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Re: [Gnosticism2] Redemption

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  • Lynette
    Hi Cari, I ll reply, but only from my personal experience and beliefs. I find it confusing to use the word him and father . I realize that was the way the
    Message 1 of 41 , Jul 26, 2004
      Hi Cari,
       
      I'll reply, but only from my personal experience and beliefs.
       
      I find it confusing to use the word "him" and "father". I realize that was the way the texts were written. When I read passages that use terms that individualize god, then for me god loses all reality.
       
      This portion of the first passage however I relate to.:
       
      Their hope, toward which they strain, is straining (toward
      them): it is their image, the light in which there is no shadow.
       
      I think this is the heart of this passage.
       
      The searching we do, is actually within us. Our straining is straining towards us, and it is our image {the perfect light in which there is no shadow}
       
      Which fits into the second passage where it talks about acquaintance. Lack of acquaintance, is lack of knowing our inner divine spark. Which is what we seek.
       
      Lack of acquaintance is a slave:
      acquaintance is freedom.  If we become acquainted with the truth, we
      shall find the fruits of truth within us.  If we join with it, it
      will receive our fullness."

       
      The "lack of acquaintance" and the "fallen thing" are one in the same. Therefore in light of the conversation on "redemption", these are the things that we are redeemed of. However, taking into account that I do not believe in an external father, then this redemption for me is internal. Just as the second passage demonstrates.
       
       
      In my experience though, as I'm well aware how many different ways written words are interpreted. And not being familiar with the teachings of gnosticism or even the modern gnostic church, I cannot say if my thoughts run parallel with this group or not. I'm certainly curious to see what everybody else thinks.
       
      What about you Cari, what is your spin on the passages you provided?
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Sincerely,
      Lynette
       
      "To find the solution is to discover there  is no problem."
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 10:24 AM
      Subject: [Gnosticism2] Redemption

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Lynette <lynette_f@d...> wrote:
      > Thats fine. On a personal note, not related to this list at all.
      >
      > Alot of people are of the mind that such needs to happen. And to a
      point I'd agree, but not fully. And to say anymore than that, would
      certainly be getting into deep waters. And my tongue gets tied when
      trying to describe deeper aspects of the divine.
      >
      > Thanks for your reply though, and the one on other lists. I think
      I'll stay here and just read what is on hand.
      > Sincerely,
      > Lynette
      >
      > "To find the solution is to discover there  is no problem."
      >
      >
      >   > Hello Mike,
      >   >
      >   > would you say then that one can redeem one's self?
      >   > Sincerely,
      >   > Lynette
      >
      >   Not quite, the hand from the divine must reach down for you to
      have
      >   something to get hold of, so it is kind of a mutual thing, with
      the
      >   divine on one side and you on the other.  This is my opinion, not
      >   shared by all gnostic groups BTW.
      >
      >   Regards
      >   --
      >   Mike Leavitt  ac998@l...


      In light of this conversation, I'd like to throw out some passages
      that I find interesting.  I'd love to hear comments as to how others
      interpret these sections of scripture:

      First, from _The Gospel of Truth_:
      "This is the account of the good news about the discovery of the
      fullness, for those who strain toward the salvation coming from
      above.  Their hope, toward which they strain, is straining (toward
      them): it is their image, the light in which there is no shadow.  How
      truly at that time the fullness is on the way to coming!  The lack
      belonging to the realm of matter did not result from the infinity of
      the father as he came to bestow time upon the lack.  Of course, it
      could not properly be said that the incorruptible would `come' in
      such a way.  Rather, the father's depth is immense, and it is not
      with him that the thought of error resides.  It is a fallen (?)
      thing, that can easily be made upright through the discovery of him
      who came to that which he would bring back."

      Also, from _The Gospel According to Philip_:
      "Lack of [acquaintance] is the mother of [all evils].  Lack of
      acquaintance will lead to [death]: [for], those who existed as a
      result of the [lack of acquaintance] neither truly existed nor [do
      exist] nor will exist.  [...] will become perfect when the whole
      truth appears.  For like lack of acquaintance, truth reposes in
      itself while it is hidden.  But when it appears and is recognized, it
      is glorified insofar as it overpowers lack of acquaintance and
      error.  It bestows freedom.  The Word said, `If you know the truth,
      the truth will make you free.'  Lack of acquaintance is a slave:
      acquaintance is freedom.  If we become acquainted with the truth, we
      shall find the fruits of truth within us.  If we join with it, it
      will receive our fullness."


      Thanks,

      Cari





    • Lynette
      Hi Cari, Deleted the old posts from this email, to shorten it. Your earlier posts is as follows. Which prompted my reply.Hi, Lynette and all. Okay, I m back.
      Message 41 of 41 , Aug 1, 2004
        Hi Cari,
        Deleted the old posts from this email, to shorten it.
         
        Your earlier posts is as follows. Which prompted my reply.Hi, Lynette and all.  Okay, I'm back.  I think this thread got
        buried.  lol  I'll try a little resuscitation to answer your question
        (
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/message/9808 )
         
        {look below for my comments}

         



        Hi, Lynette and all.  Okay, I'm back.  I think this thread got
        buried.  lol  I'll try a little resuscitation to answer your question
        ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/message/9808 )
        about my thoughts, but I don't promise that I'll have as much success
        as Kerry did with his daughter's pet hamster. 

        Anyway, Lynette, you stated (#9808), "... taking into account that I
        do not believe in an external father, then this redemption for me is
        internal."

        Yes, this is an "internal" path.  This isn't about faith in a god
        entirely separate from us who literally in anthropomorphic style
        judges whether we should be redeemed or not.  But, on the other hand,
        we're also not talking about a solipsistic worldview either.  Nor do
        I believe the ancients who wrote this text were talking only about
        psychological integration, for instance.

        One thing that stands out for me is that the infinite father is
        something quite different from "error," and in fact, the father
        wouldn't even think in terms of "error."  The infinite "father" is
        incorruptible, does not mix with corruptibility.  So, what is this
        incorruptible spark "within" us?  Is it really "in" us in a temporal
        sense?  Certainly not physically, if incorruptible.  But indeed, we,
        like the ancients, are/were limited to trying to describe this in
        worldly terms.  So, "inner" and "outer" *locations*, though
        convenient symbolically, may not be viable *literally* when speaking
        of this unknown infinity.

        "If we join with it, it will receive our fullness."  Is this
        something we can do all on our own?  If so, does everyone succeed who
        attempts?  _The Gospel of Truth_ says, "It is a fallen (?) thing,
        that can easily be made upright through the discovery of him who came
        to that which he would bring back." "Him who came... "  This passage
        seems to agree with Mike's idea.  But I wouldn't get caught up with
        how this happens when considering an infinite Unknown, especially
        with any preconceptions from other religions. 

        _The Gospel of Philip_ passage seems to demonstrate that truth is
        hidden, waiting to be found.  We have the *fruits* of truth.

        The final passage of _The Gospel of Philip_ talks about "truth in the
        form of images":
        "Whoever receives that light will be invisible and cannot be
        restrained.  And nothing can harass such a person even while living
        in the world.  And, furthermore, when that person leaves this world,
        he or she has already received the truth in the form of images, and
        the world has already become the eternal realm.  For, to this person
        the eternal realm is fullness and, as such, is manifest to him or her
        alone -- hidden not in darkness and night but hidden in perfect day
        and holy light."

        Cari
         
        Hello, Cari, I appreciate you stating your understanding of the passages you mentioned above. We were talking about redemption weren't we? lol. I'll try and stick with that original thought. 
         
        You said,  
        Nor do I believe the ancients who wrote this text were talking only about
        psychological integration, for instance.
        I certainly agree with you. It is more than a psychological integration, it is also a physical acceptance, and emotional acceptance. {It being redemption}
         
        You also said,
        So, "inner" and "outer" *locations*, though
        convenient symbolically, may not be viable *literally* when speaking
        of this unknown infinity.
         
        And I agree with you with this as well. Just as you would use the term "father" though, lets not literally take the use of the word "internal" or "external" or "father" These are after all only terms that we have come to understand in a very shallow sense of the words.
         
        When one uses the word "father" or "mother", or even "external" and "internal" the idea of separateness is created. Knowing that separateness does not exist, it is still difficult to not use words that take on certain kinds of feelings, rather than using them literally. Does this make sense?
         
        You also mentioned,
        The infinite "father" is incorruptible, does not mix with corruptibility.
         
        There is no such thing as good/bad, corrupt or incorrupt. These are concepts. {Sorry, had to put that in there} Back to redemption though, only those that feel that there is badness in them {or the corrupt} Then they think that redemption must come from some other source then themselves. That is if you believe the incorruptible does not mix with the corrupt. Thus we are back to "external" or "internal" or in other terms, if they make more sense, "separate" or "togetherness". Shall we use those terms? Maybe they make more sense. For to me internal means togetherness in feeling, if not in meaning. Therefore your statement, "If we join with it, it will receive our fullness." Makes perfect sense to us both. However, it certainly is complicated to use words to describe things that are abstract in nature.
         
        Then you also stated,
        _The Gospel of Philip_ passage seems to demonstrate that truth is
        hidden, waiting to be found.  We have the *fruits* of truth.
        Certainly, I agree :)
         
        The final passage of _The Gospel of Philip_ talks about "truth in the
        form of images":
        "Whoever receives that light will be invisible and cannot be
        restrained.  And nothing can harass such a person even while living
        in the world.  And, furthermore, when that person leaves this world,
        he or she has already received the truth in the form of images, and
        the world has already become the eternal realm.  For, to this person
        the eternal realm is fullness and, as such, is manifest to him or her
        alone -- hidden not in darkness and night but hidden in perfect day
        and holy light."
         
        this passage would seem to answer your question, " If so, does everyone succeed who
        attempts?" 
         
         Unless one decides that there is an action that has to be done to be redeemed? The action being "receives". Which it is hard to do, hard to receive something that one already has.
         
        Anyways, thanks for your thoughts, Cari, I appreciate the time and effort you went into replying. I thought you had forgotten about the discussion.
         
        Lynette
         
         
         




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