksempler på historisk presens. Den faste bruken av preteritum i
        eddadiktningen, mener hun er et middel for å skape avstand til de
        opphøyde helteskikkelsene. Forholdet mellom eddastrofene og de tidlige
        sagaene, skal således være av tilsvarende type som forholdet mellom
        Homers bruk av preteritum mot Vergils bruk av historisk presens.
        Homers tempusbruk skaper en følelse av forgangen tid, mens Vergil
        bevisst forsøkte å skape skikkelser som hans samtidige romere kunne
        tro på og ha som forbilder. Dernest viser hun til at bl.a. i eventyr
        vil ofte de realistiske partiene stå i historisk presens. Dermed blir
        det mer forståelig at sagaene, som nokså nøkternt omhandler islandsk
        bondeliv i sagatiden, benytter historisk presens. Siden historisk
        presens er hovedtempus åpner det seg også en mulighet for at veksling
        med preteritum kan benyttes som et middel for å fengsle tilhørere.

        "A question that might be asked here is why the early sagas don't have
        the preterite as their principle tense, since only a few examples of
        the historic present are to be found among the Eddic verse and prose.
        the fixed use of the preterite in Eddic poetry, she believes, is a
        means for creating distance from the lofty characters of the heroes.
        The relationship between Eddic verse and the early sagas would thus
        correspond to Homer's use of the preterite, as against Virgil's use of
        historic present. Homer's choice of tense creates a sense of times
        past, while Virgil certainly tried to create characters that his Roman
        contemporaries could believe in and take as examples. She goes on to
        show that in adventures, the realistic parts are often told in the
        historic present. Thus it is becomes more understandable that the
        sagas, which deal rather soberly with the lives of Icelandic farmers
        during the Saga Age, should use the historic present. Since the
        historic present is the main tense used, it can also open up the
        possibility of using the preterite to capture the audience's attention."

        **************************************************************

        So *maybe* the translator(s) of the Gothic Bible was/were familiar
        with such a distinction between an elevated
        preterite-only-for-past-events style appropriate for heroic lays and
        religious verse, and a more colloquial, everyday narrative style for
        regular storytelling.

        LN
      • kyrus88rook@aol.com
        afairzjan, airzjan (WV1) is class1 right? short-stem syllable, so Sing2,3, plur2 and Imp plur2 airzjis, airzjith, airzjith and airzjith, not airzeis, airzeith,
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 13, 2008
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          afairzjan, airzjan (WV1) is class1 right? short-stem syllable, so Sing2,3, plur2 and Imp plur2 airzjis, airzjith, airzjith and airzjith, not airzeis, airzeith, airzeith, airzeith? jith and jis do not look right to me, though.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • llama_nom
          ... Sing2,3, plur2 and Imp plur2 airzjis, airzjith, airzjith and airzjith, not airzeis, airzeith, airzeith, airzeith? jith and jis do not look right to me,
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 17, 2008
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            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, kyrus88rook@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > afairzjan, airzjan (WV1) is class1 right? short-stem syllable, so
            Sing2,3, plur2 and Imp plur2 airzjis, airzjith, airzjith and airzjith,
            not airzeis, airzeith, airzeith, airzeith? jith and jis do not look
            right to me, though.

            The root is long, even though it contains a short vowel, because it
            ends in more than one consonant (r + z), hence the attested 3rd person
            indicative singular 'airzeiþ'.

            Long roots are:

            1. roots which consist of more than one syllable (e.g. mikil-jan).

            2. roots which end in more than one consonant (e.g. manw-jan).

            3. roots consisting of single syllable containing a long vowel
            followed by a single consonant (e.g. náuþ-jan).


            (NOTE: Prefixes don't count as part of the root, so 'ga-lagjan' is a
            short root.)


            Short roots are everything else:

            1. roots consisting of a single syllable containing a short vowel
            followed by a single consonant (e.g. nas-jan, (ga-)lag-jan).

            2. roots consisting of a single syllable containing a long vowel not
            followed by any consonant (e.g. stô-jan).
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