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Re: [Gnosticism2] Creativity... modern reflections on Gnosticism

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  • LESLIE BRYON
    I am not an expert but my hymble point of view is that Physics studies the Material World. The same world that the Gnostics considered evil not worth of being
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 5, 2004
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      I am not an expert  but my hymble point of view is that Physics studies the Material World. The same world that the Gnostics considered evil not worth of being in because their ideology was set to find an internal truth (espiritual...) and learned how to get back to the pleroma as perfect spiritual things.
      So creation of artistic objects (material things) were not in their scope.
      Again i am not an expert in relifion nor philosophy. I work in the mental health field so i am better with the psychological aspects...
      Leslie from South Florida

      pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      Ok, considering the recent topic dealing with optimism vs pessimism,
      I wan't to put a spin on it. What if by "optimism" we think of a sort
      of evolution of ideas. What I mean is, life has evolved (well, let's
      not get into that debate anyways)... technology has certainly evolved.

      Let's take the later example actually, I like it.

      If you take the vast majority of modern concepts in physics, atoms,
      heliocentric universe, the earth as a globe, etc., we can actually
      find ancient versions that predate them. Heck, in Alexandria we had
      Heron working with mechanics and magnatism, Eratosthenes calculating
      the circumfrence of the Earth, Aristarchus postulating the movements
      of the planets... including the Earth... around the Sun, Herophilus
      discovering the motor nerves, and the Platonic "Pythagorean" schools
      talking about the evolution of mankind from sea creatures as well as
      the breakup of matter into "atoms", with large amounts of space in
      between.

      There is a difference. Much of what the ancients knew was
      speculation, with very little practical application. It often came
      from a sort of thought experiment rather than any ability to test the
      ideas... and it was often mixed in with things we now know are wrong.

      Ok, but wait a second, I know this does not sound like what I stated
      in my title. Creativity..... I'm thinking here of evolution not as a
      change so much as a building. Part of that building is an epiphany,
      and a creation of something that is added to the previous model...
      which is not a complete rejection of the prior core. In music, true
      creativity is made by breaking rules intentionally, by knowing them
      and going past them.... or, even by working within the rules in such
      a way that an inspiration can be exibited.

      In the field of religion, the "rules" could be partly a matter of
      identity (though I don't mean to imply that is thier only function).

      My question then is this. Have any of you here been specifically
      inspired by Gnosticism, traditional Gnostic beliefs, into creating
      something?

      For those of you who don't know, brother Gerry created our excellent
      image for this club. I know there are some that have been inspired to
      write works of fiction, music, paintings, and the like. Do any of you
      here have anything of the sort to share? Or, if you don't want to
      share, how about the experience of inspiration itself? Does anyone
      have any stories to demonstrate that?

      While we have a multitude of Christian iconography, it really seems
      that we don't have much in the way of surviving Gnostic art! Any
      thoughts on that?

      PMCV

    • pmcvflag
      Ah, but Leslie.... what about the books they created, the mythology... are they not works of art? Art may use a material medium, but that does not mean it s
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 5, 2004
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        Ah, but Leslie.... what about the books they created, the
        mythology... are they not works of art? Art may use a material
        medium, but that does not mean it's function is material. There is an
        old saying concerning the person who looks at the finger of the man
        who is pointing. Our subject here is surely meaning, not medium.

        PMCV

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, LESLIE BRYON <BryonL@p...> wrote:
        > I am not an expert but my hymble point of view is that Physics
        studies the Material World. The same world that the Gnostics
        considered evil not worth of being in because their ideology was set
        to find an internal truth (espiritual...) and learned how to get back
        to the pleroma as perfect spiritual things.
        > So creation of artistic objects (material things) were not in their
        scope.
        > Again i am not an expert in relifion nor philosophy. I work in the
        mental health field so i am better with the psychological aspects...
        > Leslie from South Florida
        >
        > pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        > Ok, considering the recent topic dealing with optimism vs
        pessimism,
        > I wan't to put a spin on it. What if by "optimism" we think of a
        sort
        > of evolution of ideas. What I mean is, life has evolved (well,
        let's
        > not get into that debate anyways)... technology has certainly
        evolved.
        >
        > Let's take the later example actually, I like it.
        >
        > If you take the vast majority of modern concepts in physics, atoms,
        > heliocentric universe, the earth as a globe, etc., we can actually
        > find ancient versions that predate them. Heck, in Alexandria we had
        > Heron working with mechanics and magnatism, Eratosthenes
        calculating
        > the circumfrence of the Earth, Aristarchus postulating the
        movements
        > of the planets... including the Earth... around the Sun, Herophilus
        > discovering the motor nerves, and the Platonic "Pythagorean"
        schools
        > talking about the evolution of mankind from sea creatures as well
        as
        > the breakup of matter into "atoms", with large amounts of space in
        > between.
        >
        > There is a difference. Much of what the ancients knew was
        > speculation, with very little practical application. It often came
        > from a sort of thought experiment rather than any ability to test
        the
        > ideas... and it was often mixed in with things we now know are
        wrong.
        >
        > Ok, but wait a second, I know this does not sound like what I
        stated
        > in my title. Creativity..... I'm thinking here of evolution not as
        a
        > change so much as a building. Part of that building is an epiphany,
        > and a creation of something that is added to the previous model...
        > which is not a complete rejection of the prior core. In music, true
        > creativity is made by breaking rules intentionally, by knowing them
        > and going past them.... or, even by working within the rules in
        such
        > a way that an inspiration can be exibited.
        >
        > In the field of religion, the "rules" could be partly a matter of
        > identity (though I don't mean to imply that is thier only function).
        >
        > My question then is this. Have any of you here been specifically
        > inspired by Gnosticism, traditional Gnostic beliefs, into creating
        > something?
        >
        > For those of you who don't know, brother Gerry created our
        excellent
        > image for this club. I know there are some that have been inspired
        to
        > write works of fiction, music, paintings, and the like. Do any of
        you
        > here have anything of the sort to share? Or, if you don't want to
        > share, how about the experience of inspiration itself? Does anyone
        > have any stories to demonstrate that?
        >
        > While we have a multitude of Christian iconography, it really seems
        > that we don't have much in the way of surviving Gnostic art! Any
        > thoughts on that?
        >
        > PMCV
      • Mike Leavitt
        Hello pmcvflag ... Well you did see the :-), I guess. Actually most of the book deals with what he considers gnostic remains, but of course we know now many
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 5, 2004
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          Hello pmcvflag

          On 07/05/04, you wrote:

          > Hey, Mike. You are right that I only have a vague familiarity with
          > the book "The Gnostics and Thier Remains; Ancient and Medieval"... I
          > assume we are talking about the same book, by King. Thumbed through
          > and realized I wanted other sources. (maybe I should read it though
          > before I really say?)
          >
          > However, I did cover that base a bit. The thing I remember is that
          > much of the material dealt not with Gnosticism, but with Templars,
          > Mithraic remains, Serapis, Freemasons... etc. In other words, it
          > doesn't exactly answer my topic of art dealing with Gnosticism.

          Well you did see the :-), I guess. Actually most of the book deals
          with what he considers gnostic remains, but of course we know now
          many were Mithraic, neo-Platonic, etc., but still perhaps originally
          gnostic in origin. For its day it is a good book. None the less,
          the shadow of the third century as Alvin Boyd Kuhn calls it,
          destroyed most gnostic art, especially the big stuff. As King
          himself points out, the gems were saved because they were valuable.
          The book is worth reading, especially if you know enough to
          critically appraise it.

          Regards
          --
          Mike Leavitt ac998@...
        • pmcvflag
          Cool, well Mike... are there any particular plates in the book that you find especially interesting that you could share with us? Still, I do hope that
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 5, 2004
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            Cool, well Mike... are there any particular plates in the book that
            you find especially interesting that you could share with us?

            Still, I do hope that somebody here would also share some of thier
            own work.

            PMCV

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
            > Hello pmcvflag
            >
            > On 07/05/04, you wrote:
            >
            > > Hey, Mike. You are right that I only have a vague familiarity with
            > > the book "The Gnostics and Thier Remains; Ancient and
            Medieval"... I
            > > assume we are talking about the same book, by King. Thumbed
            through
            > > and realized I wanted other sources. (maybe I should read it
            though
            > > before I really say?)
            > >
            > > However, I did cover that base a bit. The thing I remember is
            that
            > > much of the material dealt not with Gnosticism, but with Templars,
            > > Mithraic remains, Serapis, Freemasons... etc. In other words, it
            > > doesn't exactly answer my topic of art dealing with Gnosticism.
            >
            > Well you did see the :-), I guess. Actually most of the book deals
            > with what he considers gnostic remains, but of course we know now
            > many were Mithraic, neo-Platonic, etc., but still perhaps originally
            > gnostic in origin. For its day it is a good book. None the less,
            > the shadow of the third century as Alvin Boyd Kuhn calls it,
            > destroyed most gnostic art, especially the big stuff. As King
            > himself points out, the gems were saved because they were valuable.
            > The book is worth reading, especially if you know enough to
            > critically appraise it.
            >
            > Regards
            > --
            > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
          • Mike Leavitt
            Hello pmcvflag ... My memory of it is almost all in text small illustrations. There might be a plate or two, but the only one I remember is a fairly large one
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 5, 2004
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              Hello pmcvflag

              On 07/06/04, you wrote:

              > Cool, well Mike... are there any particular plates in the book that
              > you find especially interesting that you could share with us?
              >
              > Still, I do hope that somebody here would also share some of thier
              > own work.
              >
              > PMCV

              My memory of it is almost all in text small illustrations. There
              might be a plate or two, but the only one I remember is a fairly
              large one of Abraxus, of dubious origin. I really don't know where
              the book is right now, alas, my library has been a shambles for
              years, and my back to bad to move it and reshelve it.

              Regards
              --
              Mike Leavitt ac998@...
            • lady_caritas
              ... How about poetry, too? I know there are bound to be some poets out there. No, you don t have to be a professional artist, poet, etc. Heck, I remember
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 6, 2004
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                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > Cool, well Mike... are there any particular plates in the book that
                > you find especially interesting that you could share with us?
                >
                > Still, I do hope that somebody here would also share some of thier
                > own work.
                >
                > PMCV


                How about poetry, too? I know there are bound to be some poets out
                there. No, you don't have to be a professional artist, poet, etc.
                Heck, I remember Terje and I posting a few poems a while back.
                Unfortunately, those posts vanished in the still unsolved mystery of
                that section of our "lost" archives.

                Also, PMCV, I know what a devoted Blake fan you are. Perhaps, if
                you're so inclined at some point, you (and others) could share some
                of your insights about Blake regarding things Gnostic.


                Cari
              • Mike Leavitt
                Hello lady_caritas ... Do you know the time frame on that, I may have Terje s post archived, I have stuff of his going back to 1997. Regards -- Mike Leavitt
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 6, 2004
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                  Hello lady_caritas

                  On 07/06/04, you wrote:

                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  >> Cool, well Mike... are there any particular plates in the book that
                  >> you find especially interesting that you could share with us?
                  >>
                  >> Still, I do hope that somebody here would also share some of thier
                  >> own work.
                  >>
                  >> PMCV
                  >
                  >
                  > How about poetry, too? I know there are bound to be some poets out
                  > there. No, you don't have to be a professional artist, poet, etc.
                  > Heck, I remember Terje and I posting a few poems a while back.
                  > Unfortunately, those posts vanished in the still unsolved mystery of
                  > that section of our "lost" archives.
                  >
                  > Also, PMCV, I know what a devoted Blake fan you are. Perhaps, if
                  > you're so inclined at some point, you (and others) could share some
                  > of your insights about Blake regarding things Gnostic.
                  >
                  >
                  > Cari

                  Do you know the time frame on that, I may have Terje's post archived,
                  I have stuff of his going back to 1997.

                  Regards
                  --
                  Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                • lady_caritas
                  ... that ... thier ... of ... some ... archived, ... Hi, Mike. Gosh, I don t remember exactly, but it might have been in the latter half of 2001 or soon
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 6, 2004
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                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                    > Hello lady_caritas
                    >
                    > On 07/06/04, you wrote:
                    >
                    > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > >> Cool, well Mike... are there any particular plates in the book
                    that
                    > >> you find especially interesting that you could share with us?
                    > >>
                    > >> Still, I do hope that somebody here would also share some of
                    thier
                    > >> own work.
                    > >>
                    > >> PMCV
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > How about poetry, too? I know there are bound to be some poets out
                    > > there. No, you don't have to be a professional artist, poet, etc.
                    > > Heck, I remember Terje and I posting a few poems a while back.
                    > > Unfortunately, those posts vanished in the still unsolved mystery
                    of
                    > > that section of our "lost" archives.
                    > >
                    > > Also, PMCV, I know what a devoted Blake fan you are. Perhaps, if
                    > > you're so inclined at some point, you (and others) could share
                    some
                    > > of your insights about Blake regarding things Gnostic.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Cari
                    >
                    > Do you know the time frame on that, I may have Terje's post
                    archived,
                    > I have stuff of his going back to 1997.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    > --
                    > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...

                    Hi, Mike. Gosh, I don't remember exactly, but it might have been in
                    the latter half of 2001 or soon thereafter. It was back when we were
                    still in the Yahoo club format before switching to groups. Actually,
                    Terje posted more poems to another club which doesn't exist anymore.
                    He may have some archived himself, too.

                    Do you write poetry, Mike?

                    Thanks,
                    Cari
                  • Mike Leavitt
                    Hello lady_caritas ... I did some when I was younger, but none of it was good enough to keep. Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 6, 2004
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                      Hello lady_caritas

                      On 07/07/04, you wrote:

                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                      >> Hello lady_caritas
                      >>
                      >> On 07/06/04, you wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      >>>> Cool, well Mike... are there any particular plates in the book
                      > that
                      >>>> you find especially interesting that you could share with us?
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Still, I do hope that somebody here would also share some of
                      > thier
                      >>>> own work.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> PMCV
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > How about poetry, too? I know there are bound to be some poets
                      >> > out there. No, you don't have to be a professional artist, poet,
                      >> > etc. Heck, I remember Terje and I posting a few poems a while
                      >> > back. Unfortunately, those posts vanished in the still unsolved
                      >> > mystery
                      > of
                      >> > that section of our "lost" archives.
                      >> >
                      >> > Also, PMCV, I know what a devoted Blake fan you are. Perhaps, if
                      >> > you're so inclined at some point, you (and others) could share
                      > some
                      >>> of your insights about Blake regarding things Gnostic.
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> Cari
                      >>
                      >> Do you know the time frame on that, I may have Terje's post
                      > archived,
                      >> I have stuff of his going back to 1997.
                      >>
                      >> Regards
                      >> --
                      >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                      >
                      > Hi, Mike. Gosh, I don't remember exactly, but it might have been in
                      > the latter half of 2001 or soon thereafter. It was back when we were
                      > still in the Yahoo club format before switching to groups. Actually,
                      > Terje posted more poems to another club which doesn't exist anymore.
                      > He may have some archived himself, too.
                      >
                      > Do you write poetry, Mike?
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Cari

                      I did some when I was younger, but none of it was good enough to keep.

                      Regards
                      --
                      Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                    • Mike Leavitt
                      Hello lady_caritas ... P.S. The only poem of his I found in that time frame was a poem about Ash Wednesday to the French Gnostic Church list, I ll have to dig
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 6, 2004
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                        Hello lady_caritas

                        On 07/07/04, you wrote:

                        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                        >> Hello lady_caritas
                        >>
                        >> On 07/06/04, you wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        >>>> Cool, well Mike... are there any particular plates in the book
                        > that
                        >>>> you find especially interesting that you could share with us?
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Still, I do hope that somebody here would also share some of
                        > thier
                        >>>> own work.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> PMCV
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> > How about poetry, too? I know there are bound to be some poets
                        >> > out there. No, you don't have to be a professional artist, poet,
                        >> > etc. Heck, I remember Terje and I posting a few poems a while
                        >> > back. Unfortunately, those posts vanished in the still unsolved
                        >> > mystery
                        > of
                        >> > that section of our "lost" archives.
                        >> >
                        >> > Also, PMCV, I know what a devoted Blake fan you are. Perhaps, if
                        >> > you're so inclined at some point, you (and others) could share
                        > some
                        >>> of your insights about Blake regarding things Gnostic.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Cari
                        >>
                        >> Do you know the time frame on that, I may have Terje's post
                        > archived,
                        >> I have stuff of his going back to 1997.
                        >>
                        >> Regards
                        >> --
                        >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                        >
                        > Hi, Mike. Gosh, I don't remember exactly, but it might have been in
                        > the latter half of 2001 or soon thereafter. It was back when we were
                        > still in the Yahoo club format before switching to groups. Actually,
                        > Terje posted more poems to another club which doesn't exist anymore.
                        > He may have some archived himself, too.
                        >
                        > Do you write poetry, Mike?
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Cari

                        P.S. The only poem of his I found in that time frame was a poem about
                        Ash Wednesday to the French Gnostic Church list, I'll have to dig
                        some more.

                        Regards
                        --
                        Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                      • pmcvflag
                        Cari said.... Hi, Mike. Gosh, I don t remember exactly, but it might have been in the latter half of 2001 or soon thereafter. It was back when we were still
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 6, 2004
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                          Cari said....

                          "Hi, Mike. Gosh, I don't remember exactly, but it might have been in
                          the latter half of 2001 or soon thereafter. It was back when we were
                          still in the Yahoo club format before switching to groups. Actually,
                          Terje posted more poems to another club which doesn't exist anymore.
                          He may have some archived himself, too.

                          Do you write poetry, Mike?"

                          I would love to hear some poetry from Mike too!!!

                          In case anyone is curious, Lady Cari is talking about a group I used
                          to run called "PhiloSophia" that delt with esoteric romance... but
                          Yahoo accidentally erased it recently. Specifically, the club delt
                          with troubadours, Dante, but also erotic undertones in some Gnostic
                          texts. Neoplatonic romance is perhaps a better term, since it was
                          from the viewpoint of a specific tradition that had Platonic
                          influence just as Gnosticism does. Anyways, many member here were
                          also over there. I am not sure if I will restart it though.

                          I have the feeling that people here may be waiting for somebody to
                          post first... so I will. Here is one of my poems, and perhaps I will
                          post some of my music here as well (I can't seem to find it right
                          now). Ok, so here I go........

                          Before you start reading, I am not always just an academician... this
                          is my view of esoteric love.... Philo Sophia... step back... take a
                          breath... read slowly...


                          -Can it be light, that guides a heart,
                          unto a face so dead
                          -To it's OWN heart, obsequious,
                          to nothing Eros said
                          -Or darkness be, since I gain not,
                          your mercy, pity, joy
                          -And fail to turn, your thoughts my way,
                          through all at my employ

                          How, love, can I make you understand
                          With nothing more than words to say I burn
                          My heaven and my hell is in your hand
                          Towards it's light, your face, my heart does turn.
                          My eyes accursed brought to me all this pain
                          Your hands, your words, your movements, are my grace.
                          Yet I can't hope your love on me will rain
                          When every flower turns toward your face.


                          PMCV (Aka ATroubadour)
                        • lady_caritas
                          ... And so you did, PMCV, as well as did Jason. Quite wonderful! Thank you. So, okay, I ll post something, and I surely hope more members will, too. I found
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 7, 2004
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                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                            > I have the feeling that people here may be waiting for somebody to
                            > post first... so I will.


                            And so you did, PMCV, as well as did Jason. Quite wonderful! Thank
                            you.

                            So, okay, I'll post something, and I surely hope more members will,
                            too. I found a poem of mine in a file from that time period I
                            mentioned, Mike, although unfortunately I don't have Terje's. As I
                            recall, there was a new member at that time who was interested in
                            discussing truth, or maybe Truth. ;-) So followed some fun poetry
                            posts about that aeon.
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            "Aletheia Dances"

                            Aletheia, Spirit Maiden of Clarity,
                            Reveal yourself to our blind eyes
                            Which seek but phantoms of form familiar
                            So foolishly dressing you in disguise.

                            Though fruitless is our human chase
                            As we fail to fathom immortality,
                            The essence of your pure perfume
                            Entices us to unveil your Reality.

                            Oh, permit us a glimpse of your genuine curve,
                            Even though your quintessence evades us.
                            Aletheia, Beloved Spirit of Trueness,
                            Indulge us with your beatific dances!
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                            Oh, and since PMCV mentioned PhiloSophia and eros, I'll add one I
                            posted at that club a while back.
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            "Eros"

                            Arms reaching, fingertips extended,
                            Legs outstretched, toes burrowed in earth.

                            Eros, embrace me,
                            Break my chains.

                            Unsheathe this garment,
                            Let me fly.

                            Lift me from this prison,
                            Desire, free me.

                            Kiss me with your fragrant Secret,
                            Let me find repose.
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          • Mike Leavitt
                            Hello lady_caritas ... A bit more serious than no. 2. Angelius Silesius as translated by Max Heindel: Though Christ a thousand times is Bethlehem be born,
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 8, 2004
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                              Hello lady_caritas

                              On 07/08/04, you wrote:

                              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> I have the feeling that people here may be waiting for somebody to
                              >> post first... so I will.
                              >
                              >
                              > And so you did, PMCV, as well as did Jason. Quite wonderful! Thank
                              > you.
                              >
                              > So, okay, I'll post something, and I surely hope more members will,
                              > too. I found a poem of mine in a file from that time period I
                              > mentioned, Mike, although unfortunately I don't have Terje's. As I
                              > recall, there was a new member at that time who was interested in
                              > discussing truth, or maybe Truth. ;-) So followed some fun poetry
                              > posts about that aeon.
                              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              > "Aletheia Dances"

                              A bit more serious than no. 2. Angelius Silesius as translated by Max
                              Heindel:

                              Though Christ a thousand times is Bethlehem be born,
                              Unless within thy heart,
                              Thy soul will be forlorn.

                              The cross on Golgotha thou lookest to in vein,
                              Unless within thy heart,
                              It be set up again.

                              Regards
                              --
                              Mike Leavitt ac998@...
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