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RE: [Gnosticism2] Re: Tangential musing

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  • Mary VanEsselstyn
    it is possiible to be pessimistic for the short term and optimistic for the long term. The gnostcs were not optimistic for the material world. What we need to
    Message 1 of 77 , Jul 6 9:26 AM
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      it is possiible to be pessimistic for the short term and optimistic for the
      long term. The gnostcs were not optimistic for the material world. What we
      need to do is look at the big picture rather than be influenced by
      materialism which may iinvolve letting go of some of our old conditoning and
      beliefs. For example our western culture has become advanced in many ways
      but is still very backward as far as our spritual lives and values are
      concerned, Most of us are very niave which we need to overcome.We are all
      shaped and formed by our culture no matter what our religious or political
      beliefs are. It s possible we are in some way seeking to transend our old
      selves inorder to find our true nature that is divine . all we can hope for
      i n our materialistic world is spiritual progress, not perfectiion as there
      are the powers of darkness that are working against us that may beyond our
      control, Ithink this is what Paul teaches in the new testiiment that wemay
      have to endure some sufferiing before we are able to overcome
      our carnal nature. Paul also taught in Rom8 that, Be not conformed to the
      customs of this world but be transformed by the renewing of our minds." Mary

      >From: lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      >Reply-To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
      >To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Tangential musing
      >Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:14:57 -0000
      >
    • pmcvflag
      Jana, Mike is in fact clergy in the EG, and we value his presence. As Cari states, the EG is a bit of a modern reworking of the Valentinians... with a slight
      Message 77 of 77 , Jul 19 9:12 PM
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        Jana, Mike is in fact clergy in the EG, and we value his presence. As
        Cari states, the EG is a bit of a modern reworking of the
        Valentinians... with a slight Jungian slant. So maybe I could make
        something a bit more clear about the historic Valentinians (and this
        is outside Mike's answers concerning his own church).

        The Valentinians were part of early Catholic/Orthodox church (before
        the schism between the two). Valentinians existed within that
        Catholic church but offered a continued "initiation" beyond
        that "orthodox" teaching. In other words, there were a
        true "esoteric" order that existed within an exoteric foundation.
        This should answer the question you had concerning bishops and
        priests, etc..

        You have to understand, even though it has been popular for modern
        sensationalist authors to build some kind of a fight between
        Gnosticism and religious orders, the fact is historically this is not
        something that happened until later.

        There were also other Gnostic groups that were NOT part of the
        Catholic (or even "Christian") outlines. For instance, Sethians were
        probably not originally Christian. Some scholors believe that John
        the Baptist was actually Sethian, but we can't know for sure
        (however, this could imply something about the teachings of Jesus if
        it is true... and if Jesus even ever historically existed. Gnosticism
        is not dependant on an actual historical Jesus though).

        However, let me point out to you that Gnostics were historically
        quite structured. In spite of the need by some New Age authors to
        make Gnostics some kind of spiritual anarchists, in fact these orders
        were initatory, and that means there was also a destinction made
        between levels of initation. One of the attacks that we see in the
        anti-Gnostic authors of the time was that Gnostics are a bit too
        elitist. I don't think that is completely true either, but that is
        not to say it is completely false.

        As we read historical Gnostic texts, such as those found in the Nag
        Hammadi library, we will see mention of those levels of initiation.
        If there are levels, there is structure... they simply go hand in
        hand.

        Ok, finally, your question in this last post... do Gnostics pray for
        intervention?

        This is an arguement that I don't think can be completely resolved.
        Part of that may be in that it depends on the sect. Truth is, if you
        really look through the Gnostic texts, you would be hard pressed to
        find an example. On the other hand, the people who wrote against
        Gnostics accuse them of making love potions, stomach ointments, and
        spells (spells are simply prayers) etc.. If you think about it, it
        does not seem logical that a Gnostic would do such things, since some
        of the things mentioned would really be against Gnostic beliefs.

        So, you already conceded that Gnostics probably would not pray to the
        first father (since it does not think or hear or consider anything
        from the field of time... including prayers), so then who would a
        Gnostic pray too? The Second father? The Sophia? The Logos? It
        depends on whether you take these to be literal beings... otherwise
        you are praying to aspects of yourself that connect you to the second
        father. I am trying to pooint out that the question you ask is not
        cut and dry, balck vs white, but that it also may entirely depend on
        the practice of the sect invloved. Many Gnostics probably don't
        believe in prayer, but some may.

        PMCV

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "janahooks" <janahooks@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > > > I guess you could call us neo-Valenitnians. I am the senior
        > Priest
        > > of
        > > > the Ecclesia Gnostica, which along with the Gnostic Society, is
        > the
        > > > parent body of http://www.gnosis.org/. My Bishop is Stephan
        > > Höeller,
        > > > who has written a number of books on Gnosticism.
        >
        > Mike, I had even told my husband that I thought you were a priest.
        > You have that patient air about you! I read about the sacraments
        on
        > the site, but I need to look at them again. Are they necessary to
        > achieve gnosis or salvation?
        >
        > Cari, Mike, pmcv, anyone,
        > Do gnostics believe that any being (I understand the First Father
        > does not) intervenes on our behalf? For instance, if one wanted to
        > pray for another's protection or health?
        >
        > jana
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