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Opinions on the fixed round order

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  • Josef Jelinek
    Hey, I am new in this group after rediscovering my interest from 20 years ago. I would like to have some feedback from you on the following thing that was
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 21, 2012
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      Hey,

      I am new in this group after rediscovering my interest from 20 years ago.

      I would like to have some feedback from you on the following thing that was bothering me when playing recently... Chaos is not known for the feeling of being fair, but with a fixed order of players each round, I feel for the last player in a round.

      Most of board games I played recently have some kind of token that marks the player to start the next round which is either passed to the next player after each round or a player can "buy" it to have the advantage until someone else does.

      Personally, I would like to see it as a spell that makes you start the next round, since then you are paying the price of not casting a spell and it introduces new tactics...

      What are your opinions? Do you feel that Chaos would benefit from it or is it would make it worse? Have any remakes introduced something similar?

      Cheers,
      Jj
    • Dan Condon-Jones
      It s interesting that you feel for the last player. When I used to play with my friends, the last player was the most popular because they could cast an
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 21, 2012
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        It's interesting that you feel for the last player. When I used to play with my friends, the last player was the most popular because they could cast an illusion dragon and be guaranteed to have it for a turn before anyone could disbelieve it.

        Dan

        On 21 Jun 2012, at 18:21, "Josef Jelinek" <josef.jelinek@...> wrote:

        > Hey,
        >
        > I am new in this group after rediscovering my interest from 20 years ago.
        >
        > I would like to have some feedback from you on the following thing that was bothering me when playing recently... Chaos is not known for the feeling of being fair, but with a fixed order of players each round, I feel for the last player in a round.
        >
        > Most of board games I played recently have some kind of token that marks the player to start the next round which is either passed to the next player after each round or a player can "buy" it to have the advantage until someone else does.
        >
        > Personally, I would like to see it as a spell that makes you start the next round, since then you are paying the price of not casting a spell and it introduces new tactics...
        >
        > What are your opinions? Do you feel that Chaos would benefit from it or is it would make it worse? Have any remakes introduced something similar?
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Jj
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sean A. Irvine
        Hi, I think you overly malign the last player. The last player does have some advantages in that you can confidently try Disbelieve/Dark Power/etc. in the
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 21, 2012
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          Hi,

          I think you overly malign the last player. The last player does have some
          advantages in that you can confidently try Disbelieve/Dark Power/etc. in the
          first round and have a reasonable chance of having something to do it on.
          Likewise as Dan notes, you can get an almost guaranteed turn with a strong
          illusion. When I play, I tend to be either the first or last player.

          Nevertheless, I understand your general sentiments that the play order does
          matter. In the past, I did try randomizing the play order every turn. This
          worked fine when playing against computer players, but was real annoying in
          a multiplayer human game because people would mistakenly pick spells for
          other players, end other players turns, and so on. Perhaps this could have
          been fixable by improving the way players were indicated.

          I thought one option would be to randomize the play order once at the
          beginning of the game. You would play in the same position for an entire
          game, but would not know until the game started what position you were.

          Another aspect is that in the original your play position determines your
          start position on the screen. In most of my clones, I have randomized
          that, so that although the wizards are still maximally spaced at the
          beginning you cannot predict exactly where you would start. That way
          you cannot guarantee getting one of the desirable corners to start in.

          Sean.

          On 06/22/12 05:21, Josef Jelinek wrote:
          > Hey,
          >
          > I am new in this group after rediscovering my interest from 20 years ago.
          >
          > I would like to have some feedback from you on the following thing that was bothering me when playing recently... Chaos is not known for the feeling of being fair, but with a fixed order of players each round, I feel for the last player in a round.
          >
          > Most of board games I played recently have some kind of token that marks the player to start the next round which is either passed to the next player after each round or a player can "buy" it to have the advantage until someone else does.
          >
          > Personally, I would like to see it as a spell that makes you start the next round, since then you are paying the price of not casting a spell and it introduces new tactics...
          >
          > What are your opinions? Do you feel that Chaos would benefit from it or is it would make it worse? Have any remakes introduced something similar?
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Jj
        • Josef Jelinek
          Hey, these are really good answers (Dan s too) so far, I was interested how the strategies may differ for different positions in a round. I saw the problem in
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 21, 2012
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            Hey,

            these are really good answers (Dan's too) so far, I was interested how the strategies may differ for different positions in a round.
            I saw the problem in casting illusions as the last one, that all others may attack (and often kill it) before it does any damage anyways, but that was just a feeling.

            Complete randomizing is not viable for more players for more reasons (everyone needs to pay attention all the time, and the game feels more chaotic - not in the intended way, you may even get two turns in a row, or everybody else have two turns sooner than you, etc.).

            Since I almost always played Chaos "forever alone" style, I wonder, if many people play together, they are allowed to watch other players select spells or not... this would benefit the last players a lot.

            Cheers,
            Jj

            --- In gooeyblob@yahoogroups.com, "Sean A. Irvine" <sairvin@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > I think you overly malign the last player. The last player does have some
            > advantages in that you can confidently try Disbelieve/Dark Power/etc. in the
            > first round and have a reasonable chance of having something to do it on.
            > Likewise as Dan notes, you can get an almost guaranteed turn with a strong
            > illusion. When I play, I tend to be either the first or last player.
            >
            > Nevertheless, I understand your general sentiments that the play order does
            > matter. In the past, I did try randomizing the play order every turn. This
            > worked fine when playing against computer players, but was real annoying in
            > a multiplayer human game because people would mistakenly pick spells for
            > other players, end other players turns, and so on. Perhaps this could have
            > been fixable by improving the way players were indicated.
            >
            > I thought one option would be to randomize the play order once at the
            > beginning of the game. You would play in the same position for an entire
            > game, but would not know until the game started what position you were.
            >
            > Another aspect is that in the original your play position determines your
            > start position on the screen. In most of my clones, I have randomized
            > that, so that although the wizards are still maximally spaced at the
            > beginning you cannot predict exactly where you would start. That way
            > you cannot guarantee getting one of the desirable corners to start in.
            >
            > Sean.
            >
            > On 06/22/12 05:21, Josef Jelinek wrote:
            > > Hey,
            > >
            > > I am new in this group after rediscovering my interest from 20 years ago.
            > >
            > > I would like to have some feedback from you on the following thing that was bothering me when playing recently... Chaos is not known for the feeling of being fair, but with a fixed order of players each round, I feel for the last player in a round.
            > >
            > > Most of board games I played recently have some kind of token that marks the player to start the next round which is either passed to the next player after each round or a player can "buy" it to have the advantage until someone else does.
            > >
            > > Personally, I would like to see it as a spell that makes you start the next round, since then you are paying the price of not casting a spell and it introduces new tactics...
            > >
            > > What are your opinions? Do you feel that Chaos would benefit from it or is it would make it worse? Have any remakes introduced something similar?
            > >
            > > Cheers,
            > > Jj
            >
          • Dan Condon-Jones
            My friends and I always used to play so it was friendly until all of the computer wizards were dead - then it was one rind of peace until the turn of the
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 21, 2012
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              My friends and I always used to play so it was friendly until all of the computer wizards were dead - then it was one rind of peace until the turn of the player who killed the last computer. Then it was war.

              While it was friendly we'd all be able to see each other's spells - but sometimes we'd hide whether it was real or not. When it was war then we'd do it in secret - but the others w old still see the screen so we'd know if the computer had asked whether to make it an illusion.

              Dan

              On 21 Jun 2012, at 23:31, "Josef Jelinek" <josef.jelinek@...> wrote:

              > Hey,
              >
              > these are really good answers (Dan's too) so far, I was interested how the strategies may differ for different positions in a round.
              > I saw the problem in casting illusions as the last one, that all others may attack (and often kill it) before it does any damage anyways, but that was just a feeling.
              >
              > Complete randomizing is not viable for more players for more reasons (everyone needs to pay attention all the time, and the game feels more chaotic - not in the intended way, you may even get two turns in a row, or everybody else have two turns sooner than you, etc.).
              >
              > Since I almost always played Chaos "forever alone" style, I wonder, if many people play together, they are allowed to watch other players select spells or not... this would benefit the last players a lot.
              >
              > Cheers,
              > Jj
              >
              > --- In gooeyblob@yahoogroups.com, "Sean A. Irvine" <sairvin@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi,
              > >
              > > I think you overly malign the last player. The last player does have some
              > > advantages in that you can confidently try Disbelieve/Dark Power/etc. in the
              > > first round and have a reasonable chance of having something to do it on.
              > > Likewise as Dan notes, you can get an almost guaranteed turn with a strong
              > > illusion. When I play, I tend to be either the first or last player.
              > >
              > > Nevertheless, I understand your general sentiments that the play order does
              > > matter. In the past, I did try randomizing the play order every turn. This
              > > worked fine when playing against computer players, but was real annoying in
              > > a multiplayer human game because people would mistakenly pick spells for
              > > other players, end other players turns, and so on. Perhaps this could have
              > > been fixable by improving the way players were indicated.
              > >
              > > I thought one option would be to randomize the play order once at the
              > > beginning of the game. You would play in the same position for an entire
              > > game, but would not know until the game started what position you were.
              > >
              > > Another aspect is that in the original your play position determines your
              > > start position on the screen. In most of my clones, I have randomized
              > > that, so that although the wizards are still maximally spaced at the
              > > beginning you cannot predict exactly where you would start. That way
              > > you cannot guarantee getting one of the desirable corners to start in.
              > >
              > > Sean.
              > >
              > > On 06/22/12 05:21, Josef Jelinek wrote:
              > > > Hey,
              > > >
              > > > I am new in this group after rediscovering my interest from 20 years ago.
              > > >
              > > > I would like to have some feedback from you on the following thing that was bothering me when playing recently... Chaos is not known for the feeling of being fair, but with a fixed order of players each round, I feel for the last player in a round.
              > > >
              > > > Most of board games I played recently have some kind of token that marks the player to start the next round which is either passed to the next player after each round or a player can "buy" it to have the advantage until someone else does.
              > > >
              > > > Personally, I would like to see it as a spell that makes you start the next round, since then you are paying the price of not casting a spell and it introduces new tactics...
              > > >
              > > > What are your opinions? Do you feel that Chaos would benefit from it or is it would make it worse? Have any remakes introduced something similar?
              > > >
              > > > Cheers,
              > > > Jj
              > >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sean A. Irvine
              Likewise, we also had the same rule. Kill the AI wizards first. Didn t stop some humans just hiding and letting the others do the work, so they would still
              Message 6 of 6 , Jun 21, 2012
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                Likewise, we also had the same rule. Kill the AI wizards first.
                Didn't stop some humans just hiding and letting the others do
                the work, so they would still have lots of goodies left for the
                real human fight.

                Sean.

                On 06/22/12 10:59, Dan Condon-Jones wrote:
                > My friends and I always used to play so it was friendly until all of the computer wizards were dead - then it was one rind of peace until the turn of the player who killed the last computer. Then it was war.
                >
                > While it was friendly we'd all be able to see each other's spells - but sometimes we'd hide whether it was real or not. When it was war then we'd do it in secret - but the others w old still see the screen so we'd know if the computer had asked whether to make it an illusion.
                >
                > Dan
                >
                > On 21 Jun 2012, at 23:31, "Josef Jelinek" <josef.jelinek@... <mailto:josef.jelinek%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                >
                > > Hey,
                > >
                > > these are really good answers (Dan's too) so far, I was interested how the strategies may differ for different positions in a round.
                > > I saw the problem in casting illusions as the last one, that all others may attack (and often kill it) before it does any damage anyways, but that was just a feeling.
                > >
                > > Complete randomizing is not viable for more players for more reasons (everyone needs to pay attention all the time, and the game feels more chaotic - not in the intended way, you may even get two turns in a row, or everybody else have two turns sooner than you, etc.).
                > >
                > > Since I almost always played Chaos "forever alone" style, I wonder, if many people play together, they are allowed to watch other players select spells or not... this would benefit the last players a lot.
                > >
                > > Cheers,
                > > Jj
                > >
                > > --- In gooeyblob@yahoogroups.com <mailto:gooeyblob%40yahoogroups.com>, "Sean A. Irvine" <sairvin@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi,
                > > >
                > > > I think you overly malign the last player. The last player does have some
                > > > advantages in that you can confidently try Disbelieve/Dark Power/etc. in the
                > > > first round and have a reasonable chance of having something to do it on.
                > > > Likewise as Dan notes, you can get an almost guaranteed turn with a strong
                > > > illusion. When I play, I tend to be either the first or last player.
                > > >
                > > > Nevertheless, I understand your general sentiments that the play order does
                > > > matter. In the past, I did try randomizing the play order every turn. This
                > > > worked fine when playing against computer players, but was real annoying in
                > > > a multiplayer human game because people would mistakenly pick spells for
                > > > other players, end other players turns, and so on. Perhaps this could have
                > > > been fixable by improving the way players were indicated.
                > > >
                > > > I thought one option would be to randomize the play order once at the
                > > > beginning of the game. You would play in the same position for an entire
                > > > game, but would not know until the game started what position you were.
                > > >
                > > > Another aspect is that in the original your play position determines your
                > > > start position on the screen. In most of my clones, I have randomized
                > > > that, so that although the wizards are still maximally spaced at the
                > > > beginning you cannot predict exactly where you would start. That way
                > > > you cannot guarantee getting one of the desirable corners to start in.
                > > >
                > > > Sean.
                > > >
                > > > On 06/22/12 05:21, Josef Jelinek wrote:
                > > > > Hey,
                > > > >
                > > > > I am new in this group after rediscovering my interest from 20 years ago.
                > > > >
                > > > > I would like to have some feedback from you on the following thing that was bothering me when playing recently... Chaos is not known for the feeling of being fair, but with a fixed order of players each round, I feel for the last player in a round.
                > > > >
                > > > > Most of board games I played recently have some kind of token that marks the player to start the next round which is either passed to the next player after each round or a player can "buy" it to have the advantage until someone else does.
                > > > >
                > > > > Personally, I would like to see it as a spell that makes you start the next round, since then you are paying the price of not casting a spell and it introduces new tactics...
                > > > >
                > > > > What are your opinions? Do you feel that Chaos would benefit from it or is it would make it worse? Have any remakes introduced something similar?
                > > > >
                > > > > Cheers,
                > > > > Jj
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
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