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Re: Who (or what) is "THE DEVIL"?/Great Fall of the Spirits

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  • pmcvflag
    You missed the point there Fred. I am pointing out that what is and what is not dualist is not so... well... black and white. The term Dualist has rather
    Message 1 of 74 , Jun 2, 2004
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      You missed the point there Fred. I am pointing out that what is and
      what is not "dualist" is not so... well... black and white. The
      term "Dualist" has rather overstated connotations of extremism (that
      even academicians fall victim too). Depending on just how literal we
      wish to be, about any philosophy that recognizes any contrast
      is "dualist" but when we point it out it holds that philosophy up as
      something a bit out of the ordinary.

      The term "Dualism" is so easily used as rhetoric that unless it is an
      explicit case like that we see in Manichaean belief, or Zoroastrian,
      it is something that I am well justified in waffling on a bit... and
      in the case of Plato and Gnosticism it is up to debate, as I will
      explain. As I previously mentioned, Williams brings this subject up,
      and fairly well presents that the dichotomy between matter and spirit
      may not be so severely stated in all forms of Gnosticism, just as it
      is not in Plato (comparitively speaking, of course).

      Let me also point out that we have not even gone into the debate over
      whether Plato continued to maintain the doctrin of "Forms", which is
      bitter in the academic community and has relevence to his "dualism"
      (it often boils down to just when the Timeaus is dated, and that has
      not been resolved as far as I know)... if you say "Plato was a
      dualist" one could say back to you "at which period in his works are
      you refering to?" Then we would get into a very complex debate that
      has no place here.

      Just as you pointed out that there are different TYPES of dualism,
      there are also different LEVELS. You may choose to quibble that it is
      still dualist, technically, but then so is nearly everyone but severe
      pantheists and solipsists, and the like. (This, BTW is a good
      arguement against the belief that Gnostics were pantheists... they
      were not)

      I will remain uncomfortable using that word unless it is to very
      explicit examples, unless you concede to a qualifier that we don't
      necessarily mean anything so severe as what is likely to be jumping
      into the head of the readers here (considering it is exactly the
      extreme connotations that so many polemicists are trying to
      capitalize on by calling Gnostics "Dualists").

      Is that rigorous enough for you?

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      >
      > >Plato makes a tripartite division, between the body, the mind, and
      > > the pure intellect... that is not really dualist.
      >
      > PMCV, are you kidding me? Come on, give me a break! Plato is NOT a
      > dualist because of the concept of the tripartite soul!? How about a
      > little more rigor here?
    • George Harvey
      ... a ... Gnostic ... Hi Mike, Thank you. I suspected she was wrong but didn t know for sure. George
      Message 74 of 74 , Jun 16, 2004
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
        > Hello George
        >
        > On 06/16/04, you wrote:
        >
        > > Hi Mike,
        > > Someone on my list said modern Gnostic churches do not allow women
        > > to be priests. Is that true of your church?
        > >
        > > George
        >
        > Stephan ordained Rosa Miller to the priesthood, and consecrated her
        a
        > bishop. We currently have two active women priests, and an active
        > woman deacon or three, I can't keep up with it. The short answer is
        > no it is not true of our church, nor is it true of the French
        Gnostic
        > Church, our confederate. It may be true of some more traditionally
        > Catholic Gnostic churches, milage may vary. Years ago I asked an
        > old Liberal Catholic Priest (they have no women in orders to this
        > day), "how can you deny one of the sacraments to half the human
        > race." He was stunned by the question, and said that was the only
        > thing anyone had said to him that gave him doubts about the all male
        > clergy.
        >
        > Regards
        > --
        > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...

        Hi Mike,
        Thank you. I suspected she was wrong but didn't know for sure.

        George
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