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Re: Incarnation/Salvation

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  • tom.davidson@realtime.co.uk
    Hi Ginny and all. ... Reconciliation - the Redemption - is integral in the Incarnation to enable our salvation. There was never any doubt (in my mind) that
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 1 3:23 AM
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      Hi Ginny and all.

      > But what about reconciliation, isn't that the other half of the equation?

      Reconciliation - the Redemption - is integral in the Incarnation to enable our salvation. There was never any
      doubt (in my mind) that Christ would be crucified, He is the necessary sacrifice, the Hostage, the Ransom.

      > and the part that requires action or SOMETHING from us in return? Was God being presumptuous?

      It doesn't require something, it demands everything . . . all that we are. The trouble is, we think 'all that we
      are' is such a big deal, and it isn't, really, because whatever we give, we get back in abundance, and whatever
      we are, we are a pale reflection of the Divine Being. It's not that we won't give, but in the wanting to give, we
      won't let go.

      > Is the Grace of God, then, actually FREE?

      Yes, and no . . . Yes, for us, in that we cannot force nor coerce it . . . No, for God, in the sense that having
      made a contract God cannot break it because it is not in the Divine Nature to lie or to deceive. God is
      Absolute, and when He gives His word, He does so Absolutely. As Ravimaran says, God's Word is His bond -
      He would not create creation, and then abandon or ignore it.

      So the onus is on us. That is the Cross we have to bear, if only metaphorically - although the better we are,
      the bigger the burden, stigmata being the sign of that.

      > At least one human being paid the price.........And if we don't have to assume any responsibility for the cost, what incentive do we have to ACT upon anything in this earthly life?

      As Christians we do have to 'assume' the responsibility, even if we can't match it (although the criticism of
      being 'guilt-ridden' can be levelled at us. This is a result of an ungrounded sentimentalism - God doesn't want
      a glee-club, but I feel sure He doesn't want whipped dogs, either). The trick is not to crush ourselves or
      become craven with a false piety. Assuming the responsibility is getting on with the job on our own initiative.

      As humans the only true 'freedom' or 'choice' that we have is to accept or deny this responsibility - and the
      mark of denial is the degree by which a culture will engross itself with the meaningless and trivial (recognise
      the world?) which becomes so 'important'. The cry from the Cross "why hast thous forsaken me?" was the
      cry of the humanity of Christ, the cry of the soul. If He was crucified again today (which He is, in every living
      moment) the world would be standing round the foot of the cross, with its back turned, talking on mobile
      phones.

      His last words, "It is done" was the voice of the Divine.

      > But here's one more: How do we recognize, utilize and respond to the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, that Jesus promised He would send in His place?

      Big question, Ginny. What I will say, straight off, is that we don't utilize the Spirit, it utilizes us.

      Thomas
    • Niranjan C. Noronha
      Hi, When I saw the subject Incarnation/Salvation I got very interested because I am doing a research with regard to these two themes in John and try to
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 3 3:17 PM
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        Hi,

        When I saw the subject Incarnation/Salvation I got very interested because
        I am doing a research with regard to these two themes in John and try to
        understand its significance for issues of poverty and justice.
        Incarnation affirms the physical and material aspects of human existence
        and Johns understanding of salvation is very holistic. The word "life'
        in John speaks of the salvation that incarnation makes possible. And this
        life is not merely spiritual in content but takes into its purview every
        aspect of human existence. the situation of injustice and poverty are
        very dehumanising forces. They can be referred to in terms of "darkness"
        which is John's favourite word for describing the present human situation.
        Incarnation of the 'Logos" is meant to overcome this darkness. Thus
        incarnation signifies liberation.

        Niranjan
      • Bill Skelton
        Hi Niranjan Thanks for contributing the fruit of your reasearch and thought. I have a question for you (or anyone else) in response. You seem to be saying
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 3 6:39 PM
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          Hi Niranjan

          Thanks for contributing the fruit of your reasearch and thought. I have a
          question for you (or anyone else) in response.

          You seem to be saying that "incarnation" is the cause of "salvation" or
          leads to "salvation", if I have understood you correctly. If
          incarnation/salvation mean the overcoming of the "darkness" of the "present
          human situation" on every level, where does "Resurrection" fit into the
          picture. Or, to put it another way, why is Resurrection necessary?

          Bill Skelton
          wskelton76@...




          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Niranjan C. Noronha <nnoronh@...>
          To: <gospel_of_john@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: <gospel_of_john@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 6:17 PM
          Subject: Re: [Gosp_John] Re: Incarnation/Salvation


          > Hi,
          >
          > When I saw the subject Incarnation/Salvation I got very interested because
          > I am doing a research with regard to these two themes in John and try to
          > understand its significance for issues of poverty and justice.
          > Incarnation affirms the physical and material aspects of human existence
          > and Johns understanding of salvation is very holistic. The word "life'
          > in John speaks of the salvation that incarnation makes possible. And this
          > life is not merely spiritual in content but takes into its purview every
          > aspect of human existence. the situation of injustice and poverty are
          > very dehumanising forces. They can be referred to in terms of "darkness"
          > which is John's favourite word for describing the present human situation.
          > Incarnation of the 'Logos" is meant to overcome this darkness. Thus
          > incarnation signifies liberation.
          >
          > Niranjan
          >
          >
          >
          >
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