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hebrew on OpenOffice

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  • YigalB
    Hi I installed OpenOffice on Fedora core 2 - it works OK - but I can t write hebrew characters. Any idea what should I do ? I installed hebrew as CTL, used the
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 31, 2004
      Message
      Hi
       
      I installed OpenOffice on Fedora core 2 - it works OK - but I can't write hebrew characters. Any idea what should I do ?
       
      I installed hebrew as CTL, used the "right to left"

      or the CTRL-right shift, but still - all chars are English.

      What did I miss ?

      Yigal

    • Shlomi Fish
      ... You need to set up Xkb (X-keyboard) to input Hebrew characters: http://iglu.org.il/faq/cache/86.html Regards, Shlomi Fish ... -- ... Shlomi Fish
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 31, 2004
        On Sunday 31 October 2004 18:17, YigalB wrote:
        > Hi
        >
        > I installed OpenOffice on Fedora core 2 - it works OK - but I can't
        > write hebrew characters. Any idea what should I do ?
        >
        > I installed hebrew as CTL, used the "right to left"
        >
        > or the CTRL-right shift, but still - all chars are English.
        >
        > What did I miss ?
        >

        You need to set up Xkb (X-keyboard) to input Hebrew characters:

        http://iglu.org.il/faq/cache/86.html

        Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

        > Yigal

        --

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
        Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

        Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
      • YigalB
        ... Thank you - but the link you gave me is very complicated and needs a dis-assembly in order to be read by a human. Is there a simple way to do it ?
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 31, 2004
          >On Sunday 31 October 2004 18:17, YigalB wrote:
          >> Hi
          >>
          >> I installed OpenOffice on Fedora core 2 - it works OK - but I can't
          >> write hebrew characters. Any idea what should I do ?
          >>
          >> I installed hebrew as CTL, used the "right to left"
          >>
          >> or the CTRL-right shift, but still - all chars are English.
          >>
          >> What did I miss ?
          >>
          >
          >You need to set up Xkb (X-keyboard) to input Hebrew characters:
          >
          >http://iglu.org.il/faq/cache/86.html
          >
          >Regards,
          >
          > Shlomi Fish
          >

          Thank you - but the link you gave me is very complicated and needs a
          dis-assembly in order to be read by a human. Is there a simple way to do
          it ?
        • shahaf bs
          ok i had these problem not to long ago with DEB a/ install culmus b/ install the OO heb support c/ can u write heb carecters on other programs?? ... have fun
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 31, 2004
            ok i had these problem not to long ago with DEB
            a/ install "culmus"
            b/ install the OO heb support
            c/ can u write heb carecters on other programs??
                if not enter here it shows how to convert  the keyboard with kde:
                  
            http://linmagazine.co.il/book/view/4328
            have fun



            YigalB wrote:
            >On Sunday 31 October 2004 18:17, YigalB wrote:
            >> Hi
            >>
            >> I installed OpenOffice on Fedora core 2 - it works OK - but I can't
            >> write hebrew characters. Any idea what should I do ?
            >>
            >> I installed hebrew as CTL, used the "right to left"
            >>
            >> or the CTRL-right shift, but still - all chars are English.
            >>
            >> What did I miss ?
            >>
            >
            >You need to set up Xkb (X-keyboard) to input Hebrew characters:
            >
            >http://iglu.org.il/faq/cache/86.html
            >
            >Regards,
            >
            >      Shlomi Fish
            >

            Thank you - but the link you gave me is very complicated and needs a
            dis-assembly in order to be read by a human. Is there a simple way to do
            it ?



          • Shlomi Fish
            ... Just say:
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 1, 2004
              On Sunday 31 October 2004 20:46, YigalB wrote:
              > >On Sunday 31 October 2004 18:17, YigalB wrote:
              > >> Hi
              > >>
              > >> I installed OpenOffice on Fedora core 2 - it works OK - but I can't
              > >> write hebrew characters. Any idea what should I do ?
              > >>
              > >> I installed hebrew as CTL, used the "right to left"
              > >>
              > >> or the CTRL-right shift, but still - all chars are English.
              > >>
              > >> What did I miss ?
              > >
              > >You need to set up Xkb (X-keyboard) to input Hebrew characters:
              > >
              > >http://iglu.org.il/faq/cache/86.html
              > >
              > >Regards,
              > >
              > >      Shlomi Fish
              >
              > Thank you - but the link you gave me is very complicated and needs a
              > dis-assembly in order to be read by a human. Is there a simple way to do
              > it ?

              Just say:

              <<<
              Section "InputDevice"
              Identifier "Keyboard1"
              Driver "keyboard"
              Option "XkbModel" "pc105"
              Option "XkbLayout" "us,il"
              Option "XkbCompat" ""
              Option "XkbOptions" "grp:switch,grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll"
              EndSection
              >>>

              in your XF86Config file.

              Regards,

              Shlomi Fish

              ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
              Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

              Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
            • Errol Sapir
              Shlomi Shalom I include a long detailed explanation of how I finally wrote Hebrew in Fedore 2. The original thread is number 2728 in this forum. Will be glad
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 1, 2004
                Shlomi Shalom

                I include a long detailed explanation of how I finally wrote Hebrew in
                Fedore 2. The original thread is number 2728 in this forum. Will be glad
                to answer questions although I'm no expert in Fedora.

                Errol

                Uri
                Thanks for your interest in solving to open office problem I had with
                writing Hebrew. I managed to solve the problem and reported my solution
                on the 00o forum. I am reprinting it here for this forum.
                Here is my solution which works for me!
                Errol

                I'm not sure that what I'm about to describe is the best or correct way
                of writing Hebrew in Open Office programs an Fedora core 2. It is the
                way I got to write Hebrew using OO after MANY unsuccessful attempts. For
                the sake of this article I am reconstructing from memory and trying to
                put into logical order what was three or four weeks of trial and error.

                Hopefully this will help others with the same problem.
                The problem was that I could write Hebrew anywhere in Linux, EXCEPT in
                Open Office.
                I want to thank all members of the Ooo-H & gnubies-il forums who aided
                me in solving the problem. I want to thank three people in particular,
                at the risk of forgetting others (to them I apologize). Thanks to
                Shoshannah Fobes who started me on the right track, to Tzafrir Cohen who
                plodded on with advice when it seemed (to me) that I was getting nowhere
                and to Yatzchak Gale who put the final piece in the puzzle.

                Background and clarifications
                I installed Fedora core 2 as a textual setup. For some reason the CD's
                on my computer wouldn't do a graphical installation. I don't think this
                had any effect on what came later, because after installation everything
                worked OK.
                I installed the complete installation – i.e. all the packages that came
                on the 4 CD's.
                I did the English installation and added Hebrew as another language to
                be installed.
                The OO installation that came with Fedora worked OK without Hebrew. In
                my many attempts to solve the Hebrew problem, I also installed
                Linux-Culmus from the www.linux.org.il site. BOTH versions of Linux
                reacted in the same way to Hebrew writing.
                I am using the KDE format but had the same problems when in Gnome.
                The first step was to go to the site
                http://easylinux.jokie.net/hebrew.html It is a site written in Hebrew
                and offers many ways of setting up Linux to work with Hebrew. I applied
                the setup for the parameters which I wanted. I wanted English interface
                with Hebrew possibilities. I have translated the stages I used from that
                site.

                Stages I went through.
                1.Define the keyboard so that ALT/SHIFT toggles between English and Hebrew.
                i. Open the Terminal by pressing the Start menu button>system
                tools>terminal.
                ii. In the terminal type "su" (without the quotes) to get root and then
                your root password.
                Iii. Now type:
                kate /home/user/.Xkbmap
                The word “user” is replaced by your user name.
                iv. Then type:
                -option grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp:switch,grp_led:scroll us,il
                note the “-” sign that starts the string.
                v. Save the file.

                2.Define Hebrew in the system (but keeping English interface).
                i. As root in the terminal type:
                kate /etc/sysconfig/i18n
                ii. Change whatever is written in the file that appears to: (keep the
                quotes, upper and lower-case)
                LC_CTYPE="he_IL"
                LANG="en_US.UTF-8"
                SUPPORTED="en_US.UTF-8:en_US:en:he_IL.UTF-8:he_IL:he:he_IL.ISO-8859-

                8:hebrew:he_IL.UTF-8"
                (Note: from SUPPORTED to the last quote should all be on one line)
                SYSFONT="latarcyrheb-sun16"
                iii. Save the file.

                3.Defining the directories and files to support Hebrew names.
                i. As root in the terminal type:
                kate /etc/fstab
                ii.The next command is placed in the fourth column (after the word
                "defaults")
                defaults,iocharset=iso8859-8,codepage=862
                As you will see when opening this file, there are many lines one could
                write the above string on.
                As a relative newbie to Linux I'm not sure exactly on which line is the
                correct one. I tried several places and at the moment it is in the same
                line as "/sys". That could be the wrong place! Input anyone?

                4.The final problem and it's solution (at least for me).

                After doing all of the above my problems really became confusing to me.

                I was able to write Hebrew anywhere in Fedora – in terminal, in any
                place that text could be written! The ONLY place Hebrew would not type
                was in any of the Open Office programs. Here is where Yitzchak Gale gave
                me the push I needed.
                i. After much corresponding on the forum he asked me to type:
                LC_CTYPE=C oowriter &
                at the shell prompt. This command opened the oowriter with the ability
                to write Hebrew. Eureka!!

                ii. Now the problem became how to make this permanent i.e. so that
                whenever one opens the OO the ability to write in Hebrew would be
                possible. My workaround enables me to open any of the OO programs and
                write Hebrew and use different Hebrew fonts etc. It seems the every
                version of Linux sees the OO files in a different way. I'll try and explain.
                Yitzchak suggested to me the following:
                1.Right-click the OOo icon on the panel.
                2. Select Properties.
                3. Select the Execute tab.
                4. Modify the text in the Command field as follows:
                i. Leave all of the existing text. Before the existing
                text add the following new text:

                /bin/env LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8

                ii. Make sure that there is a space after the new text
                to separate it from the existing text.

                5.Click OK.

                When trying the above that I found no “execute” tab inproperties of OO
                programs.
                In Fedora core 2 when pressing on properties on any of the OO progams,
                the properties box comes up with three tabs - “general”, “permissions” &
                “application”. When opening the application tab, there arevarious text
                boxes. In the one called “command” is written the name ofthe OO program
                - “oowriter”, “oocalc” or “ooimprress”. BEFORE those names I added the
                original command given to me by Yitzchak and then a space before the
                name of the program. So the command box under the application tab now reads:
                LC_CTYPE=C oowriter
                I repeated this for each of the OO programs and am happy to say that I
                can now write Hebrew in ALL of the OO programs. So the other two
                programs also have a new line in the command:
                LC_CTYPE=C ooimpress
                and
                LC_CTYPE=C oocalc

                I hope these instructions are clear and will be only too willing to
                clarify anything. It is essential to keep all upper and lower –case
                letters as typed here.

                Shlomi Fish wrote:

                > On Sunday 31 October 2004 20:46, YigalB wrote:
                > > >On Sunday 31 October 2004 18:17, YigalB wrote:
                > > >> Hi
                > > >>
                > > >> I installed OpenOffice on Fedora core 2 - it works OK - but I can't
                > > >> write hebrew characters. Any idea what should I do ?
                > > >>
                > > >> I installed hebrew as CTL, used the "right to left"
                > > >>
                > > >> or the CTRL-right shift, but still - all chars are English.
                > > >>
                > > >> What did I miss ?
                > > >
                > > >You need to set up Xkb (X-keyboard) to input Hebrew characters:
                > > >
                > > >http://igluorg.il/faq/cache/86.html
                > <http://iglu.org.il/faq/cache/86.html>
                > > >
                > > >Regards,
                > > >
                > > > Shlomi Fish
                > >
                > > Thank you - but the link you gave me is very complicated and needs a
                > > dis-assembly in order to be read by a human. Is there a simple way to do
                > > it ?
                >
                > Just say:
                >
                > <<<
                > Section "InputDevice"
                > Identifier "Keyboard1"
                > Driver "keyboard"
                > Option "XkbModel" "pc105"
                > Option "XkbLayout" "us,il"
                > Option "XkbCompat" ""
                > Option "XkbOptions" "grp:switch,grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll"
                > EndSection
                > >>>
                >
                > in your XF86Config file.
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Shlomi Fish
                >
              • YigalB
                Hello all Thank you all for the help! From the short time I am into Linux I know to appreciate people who devote their free time and knowladge to help others.
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 1, 2004
                  Hello all

                  Thank you all for the help!
                  From the short time I am into Linux I know to appreciate people who
                  devote their free time and knowladge to help others. Lol Hakavod.

                  But from the functionality side - I am sorry to say it's no good. If I
                  have to open directories or edit configuration files to do such a simple
                  action - then something is not ready to be used at home. And don't
                  misunderstand - I wrote software in my life, including complicated Unix
                  scripts and real time assembly, but at home I would expect a two
                  keysrokes and a flag marking. I wanted to install Linux for my kids PCs,
                  but at this stage I will stay with the bad guys from Redmond. Linux is
                  not as ready for the non-english yet. I admit that installing the Fedora
                  was very easy and I could have it working including internet connection
                  in no time.

                  Again - thank you all. I hate when the bad guys win - but as my daughter
                  told me - don't bother is I can't type hebrew and play Sims2.

                  Yigal


                  >-----Original Message-----
                  >From: Errol Sapir [mailto:errol@...]
                  >Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 1:06 PM
                  >To: gnubies-il@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [gnubies-il] hebrew on OpenOffice
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Shlomi Shalom
                  >
                  >I include a long detailed explanation of how I finally wrote Hebrew in
                  >Fedore 2. The original thread is number 2728 in this forum.
                  >Will be glad
                  >to answer questions although I'm no expert in Fedora.
                  >
                  >Errol
                  >
                  >Uri
                  >Thanks for your interest in solving to open office problem I
                  >had with writing Hebrew. I managed to solve the problem and
                  >reported my solution on the 00o forum. I am reprinting it here
                  >for this forum. Here is my solution which works for me! Errol
                  >
                  >I'm not sure that what I'm about to describe is the best or
                  >correct way of writing Hebrew in Open Office programs an
                  >Fedora core 2. It is the way I got to write Hebrew using OO
                  >after MANY unsuccessful attempts. For the sake of this article
                  >I am reconstructing from memory and trying to put into logical
                  >order what was three or four weeks of trial and error.
                  >
                  >Hopefully this will help others with the same problem.
                  >The problem was that I could write Hebrew anywhere in Linux,
                  >EXCEPT in Open Office. I want to thank all members of the
                  >Ooo-H & gnubies-il forums who aided me in solving the problem.
                  >I want to thank three people in particular, at the risk of
                  >forgetting others (to them I apologize). Thanks to Shoshannah
                  >Fobes who started me on the right track, to Tzafrir Cohen who
                  >plodded on with advice when it seemed (to me) that I was
                  >getting nowhere and to Yatzchak Gale who put the final piece
                  >in the puzzle.
                  >
                  >Background and clarifications
                  >I installed Fedora core 2 as a textual setup. For some reason
                  >the CD's on my computer wouldn't do a graphical installation.
                  >I don't think this had any effect on what came later, because
                  >after installation everything worked OK. I installed the
                  >complete installation - i.e. all the packages that came on the
                  >4 CD's. I did the English installation and added Hebrew as
                  >another language to be installed. The OO installation that
                  >came with Fedora worked OK without Hebrew. In my many attempts
                  >to solve the Hebrew problem, I also installed Linux-Culmus
                  >from the www.linux.org.il site. BOTH versions of Linux reacted
                  >in the same way to Hebrew writing. I am using the KDE format
                  >but had the same problems when in Gnome. The first step was to
                  >go to the site http://easylinux.jokie.net/hebrew.html It is a
                  >site written in Hebrew and offers many ways of setting up
                  >Linux to work with Hebrew. I applied the setup for the
                  >parameters which I wanted. I wanted English interface with
                  >Hebrew possibilities. I have translated the stages I used from
                  >that site.
                  >
                  >Stages I went through.
                  >1.Define the keyboard so that ALT/SHIFT toggles between
                  >English and Hebrew. i. Open the Terminal by pressing the Start
                  >menu button>system
                  >tools>terminal.
                  >ii. In the terminal type "su" (without the quotes) to get root
                  >and then your root password. Iii. Now type: kate
                  >/home/user/.Xkbmap The word "user" is replaced by your user
                  >name. iv. Then type: -option
                  >grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp:switch,grp_led:scroll us,il note the
                  >"-" sign that starts the string. v. Save the file.
                  >
                  >2.Define Hebrew in the system (but keeping English interface).
                  >i. As root in the terminal type: kate /etc/sysconfig/i18n ii.
                  >Change whatever is written in the file that appears to: (keep
                  >the quotes, upper and lower-case) LC_CTYPE="he_IL" LANG="en_US.UTF-8"
                  >SUPPORTED="en_US.UTF-8:en_US:en:he_IL.UTF-8:he_IL:he:he_IL.ISO-8859-
                  >
                  >8:hebrew:he_IL.UTF-8"
                  >(Note: from SUPPORTED to the last quote should all be on one
                  >line) SYSFONT="latarcyrheb-sun16" iii. Save the file.
                  >
                  >3.Defining the directories and files to support Hebrew names.
                  >i. As root in the terminal type: kate /etc/fstab ii.The next
                  >command is placed in the fourth column (after the word
                  >"defaults")
                  >defaults,iocharset=iso8859-8,codepage=862
                  >As you will see when opening this file, there are many lines
                  >one could write the above string on. As a relative newbie to
                  >Linux I'm not sure exactly on which line is the correct one. I
                  >tried several places and at the moment it is in the same line
                  >as "/sys". That could be the wrong place! Input anyone?
                  >
                  >4.The final problem and it's solution (at least for me).
                  >
                  >After doing all of the above my problems really became confusing to me.
                  >
                  >I was able to write Hebrew anywhere in Fedora - in terminal,
                  >in any place that text could be written! The ONLY place Hebrew
                  >would not type was in any of the Open Office programs. Here is
                  >where Yitzchak Gale gave me the push I needed. i. After much
                  >corresponding on the forum he asked me to type: LC_CTYPE=C
                  >oowriter & at the shell prompt. This command opened the
                  >oowriter with the ability to write Hebrew. Eureka!!
                  >
                  >ii. Now the problem became how to make this permanent i.e. so
                  >that whenever one opens the OO the ability to write in Hebrew
                  >would be possible. My workaround enables me to open any of the
                  >OO programs and write Hebrew and use different Hebrew fonts
                  >etc. It seems the every version of Linux sees the OO files in
                  >a different way. I'll try and explain. Yitzchak suggested to
                  >me the following: 1.Right-click the OOo icon on the panel. 2.
                  >Select Properties. 3. Select the Execute tab. 4. Modify the
                  >text in the Command field as follows: i. Leave all of the
                  >existing text. Before the existing text add the following new text:
                  >
                  >/bin/env LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8
                  >
                  >ii. Make sure that there is a space after the new text
                  >to separate it from the existing text.
                  >
                  >5.Click OK.
                  >
                  >When trying the above that I found no "execute" tab
                  >inproperties of OO programs. In Fedora core 2 when pressing on
                  >properties on any of the OO progams, the properties box comes
                  >up with three tabs - "general", "permissions" & "application".
                  >When opening the application tab, there arevarious text boxes.
                  >In the one called "command" is written the name ofthe OO program
                  >- "oowriter", "oocalc" or "ooimprress". BEFORE those names I
                  >added the original command given to me by Yitzchak and then a
                  >space before the name of the program. So the command box under
                  >the application tab now reads: LC_CTYPE=C oowriter I repeated
                  >this for each of the OO programs and am happy to say that I
                  >can now write Hebrew in ALL of the OO programs. So the other
                  >two programs also have a new line in the command: LC_CTYPE=C
                  >ooimpress and LC_CTYPE=C oocalc
                  >
                  >I hope these instructions are clear and will be only too
                  >willing to clarify anything. It is essential to keep all upper
                  >and lower -case letters as typed here.
                  >
                  >Shlomi Fish wrote:
                  >
                  >> On Sunday 31 October 2004 20:46, YigalB wrote:
                  >> > >On Sunday 31 October 2004 18:17, YigalB wrote:
                  >> > >> Hi
                  >> > >>
                  >> > >> I installed OpenOffice on Fedora core 2 - it works OK - but I
                  >> > >> can't write hebrew characters. Any idea what should I do ?
                  >> > >>
                  >> > >> I installed hebrew as CTL, used the "right to left"
                  >> > >>
                  >> > >> or the CTRL-right shift, but still - all chars are English.
                  >> > >>
                  >> > >> What did I miss ?
                  >> > >
                  >> > >You need to set up Xkb (X-keyboard) to input Hebrew characters:
                  >> > >
                  >> > >http://igluorg.il/faq/cache/86.html
                  >> <http://iglu.org.il/faq/cache/86.html>
                  >> > >
                  >> > >Regards,
                  >> > >
                  >> > > Shlomi Fish
                  >> >
                  >> > Thank you - but the link you gave me is very complicated
                  >and needs a
                  >> > dis-assembly in order to be read by a human. Is there a simple way
                  >> > to do it ?
                  >>
                  >> Just say:
                  >>
                  >> <<<
                  >> Section "InputDevice"
                  >> Identifier "Keyboard1"
                  >> Driver "keyboard"
                  >> Option "XkbModel" "pc105"
                  >> Option "XkbLayout" "us,il"
                  >> Option "XkbCompat" ""
                  >> Option "XkbOptions" "grp:switch,grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll"
                  >> EndSection
                  >> >>>
                  >>
                  >> in your XF86Config file.
                  >>
                  >> Regards,
                  >>
                  >> Shlomi Fish
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  >--------------------~-->
                  >$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
                  >http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/0XFolB/TM
                  >
                  >---------------------------------------------------------------
                  >-----~->
                  >
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Shlomi Fish
                  ... Actually, we were talking in how to do it for all distributions, including the most minimalistic ones. In KDE in Mandrake 10.1 Official, I can configure it
                  Message 8 of 24 , Nov 1, 2004
                    On Monday 01 November 2004 13:18, YigalB wrote:
                    > Hello all
                    >
                    > Thank you all for the help!
                    > From the short time I am into Linux I know to appreciate people who
                    > devote their free time and knowladge to help others. Lol Hakavod.
                    >
                    > But from the functionality side - I am sorry to say it's no good. If I
                    > have to open directories or edit configuration files to do such a simple
                    > action - then something is not ready to be used at home. And don't
                    > misunderstand - I wrote software in my life, including complicated Unix
                    > scripts and real time assembly, but at home I would expect a two
                    > keysrokes and a flag marking.

                    Actually, we were talking in how to do it for all distributions, including the
                    most minimalistic ones. In KDE in Mandrake 10.1 Official, I can configure it
                    like this:

                    Control Center -> Accessibility -> Keyboard Layout.

                    Which is GUIish and everything.

                    > I wanted to install Linux for my kids PCs,
                    > but at this stage I will stay with the bad guys from Redmond.  Linux is
                    > not as ready for the non-english yet.

                    Why not? You configure it once, and then have it ready for the rest of your
                    life.

                    > I admit that installing the Fedora
                    > was very easy and I could have it working including internet connection
                    > in no time.
                    >
                    > Again - thank you all. I hate when the bad guys win - but as my daughter
                    > told me - don't bother is I can't type hebrew and play Sims2.
                    >

                    She can type Hebrew. I don't know about Sims2, though.

                    Note that Windows has many problems of its own: viruses, worms,
                    spywares/ad-wares, no automatic updates for anything that isn't from
                    Microsoft, SP 2 that breaks a lot of things, etc. Some things there are very
                    hard to configure and get right as well.

                    There's no need to give up on Linux just because you need to edit a few text
                    files. That's better than Windows which if you want to configure something
                    from the command line, you have to do a lot of research because everyone
                    knows to do it only from the GUI.

                    Regards,

                    Shlomi Fish

                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                    Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

                    Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
                  • YigalB
                    ... I have FC2, and I have two ways to access the keyboard GUI - it just give one button: OK. No buttom to ADD or change setup. In Preferences I found Israel
                    Message 9 of 24 , Nov 1, 2004
                      >> But from the functionality side - I am sorry to say it's no
                      >good. If
                      >> I have to open directories or edit configuration files to do such a
                      >> simple action - then something is not ready to be used at home. And
                      >> don't misunderstand - I wrote software in my life, including
                      >> complicated Unix scripts and real time assembly, but at
                      >home I would
                      >> expect a two keysrokes and a flag marking.
                      >
                      >Actually, we were talking in how to do it for all
                      >distributions, including the
                      >most minimalistic ones. In KDE in Mandrake 10.1 Official, I
                      >can configure it
                      >like this:
                      >
                      >Control Center -> Accessibility -> Keyboard Layout.
                      >
                      >Which is GUIish and everything.
                      I have FC2, and I have two ways to access the keyboard GUI - it just
                      give one button: OK. No buttom to ADD or change setup. In Preferences I
                      found "Israel layout" - and I added it - but nothing changes.


                      >> I wanted to install Linux for my kids PCs,
                      >> but at this stage I will stay with the bad guys from
                      >Redmond.  Linux is
                      >> not as ready for the non-english yet.

                      >Why not? You configure it once, and then have it ready for the
                      >rest of your
                      >life.
                      Nothig is for the rest of my life - each computer should and goes
                      changes. I don't want to have those small notes with small text files. I
                      have 5 PCs at home and I need it to be fast and easy.


                      >> Again - thank you all. I hate when the bad guys win - but as my
                      >> daughter told me - don't bother is I can't type hebrew and play
                      >> Sims2.
                      >>
                      >She can type Hebrew. I don't know about Sims2, though.
                      Currently - she can't.

                      >Note that Windows has many problems of its own: viruses, worms,
                      >spywares/ad-wares, no automatic updates for anything that isn't from
                      >Microsoft, SP 2 that breaks a lot of things, etc. Some things
                      >there are very
                      >hard to configure and get right as well.
                      >
                      >There's no need to give up on Linux just because you need to
                      >edit a few text
                      >files. That's better than Windows which if you want to
                      >configure something
                      >from the command line, you have to do a lot of research
                      >because everyone
                      >knows to do it only from the GUI.
                      I agree that I hate the "Only GUI" approach of wondows - but I suffer
                      also from the "command line only when you need to change something" of
                      Linux. I want GUI for setting and command line for scripts. My best
                      dream is to have a script that will log all changes I do in the OS - so
                      I can reconstruct the installation in 0 time. But look: no GUI to change
                      to hebrew.
                      Mature OS can't afford that.



                      >
                      >Regards,
                      >
                      > Shlomi Fish
                      >
                      >---------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                      >Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/
                      >
                      >Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
                      >
                      >
                      >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >--------------------~-->
                      >$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
                      >http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/0XFolB/TM
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                    • Nigel Ridley
                      On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:36:01 +0200 ... Hi YigalB, I too have daughters that want to play Sims and do their homework. I also have 4 computer, 5 when I get around
                      Message 10 of 24 , Nov 1, 2004
                        On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:36:01 +0200
                        "YigalB" <byigal@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > >> But from the functionality side - I am sorry to say it's no
                        > >good. If
                        > >> I have to open directories or edit configuration files to do such
                        > >a > simple action - then something is not ready to be used at home.
                        > >And > don't misunderstand - I wrote software in my life, including
                        > >> complicated Unix scripts and real time assembly, but at
                        > >home I would
                        > >> expect a two keysrokes and a flag marking.
                        > >
                        > >Actually, we were talking in how to do it for all
                        > >distributions, including the
                        > >most minimalistic ones. In KDE in Mandrake 10.1 Official, I
                        > >can configure it
                        > >like this:
                        > >
                        > >Control Center -> Accessibility -> Keyboard Layout.
                        > >
                        > >Which is GUIish and everything.
                        > I have FC2, and I have two ways to access the keyboard GUI - it just
                        > give one button: OK. No buttom to ADD or change setup. In Preferences
                        > I found "Israel layout" - and I added it - but nothing changes.
                        >
                        >
                        > >> I wanted to install Linux for my kids PCs,
                        > >> but at this stage I will stay with the bad guys from
                        > >Redmond.  Linux is
                        > >> not as ready for the non-english yet.
                        >
                        > >Why not? You configure it once, and then have it ready for the
                        > >rest of your
                        > >life.
                        > Nothig is for the rest of my life - each computer should and goes
                        > changes. I don't want to have those small notes with small text files.
                        > I have 5 PCs at home and I need it to be fast and easy.
                        >
                        >
                        > >> Again - thank you all. I hate when the bad guys win - but as my
                        > >> daughter told me - don't bother is I can't type hebrew and play
                        > >> Sims2.
                        > >>
                        > >She can type Hebrew. I don't know about Sims2, though.
                        > Currently - she can't.
                        >
                        > >Note that Windows has many problems of its own: viruses, worms,
                        > >spywares/ad-wares, no automatic updates for anything that isn't from
                        > >Microsoft, SP 2 that breaks a lot of things, etc. Some things
                        > >there are very
                        > >hard to configure and get right as well.
                        > >
                        > >There's no need to give up on Linux just because you need to
                        > >edit a few text
                        > >files. That's better than Windows which if you want to
                        > >configure something
                        > >from the command line, you have to do a lot of research
                        > >because everyone
                        > >knows to do it only from the GUI.
                        > I agree that I hate the "Only GUI" approach of wondows - but I suffer
                        > also from the "command line only when you need to change something" of
                        > Linux. I want GUI for setting and command line for scripts. My best
                        > dream is to have a script that will log all changes I do in the OS -
                        > so I can reconstruct the installation in 0 time. But look: no GUI to
                        > change to hebrew.
                        > Mature OS can't afford that.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > >Regards,
                        > >
                        > > Shlomi Fish
                        > >
                        > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > >Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                        > >Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/
                        > >
                        > >Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
                        > >

                        Hi YigalB,
                        I too have daughters that want to play Sims and do their homework. I
                        also have 4 computer, 5 when I get around to switching some hardware
                        around, and have not had any problems getting Hebrew to work with
                        OpenOffice.
                        I must admit that I don't like RPM distros and hence use a Debian based
                        one instead (Libranet). It was very easy to install and using 'apt' is
                        so easy when I need to install or upgrade software.

                        I use KDE and it was simple to get Hebrew working -- Start button
                        >Settings >Control Center >Regional & Accessibility >Keyboard Layout
                        >Check the 'Enable keyboard layouts', then choose 'Israeli' and then
                        >click on the 'Add' button, then 'Apply'. You will see an American flag
                        >on your tool bar; click it to switch languages.

                        For the Sims I just dual boot with Win98.

                        HTH.

                        Blessings,

                        Nigel

                        --
                        It's not a problem -- it's a learning opportunity.
                        --

                        I AM Bible Studies and Resources
                        http://www.i-amfaithweb.net

                        Messianic E-Cards.com
                        http://www.messianicecards.com

                        OliveRoot Ministries
                        http://www.oliveroot.net

                        Praying For Israel.net
                        http://www.prayingforisrael.net
                      • Shlomi Fish
                        ... I see. Well I cannot speal for FC2 because I m using Mandrake. Maybe it works better in Mandrake. FC is known for being buggy. ... Well, in Windows you
                        Message 11 of 24 , Nov 1, 2004
                          On Monday 01 November 2004 14:36, YigalB wrote:
                          > >>  But from the functionality side - I am sorry to say it's no
                          > >
                          > >good. If
                          > >
                          > >> I  have to open directories or edit configuration files to do such a
                          > >> simple  action - then something is not ready to be used at home. And
                          > >> don't  misunderstand - I wrote software in my life, including
                          > >> complicated Unix  scripts and real time assembly, but at
                          > >
                          > >home I would
                          > >
                          > >> expect a two  keysrokes and a flag marking.
                          > >
                          > >Actually, we were talking in how to do it for all
                          > >distributions, including the
                          > >most minimalistic ones. In KDE in Mandrake 10.1 Official, I
                          > >can configure it
                          > >like this:
                          > >
                          > >Control Center -> Accessibility -> Keyboard Layout.
                          > >
                          > >Which is GUIish and everything.
                          >
                          > I have FC2, and I have two ways to access the keyboard GUI - it just
                          > give one button: OK. No buttom to ADD or change setup. In Preferences I
                          > found "Israel layout" - and I added it - but nothing changes.
                          >

                          I see. Well I cannot speal for FC2 because I'm using Mandrake. Maybe it works
                          better in Mandrake. FC is known for being buggy.

                          > >>  I wanted to install Linux for my kids PCs,
                          > >>  but at this stage I will stay with the bad guys from
                          > >
                          > >Redmond.  Linux is
                          > >
                          > >>  not as ready for the non-english yet.
                          > >
                          > >Why not? You configure it once, and then have it ready for the
                          > >rest of your
                          > >life.
                          >
                          > Nothig is for the rest of my life - each computer should and goes
                          > changes. I don't want to have those small notes with small text files. I
                          > have 5 PCs at home and I need it to be fast and easy.
                          >

                          Well, in Windows you also need to do a few things with the GUI to adapt it to
                          your needs. For each computer, or account that is opened.

                          I always had to tweak Windows to work like I want it to. And it takes some
                          time.

                          > >>  Again - thank you all. I hate when the bad guys win - but as my
                          > >> daughter  told me - don't bother is I can't type hebrew and play
                          > >> Sims2.
                          > >
                          > >She can type Hebrew. I don't know about Sims2, though.
                          >
                          > Currently - she can't.
                          >

                          Well, after you modify this - she can.

                          > >Note that Windows has many problems of its own: viruses, worms,
                          > >spywares/ad-wares, no automatic updates for anything that isn't from
                          > >Microsoft, SP 2 that breaks a lot of things, etc. Some things
                          > >there are very
                          > >hard to configure and get right as well.
                          > >
                          > >There's no need to give up on Linux just because you need to
                          > >edit a few text
                          > >files. That's better than Windows which if you want to
                          > >configure something
                          > >from the command line, you have to do a lot of research
                          > >because everyone
                          > >knows to do it only from the GUI.
                          >
                          > I agree that I hate the "Only GUI" approach of wondows - but I suffer
                          > also from the "command line only when you need to change something" of
                          > Linux. I want GUI for setting and command line for scripts. My best
                          > dream is to have a script that will log all changes I do in the OS - so
                          > I can reconstruct the installation in 0 time. But look: no GUI to change
                          > to hebrew.
                          > Mature OS can't afford that.

                          Like I said, such a GUI exists in Mandrake. Maybe you should switch to
                          Mandrake? (After 10.1 comes out)

                          As a general rule, I don't mind using a CLI to change some settings. This way
                          it's more transparent and I don't feel like I don't know what's going behind
                          my back.

                          Regards,

                          Shlomi Fish

                          ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                          Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

                          Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
                        • Shlomi Fish
                          ... Well, RPM has nothing to do with it. Please don t generalize to RPM-based distros . There are many different RPM based distro s around. I m using Mandrake
                          Message 12 of 24 , Nov 1, 2004
                            On Monday 01 November 2004 16:35, Nigel Ridley wrote:
                            > Hi YigalB,
                            > I too have daughters that want to play Sims and do their homework. I
                            > also have 4 computer, 5 when I get around to switching some hardware
                            > around, and have not had any problems getting Hebrew to work with
                            > OpenOffice.
                            > I must admit that I don't like RPM distros and hence use a Debian based
                            > one instead (Libranet). It was very easy to install and using 'apt' is
                            > so easy when I need to install or upgrade software.
                            >

                            Well, RPM has nothing to do with it. Please don't generalize to "RPM-based
                            distros". There are many different RPM based distro's around. I'm using
                            Mandrake and it's perfectly fine. You have urpmi instead of apt (even though
                            I think apt4rpm can be installed). And Mandrake has much more
                            GUI-configuration tools available than Debian.

                            > I use KDE and it was simple to get Hebrew working -- Start button
                            >
                            > >Settings >Control Center >Regional & Accessibility >Keyboard Layout
                            > >Check the 'Enable keyboard layouts', then choose 'Israeli' and then
                            > >click on the 'Add' button, then 'Apply'. You will see an American flag
                            > >on your tool bar; click it to switch languages.
                            >
                            > For the Sims I just dual boot with Win98.
                            >

                            Regards,

                            Shlomi Fish

                            --

                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                            Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

                            Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
                          • YigalB
                            ... I don t have Control Center on my FC2. I do have System Setting - and even keyboard there, but no ability to change it. ... Dual boot is something I don t
                            Message 13 of 24 , Nov 1, 2004
                              >I use KDE and it was simple to get Hebrew working -- Start button
                              >>Settings >Control Center >Regional & Accessibility >Keyboard Layout
                              >>Check the 'Enable keyboard layouts', then choose 'Israeli' and then
                              >>click on the 'Add' button, then 'Apply'. You will see an
                              >American flag
                              >>on your tool bar; click it to switch languages.
                              I don't have Control Center on my FC2. I do have System Setting - and
                              even keyboard there, but no ability to change it.

                              >For the Sims I just dual boot with Win98.
                              Dual boot is something I don't like: it takes time to restart instead
                              simple task switching. I prefer to have one OS.
                            • Nigel Ridley
                              On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:06:08 +0200 ... Sorry, I should have explained better: I got fed up using Mandrake, not because it was Mandrake but because it was an RPM
                              Message 14 of 24 , Nov 1, 2004
                                On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:06:08 +0200
                                Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:

                                >
                                > On Monday 01 November 2004 16:35, Nigel Ridley wrote:
                                > > Hi YigalB,
                                > > I too have daughters that want to play Sims and do their homework.
                                > > I also have 4 computer, 5 when I get around to switching some
                                > > hardware around, and have not had any problems getting Hebrew to
                                > > work with OpenOffice.
                                > > I must admit that I don't like RPM distros and hence use a Debian
                                > > based one instead (Libranet). It was very easy to install and using
                                > > 'apt' is so easy when I need to install or upgrade software.
                                > >
                                >
                                > Well, RPM has nothing to do with it. Please don't generalize to
                                > "RPM-based distros". There are many different RPM based distro's
                                > around. I'm using Mandrake and it's perfectly fine. You have urpmi
                                > instead of apt (even though I think apt4rpm can be installed). And
                                > Mandrake has much more GUI-configuration tools available than Debian.

                                Sorry, I should have explained better: I got fed up using Mandrake, not
                                because it was Mandrake but because it was an RPM based distro and
                                trying install new software was sometimes a bit of a nightmare
                                because of dependency issues (commonly known as 'rpm hell'); Debian
                                based distros don't suffer from this problem.

                                As for gui tools, Libranet (Debian based) has all that is necessary and
                                are very easy to use.

                                >
                                > > I use KDE and it was simple to get Hebrew working -- Start button
                                > >
                                > > >Settings >Control Center >Regional & Accessibility >Keyboard
                                > > >Layout Check the 'Enable keyboard layouts', then choose 'Israeli'
                                > > >and then click on the 'Add' button, then 'Apply'. You will see an
                                > > >American flag on your tool bar; click it to switch languages.
                                > >
                                > > For the Sims I just dual boot with Win98.
                                > >
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                >
                                > Shlomi Fish
                                >
                                > --
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                > Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/
                                >
                                > Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
                                >

                                Blessings,

                                Nigel

                                --
                                It's not a problem -- it's a learning opportunity.
                                --

                                I AM Bible Studies and Resources
                                http://www.i-amfaithweb.net

                                Messianic E-Cards.com
                                http://www.messianicecards.com

                                OliveRoot Ministries
                                http://www.oliveroot.net

                                Praying For Israel.net
                                http://www.prayingforisrael.net
                              • Nigel Ridley
                                On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:20:28 +0200 ... I was referring to the KDE Control Center. ... Have you considered VMware or Win4Lin? They allow you to run Windows on
                                Message 15 of 24 , Nov 1, 2004
                                  On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:20:28 +0200
                                  "YigalB" <byigal@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  > >I use KDE and it was simple to get Hebrew working -- Start button
                                  > >>Settings >Control Center >Regional & Accessibility >Keyboard Layout
                                  > >>Check the 'Enable keyboard layouts', then choose 'Israeli' and then
                                  > >>click on the 'Add' button, then 'Apply'. You will see an
                                  > >American flag
                                  > >>on your tool bar; click it to switch languages.
                                  > I don't have Control Center on my FC2. I do have System Setting - and
                                  > even keyboard there, but no ability to change it.

                                  I was referring to the KDE Control Center.

                                  >
                                  > >For the Sims I just dual boot with Win98.
                                  > Dual boot is something I don't like: it takes time to restart instead
                                  > simple task switching. I prefer to have one OS.

                                  Have you considered VMware or Win4Lin? They allow you to run Windows on
                                  top of Linux and you can switch between them without having to reboot.

                                  >
                                  >

                                  Blessings,

                                  Nigel


                                  --
                                  It's not a problem -- it's a learning opportunity.
                                  --

                                  I AM Bible Studies and Resources
                                  http://www.i-amfaithweb.net

                                  Messianic E-Cards.com
                                  http://www.messianicecards.com

                                  OliveRoot Ministries
                                  http://www.oliveroot.net

                                  Praying For Israel.net
                                  http://www.prayingforisrael.net
                                • YigalB
                                  ... I assume you were reffering to something else - but my problem is with what I have. I am sure other systems have their own solutions ... I was told it will
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Nov 1, 2004
                                    >> >>on your tool bar; click it to switch languages.
                                    >> I don't have Control Center on my FC2. I do have System
                                    >Setting - and
                                    >> even keyboard there, but no ability to change it.
                                    >I was referring to the KDE Control Center.
                                    I assume you were reffering to something else - but my problem is with
                                    what I have. I am sure other systems have their own solutions

                                    >> >For the Sims I just dual boot with Win98.
                                    >> Dual boot is something I don't like: it takes time to
                                    >restart instead
                                    >> simple task switching. I prefer to have one OS.
                                    >
                                    >Have you considered VMware or Win4Lin? They allow you to run
                                    >Windows on top of Linux and you can switch between them
                                    >without having to reboot.
                                    I was told it will not work with applications that are tight coupled to
                                    HW, such as directX and others.
                                  • Shlomi Fish
                                    ... Well, in Mandrake you have urpmi and other tools like that that works very well, and eliminate this RPM hell . RPM is just a packaging format like .deb.
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Nov 2, 2004
                                      On Monday 01 November 2004 20:17, Nigel Ridley wrote:
                                      > On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:06:08 +0200
                                      >
                                      > Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
                                      > > On Monday 01 November 2004 16:35, Nigel Ridley wrote:
                                      > > >  Hi YigalB,
                                      > > >  I too have daughters that want to play Sims and do their homework.
                                      > > >  I also have 4 computer, 5 when I get around to switching some
                                      > > >  hardware around, and have not had any problems getting Hebrew to
                                      > > >  work with OpenOffice.
                                      > > >  I must admit that I don't like RPM distros and hence use a Debian
                                      > > >  based one instead (Libranet). It was very easy to install and using
                                      > > >  'apt' is so easy when I need to install or upgrade software.
                                      > >
                                      > > Well, RPM has nothing to do with it. Please don't generalize to
                                      > > "RPM-based distros". There are many different RPM based distro's
                                      > > around. I'm using Mandrake and it's perfectly fine. You have urpmi
                                      > > instead of apt (even though I think apt4rpm can be installed). And
                                      > > Mandrake has much more GUI-configuration tools available than Debian.
                                      >
                                      > Sorry, I should have explained better: I got fed up using Mandrake, not
                                      > because it was Mandrake but because it was an RPM based distro and
                                      > trying install new software was sometimes a bit of a nightmare
                                      > because of dependency issues (commonly known as 'rpm hell'); Debian
                                      > based distros don't suffer from this problem.
                                      >

                                      Well, in Mandrake you have urpmi and other tools like that that works very
                                      well, and eliminate this "RPM hell". RPM is just a packaging format
                                      like .deb. You can build dependency resolvers on top of it, and that's what
                                      exists now.


                                      > As for gui tools, Libranet (Debian based) has all that is necessary and
                                      > are very easy to use.
                                      >

                                      I see.

                                      Regards,

                                      Shlomi Fish

                                      ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                      Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

                                      Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
                                    • YigalB
                                      Can someone explain, or is there any comparison table to compare between all those falvors? It looks to me a waste to have so many versions - and to me.. A
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Nov 2, 2004
                                        Can someone explain, or is there any comparison table to compare between
                                        all those falvors?

                                        It looks to me a waste to have so many versions - and to me.. A
                                        newbie... I have no idea what to choose.

                                        If possible, include hebrew support in that comparison.

                                        Thanks
                                        Yigal

                                        >-----Original Message-----
                                        >From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
                                        >Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 10:36 AM
                                        >To: gnubies-il@yahoogroups.com
                                        >Subject: Re: [gnubies-il] hebrew on OpenOffice
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >On Monday 01 November 2004 20:17, Nigel Ridley wrote:
                                        >> On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:06:08 +0200
                                        >>
                                        >> Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
                                        >> > On Monday 01 November 2004 16:35, Nigel Ridley wrote:
                                        >> > >  Hi YigalB,
                                        >> > >  I too have daughters that want to play Sims and do their
                                        >> homework. > >  I also have 4 computer, 5 when I get around to
                                        >> switching some > >  hardware around, and have not had any problems
                                        >> getting Hebrew to > >  work with OpenOffice. > >  I must
                                        >admit that
                                        >> I don't like RPM distros and hence use a Debian > >  based one
                                        >> instead (Libranet). It was very easy to install and using >
                                        >>  'apt'
                                        >> is so easy when I need to install or upgrade software. >
                                        >> > Well, RPM has nothing to do with it. Please don't generalize to
                                        >> > "RPM-based distros". There are many different RPM based distro's
                                        >> > around. I'm using Mandrake and it's perfectly fine. You have urpmi
                                        >> > instead of apt (even though I think apt4rpm can be installed). And
                                        >> > Mandrake has much more GUI-configuration tools available
                                        >than Debian.
                                        >>
                                        >> Sorry, I should have explained better: I got fed up using Mandrake,
                                        >> not because it was Mandrake but because it was an RPM based distro
                                        >> and trying install new software was sometimes a bit of a nightmare
                                        >> because of dependency issues (commonly known as 'rpm hell'); Debian
                                        >> based distros don't suffer from this problem.
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >Well, in Mandrake you have urpmi and other tools like that
                                        >that works very
                                        >well, and eliminate this "RPM hell". RPM is just a packaging format
                                        >like .deb. You can build dependency resolvers on top of it,
                                        >and that's what
                                        >exists now.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >> As for gui tools, Libranet (Debian based) has all that is necessary
                                        >> and are very easy to use.
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >I see.
                                        >
                                        >Regards,
                                        >
                                        > Shlomi Fish
                                        >
                                        >---------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        >Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                        >Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/
                                        >
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                                      • Tzafrir Cohen
                                        ... You could just as well have said that Debian is a deb-based distribution with its own deb-hell . You should use apt/yum/urpmi and not rpm directly, as
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
                                          On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 08:17:04PM +0200, Nigel Ridley wrote:
                                          >
                                          > On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:06:08 +0200
                                          > Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > On Monday 01 November 2004 16:35, Nigel Ridley wrote:
                                          > > > Hi YigalB,
                                          > > > I too have daughters that want to play Sims and do their homework.
                                          > > > I also have 4 computer, 5 when I get around to switching some
                                          > > > hardware around, and have not had any problems getting Hebrew to
                                          > > > work with OpenOffice.
                                          > > > I must admit that I don't like RPM distros and hence use a Debian
                                          > > > based one instead (Libranet). It was very easy to install and using
                                          > > > 'apt' is so easy when I need to install or upgrade software.
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Well, RPM has nothing to do with it. Please don't generalize to
                                          > > "RPM-based distros". There are many different RPM based distro's
                                          > > around. I'm using Mandrake and it's perfectly fine. You have urpmi
                                          > > instead of apt (even though I think apt4rpm can be installed). And
                                          > > Mandrake has much more GUI-configuration tools available than Debian.
                                          >
                                          > Sorry, I should have explained better: I got fed up using Mandrake, not
                                          > because it was Mandrake but because it was an RPM based distro and
                                          > trying install new software was sometimes a bit of a nightmare
                                          > because of dependency issues (commonly known as 'rpm hell'); Debian
                                          > based distros don't suffer from this problem.

                                          You could just as well have said that Debian is a deb-based distribution
                                          with its own 'deb-hell' . You should use apt/yum/urpmi and not rpm
                                          directly, as much as you usually don't use dpkg directly on Debian.

                                          >
                                          > As for gui tools, Libranet (Debian based) has all that is necessary and
                                          > are very easy to use.

                                          But it also means you use an external source of packages. It is not
                                          exactly Debian.

                                          --
                                          Tzafrir Cohen +---------------------------+
                                          http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend|
                                          mailto:tzafrir@... +---------------------------+
                                        • Tzafrir Cohen
                                          ... vmware (and the free alternative qemu) will work, but chances are that all the directx will be run through software implementation rather than accelerated
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
                                            On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 08:27:49PM +0200, YigalB wrote:

                                            > >> >For the Sims I just dual boot with Win98.
                                            > >> Dual boot is something I don't like: it takes time to
                                            > >restart instead
                                            > >> simple task switching. I prefer to have one OS.
                                            > >
                                            > >Have you considered VMware or Win4Lin? They allow you to run
                                            > >Windows on top of Linux and you can switch between them
                                            > >without having to reboot.
                                            > I was told it will not work with applications that are tight coupled to
                                            > HW, such as directX and others.

                                            vmware (and the free alternative qemu) will work, but chances are that
                                            all the directx will be run through software implementation rather than
                                            accelerated hardware implementation, so you'd loose speed .

                                            --
                                            Tzafrir Cohen +---------------------------+
                                            http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend|
                                            mailto:tzafrir@... +---------------------------+
                                          • Shoshannah Forbes
                                            ... Well, no. Each distro is meant for different people with different tastes and habits (for example, some people don t like using GUI s for configuration,
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
                                              On 02/11/2004, at 12:37, YigalB wrote:
                                              > It looks to me a waste to have so many versions

                                              Well, no. Each distro is meant for different people with different
                                              tastes and habits (for example, some people don't like using GUI's for
                                              configuration, other people like using wizards for everything).
                                              Apart from the distro, there are also the Window Manager/Desktops (like
                                              KDE, Gnome, XFCE, etc.). Again, different desktops try to fill
                                              different needs.

                                              Linux isn't a "one size fits all" thing, which is very good IMO.

                                              Tip: if you want to get directions on how to do something with a GUI,
                                              you should note which distro and which desktop you are using, as every
                                              combination can be different. If you don't, people will just go by the
                                              safe bet and give the directions for the command line, which is the
                                              same everywhere :-)

                                              > - and to me.. A
                                              > newbie... I have no idea what to choose.

                                              Indeed, that is the price one pays for freedom of choice. Today most of
                                              the recommendations seem to be Mandrake or SuSe, although personally I
                                              never really like either (I am a Gentoo person), but to each his own-
                                              try a few, until you find the distro that is right for YOU.

                                              >
                                              > If possible, include hebrew support in that comparison.

                                              All major distros support Hebrew.
                                              ---
                                              Shoshannah Forbes
                                              http://www.xslf.com
                                            • YigalB
                                              ... GUI & Desktops can be driven from the same kernel. No need to have different kernel just for the color of the GUI or the prompt line. You don t choose your
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
                                                >> It looks to me a waste to have so many versions
                                                >
                                                >Well, no. Each distro is meant for different people with different
                                                >tastes and habits (for example, some people don't like using GUI's for
                                                >configuration, other people like using wizards for
                                                >everything). Apart from the distro, there are also the Window
                                                >Manager/Desktops (like
                                                >KDE, Gnome, XFCE, etc.). Again, different desktops try to fill
                                                >different needs.
                                                GUI & Desktops can be driven from the same kernel. No need to have
                                                different kernel just for the color of the GUI or the prompt line. You
                                                don't choose your car by the color or the radio brand. It's the other
                                                way arround. Same about wizards - they are so high level (like GUI)
                                                that I wonder why not to have all - and let user choose how to click the
                                                mouse, push a button or write a command line.


                                                >Linux isn't a "one size fits all" thing, which is very good IMO.
                                                What is "IMO" ?


                                                >Tip: if you want to get directions on how to do something with a GUI,
                                                >you should note which distro and which desktop you are using, as every
                                                >combination can be different. If you don't, people will just go by the
                                                >safe bet and give the directions for the command line, which is the
                                                >same everywhere :-)
                                                I have a GUI and I don't know what it's name (it doesn't say it when it
                                                powered up). I also have command line from window terminal - I need it
                                                to write scripts and better directories and files manipulation. I have
                                                no idea why does it matter.

                                                >
                                                >> - and to me.. A
                                                >> newbie... I have no idea what to choose.
                                                >Indeed, that is the price one pays for freedom of choice.
                                                >Today most of
                                                >the recommendations seem to be Mandrake or SuSe, although personally I
                                                >never really like either (I am a Gentoo person), but to each his own-
                                                >try a few, until you find the distro that is right for YOU.
                                                Doesn't make sense. You expect me to install all flavours and learn
                                                them? I have Fedora and I like it - I guess I would like them all.

                                                >> If possible, include hebrew support in that comparison.
                                                >All major distros support Hebrew.
                                                My Fedora's hebrew doesn't work - or better - I can't get it work. I
                                                couldn't get the answer why.
                                              • Shoshannah Forbes
                                                ... Most distros use more or less the same kernel. The difference is usually in the system management tools they give you: The package manager, the way you
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
                                                  On 05/11/2004, at 06:39, YigalB wrote:
                                                  > GUI & Desktops can be driven from the same kernel. No need to have
                                                  > different kernel just for the color of the GUI or the prompt line.

                                                  Most distros use more or less the same kernel. The difference is
                                                  usually in the system management tools they give you: The package
                                                  manager, the way you configure your settings etc.

                                                  > It's the other
                                                  > way arround. Same about wizards - they are so high level (like GUI)
                                                  > that I wonder why not to have all - and let user choose how to click
                                                  > the
                                                  > mouse, push a button or write a command line.

                                                  Most configurations are not in the kernel level anyway, and different
                                                  distros like to use different styles of configuration (even for the
                                                  files themselves).

                                                  Even if you do use wizards, there is more then one way to do it-
                                                  compare Mandrake and SuSe, which both have many any wizards, while both
                                                  are very different.

                                                  As a Gentoo user, I don't like or need wizards on my system. Why should
                                                  I have to use a system that uses them? From experience, editing the
                                                  same config file sometimes using the wizard and sometimes directly is a
                                                  sure way to get in truble (if it works at all- SuSe tends to ignore
                                                  changes done by hand to it's configuration). BTW, the same is true for
                                                  Windows, but you don't see it as much as many things can *only* be
                                                  configured via the GUI.

                                                  > What is "IMO" ?

                                                  IMO= In My Opinion

                                                  > I have a GUI and I don't know what it's name (it doesn't say it when it
                                                  > powered up).

                                                  Don't you get a splash screen after you log in?
                                                  Fedora by default uses Gnome, so unless you changed that (and you can),
                                                  that is probably what you are using.


                                                  > I also have command line from window terminal - I need it
                                                  > to write scripts and better directories and files manipulation. I have
                                                  > no idea why does it matter.

                                                  Why what matters? Which GUI you are using? It matter as things may be
                                                  in different locations and have different names in different GUI's.
                                                  Which is good. I can't stand the way KDE does things, and people who
                                                  like KDE can't stand the way Gnome or XFCE do things.
                                                  Again- Linux is not one size fits all :-)

                                                  > Doesn't make sense. You expect me to install all flavours and learn
                                                  > them?

                                                  No. I don't expect you to install "all" flavors. I expect you to
                                                  install a few until you find a one that you really like.

                                                  > I have Fedora and I like it - I guess I would like them all.

                                                  Why would you guess that? Many of them are rather different then
                                                  Fedora. Mandrake/SuSe have many more wizards then Fedora (and work
                                                  better with a KDE desktop, while Fedora works better with a Gnome
                                                  desktop). While Gentoo has no graphical wizards at all and install
                                                  everything from source code. Debian has wizards, but they tend to be
                                                  non-graphical.

                                                  So, you like Fedora. There is no reason to assume that you will like
                                                  Gentoo or debian the same :-)

                                                  So, in general- Linux has no one way to do things. This is many times
                                                  daunting to new users, who get lost in all the possibilities, However,
                                                  once you get used to it, it is really nice- to work with a system that
                                                  is tailored *exactly* to you, with no need to compromised on things.

                                                  > My Fedora's hebrew doesn't work - or better - I can't get it work. I
                                                  > couldn't get the answer why.

                                                  It was suggested here that you don't have your Hebrew keyboard
                                                  configured. As I don't have Fedora (although I will be upgrading my
                                                  sister's computer from Redhat 9 to Fedora 3 when it will come out), I
                                                  can't tell you a graphical way to set it up (but there should be one).
                                                  I do know that Fedora 2 uses X.org instead of XFree, so the file
                                                  mentioned before to edit would be xorg.conf



                                                  ---
                                                  Shoshannah Forbes
                                                  http://www.xslf.com
                                                • YigalB
                                                  ... Aha. You solved a mistery. ... No. My first task (and I made it!) was to elimintae the login window after power up. I am using it at home, so no need for
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
                                                    >> What is "IMO" ?
                                                    >
                                                    >IMO= In My Opinion
                                                    Aha. You solved a mistery.

                                                    >> I have a GUI and I don't know what it's name (it doesn't say it when
                                                    >> it powered up).
                                                    >
                                                    >Don't you get a splash screen after you log in?
                                                    No. My first task (and I made it!) was to elimintae the login window
                                                    after power up. I am using it at home, so no need for security. (and yes
                                                    - I am automatically logging as user, not as root).

                                                    >Fedora by default uses Gnome, so unless you changed that (and
                                                    >you can),
                                                    >that is probably what you are using.
                                                    So I guess it is Gnome.


                                                    >> I also have command line from window terminal - I need it
                                                    >> to write scripts and better directories and files
                                                    >manipulation. I have no idea why does it matter.
                                                    >
                                                    >Why what matters? Which GUI you are using? It matter as things may be
                                                    >in different locations and have different names in different GUI's.
                                                    >Which is good. I can't stand the way KDE does things, and people who
                                                    >like KDE can't stand the way Gnome or XFCE do things.
                                                    >Again- Linux is not one size fits all :-)
                                                    As far as I can see it, Linux users care too much about they GUI. I am
                                                    using Gnome because that what was installed when I pressed the "next" on
                                                    the wizzard, but now I feel proud enough to declare: my Gnome is bigger
                                                    !!!! Ha! Now I am a member of the Linux community


                                                    >> Doesn't make sense. You expect me to install all flavours and learn
                                                    >> them?
                                                    >
                                                    >No. I don't expect you to install "all" flavors. I expect you to
                                                    >install a few until you find a one that you really like.
                                                    Ok. Which ones you recommend me to test on my Fedora core 2? Can I have
                                                    few of them installed and switch between them?


                                                    >> My Fedora's hebrew doesn't work - or better - I can't get it work. I
                                                    >> couldn't get the answer why.
                                                    >
                                                    >It was suggested here that you don't have your Hebrew keyboard
                                                    >configured. As I don't have Fedora (although I will be upgrading my
                                                    >sister's computer from Redhat 9 to Fedora 3 when it will come out), I
                                                    >can't tell you a graphical way to set it up (but there should be one).
                                                    >I do know that Fedora 2 uses X.org instead of XFree, so the file
                                                    >mentioned before to edit would be xorg.conf
                                                    Ok - I give up. I will do it.. I will manually update this file and make
                                                    it work...
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